From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Jun 12 21:20:13 2001 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA18656 for ; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 21:20:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id VAA04252 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 21:19:17 -0500 Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 21:19:17 -0500 Message-Id: <200106130219.VAA04252@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #2261 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, June 12 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2261 In this digest: Re: IN> Another Take of Novalis (story) Re: IN> Another Take of Novalis (story) IN> Superior limits Re: IN> Another Take of Novalis (story) Re: IN> Another Take of Novalis (story) Re: IN> Another Take of Novalis (story) Re: IN> Superior limits Re: IN> Another Take of Novalis (story) IN> Dinosaurs! Re: IN> Superior limits Re: IN> Dinosaurs! Re: IN> Dinosaurs! Re: IN> Talents Re: IN> Superior limits (No Canon!) Re: IN> Superior limits Re: IN> Superior limits Re: IN> Dinosaurs! Re: IN> Talents Re: IN> Dinosaurs! Re: IN> Dinosaurs! Re: IN> Dinosaurs! IN> IN Style Fiction (was: Re: Convoluted) Re: IN> Superior limits (No Canon!) Re: IN> Dinosaurs! Re: IN> Superior limits (No Canon!) Re: IN> IN Style Fiction (was: Re: Convoluted) Re: IN> IN Style Fiction (was: Re: Convoluted) Re: IN> Superior limits (No Canon!) Re: IN> Superior limits (No Canon!) IN> Re: Another Take on Novalis IN> Re: A Window into Fate IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2260 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 11:44:02 -0700 From: Daiv Subject: Re: IN> Another Take of Novalis (story) Michael Cleveland wrote: > Novalis looked at Dominic for a second, then started chuckling and putting > the cards away. "Whatever you say, Dominic. Whatever you say." Heh. That was nice... I like that one a lot. Personally, I am a little tired of seeing the "Novalis is Peaceful, therefore weak, therefore must and will fall" threads and stories. I think that IN is a more complex game than that, and that each of the major characters within it should be shown in all their individual glory. To say that the Peaceful must fall for the War to be won simplifies things too much. I am thinking of drawing a parallel from real life pacifists such as Ghandi or Dr. Martin Luther King. To the best of my knowledge, neither of them ever 'fell' (i.e., resorted to violence to accomplish their stated goals (Note, I will state right now i am not a student of history, and could be wrong. However, the list is not the place to discuss the respective politics of these men.)); They were just killed. I suspect that Novalis would be a lot harder to kill. And more to the point, I think that she would die, permanently, and forever, before she abandoned her word. So. As i say, I like this one. Speaking as a pacifist, i personally would rather die than abandon my principles; Novalis, having a lot more practice at this than i do, embodies the same principle. Okay. enough gushing. There is a problem with that story... There was so much Disturbance going on, Someone should have noticed it, and investigated. Granted, you could say that the four principles involved in the argument had other things on their minds, and were distracted. But Dominic, I would think, should have at least sent someone to investigate, or else have multi tasked and done it himself. Personally, I like image of Dominic giving Novalis the High Five (or whatever the celestial equivalent is; High wing?) for a job well done. It's the sort of thing that would be talked about for a very long time afterwards. -Daiv, tech writer in service to Coffee, searching for a superior. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 14:56:03 -0400 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> Another Take of Novalis (story) Excellent story. While many people believe that peaceful solutions *are* possible in tense, even violent situations, most of them go on faith and trust and forget that those solutions frequently require significant advance planning. Let She who desires Peace plot relentlessly, and play the Game better than everyone else. :^) William ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 12:00:23 -0700 From: Daiv Subject: IN> Superior limits Okay, so we have established for servitors, the only attunements available are those which are native to either the Word they are serving, or the band they are in. So, a Kyriotate of Fire can take the Kyriotate of Animals attunement, and the Malakite of Fire attunement (a combination that give a whole new meaning to Firefly) but not the Seraph of destiny attunement. What about Superiors? Obviously, they have access to all that attunements that they hand out. But what about the attunements of other Superiors? Jordi, for example, is a Kyriotate. Can he get the Offanite of the Wind attunement? I would suspect not, personally, but maybe i am missing something. -Daiv, tech writer in service to Coffee, searching for a superior. