From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Jun 21 02:05:03 2001 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (root@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA26688 for ; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 02:05:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id UAA11646 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 20 Jun 2001 20:46:54 -0500 Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 20:46:54 -0500 Message-Id: <200106210146.UAA11646@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #2271 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, June 20 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2271 In this digest: Re: IN> On the Novalis Challenge Re: IN> On the Novalis Challenge IN> So that's where he was. Re: IN> So that's where he was. Re: IN> So that's where he was. Re: IN> So that's where he was. Re: IN> So that's where he was. Re: IN> On the Novalis Challenge Re: IN> On the Novalis Challenge Re: IN> On the Novalis Challenge Re: IN> Dancing Shoes Re: IN> On the Novalis Challenge Re: IN> Dancing Shoes IN> Iron Rev 2? Re: IN> A Sorcerers' Tale. Re: IN> So that's where he was. Re: IN> Dancing Shoes Re: IN> On the Novalis Challenge Fwd: IN> 'No, Really, I'm not a Habbalah...' Fwd: IN> Swiss They Ain't... Re: Fwd: IN> Swiss They Ain't... Re: IN> Iron Rev 2? Re: IN> On the Novalis Challenge Re: IN> On the Novalis Challenge Re: IN> Dancing Shoes Re: IN> Iron Rev 2? Re: IN> Dancing Shoes Re: IN> Dancing Shoes Re: IN> Dancing Shoes Re: IN> Dancing Shoes Re: IN> The Royal Honor Gaurd of Novalis Re: IN> Dancing Shoes Re: IN> The Royal Honor Gaurd of Novalis Re: IN> On the Novalis Challenge IN> Challenges Re: IN> On the Novalis Challenge Re: IN> Challenges Re: IN> On the Novalis Challenge Re: IN> Dancing Shoes Re: IN> On the Novalis Challenge Re: IN> The Royal Honor Gaurd of Novalis IN> A Bit of Clarification ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 11:11:39 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> On the Novalis Challenge Would Malakim of Flowers be allowed to play mind-games with their victims -- say, involving threats and accusation, or just popular tunes, uttered by wayside plants -- until said victims are gibbering in a nightmare of surrealism? (This would be for mundane human victims, of course.) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 11:34:09 -0400 From: "Matthew Gerber" Subject: Re: IN> On the Novalis Challenge - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Player" > This is one of the things that bothers me occasionally. Novalis is almost > inevitably portrayed as having some form of advantage when dealing with the > War Faction. I don't really understand where this comes from, either. Jo got a good bit of it. Let me take some other points. 1. Most Judaic/Christian/Islamic tradition (and In Nomine is mostly drawn from those) tends to hold that peace is inherently morally superior to war, and that while war can be a necessity, it is never an optimal state. Therefore, there's sympathy for Novalis' general moral position. 2. The war faction in Heaven holds the majority of the actual and political power: Laurence must be obeyed, Dominic can harass you if he thinks you're not doing your job right, and both of them are strong supporters of the war. Therefore, Novalis is an underdog. 3. Most people find the "motherly peacemaker" archetype a very likeable character. Therefore, Novalis is personally endearing. 4. There does exist a tendency for one political faction to assume that the other is entirely unbalanced. Messing with this assumption is a fun game to play. Therefore, Novalis appeals to those who want to balance imbalance. 5. The war faction tends to feel the "default" for In Nomine, especially for new players and new sets of discussions. Therefore, focusing on Novalis gives you that special, warm subversive feeling in your soul. For all these reasons, it's tempting to give Novy a *lot* of marbles to play with. Myself, I really don't think it's gone all that overboard (well, mostly) in terms of positive stuff about Novalis--but there should likely be some reflection. Let me magnify both of those points a little. There have been a few things that just about fall under "Novalis teaches the other Archangels how to fight the War"; this is, he says tactfully, reaching a bit. If you're wanting to run a serious and even moderately Bright campaign, no Archangel is an idiot (and a large portion of the seeds favorable to Novalis come as refutations that she is). But that's really been fairly rare. Most of the pro-Novalis stuff here hasn't been War-faction bashing, it's been saying "hey, Novalis has a brain too." More particularly, it's not unreasonable to assert that Novalis might have, say, perspectives that Michael could learn from. It *is* really unlikely that they haven't talked about them in the past however many eons it's been since the Fall; however, a whole lot of important stuff suddenly gathering and happening Right Now is a fairly general roleplaying conceit. I'm not really interested in writing (or reading) Novalis getting her teeth