From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Jun 22 17:45:13 2001 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA14877 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 17:45:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id RAA06234 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 17:45:10 -0500 Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 17:45:10 -0500 Message-Id: <200106222245.RAA06234@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #2273 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, June 22 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2273 In this digest: Re: IN> Please come vote: Iron Rev II Re: IN> Re: Poetry duels Re: IN> Please come vote: Iron Rev II Re: IN> Please come vote: Iron Rev II Re: IN> Please come vote: Iron Rev II IN> IN > Wondering about celestial languages IN> IN > New Servitor Attunement for Novalis Re: IN> IN > Wondering about celestial languages Re: IN> IN > Wondering about celestial languages Re: IN> Re: Poetry duels IN> hobbies, was Re: Poetry duels Re: IN> hobbies, was Re: Poetry duels Re: IN> IN > Wondering about celestial languages Re: IN> IN > Wondering about celestial languages Re: IN> hobbies, was Re: Poetry duels Re: IN> Re: Poetry duels Re: IN> Minor Choirs (was: Superior limits) IN> Two oppositional attunements Re: IN> Two oppositional attunements Re: IN> Re: Poetry duels Re: IN> Re: Poetry duels Re: IN> Two oppositional attunements Re: IN> Two oppositional attunements Re: IN> Re: Poetry duels Re: IN> Two oppositional attunements Re: IN> IN > Wondering about celestial languages Re: IN> IN > Wondering about celestial languages IN> Fwd: BOUNCE in_nomine-l@lists.io.com: Non-member submission from [Michael Walton ] Fwd: Re: IN> On the Novalis Challenge Fwd: RE: IN> IN > Wondering about celestial languages ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 16:17:43 -0700 (PDT) From: scott hillman Subject: Re: IN> Please come vote: Iron Rev II - --- Prodigal wrote: > From: "Eric Bertish" > > > > >That's how I wound up screwing up and missing it, > in that case. Could you > > >send me another copy, please? > > > > Already winging its merry way to you as we speak. > ;) > > Thanks. > > Any comments on the site design? Jonesing for > feedback here... Good design...my only real comment deals with the linkage ..thiers no link on the webpage..or the innomine collection webpage for that matter linking it with the first iron rev webpage.. hey i am on both and i like to have easy linking to my stuff, as egotistical as it sounds..and i forget the web adress of the old one. Scott Hillman - - who recived the most varried voting on the first iron rev contest. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 17:01:31 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Re: Poetry duels "S.D." wrote: > But the samurai way of life does come under the word of the Sword - or if it doesn't *yet*, it should *now*. Certainly there are enough parallels that Laurence's Servitors undoubtedly feel an affinity for bushido. However, Laurence personally is a Christian and clearly favors the Judeo-Christian/European tradition, which means he's more likely to think of himself as a knight than a samurai. And there are certainly some elements of bushido that are less than Heavenly (such as the right to cut down persons of lower social status at will). Anyway, the point was that someone claimed that Laurence would be good at flower arranging because it's a "Samurai skill." First, Laurence isn't a samurai. Secondly, leaving aside the fact that generally only court samurai during peacetime were likely to be more than vaguely familiar with flower arranging -- certainly not veteran warriors who spent most of their time in the field -- the fact that something is a part of medieval Japanese culture and therefore that samurai would have been familiar with it doesn't make it part of the Word of the Sword. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 22:22:03 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Please come vote: Iron Rev II From: "Eric Bertish" > > I like it, overall. I think the vote-by-email thing is a bit kludgy; some > sort of javascript polling system would be a bit smoother for voters. Unfortunately, I don't know enough Javascript to have done that. But thanks for the comments. :) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 22:28:57 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Please come vote: Iron Rev II From: "scott hillman" > > thiers no link on the webpage..or the > innomine collection webpage for that matter linking it > with the first iron rev webpage.. hey i am on both and > i like to have easy linking to my stuff, as > egotistical as it sounds..and i forget the web adress > of the old one. I'll add them in the next couple of days. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 22:24:28 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Please come vote: Iron Rev II From: "Michael Walton" > > 0:> Nice to see that programmers and site designers are > as bad as writers in that regard. I also write, so feel free to blame that. *g* > I liked the simplicity of it -- not a lot of bells and > whistles to slow down the download time. Of course, some > people might call that a boring site. YMMV. > Of course, you can't go wrong with the flaming feather graphic. I deliberately aimed for something really simple because I wanted the stories to be the major focus of the site, rather than my moderate coding skills. I wish the vertical tile effect that I'd originally gone with worked in Netscape, though... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 20:50:51 -0700 From: Vaughn Romero Subject: IN> IN > Wondering about celestial languages Howdy all, While voting on the Iron Rev, Anthony Damiani's (IMHO very cool) seed got me thinking about celestial languages. Anthony's seed presents Helltongue as indecipherable by the angelic mind. I find myself in disagreement with that premise, but I am also curious to see what others think. Here are my reasons for not buying into the indecipherable theory: * Helltongue is (I believe) a cousin of Angelic. At the very least the two "modern" languages share a common mother tongue. * Gazillions of celestials have learned to speak Helltongue; so it can't be that hard for a celestial to learn. * If celestials can learn human languages (even the ineffable and obscure ones like Navajo and Mohawk), then why not Helltongue? * When Lucifer was tempting angels to his side pre-Fall, what language did he speak? Helltongue? If yes, then the listening angels either must have understood Helltongue or Lucifer could do absolute wonders with sock puppets and Pictionary. The only counter-argument I know is from reading game logs (Fiat Justitia in particular): In that game a cool Elohite (Mazpatiel) learned Helltongue, became dissonant, and came a hairs breath from Falling. In that particular case, it was not that Helltongue was incomprehensible, but rather that learning it was dangerous to angels. The theory being something like if you speak evil, you become evil. An obvious solution is to build exactly the kind of device that Anthony Damiani's seed describes. Of course, wouldn't the prolonged exposure to Helltongue produce an evil machine? just how corrupting is Helltongue? Can you cheat the corruption by translating the meaning into another language? Does the corruption get left behind, or can good old fashioned American English (or worse, Texas English) lead an angel to Fall? Any thoughts? I knew I should have studied linguistics... Vaughn, yet another technical writer unwittingly in service to the Game. - - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - "Never abandon faith, even in the lowest of the Fallen, until I have no choice." David's 1st Oath ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 21:49:13 -0700 From: Vaughn Romero Subject: IN> IN > New Servitor Attunement for Novalis This is definitely non canon, but follows up on an idea I posted earlier. For those who need a reason why the flower children aren't all munched by the frothing demon hordes, I present: NOVALIS SERVITOR ATTUNEMENT - --------------------------- Rose Thorns (a.k.a Instant Karma) The angel can surround herself with an invisible field that inflicts corporeal damage upon any attacker that damages the angel. Any attack that inflicts corporeal damage upon the angel will also be inflicted upon the attacker. The amount of damage (Body hits only) taken by the attacker is equal to the amount of corporeal damage inflicted upon the angel plus half the amount of Essence spent to power the field (round fractions up). The field requires 2 Essence to raise and will last for 5 minutes plus an additional minute for each additional Essence used to power the field. The field does not prevent the angel from taking damage, but fellow servitors of Flowers are immune to the field's effects (no throwing Flower servitors around for fun!). While rumors speak of a celestial version of this attunement, it is merely wishful thinking on the part of more militant angels. Corporeal death is one thing, but promoting, or risking, soul-death is not in the spirit of the word. * * * This might also work as a song, but I don't think that promoting Ethereal and Celestial damage would fit Novalis' style. I made the effects intentionally invisible because having played enough Diablo 2, I know some munchkin player would just see the field and wait for it to wear off first. I say let the Bad people wonder what that Essence expenditure was for or find out the hard way. Comments and corrections welcomed. Vaughn, (former)Texan, Tech Writer, Twisted. - - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - "Never abandon faith, even in the lowest of the Fallen, until I have no choice." David's 1st Oath ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 05:51:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> IN > Wondering about celestial languages - --- Vaughn Romero wrote: > * Helltongue is (I believe) a cousin of Angelic. At the > very least the two > "modern" languages share a common mother tongue. Canon says that Helltongue is actually a corrupt version of Angelic. It also says that demons can speak Angelic, so your point about Lucifer is moot. As for angels not understanding Helltongue, I suspect that the problem has less to do with lexicography than context. In Angelic it is impossible to lie, while Helltongue makes this easy. It's that sort of difference in communicated concepts that makes Helltongue incomprehensible to angels, IMHO. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 The Aztecs had chocolate and human sacrifice. That's got to balance out on the karmic scale. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 10:08:54 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> IN > Wondering about celestial languages Vaughn Romero wrote: > * Helltongue is (I believe) a cousin of Angelic. At the very least > the two "modern" languages share a common mother tongue. If I recall canon correctly, Helltongue is a deliberate invention of the demons, who found it inconvenient to speak a language in which one could not lie, after the Fall. (I wonder if it was invented between the Fall and when Lilith released them from Hell.) As an invention, it may not have a lot of organic connection to the ancestral Heavenly tongue. > The only counter-argument I know is from reading game logs (Fiat > Justitia in particular): In that game a cool Elohite (Mazpatiel) > learned Helltongue, became dissonant, and came a hairs breath from > Falling. I believe that's canon. Angels *can* learn Helltongue, but it is dissonant for them to use it, which, as you note, makes a great motive for using a computer translator. However, there are those angels that are redeemed demons. They presumably remember Helltongue and could act as translators, without even getting dissonance from it. But perhaps the workload is too high. > Of course, wouldn't the prolonged exposure to Helltongue produce > an evil machine? just how corrupting is Helltongue? Not that corrupting, so far as I know. It would be amusing for the machine to develop bugs and breakdowns from exposure to Helltongue, but nothing in canon requires it. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 11:12:55 -0400 From: "Malachai Davidson" Subject: Re: IN> Re: Poetry duels >From: David Edelstein >Anyway, the point was that someone claimed that Laurence would be good >at flower arranging because it's a "Samurai skill." First, Laurence >isn't a samurai. Secondly, leaving aside the fact that generally only >court samurai during peacetime were likely to be more than vaguely >familiar with flower arranging -- certainly not veteran warriors who >spent most of their time in the field -- the fact that something is a >part of medieval Japanese culture and therefore that samurai would have >been familiar with it doesn't make it part of the Word of the Sword. I am inclined to disagree with you on that point. Yes, Laurence is Christian but more importantly he is also the Sword. This encompasses all aspects of the sword. Just as he has expanded his word to encompass chivalry, his word covers the code of bushido. His word also takes on the courtly aspects of chivalry and the courtly aspects of Bushido. Yes, you can argue that the courtly aspects that are referred to have nothing to do with Bushido, but you should also argue the same in regards to chivalry. What this boils down to is that even if he didn't want some aspect associated with the sword it still is. Whether or not he uses it in his everyday life is up to Laurence. He still has the ability to tap into that aspect of his word. Just like Novalis chooses not to tap into the more violent aspects of Flowers, she can when the chips are down. The only real way that I see to not have it be a part of him is by doing some heavy duty word promoting against it, but that would be a waste of time when there is a war to be won. Malachai _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 15:28:42 -0000 From: "cassandra benner" Subject: IN> hobbies, was Re: Poetry duels Now admitadly i am thinking on a tangent, but what are the superiors hobbies? yves have a penchent for golf? laurance likres to arrange flowers? michael goes fishing? gabriel goes mountan trekking? david coes out night clubbing? dominic sits in the park playing chess with old men? novalis goes to historic re-enactments? Jordi finds a kid and gets scratched behind the ears? zadkael goes paintballing? khalid goes to startrek conventions as mr spock? christopher does his home work? (sorry couldnt resist it) janus just chills out with a beer in one hand and the tv remote in the other? eli dresses up like an old man and goes to the park to play chess? The AA's if stuck earthside for a while in a lull in the war, what would they do if they had some down time? And as for the DP's, well i'll leave that for some one else. And the thigns i done for them up above do manage to fit in to the words they are inb a skewed way some how. >of his word. Just like Novalis chooses not to tap into the more >violent aspects of Flowers, she can when the chips are down. The only real >way that I see to not have it be a part of him is by doing some heavy duty >word promoting against it, but that would be a waste of time when there is >a >war to be won. > >Malachai Cass - -There is no such thing as an atheist in a foxhole- Murphy's Law, Combatants Edition. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 11:49:04 -0400 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> hobbies, was Re: Poetry duels >Now admitadly i am thinking on a tangent, but what are the superiors >hobbies? Depends on the image of your campaign. Angels themselves are inhuman enough to be unfamiliar with the concept of hobies; Archangels are probably far past needing them. The closest they'd get to a hobby is "a new skill they've decided to pick up the internalizing way, through experience." >The AA's if stuck earthside for a while in a lull in the war, what would >they do if they had some down time? > >And as for the DP's, well i'll leave that for some one else. DPs, now, I could see. A Demon Prince is probably waging a constant war with himself, to keep his Word from overwhelming his personality. His selfhood is important to him. Thus, they could very well pick up "hobbies," things an instantiation or two will do every now and then, just to keep themselves. Only problem is, it