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 14:15:39 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Another Take of Novalis (story) From: "Michael Cleveland" > > Novalis looked at Dominic for a second, then started chuckling and putting > the cards away. "Whatever you say, Dominic. Whatever you say." An excellent portrayal of both Novalis and Dominic, I thought. Well done. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 14:26:38 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Another Take of Novalis (story) From: "Daiv" > > To the best of my > knowledge, neither of them ever 'fell' (i.e., resorted to > violence to accomplish their stated goals In the context of Novalis, whether resorting to violence would ever qualify as having "fell" depends on how you interpret the "if pressed far enough, she will show her thorns" statement in her writeup. While I can't see Novalis resorting to violence in any but the most extreme of circumstances, I can't see her ruling it out in every circumstance without exception. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 12:50:15 -0700 From: Daiv Subject: Re: IN> Another Take of Novalis (story) Prodigal wrote: > > From: "Daiv" > > > > To the best of my > > knowledge, neither of them ever 'fell' (i.e., resorted to > > violence to accomplish their stated goals > > In the context of Novalis, whether resorting to violence would ever qualify > as having "fell" depends on how you interpret the "if pressed far enough, > she will show her thorns" statement in her writeup. > > While I can't see Novalis resorting to violence in any but the most extreme > of circumstances, I can't see her ruling it out in every circumstance > without exception. You are right... i was reacting to the previously posted stories wherein "Novalis resorts to Violence and therefore falls" than I the write up; that was a mistake on my part, for which I appreciate the correction. However, I stand by the idea that Novalis would sooner be destroyed than abandon her word. And, for her, to fall would be abandoning her word (note, this is only my opinion, not intrinsically supported by canon). On a related note, i recall seeing a great documentary, years ago, that studied the competitive nature of plants; by using time lapse photography, it showed how vicious plants really are; it is only because it takes place on a completely different time scale than we are used to, the it's difficult to notice. And, of course, the methods used are totally different. No less effective, of course; survival of the fittest applies to plant life as well as animal life. huh... Angel of Evolution? Would that be a Superior level word? In any case, it does lend itself to the idea that demons, would find themselves trying to weaken it by promoting Creationism... :=] -Daiv, Tech writer in service to Coffee, searching for a superior. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 16:03:08 -0400 From: "S.D." Subject: Re: IN> Superior limits > What about Superiors? Obviously, they have access to all that >attunements that they hand out. But what about the attunements >of other Superiors? > Jordi, for example, is a Kyriotate. Can he get the Offanite of >the Wind attunement? I would suspect not, personally, but maybe >i am missing something. The way I see it, not unless he also has Yves' Master distinction for Ofanim. Or if he started out as a Kyriotate of Wind, got his Word, and became an Archangel. Which offers some *interesting* possibilities for one tiny part of the game...namely, Falling/Redeeming. As most people probably know, going Outcast/Renegade means you lose all Rites pertaining to your Superior and cannot return to the celestial plane. Falling/Redeeming means you lose Attunements as well. I attributed that, originally, to the change of Band/Choir and Word. Then I found out that angels/demons who serve one Word may take Attunements for their Choir/Band from another word. So I thought it must be the change in *resonance* that removes those Attunements. Then I read page 149 of the core rulebook. "If a Lilim truly repents...she does not become any part of any angelic Choir. There is none corresponding to her Band. She remains a daughter of Lilith, keeping...the abilities that are basic to the Lilim." So a Bright Lilim is still a Lilim. They still have the same resonance. Which means, in essence, that Bright Lilim *retain any Lilim Band attunements they held before Redeeming.