kicked in, any more than I've really found the "Novalis calmly runs rings around the rest of Heaven" extremities appealing. What I would be interested in is--just as there's been some interesting exploration of how Novalis can have a point even from Michael's point of view--some exploration of how the War Faction can have a point even from hers. In other words, what I'll be trying to get out of my own brain, for the purposes of your challenge, if it falls under the aegis of what you're thinking, is some vice versa: Novalis getting surprised at a neat defusement of a situation by a Mercurian of War, random Servitor of The Sword, Malakite of Stone or the like. That's just more interesting to me than stepping up to the plate just to embarass Novalis--or, really, any other Archangel. IMHO, YMMV, HTH. Matt ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 08:58:30 -0700 From: Sean McCarthy Subject: IN> So that's where he was. I received some spam today. It was telling me I was worthy of a credit card or something to that effect. However, their Excessive Capitalization combined with my message window in Eudora only displaying part of the subject led me to see this as the subject (no kidding!) Congratulations! We are pleased to notify you that you are Eli Whoa! Doesn't that settle a lot of questions? The full subject turned out to be: Congratulations! We are pleased to notify you that you are Eligible to apply for a Visa credit card ... but who cares about that? Sean ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 12:09:34 -0400 From: Cameron McCurry Subject: Re: IN> So that's where he was. > Congratulations! We are pleased to notify you that you are Eli hmmm...Who knew that Marc's people could track you down that way? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 12:09:13 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> So that's where he was. Sean McCarthy wrote: > Congratulations! We are pleased to notify you that you are Eli So was he using his Kyrio attunement or did you edit your memories a little too tightly? And was it signed Judgement or Revelation? Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 11:12:28 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> So that's where he was. From: "Sean McCarthy" > > The full subject turned out to be: > Congratulations! We are pleased to notify you that you are Eligible to > apply for a Visa credit card Talk about transubstatiation... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 11:12:28 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> So that's where he was. From: "Sean McCarthy" > > The full subject turned out to be: > Congratulations! We are pleased to notify you that you are Eligible to > apply for a Visa credit card Talk about transubstatiation... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 09:40:28 -0700 From: Kish Subject: Re: IN> On the Novalis Challenge Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > Would Malakim of Flowers be allowed to play mind-games with > their victims -- say, involving threats and accusation, or > just popular tunes, uttered by wayside plants -- until said > victims are gibbering in a nightmare of surrealism? (This would > be for mundane human victims, of course.) Depends on how the GM defines, "Violence." If that's you...you tell us. Would that be something you'd consider violent? - -- Kish ICQ# 28085879 AIM Kish K M ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 16:38:36 -0000 From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: Re: IN> On the Novalis Challenge >1. Most Judaic/Christian/Islamic tradition (and In Nomine is mostly drawn >from those) tends to hold that peace is inherently morally superior to war, >and that while war can be a necessity, it is never an optimal state. >Therefore, there's sympathy for Novalis' general moral position. Well, yes, but according to Canon, the world *is* in this less than optimal state. >2. The war faction in Heaven holds the majority of the actual and >political >power: Laurence must be obeyed, Dominic can harass you if he thinks you're >not doing your job right, and both of them are strong supporters of the >war. >Therefore, Novalis is an underdog. Dominic is an Equal Opportunity Harasser. Ask Michael. >3. Most people find the "motherly peacemaker" archetype a very likeable >character. Therefore, Novalis is personally endearing. If I thought Novalis was written as a motherly peacemaker, I might find her personally endearing too. I like Zadkiel quite a lot. However, since according to the book she's a '60s hippie flower child ... (As I've mentioned more than once, I don't believe this as a description of a major Archangel who's eons old -- but that's what it says in the book.) >4. There does exist a tendency for one political faction to assume that >the >other is entirely unbalanced. Messing with this assumption is a fun game >to >play. Therefore, Novalis appeals to those who want to balance imbalance. The usual result of this is the rash of "Fallen Novalis" writeups. >5. The war faction tends to feel the "default" for In Nomine, especially >for new players and new sets of discussions. Therefore, focusing on >Novalis >gives you that special, warm subversive feeling in your soul. I suppose this may have something, but if I really wanted to feel subversive I think I'd focus on Dominic. Then I could *really* feel like I was on the side of the underdog. >There have been a few things that just about fall under "Novalis teaches >the >other Archangels how to fight the War"; this is, he says tactfully, >reaching >a bit. Very tactful. What he said. >Most of the pro-Novalis stuff here hasn't been >War-faction bashing, it's been saying "hey, Novalis has a brain too." Your ideas sound very interesting. I look forward to seeing what you come up with. Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 12:41:40 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> On the Novalis Challenge Kish wrote: > Depends on how the GM defines, "Violence." If that's you...you > tell us. Would that be something you'd consider violent? No, I wouldn't. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 12:57:27 -0400 From: "Eric Bertish" Subject: Re: IN> Dancing Shoes >Eric, this is... > ...Derpendiculous. Yes, very derpendiculous. Be proud. Be ashamed. Ooooooh. Not quite the same as having a tropical disease named after me, but close enough. ;) Interestingly enough (or not, as the case may be), this is a derivation of something I started working on last year after I saw Shaft. I was rather tired of dealing with Goths and angst-mongers so prevalent in the Vampire scene, so I thought it would be trippy to set a game in the 70s when there was no Goth, and less angst. I called it, "The World of Gothic-Funk". - -- Casca ("Come on and take me to.... Funky Town!") _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 13:12:47 -0400 From: "Matthew Gerber" Subject: Re: IN> On the Novalis Challenge - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Janet Anderson" > >1. Most Judaic/Christian/Islamic tradition (and In Nomine is mostly drawn > >from those) tends to hold that peace is inherently morally superior to war, > >and that while war can be a necessity, it is never an optimal state. > Well, yes, but according to Canon, the world *is* in this less than optimal > state. This is true--but people can disagree about how to deal with that. (Warning: Matt had one set of Mennonite grandparents...) > >2. The war faction in Heaven holds the majority of the actual and > >political power: Laurence must be obeyed, Dominic can harass you > Dominic is an Equal Opportunity Harasser. Ask Michael. Point, but the general point stands. > If I thought Novalis was written as a motherly peacemaker, I might find her > personally endearing too. I like Zadkiel quite a lot. However, since > according to the book she's a '60s hippie flower child... This one I'll grant you outright. I'd find that character *excruciatingly* irritating. I'm ignoring her and going by INML Default Novalis, who's really a pretty fundamentally different character. Hm. How many Superiors has that happened to? How many have mutated into a generally accepted version on this mailing list that really does have a lot of divergences from and/or additions to the canon version? Novalis seems to have. Dominic seems to have even managed it more than once. > I suppose this may have something, but if I really wanted to feel subversive > I think I'd focus on Dominic. Then I could *really* feel like I was on the > side of the underdog. Oh yes. For the record there, I like the recent "Dominic has the most thankless job in Heaven and tries to do what he can" Dominic a lot better than the "Dominic is Asmodeus with feathers" Dominic who was more in favor not long ago. Back to the "no Archangel is an idiot" line of thought. Matt ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 13:14:58 -0400 From: "Malachai Davidson" Subject: Re: IN> Dancing Shoes >From: "Eric Bertish" I called it, "The World of Gothic-Funk". >("Come on and take me to.... Funky Town!") You are a cruel man, all day I have been trying to get the first song out of my head and when I finally do... I end up replacing it with another *&$%#*&$## disco song. You want Gothic-funk I curse you to suffer with the idea of Sisters of Mercy covering George Clinton. I am not going to quote anything because I am in a very fragile state of mind and I find my keystrokes going to a funk beat even as we speak. Anyway, judging by the plot seed you can come up with something far worse than I can. Hey, I just came up with a discord. I'll be back. Malachai "Free your mind and your ass will follow." George Clinton (ok just one quote) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 11:22:08 -0600 From: "Brad Julius" Subject: IN> Iron Rev 2? I found the first one to be very interesting and I wish I'd caught it early enough that I'd had a chance to participate, unfortunately I did not. So, when is this second one starting? Has it started? If so, what's the URL for the conditions? If not, when is it starting? I'd really like to get in on this one, but first I need the info. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 13:24:24 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> A Sorcerers' Tale. Very nice. But I'm too dense to figure out who "Your Grace" is. Who is it? Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 10:27:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> So that's where he was. - --- Sean McCarthy wrote: > Congratulations! We are pleased to notify you that you > are Eli > > Whoa! Doesn't that settle a lot of questions? I really don't see why you're surprised. After all, we've had Michael on the list for some time. };> ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 The Aztecs had chocolate and human sacrifice. That's got to balance out on the karmic scale. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 10:36:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Dancing Shoes - --- Eric Bertish wrote: > I was rather > tired of dealing with Goths and angst-mongers so > prevalent in the Vampire > scene Aren't we all? > so I thought it would be trippy to set a game in > the 70s when there was no Goth, and less angst. ! Less angst? In the _70's_? I was there, man, and I'm telling you that wasn't the case. The difference between 70's angst and 80's angst is that we 70's teens did something about our angst other than whine about it. Even if all we did was disco (OK, I never said we did anything productive). > I called it, "The World of Gothic-Funk". Now that's reaching. I couldn't have seen that coming with a "Flashlight." I'm almost sick of it -- must be the "Night Fever." Too much of that and I'll have to "Burn Rubber" out of here. Does make me wonder, though -- does the Demon Prince of Disco have his Principality in the Disco Inferno? ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 The Aztecs had chocolate and human sacrifice. That's got to balance out on the karmic scale. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 13:57:25 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> On the Novalis Challenge At 6:26 PM -0600 6/19/01, Peter Player wrote: [...] >why is it so easy to >believe that Novalis could be a logistical genius and so difficult to >believe that any of the militant Archangels could realistically compete with >Novalis in the more peaceful arts? [...] I suspect that the impression comes from the notion that, "if she's up against the wall, she can fight," whereas the more violent Words seem to have less scope _not_ to fight as their first (more practiced) reaction. This -- and a subliminal impression that "must be able to fight = good" -- results in Novalis-sympathizers assuming that Novalis encompasses both fighting and not-fighting -- and (as a peacable, thoughtful sort) the time to meditate upon when fighting is right and when not. I'm not saying that this is _right_, and some future author of Novalis is going to have to walk a narrow line between "holier-than-thou peacenik" and "stealth bad@ss angel who knows way too much about other Words." But I bet that's where some of it may be coming from. >Granted, Novalis might be really *good* at matters logistical, but unless >one dares to say that Michael is equally skilled at, say, flower >arrangement, I think there's something wrong with the Word interpretation. Hmmmmmm.......... I wonder if, in a competition of flower arranging where the outcome really _was_ vital, Michael would be able to tap into his Word and dredge up the skill... But only when it was a matter of requiring a champion. Be hard as heck to set up, though. Then again, he can tap the Mercurian diplomacy thing somewhat, so perhaps a diplomatic arrangement using some culture's "language of flowers" would actually work out. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 14:04:43 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Fwd: IN> 'No, Really, I'm not a Habbalah...' >Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 22:09:49 -0500 >Subject: BOUNCE in_nomine-l@lists.io.com: Non-member submission from ["Vaughn Romero" ] (Go to www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/lists.html or /listrules.html for details on how to s u b s c r i b e to the posters-l. --Beth) >From: "Vaughn Romero" >Subject: IN> 'No, Really, I'm not a Habbalah...' >Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 20:08:46 -0700 >Howdy, > >Yet another lurker speaks for the first time. The discussion on Destiny >and Fate got me thinking.... > >On Tuesday, 19 Jun 2001, Anthony Damiani wrote: >>over time, if he causes enough potential monsters to be reincarnated and >>sent back through the system instead of saved or damned, you'd reach a >>point where, instead of one potential Hitler in a generation, >>eventually you'd hit ten or a hundred, because you'd be dealing with the >>reincarnated souls of people who /could/ have been terrible in the previous >>umpteen generations > >This view has a potentially flawed assumption behind it: that souls carry >a Destiny or Fate independent of the context of their lives. This is >analogous to the old nature/nurture debates I heard in grad school. > >The nature side says Hitler was a damned soul waiting to happen. Every >time this soul is born, his nature is to embrace his Fate. If you take >the nature view then our poor "not