couldn't be dissonant, so what would they do? Andrealphus -- cuddles up alone in a quiet study with the latest-published sexual self-help books and laughs himself silly. Asmodeus -- joins a random student protest group for a while. I wouldn't want to hog all of them, though, so I'll leave you with this image: Vapula -- primitive camping. >Cass William ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 12:12:38 -0400 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> IN > Wondering about celestial languages >Howdy all, > >While voting on the Iron Rev, Anthony Damiani's (IMHO very cool) seed got me >thinking about celestial languages. Anthony's seed presents Helltongue as >indecipherable by the angelic mind. I find myself in disagreement with that >premise, but I am also curious to see what others think. Here are my reasons >for not buying into the indecipherable theory: > >* Helltongue is (I believe) a cousin of Angelic. At the very least the two >"modern" languages share a common mother tongue. To be precise, the first Fallen demons took their original language and reshaped it; Angelic probably is *not*, in fact, subject to elidation and other forces that change language over time, although this is purely my interpretation. Canon, however, is that Angelic is the "mother tongue" of Helltongue. >* Gazillions of celestials have learned to speak Helltongue; so it can't be >that hard for a celestial to learn. GURPS: In Nomine doesn't actually give a dificulty rating for Helltongue for angels, which I take to mean that it is an average language to learn, if one makes the attempt. For humans on Earth, Helltongue is a Hard skill (for souls in Hell, it's once again average -- and they *don't* get it by default...). >* When Lucifer was tempting angels to his side pre-Fall, what language did >he speak? Helltongue? If yes, then the listening angels either must have >understood Helltongue or Lucifer could do absolute wonders with sock puppets >and Pictionary. Lucifer was, in my opinion, speaking Angelic and using Fast-Talk at a phenomenal level. For example, in Blandine's writeup it mentions what he said to Beleth -- among other things, that "your own fear stems from improper wielding of your Word." This is true, to an extent -- Beleth wasn't perfect, and therefore could very well have been wielding her Word in some improper fashion, and the fear of the Angel of Fear is intimately conected to her Word. By such means he could speak Angelic and give false impressions. An alternative suggestion is to have the First Balseraph have found out how to lie in Angelic -- a dangerous, heretical, and frightening possibility. In short, Lucifer was damned skilled at what he was doing, and probably *could* have worked wonders with sock puppets and Pictionary. ;^) An easy way to give someone a false impression without speaking a word is to show them something you know they'll misinterpret. >The only counter-argument I know is from reading game logs (Fiat Justitia in >particular): In that game a cool Elohite (Mazpatiel) learned Helltongue, >became dissonant, and came a hairs breath from Falling. In that particular >case, it was not that Helltongue was incomprehensible, but rather that >learning it was dangerous to angels. The theory being something like if you >speak evil, you become evil. Angels gain a point of dissonance when they learn Helltongue. They gain another point of dissonance if they use it to lie. (Seraphim gain two per lie, one from the language and one from their own choir dissonance condition.) Conclusion: Laurence does not know Helltongue, and must rely on angels who at some point in their existences have experienced dissonance in order to be able to see translations of it. The original seed, by the way, is still acceptable. It simply becomes a Celestial decryption project. In canon, I cannot recall whether there exists any Song which automatically decodes -- I don't think tere is one -- and I further don't think that Yves' Library necessarily decodes information that it stores. IMHO, it wouldn't -- the original form is what was important, and that is faithfully represented, but having a translation made would seem to require a more active intervention on the part of whatever principle drives the Library. Of course, this seems like far too simple an explanation for Michael's complaint that Yves withholds such information from the rest of Heaven, so tere's almost certainly something else involved. >Vaughn, yet another technical writer unwittingly in service to the Game. > >- * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - >"Never abandon faith, even in the lowest of the Fallen, until I have no >choice." David's 1st Oath William ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 10:03:19 -0700 From: Kish Subject: Re: IN> IN > Wondering about celestial languages Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > I believe that's canon. Angels *can* learn Helltongue, but it > is dissonant for them to use it, Only dissonant for them to /lie/ in it. Not dissonant if they speak the truth. (Canonically. I don't know about Fiat Justitia.) - -- Kish ICQ# 28085879 AIM Kish K M ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 10:16:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> hobbies, was Re: Poetry duels - --- "William J. Keith" wrote: > DPs, now, I could see. A Demon Prince is probably waging > a constant war > with himself, to keep his Word from overwhelming his > personality. His > selfhood is important to him. Thus, they could very well > pick up > "hobbies," things an instantiation or two will do every > now and then, just > to keep themselves. Only problem is, it couldn't be > dissonant, so what > would they do? Saminga -- taxidermy Baal -- capture the flag/paintball Valefor & Lilith -- dancing at the hottest night spots Alaemon -- probably has a hobby, but hasn't told anyone what it is. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 The Aztecs had chocolate and human sacrifice. That's got to balance out on the karmic scale. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 12:22:52 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Re: Poetry duels Malachai Davidson wrote: > I am inclined to disagree with you on that point. Yes, Laurence is > Christian but more importantly he is also the Sword. This encompasses all > aspects of the sword. Yes, but flower arranging is not part of the Sword. > Just as he has expanded his word to encompass > chivalry, his word covers the code of bushido. Perhaps, but flower arranging is not part of bushido. > His word also takes on the> courtly aspects of chivalry and the courtly aspects of Bushido. No, his personality may, but his Word does not reflect everything even indirectly associated with people who happened to use swords. > Yes, you> can argue that the courtly aspects that are referred to have nothing to do > with Bushido, but you should also argue the same in regards to chivalry. Word-wise, I would. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 13:30:02 -0400 From: "Joseph Rocchi/Toronto/IBM" Subject: Re: IN> Minor Choirs (was: Superior limits) "Perry Lloyd" wrote: > > --- "William J. Keith" wrote: > > > you *will* convert > > > to GURPS In Nomine, if solely for the ability to purchase > > > these for your > > > characters as advantages rather than heavily-regulated > > > attunements. You > > > *will* become GURPSian. . . come to us.... > > > > NOOOOOOO! I'll never go to the Dark Side! Never! :p > But it's the Faster and Easier of the paths. What's the problem here? I am reminded here of John Wick's "Good Guy Vader" concept, which he's expounded several places - most notably http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/login/article.cgi?1148 (for those of you with Pyramid Subscriptions) - Take a look. It might give you some hints on backwards campaigns - Joseph Paul Rocchi ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 10:18:21 -0700 From: "Phillip Des Jardins" Subject: IN> Two oppositional attunements Daiv and I were out driving yesterday when we thought about these. You can blame him for the first, but I claim full responsability for the second. Tech Support (Jean) This attunement, recently developed as a way to help humans figure it out for themselves, costs 1 essense to use, and requires a successful Intelligence roll on the part of the Angel. When used on a subject facing a technological malfunction, it gives them insight into a) what exactly the problem is (provided they didn't allready know that), and b) how to solve it, both based on the CD of the Intelligence roll. A 1 would give the basic gist of the problem and the Celestial equivalent of RTFM, while a 6 would reveal any problems with the device, even ones that haven't become a problem yet, and how to handle them. Bonehead User From Hell (Vapula) This attuenent, which requires 2 essence to use and a succesfull Will roll, causes the victem, who must be in the midst of operating a machine of some sort, to completely lose any technological skills they may have, -without- actually realising this. Unless they can make a Perception roll at a penalty equal to the CD of the Will roll, they will continue their task, all the while making it worse by making the most basic and destructive mistakes without noticing. The CD should be used as an indicator of just how bad they make things. Phillip, Mercurian of Novalis, The Happy Shiny Mercurian ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 10:44:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Two oppositional attunements - --- Phillip Des Jardins wrote: > Bonehead User From Hell (Vapula) Jeez, I know people who've been targeted with this. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 The Aztecs had chocolate and human sacrifice. That's got to balance out on the karmic scale. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:24:43 -0400 From: "Malachai Davidson" Subject: Re: IN> Re: Poetry duels >From: David Edelstein > > His word also takes on the> courtly aspects of chivalry and the courtly >aspects of Bushido. > >No, his personality may, but his Word does not reflect everything even >indirectly associated with people who happened to use swords. What fuels the power of a word, the belief that beings put into it and aspects connected to it. Think about the broader image of the sword. Not just what a sword is, but what thinking of a sword brings to mind. Do you see nothing but a piece of metal with a blade on it or do you see images of honor, the marines, images of a Knight being knightly and doing knightly things in a knightly setting. No ask someone from Asia what they see. It isn't knights, one of the first things that come to mind are Samurai, and a lot of things related to feudal Japan. That is what happens when a word is expanded beyond the literal, other things get attached that related to the word. Flower arranging is connected because the sword brings to mind feudal Japan and that way of life for a rather large part