* And, in my opinion, there is nothing inherently *wrong* in using an ability one possesses, so long as it does not directly affect another being or oneself negatively. This is why an angel becomes heavily dissonant by using the corresponding Band's resonance - every one of them negatively affects another being. But, well, let's look at some of the Lilim Attunements. LUST: auto-success resonance roll w/ physical contact the GAME: may identify Lilim and their dissonance with a Perception roll FATE: "see Discord in the eyes of others", add Cel Forces to invoking Geases the MEDIA: free Role at level/status equal to Corp Forces, 'fan' servant worth points equal to twice Cel Forces TECHNOLOGY: add Cel Forces to Computer Operation skill roll and to use a resonance on "someone of a scientific or technological bent" None of these, except possibly the second halves of the Fate and Technology attunements, are actively negative. The Media attunement, for one, would be hard to lose, as would part of the Gamester benefit (free Role and character points for that Role/skills for it.) The Lust attunement is probably one of the most useful for Lilim. Dominic would *love* a Bright who had picked up the Game and Fate attunements (yes, I know his Ofanim can 'hear' Discord and his Malakim sense dissonance. Neither one can automatically detect *any* demon - unless the Malakite gets lucky with a check of 6 and a Balseraph - and Nikki can't copy the Geas-benefit, as far as I know.) Jean might be interested in Lilim with the Technology attunement, although it's a slight risk - easier to invoke Geases on Lightning servitors. Michael and Eli would probably be the greatest advocates of ignoring Lilim who use diabolical attunements to Heaven's benefit - it adds wonderfully to the element of surprise, and it's just plain *dumb* not to use anything that comes to hand if you need a weapon. (See Eli's Malakite Attunement. Need I say more?) Which also begs the question, does this apply to, say, Elohim/Habbalah? It's effectively the same, except Habbalah can force emotions on others. Or how about Kyriotates/Shedim? Again, the same, except Shedim are limited to one host. Cherubim and Djinn are close as well, except for the shorter duration on one side and inability to harm on the other. And if it doesn't, does that mean the inability to use old Attunements is A: a *psychological* thing, and therefore can be *removed*? B: orders of Superiors, in case it increases Word-power for the other side (and it probably doesn't...) And *that* offers more possibilities, when you look at the Superiors. Particularly Princes. Kobal would probably love the expression on his old Superior's face if he used one of their Attunements. Andrealphus might be able to access all the abilities from the Word of Love (if he chose to.) IIRC, Magog Fell from Stone, and may well have kept his old abilities. And former-demon Archangels (if they exist in your game) may find it interesting to attack Hell with the abilities Hell gave them... (Of course, I'd bet all of this is about as noncanon as you get. But it provides some *interesting* ideas, don't you think? ^_^) ~S.D. Ryukage http://fly.to/sd_nexus ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Her silhouette leans and says "And Lo, for the Earth was empty of form, and void. "And Darkness was all over the face of the Deep. "And We said: "Look at that fucker Dance." David Foster Wallace, 'Infinite Jest' ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 13:00:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Another Take of Novalis (story) - --- Michael Cleveland wrote: >"Yes. Bridge." >The Song of Celestial Locations is known both for its >ability to create a Temporary Tether to the domain of >the singer, and for its nickname - The song of >Bridges. Asmodeus would normally have remembered that >and taken it for a particularly bad joke, Perfectly justifiably: it _is_ a particularly bad joke. Indeed, it is _so_ bad that I wish that I had come up with it myself. I liked this one: after all, it's not Novalis' fault that her opponent has deliberately warped himself so that he would actually take damage from the most wonderful, beautiful stuff in the universe... Moe ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 06/05/01(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 13:03:57 -0700 From: Daiv Subject: IN> Dinosaurs! So, here's the thing. In IN, there is a God. But the seven days to creation story is metaphor rather than Truth. In IN, dinosaurs lived (and lets be honest here; can you see a Steve Jackson Game where dinosaurs did not ever exist? I think not (note, Steve Jackson, the man himself, likes Dinosaurs)). So. How about a Really OLD servant of Jordi, whose