Habbalite" angel Zeriel is just >delaying the inevitable and is probably well on his way to becoming a >"full-fledged Habbalite" on Pride alone if not from his emotional >attachment to a flawed argument. > >The nurture side says that poor Hitler was led to his Fate from being born >at the wrong time and falling for the wrong crowd. The assumption here is >that without an economically depressed Germany full of really angry folks >from WWI in which to be raised in, Mr. H. might have been content to >peacefully paint or be a carpenter. He would still have a Fate (perhaps be a >horrible frustrated painter), but presumably that would not have gotten the >attention of our preemptively avenging angel. > >Of course it is darkly humorous that the "nurture" argument ends up >justifying an angel to go kill people "for their own good and for the >betterment of humanity." But it does explain that one, and only one, point >of dissonance. > >Either choice has some interesting game consequences. If a soul is born >bad to the bone, then Kronos can play some really wicked games. Maybe >he would _want_ to have 10 to 100 bad seeds running around at one time to >keep those pesky angels busy. He might send his servitors out to prune the >tree of Fate a bit just to make sure it bears bigger and badder fruit at a >latter time. > >If your Fate really is a matter of when, where, and who you know, then you >could have a quite nasty Yves running around administering some "tough love" >to humanity. Also there would be some real incentive to being pro-active and >preventative by some potentially non-violent means. Every time you help >clean up one of the nastier places on the planet you remove a Fate breeding >ground. > >"Your donation of just 5 cents a day will keep little Adolf from taking >over the world..." >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 14:05:08 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Fwd: IN> Swiss They Ain't... >Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 22:26:17 -0500 >Subject: BOUNCE in_nomine-l@lists.io.com: Non-member submission from ["Vaughn Romero" ] > >From: "Vaughn Romero" >Subject: IN> Swiss They Ain't... >Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 20:25:15 -0700 > >On Tue, 19 Jun 2001, Michael Walton wrote: >>Sheesh! I'd have to agree. Nothing short of >>overwhelming force is going to get past these guys -- and >>Hell would need a _really_ good reason for that. > >I disagree. You don't even need a demon within a 5 mile radius >to take out the Pope. All you need is the will to nuke, nerve >gas, or cruise missle the Vatican. Sloppy, yes, effective yes, >useful to the cause of Hell, probably not. Such a tragedy >would probably bring people together, unless you can blame it >on some muslim extremists. Can any say "Holy War" boys and >girls? Still, if you play a trump card like that, you BETTER >be ready for the payback. > >Vaughn > >"I guess I should have a Sig, huh?" >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 10:46:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: Fwd: IN> Swiss They Ain't... - --- Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >I disagree. You don't even need a demon within a 5 mile > radius > >to take out the Pope. All you need is the will to nuke, > nerve gas, or cruise missle the Vatican. Uh... that kinda falls under my definition of overwhelming force. If a nuke doesn't qualify under your definition, I shudder to think what does. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 The Aztecs had chocolate and human sacrifice. That's got to balance out on the karmic scale. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 15:11:44 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> Iron Rev 2? On Wed, 20 Jun 2001, Brad Julius wrote: > I found the first one to be very interesting and I wish I'd caught it early > enough that I'd had a chance to participate, unfortunately I did not. So, > when is this second one starting? Has it started? If so, what's the URL for > the conditions? If not, when is it starting? I'd really like to get in on > this one, but first I need the info. Started last week, and the deadline was yesterday. Sorry. :) Don't worry... I'm planning on doing a third one, if no one beats me to it, sometime next month. Plus I have this other idea kicking around in my head that I'd like to try first. Just have to clear it with the appropriate people before doing it.... - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! "I feel like we could write a song with the title 'I Wanna Fuck You' and people would still say, 'I don't understand...explain to me what that song means.'" -- John Flansburgh (They Might Be Giants) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 13:15:20 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> On the Novalis Challenge Janet Anderson wrote: > Dominic is an Equal Opportunity Harasser. Ask Michael. That doesn't mean he harrasses all Archangels equally. Ask Eli. He harrasses in particular those whom HE thinks are not contributing as much as they should -- hence Eli and Gabriel (and probably Novalis) get more flack than Laurence or Michael. > If I thought Novalis was written as a motherly peacemaker, I might find her > personally endearing too. I like Zadkiel quite a lot. However, since > according to the book she's a '60s hippie flower child ... (As I've > mentioned more than once, I don't believe this as a description of a major > Archangel who's eons old -- but that's what it says in the book.) As has been pointed out many times before, the main book is somewhat schizophrenic (as, indeed, the whole line has been). You can concentrate on the tongue-in-cheek satirical remnants of the original source material, or you can concentrate on the somewhat more serious interpolations. I think about 90% of the "Novalis is a hippie chick" opinions are due to the illustration that makes her look like Janis Joplin, frankly. OTOH, "hippie chick" and "motherly peacemaker" are hardly mutually exclusive. Anyway, why don't you just play Novalis the way you'd like her to be, instead of the way you assume she is in everyone else's campaign? - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 13:11:52 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> On the Novalis Challenge From: "Janet Anderson" > > However, since > according to the book she's a '60s hippie flower child ... Not the book I've read, Janet. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 13:15:42 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Dancing Shoes From: "Malachai Davidson" > >From: "Eric Bertish" I called it, "The World of Gothic-Funk". > > You are a cruel man, all day I have been trying to get the first song out of > my head and when I finally do... I end up replacing it with another > *&$%#*&$## disco song. Who's the private dick who embraces all the chicks? Drac! Can you dig it? ;;;) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 13:16:30 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Iron Rev 2? The deadline for submissions for Iron Rev 2 was yesterday, unfortunately. I'll be posting all the submissions tonight. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 15:52:56 -0400 From: "Eric Bertish" Subject: Re: IN> Dancing Shoes >You are a cruel man, You're just now figuring this out? ;) >all day I have been trying to get the first song out of >my head and when I finally do... I end up replacing it with another >*&$%#*&$## disco song. Whatever you do, *don't* think of "It's a Small World After All" or the Barney "I Love You, You Love Me" theme. They will do permanent mental damage. >You want Gothic-funk I curse you to suffer with the >idea of Sisters of Mercy covering George Clinton. Stylistically speaking, that would sound a lot like "This Corrosion", wouldn't it? - -- Casca "Oh no not I, I will survive" _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 15:13:07 -0500 From: "Erich S. Arendall" Subject: Re: IN> Dancing Shoes > Whatever you do, *don't* think of "It's a Small World After All" or the > Barney "I Love You, You Love Me" theme. They will do permanent mental > damage. Lambchop, Demon of the Song that Never Ends Impudite of the Media Erich S. Arendall http://www.egrigor.com/ Egrigor | Bringing some colour into your drab little life. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 16:24:04 -0400 From: "Malachai Davidson" Subject: Re: IN> Dancing Shoes > Does make me wonder, though -- does the Demon Prince of >Disco have his Principality in the Disco Inferno? Ahhhhh bad pun alert! run for cover and yes, he does. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 16:28:17 -0400 From: "Malachai Davidson" Subject: Re: IN> Dancing Shoes >Lambchop, Demon of the Song that Never Ends >Impudite of the Media Serving under the Demon of Suicide _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 16:44:04 -0400 From: Daniel Sauve Subject: Re: IN> The Royal Honor Gaurd of Novalis On Wed, 20 Jun 2001 05:43:18 -0700 (PDT), Michael Walton wrote: >Hello! Excellent point, that. As is the sidekick point. Hmmm... Mikey, Impudite captain of Repartee and Punmaster of Kobal... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 14:05:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Dancing Shoes - --- Prodigal wrote: > Who's the private dick who embraces all the chicks? > Drac! > Can you dig it? Shut yo' mouth. 0;> ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 The Aztecs had chocolate and human sacrifice. That's got to balance out on the karmic scale. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 14:08:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> The Royal Honor Gaurd of Novalis - --- Daniel Sauve wrote: > Hmmm... Mikey, Impudite captain of Repartee and Punmaster > of Kobal... Darn! Another cover blown! };> ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 The Aztecs had chocolate and human sacrifice. That's got to balance out on the karmic scale. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 21:26:11 -0000 From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: Re: IN> On the Novalis Challenge >This one I'll grant you outright. I'd find that character *excruciatingly* >irritating. I'm ignoring her and going by INML Default Novalis, who's >really a pretty fundamentally different character. What's that? Tell me more. Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 21:34:23 -0000 From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: IN> Challenges >Hmmmmmm.......... I wonder if, in a competition of flower arranging where >the outcome really _was_ vital, Michael would be able to tap into his Word >and dredge up the skill... But only when it was a matter of requiring a >champion. In a science fiction novel called *At the Seventh Level*, whose author I don't remember, wars were decided by poetry contests. The armies were wired into a computer; the champions made up poetry and shouted it at each other; the computer judged the relative merits (craftsmanship) of each poem; and the loser's army got jolts of electricity. The one whose army lasted the longest was the winner. Now, in such a situation in the In Nomine universe (and I can't see how to set it up either), your two best shots would be Eli or Michael. But if you're only allowed one ... I don't know. There's a strong argument for Michael's "champion" abilities kicking in, as above, but an equally strong argument for Eli because he's Eli. What do people think? Janet Anderson (Is there an Angel of Poetry in canon, and if so who is it, and if not why not?) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 17:35:31 -0400 From: "Eric Bertish" Subject: Re: IN> On the Novalis Challenge >>>This one I'll grant you outright. I'd find that character >>*excruciatingly* >>irritating. I'm ignoring her and going by INML Default Novalis, who's >>really a pretty fundamentally different character. > > >What's that? Tell me more. In Nomine Mailing List Default Novalis. - -- Casca _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 14:57:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Challenges - --- Janet Anderson wrote: > Now, in such a situation in the In Nomine universe (and I > can't see how to > set it up either), your two best shots would be Eli or > Michael. But if > you're only allowed one ... I don't know. There's a > strong argument for > Michael's "champion" abilities kicking in, as above, but > an equally strong > argument for Eli because he's Eli. I can actually see Mike throwing a contest, if it would harm Heaven's cause more than help. Remember that Michael's Word encompasses _all_ aspects of War -- he knows the price of victory as well as the cost. In light of that, I can't help thinking that he doesn't just know how to win -- he knows when to take a dive. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 The Aztecs had chocolate and human sacrifice. That's got to balance out on the karmic scale. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 14:49:39 -0700 From: Kish Subject: Re: IN> On the Novalis Challenge Eric Bertish wrote: > > >>>This one I'll grant you outright. I'd find that character > >>*excruciatingly* > >>irritating. I'm ignoring her and going by INML Default Novalis, who's > >>really a pretty fundamentally different character. > > > > > >What's that? Tell me more. > > In Nomine Mailing List Default Novalis. > You mean the one who's 50% Djinn and at least 5% Malakite? - -- Kish ICQ# 28085879 AIM Kish K M ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 16:03:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Dancing Shoes Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 10:45:12 -0400 From: "Eric Bertish" Subject: Re: IN> Dancing Shoes > > Great. You broke Ryan. Are you happy now? Nah. I wanna break *Moe*. Try again, dude: I wrote up an *Angel* of Disco, remember? Good, good, _good_ seed, btw. Moe PS: I'm actually now in MD. Alas, my stuff isn't, so now I have to go get it. For the next two weekends. Why is it so bloody difficult for me to actually get to PLAY this RPG? Is it too much to ask for _one_ fragging weekend free? Just one? :( ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 06/05/01(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 20:25:45 -0400 From: "Matthew Gerber" Subject: Re: IN> On the Novalis Challenge - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Janet Anderson" > >This one I'll grant you outright. I'd find that character *excruciatingly* > >irritating. I'm ignoring her and going by INML Default Novalis, who's > >really a pretty fundamentally different character. > What's that? Tell me more. Eric got the acronym expansion (In Nomine Mailing List Default Novalis). The Novalis that I see depicted here most often is thoroughly different from the "hippie chick peace love and drugs earth mother" image that you seem to get out of the canon description of Novalis. My impression of her's the strong-willed, doting, moralistic, mothering pacifist, not the burnout. (I also can't see Eli that way, in case it isn't obvious.) This is the case for two reasons: one, I got on this mailing list *before* actually reading any of the main books, and first impressions hold. Two, I tend to reject stuff that just doesn't make sense from my personal images of fictional universes--and as you've pointed out, unless it's a very comedic universe, Austin Powers as an Archangel just doesn't work. I'd *hate* the