word is Dinosaurs? He ruled the Earth for a long time. He was struck down, but he adapted and survived. Probably spent a few million years in service to Stone. But now, in the last few centuries, he has started making a comeback. And there are rumors. Nothing definite, nothing proven. But there are those who swear, they have seen him talking to servants of Jean, who have an interest in Biotechnology. Specifically, cloning, and the preservation and replication of extinct species. Note, of course, that Malakites of Jordi are particularly attuned to 'wolves, dogs, /and other pack animals/. Recent discoveries have determined that Velociraptors were pack hunters. And the idea that maybe, just maybe, he could be get away with a Velociraptor role/vessel is enough to make the most hard hearted Smile. IN: Jurassic Park. -Daiv, Tech Writer in service to Coffee, in search of a superior. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 13:40:35 -0700 From: Kish Subject: Re: IN> Superior limits "S.D." wrote: > So a Bright Lilim is still a Lilim. They still have the same resonance. Which means, in essence, that Bright Lilim *retain any Lilim Band attunements they held before Redeeming.* Only if those attunements are dependent on the Resonance. An angel is not the same thing as a demon--and perhaps, if the Lilim can walk about in the Light of Heaven with no damage and has wings in its celestial form instead of horns, then it cannot have demonic attunements. > Which also begs the question, does this apply to, say, Elohim/Habbalah? It's effectively the same, except Habbalah can force emotions on others. Or how about Kyriotates/Shedim? Again, the same, except Shedim are limited to one host. Cherubim and Djinn are close as well, except for the shorter duration on one side and inability to harm on the other. And if it doesn't, does that mean the inability to use old Attunements is > A: a *psychological* thing, and therefore can be *removed*? > B: orders of Superiors, in case it increases Word-power for the other side > (and it probably doesn't...) C: Falling or Redeeming is a state change that strips away all attunements from the other side. - -- Kish ICQ# 28085879 AIM Kish K M ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 13:41:48 -0700 From: Kish Subject: Re: IN> Dinosaurs! Daiv wrote: > > So, here's the thing. In IN, there is a God. But the seven days > to creation story is metaphor rather than Truth. In IN, > dinosaurs lived (and lets be honest here; can you see a Steve > Jackson Game where dinosaurs did not ever exist? I think not > (note, Steve Jackson, the man himself, likes Dinosaurs)). > > So. How about a Really OLD servant of Jordi, whose word is > Dinosaurs? He ruled the Earth for a long time. He was struck > down, but he adapted and survived. How? When the dinosaurs died out, he should have died. - -- Kish ICQ# 28085879 AIM Kish K M ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 13:51:49 -0700 From: Daiv Subject: Re: IN> Dinosaurs! Kish wrote: > > So. How about a Really OLD servant of Jordi, whose word is > > Dinosaurs? He ruled the Earth for a long time. He was struck > > down, but he adapted and survived. > > How? When the dinosaurs died out, he should have died. > Not all of them died; Many species survived, and evolved. And in any case, the I would submit that the Word survived within the Symphony. Even though all the Species that the word represents have either died or evolved into something completely different, there is still the idea of Dinosaurs, of ancient magnificent and terrifying beasts of legend, as one theme, one Word, in the Symphony. Just an idea, of course. You will note the total absence of my name on anything in canon? This is an indication of how legitimate my opinion is within the scope of the game (any correlation between my opinions and actual canon is entirely coincidental and unintentional ;=) ) On the other hand, wouldn't you love to see the look on a Demonic players face when he comes around the corner and runs face to foot with a T. Rex [Chomp]? -Daiv, tech writer in service to coffee, searching for a superior. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 14:02:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Talents - --- "William J. Keith" wrote: > *Hee Hee Hee...* Yes, I'd think that if you needed a > base system in > Angelic, twelve is probably the way to go. There are arguments for other bases. Base 3: three represents the Godhead (Father, Son and Holy Spirit), though this might not fly in light of the questionable status of Christ in IN; Base 7: seven is the divine number of completion. It also happens to be the number of major Choirs of angels. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 The Aztecs had chocolate and human sacrifice. That's got to balance out on the karmic scale. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 14:07:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Superior limits (No Canon!) - --- Kish wrote: >An angel is not the same thing as a demon--and >perhaps, if the Lilim can walk about in the Light of >Heaven with no damage and has wings in its celestial >form instead of horns, then it cannot have demonic >attunements. Now _there's_ an interesting thought: what if the Light of Heaven thing was psychosomatic? Man, the Princes would love to find that out: all they'd have to do is mindblast their Servitors into believing that they wouldn't be harmed, and then start sending in the armies... ...who would all then spontaneously Redeem, since the part of a demon's brain that causes said psychosomatic condition also happens the part of the brain that regulates a demon's sense of Self. Hmmm. Maybe the Princes wouldn't love to find this out after all. :) Moe ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 06/05/01(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 17:13:30 -0400 From: "S.D." Subject: Re: IN> Superior limits >> So a Bright Lilim is still a Lilim. They still have the same resonance. Which means, in essence, that Bright Lilim *retain any Lilim Band attunements they held before Redeeming.* > >Only if those attunements are dependent on the Resonance. > >An angel is not the same thing as a demon--and perhaps, if the Lilim can >walk about in the Light of Heaven with no damage and has wings in its >celestial form instead of horns, then it cannot have demonic >attunements. You seem to have missed part of my post. I stated: "As most people probably know, going Outcast/Renegade means you lose all Rites pertaining to your Superior and cannot return to the celestial plane. Falling/Redeeming means you lose Attunements as well. I attributed that, originally, to the change of Band/Choir and Word. Then I found out that angels/demons who serve one Word may take Attunements for their Choir/Band from another word. So I thought it must be the change in *resonance* that removes those Attunements." There is no change in resonance for Lilim. Therefore, by that interpretation, there is nothing to remove Attunements. >> Which also begs the question, does this apply to, say, Elohim/Habbalah? It's effectively the same, except Habbalah can force emotions on others. Or how about Kyriotates/Shedim? Again, the same, except Shedim are limited to one host. Cherubim and Djinn are close as well, except for the shorter duration on one side and inability to harm on the other. And if it doesn't, does that mean the inability to use old Attunements is >> A: a *psychological* thing, and therefore can be *removed*? >> B: orders of Superiors, in case it increases Word-power for the other side >> (and it probably doesn't...) > >C: Falling or Redeeming is a state change that strips away all >attunements from the other side. That's the *canon* interpretation, as far as I can tell. I'm not *going* strictly by canon here. This was *never* meant to be canon. It was written because it offers some interesting potential for campaigns, if, as I said earlier, GMs don't mind altering the rules a bit. It also offers an alternative way to deal with the loss of abilities when one switches sides - namely, let 'em keep the abilities. It could also be considered as the rough equivalent of getting a Rite from the 'other side' - you *can* use it, but you get dissonant/go Outcast or Renegade/had just better pray nobody on your side can tell you've used it... And it's a lot less plausible for anyone but Lilim, anyway, since the resonance always changes *somehow* (except with them.) ~S.D. Ryukage http://fly.to/sd_nexus ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "The future hangs on a single choice. Life or death. Vengeance or mercy. Hate or love. Save or damn." Anonymous ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 14:08:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Superior limits - --- Daiv wrote: > What about Superiors? Obviously, they have access > to all> that > attunements that they hand out. But what about the > attunements of other Superiors? None of the material I've seen even hints at it to my recollection. Probably up to the individual GM. That brings up an equally critical question, though -- _would_ Superiors give each other their Attunements? Maybe to those Superiors to whom they are allied, IMHO, but I can't see it other than that. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 The Aztecs had chocolate and human sacrifice. That's got to balance out on the karmic scale. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 14:17:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Dinosaurs! - --- Daiv wrote: > And the idea that maybe, just maybe, he could be get > away with > a Velociraptor role/vessel is enough to make the most > hard hearted Smile. > IN: Jurassic Park. The Symphony found a way... ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 The Aztecs had chocolate and human sacrifice. That's got to balance out on the karmic scale. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 14:20:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Talents - --- Michael Walton wrote: > There are arguments for other bases. > > Base 3: three represents the Godhead (Father, Son > and Holy Spirit), though this might not fly in light > of the questionable status of Christ in IN; > Base 7: seven is the divine number of completion. > It also happens to be the number of major Choirs of > angels. And both are prime numbers. Kind of hard to do kitchen math when you can't divide evenly. :) Me, I figure base-12 for the humans, something really weird (but not prime) for the angels. Moe ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 06/05/01(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 14:22:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Dinosaurs! - --- Daiv wrote: > Not all of them died; Many species survived, and evolved. That's CDaU in IN and not completely proven in real life. IN specifies (in Jordi's write-up in the main book) that the dinosaurs did exist, but the geologic eras as the scientific community postulates them may or may not have occured. The material is very unclear on that point. What is clear is that, in IN, Creationism is right; God did create the Heavens and the Earth. Canon just doesn't say how long He took to do it. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 The Aztecs had chocolate and human sacrifice. That's got to balance out on the karmic scale. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 17:50:07 -0400 From: "S.D." Subject: Re: IN> Dinosaurs! >What >is clear is that, in IN, Creationism is right; God did >create the Heavens and the Earth. Canon just doesn't say >how long He took to do it. Hmm. That reminds me of something. ...yep, there it is. 'How it Happened', by Isaac Asimov. It's a short story (read: one page long in my copy...) but good. I'd ruin it if I tried to summarize, because it's a lot better in the full version. Basically, though, it rationalizes the time difference between scientific belief and Biblical statements. If you want a source, try 'Isaac Asimov: Science Fiction Masterpieces'. It's a group of sci-fi stories. 'How it Happened' is on page 242. ~S.D. Ryukage http://fly.to/sd_nexus ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Eden hasn't yet closed its gates to her." Akio Ohtori on Utena Tenjou (story title unknown) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 22:35:07 -0000 From: "cassandra benner" Subject: Re: IN> Dinosaurs! Snipe lots of stuff about dinosaurs. Well this guy would be high up on samingas death list, afterall, he must have weakened him something majorly, and if th eguy was remnantized, well, there are birds and the like which are descended from dinosaurs and suchlike. Hmm, which of jordis lot deal with birds? would the guy be the same choir as this lot. hmm, ramble over for now. Toodles. Casiopia - -There is no such thing as an atheist in a foxhole- Murphy's Law, Combatants Edition. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 22:37:18 From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> IN Style Fiction (was: Re: Convoluted) >Anyhow...I'm actually posting because I have been really enjoying both >the hard copy fiction in the source material, and the soft copy stuff >from this list, and I was wondering if you all could recommend some In >Nomine style fiction? Is there any? Stuff written specifically as In >Nomine fiction would of course be ideal, but I'd be interested in >suggestions for fiction that happened to cover the same subject matter >with similar or identical feel... > >Cheers, > >John Well, there's .45 Caliber Angel (http://www.eyrie.net/45/), you might be able to find stuff at http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/unofficial.html or from my collection of IN links at [shameless plug] http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/insmv/in.html Other than that . . . http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/fiction/ uh . . . ? That's about all I can come up with in a minute or two. - -Perry perrylloyd@hotmail.com pl312993@oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://www.geocities.com/perrylloyd/ "And that's the hardest thing for a human being to do - be wrong. Do you know that people would rather die than be wrong?" - --from A Matter For Men by David Gerrold _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 17:55:35 -0500 From: Andres Santiago Perez-Bergquist Subject: Re: IN> Superior limits (No Canon!) >Now _there's_ an interesting thought: what if the Light of Heaven >thing was psychosomatic? Man, the Princes would love to find that >out: all they'd have >to do is mindblast their Servitors into believing that they wouldn't >be harmed, and then start sending in the armies... If it were psychosomatic, then why would it affect Habbalah? They think they're still angels. Granted, you could come up with some explanation that, on the inside, they think they're weak and unable to stand the true purity of God, or perhaps they think that they get burned not by the light of heaven, but by the atmosphere of deluded stupidity all those other angels give off... - -- - -- Andres ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 17:59:04 -0500 From: Andres Santiago Perez-Bergquist Subject: Re: IN> Dinosaurs! >> So. How about a Really OLD servant of Jordi, whose word is >>Dinosaurs? He ruled the Earth for a long time. He was struck down, >>but he adapted and survived. > >How? When the dinosaurs died out, he should have died. Nonsense, he just word-shifted into the Angel of Birds. - -- - -- Andres ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 19:20:06 -0400 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> Superior limits (No Canon!) > If it were psychosomatic, then why would it affect Habbalah? >They think they're still angels. Granted, you could come up with >some explanation that, on the inside, they think they're weak and >unable to stand the true purity of God, or perhaps they think that >they get burned not by the light of heaven, but by the atmosphere of >deluded stupidity all those other angels give off... >-- Don't forget, Habbalah have to explain this to themselves anyway. *Obviously*, God is simply allowing them to do their duty *far* more effectively; if they didn't take damage from the Light of Heaven, all the Demon Princes would be throwing them at Heaven constantly. Or perhaps it's that they've become far more *aware* now, and they've realized that the Light itself is impure, and it's their job to *purge* the Symphony, so that the pain goes away... or any number of other delusions about it. >-- Andres William ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 19:39:49 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> IN Style Fiction (was: Re: Convoluted) At 10:37 PM -0400 6/12/01, Perry Lloyd wrote: >>Anyhow...I'm actually posting because I have been really enjoying both >>the hard copy fiction in the source material, and the soft copy stuff >>from this list, and I was wondering if you all could recommend some In >>Nomine style fiction? [...] Besides the fanfic, I'd suggest checking out the Bibilography in GURPS In Nomine.... There's also anime. Earthian, for instance, has some cool effects. It does jump in story a bit, since it's 4 episodes that span an entire manga series! I've heard things about Angel Sanctuary, but not seen it.(Vision of) Escaflowne has some hints here and there. Now, back to running... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 16:31:10 -0700 From: Ryan Elias Subject: Re: IN> IN Style Fiction (was: Re: Convoluted) Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > There's also anime. Earthian, for instance, has some cool effects. It > does jump in story a bit, since it's 4 episodes that span an entire > manga series! I've heard things about Angel Sanctuary, but not seen > it. It's pretty similiar to IN in some respects. Dark, low contrast and backwards IN, perhaps, but the similarities are there. I've seen Soldiers, I think, songs, vessels and a Remnant. I'd post a conversion, but I don't remember that much and the whole In Anime thing never really interested me ^_^ But it would work pretty well, I think, if anybody is really desperate for something to do. (Mind you, I only saw a couple of episodes, and that was a few months ago, so I could be wrong. It was also probably the single worst translated show I've ever watched. For example, the show's logo has "Angel Sanctuary" written in English and Japanese, but a subtitle says "Angle no-entry Zone". Hell is referred to in Japanese as 'he-dizu' (Hades) but the subtitles refer to it as "jigoku", I believe.) Cheers, Ryan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 20:47:53 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Superior limits (No Canon!) At 7:20 PM -0400 6/12/01, William J. Keith wrote: [...] > Don't forget, Habbalah have to explain this to themselves anyway. [...] On .innomine (a Pyramid board; www.sjgames.com/pyramid, s u b scribe today! $15 a year!), I think it was, someone gave a cool set of Habbie + real angel reactions. I'd hunt up the saved post, but tere is a baby crawling all over ,myu lap. Anywy, it was to the effect of, "When our job is done, we can return to Heaven. If our job is not done, then of _course_ we aren't allowed back. Duh." - --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. arcangel is nursing a trout with ARMS! ARMS that reach out and try to pound the keyboard! You say "And teeth. Ow." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 01:45:55 From: "Michael Cleveland" Subject: Re: IN> Superior limits (No Canon!) > > If it were psychosomatic, then why would it affect Habbalah? Personally, I go for this idea - Malakite of Destiny - So, why do the Habbalah not go back to Heaven? Habbalite of Fate - Well, that's simple - the lower Heavens are where the humans who are worthy of God's presense belong. It's a place of comfort and peace, a place of utter tranquility. It's very nice, I'm told... but there's a War going on to prepare Humanity for their rewards, be they the rewards of loyal service or the rewards for a life of iniquity. All of the habbalah are working towards the furtherence of that end, and there's no time for slacking off. Now, God's love and mercy may be nearly infinite, but when he sees his best and brightest servitors taking a break from their divinely inspired duties, it gets him annoyed. A habbalite who is taking a break is either lazy, and therefore not worthy of the presense of God, or they were put into the service of God before their transformation was complete, making them weaker and inferior. Malakite of Destiny - Uh...huh... so what about the rest of us angels? Habbalite of Fate - Well, the rest of the choirs, being defective, are not capable of withstanding the Purest Light of Heaven, and are therefore kept in the lower Heavens. Which is a place of rest and recuperation until they are ready for their specific transformations. It's also where our lesser bretheren, the Elohim, wait until they are ready to free themselves and make the transformation to greater angels and join the great work directly. Malakite of Destiny - And what about the Light of Heaven? Habbalite of Fate - Simply God's way of showing his disapproval for us slacking off in our duties. Once you become a Greater Angel, you dedicate your life to continuous and faithful service to the Lord. There are no breaks, no relaxing vacations in paradise - you have a duty to perform, which is the greatest honor of all - to serve God himself. You as a Malakite should understand that. Malakite of Destiny - Uh... yeah... _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:59:34 +1100 From: "james walker" Subject: IN> Re: Another Take on Novalis > *That's* our girl... > > Earl Truly. Very Impressive. Of course, the thought on Novalis turning up to the Tether and simply relying on her abilities to prevent violence would also be entertaining. "Thank you for inviting us, Azzie! No, don't try and restrain my Servitors, that's a form of violence. Shall we sing a song while waiting for your other Servitors to turn up? Was very thoughtful of you to host a party here; later we can move to one of my Tethers - you don't mind if I invite the various Renegades you're holding to join us? You do? Pity, because I'm afraid I have to insist..." James. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:06:00 +1100 From: "james walker" Subject: IN> Re: A Window into Fate >> >> This is as close as I'm liable to get. > > Nicely written, Moe. Once again, I'm sick with jealousy. [Nods]. [Then thinks]. Hell would still have acquired the soul if Nightmares had taught him the Lucid Dreaming skill - as a Dream Shade. Which may be one of the reasons Fate gets on so well with Nightmares. However, would there be clashes between Fate & Nightmares over whether specific humans be taught the skill? After all, if a human has fulfilled their Fate and then becomes a dream shade, they may get another chance at fulfilling their Destiny while in the Marches - I doubt Kronos likes that. Thoughts? James. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:10:48 +1100 From: "james walker" Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2260 > ** If we had twelve fingers and toes, of course, we'd probably be computing > in base 12. And who knows, this may have been in the original design specs > for mammals -- hexadactyly is a dominant genetic trait. Having a mere 5 > fingers is recessive. %^) And the Nephallim were (in at least some cases) supposed to have 12 fingers and toes. Possibly the Grigori were trying to repair our built-in calculators? James. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2261 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2001 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.