character you're describing. I like the character I see here. They're two different characters, unless I'm even more myopic than usual. If I am, I'm getting a vision exam next month sometime anyway, so just laugh at me and move on... Matt ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 21:31:56 -0400 From: Daniel Sauve Subject: Re: IN> The Royal Honor Gaurd of Novalis On Wed, 20 Jun 2001 14:08:09 -0700 (PDT), Michael Walton wrote: > >--- Daniel Sauve wrote: >> Hmmm... Mikey, Impudite captain of Repartee and Punmaster >> of Kobal... > > Darn! Another cover blown! };> Damnit, Mikey, you barely challenge us anymore! - -- Your GM Daniel Sauve (in nomine, shadowrun, earthdawn, hero unlimited) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 19:45:43 -0600 From: "Peter Player" Subject: IN> A Bit of Clarification >From: "Jo Hart" >Well, what bugs me is the casual assumption that military action (whether >assault, subversion, or espionage) must always be the most efficient way to >deal with any situation, and any archangel who doesn't specialise in one of >those things is somehow useless. That bugs me too. I don't believe I ever suggested that Novalis was *useless*, or that violence was the most efficient way to fight the War. If I implied this, it was unintentional, and I apologize. My problem stems from the fact that whenever Novalis gets involved in a story or plot seed, it seems that it is the Archangels of the War Faction who are fast on the way to dunselhood. The fact that Novalis does not specialize in violence or military actions does not render her useless -- far, *far* from it -- but neither does the fact that other Archangels use such techniques render *them* useless, or somehow give Novalis the moral high ground and the upper hand in any debate with them. All I wanted to challenge people to do was write something that portrays Novalis as fallible -- just like all the other AA's. I mean, haven't there been stories about Michael jumping in, axe swinging, where a gentler touch might've produced better results, or where Dominic's Inquisition was portrayed as villainous, when all that was needed was a little love and understanding? My point is, if they're fallible, then she is too, and she'll occasionally make mistakes. Bad mistakes. Whether those situations could've been handled better by jumping in guns-blazing is up to whoever writes the piece. They don't have to be. >You could look at it this way: the war faction exists to ensure that the peace faction can do their work. You don't have to be a soldier to get to heaven. I like that way of looking at it. Again, my problem stems from the fact that every time the War Faction gets involved in a situation in which the Peace Faction has an interest, they (the War Faction) are usually portrayed as wrong, or inferior, or inflexible. My argument is if they are any of these things, then is it unreasonable to assume that the members of the Peace Faction are, at least some of the time? You don't have to be a soldier to get to heaven, sure. But that doesn't mean that the angels (and humans) who aren't soldiers are more valuable than those who are. >From: Michael Walton >!!! Catch up on sleep? Why would you want to do that after all the great stuff we've seen done by people who admit to being sleep-deprived when they did it? Because if I don't, and I let my mind wander, it might destroy civilization as we know it. Of course, some days I'm not sure that's a *bad* thing... >From: Emily Dresner-Thornber >Sometimes, you don't have to fire a shot to get your message across. There are alternatives to firearms. Of course there are. Hey, I live in Canada, and guns aren't exactly part of the Canadian cultural mystique -- snow is. And anyone who expresses shock over the existence of a Canadian cultural mystique will be sealed in an igloo with an enraged polar bear. :) There are definitely times when one doesn't have to fire a shot to get one's point across. Again, I don't believe I suggested that violence was the only solution to the War. I just asked for pieces that portray Novalis as fallible -- just like all the other AA's. This does not mean her contribution to the War is useless, or means less than any of the other AA's efforts, nor does it mean that charging in guns blazing is the only way to get one's message across. But in the end, the fact that she chooses not to embrace these methods does *not* make Novalis any more capable than any of the other AA's, and yet frequently she is portrayed as being more "right" than they are. That bothers me as much as suggesting that "kill 'em all" is the right solution does. They're both wrong. In the end, I think Novalis promotes a lot of valuable causes. Gandhi was probably one of her Soldiers, and he promoted peace above everything, and he succeeded quite admirably in his cause doing so. But for every Gandhi, there's also a Neville Chamberlain. That's something that people tend to forget. - -Peter Player - -ioghost@hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2271 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2001 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.