of the world. Words and their aspects are interconnected throughout everything. Just look at word-bound angels and their superiors. Malachai _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:28:23 -0400 From: damienw@juno.com Subject: Re: IN> Re: Poetry duels On Fri, 22 Jun 2001 12:22:52 -0500 David Edelstein writes: ts of Bushido. > > No, his personality may, but his Word does not reflect everything > even indirectly associated with people who happened to use swords. Which isn't how it gets to be part of the Word, David, at least as I understand In Nomine. Just as Novalis' Word is associated with peace because flowers have been associated with that concept, the Sword has become associated with honor and with the two conceptual ideals of honor, knights and samurai. Given the other established fact of In Nomine - a Word's literal meaning is fixed, but the connotations are subject to the views of humans - it doesn't *matter* if flower arranging really was part of bushido or not, or whether samurai did it or not, if enough people THINK it did. That said, I tend to think Novalis would still win a flower-arranging contest, just because direct links beat conceptual, indirect links any day IMO. Although Michael would have a chance since it IS a contest, and all conflict is directly associated with the Word of War. Flip a coin. - --- damienw[et]juno.com "To kill a man between panels is to condemn him to a thousand deaths." - Scott McCloud ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 13:01:03 -0700 From: "Phillip Des Jardins" Subject: Re: IN> Two oppositional attunements > Tech Support (Jean) > Bonehead User From Hell (Vapula) I was just struck with a thought: what would happen if someone were affected by both of these at the same time? Phillip, Mercurian of Novalis, The Happy Shiny Mercurian ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 13:18:10 -0700 From: Kish Subject: Re: IN> Two oppositional attunements Phillip Des Jardins wrote: > > > Tech Support (Jean) > > Bonehead User From Hell (Vapula) > > I was just struck with a thought: what would happen if someone were > affected by both of these at the same time? > Considering the demon's Will is likely to be higher than the angel's Intelligence, the person is probably in trouble. - -- Kish ICQ# 28085879 AIM Kish K M ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 16:17:51 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> Re: Poetry duels Malachai Davidson wrote: > What fuels the power of a word, the belief that beings put into it and > aspects connected to it. Think about the broader image of the sword. Not > just what a sword is, but what thinking of a sword brings to mind. Do you > see nothing but a piece of metal with a blade on it or do you see images of > honor, the marines, images of a Knight being knightly and doing knightly > things in a knightly setting. Yeah, I'm sure I've never thought in depth about what Laurence's Word represents, since I only wrote his expanded writeup in Superiors 1. > No ask someone from Asia what they see. It > isn't knights, one of the first things that come to mind are Samurai, and a > lot of things related to feudal Japan. That is what happens when a word is > expanded beyond the literal, other things get attached that related to the > word. Flower arranging is connected because the sword brings to mind feudal > Japan and that way of life for a rather large part of the world. Words and > their aspects are interconnected throughout everything. Just look at > word-bound angels and their superiors. Yeah, I'm sure I've never thought in depth about how Words work, since I only wrote the Game Master's Guide. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:29:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Two oppositional attunements - --- Phillip Des Jardins wrote: > > Tech Support (Jean) > > Bonehead User From Hell (Vapula) > > I was just struck with a thought: what would happen > if someone were > affected by both of these at the same time? That duplicates the "Tilt" Attunment created by Kobal. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 The Aztecs had chocolate and human sacrifice. That's got to balance out on the karmic scale. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 18:52:45 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> IN > Wondering about celestial languages At 10:08 AM -0500 6/22/01, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >Vaughn Romero wrote: > >> * Helltongue is (I believe) a cousin of Angelic. At the very least >> the two "modern" languages share a common mother tongue. Main book, hell-chapter, box entitled: "The Dark Celestial Tongue." Or Helltongue, in GURPS IN, in the Languages section. >> The only counter-argument I know is from reading game logs (Fiat >> Justitia in particular): In that game a cool Elohite (Mazpatiel) >> learned Helltongue, became dissonant, and came a hairs breath from >> Falling. > >I believe that's canon. Angels *can* learn Helltongue, but it >is dissonant for them to use it, which, as you note, makes a great >motive for using a computer translator. It is dissonant for an angel to _learn_ Helltongue (one note), and dissonante to _lie_ in Helltongue (one note per lie). If you learn it and/or are a redeemed demon whose knowledge of the language was not wiped during redemption by your Archangel, then you can "play Seraph" and speak Helltongue without fear of dissonance. But it'll probably make you want to wash your mouth out with soap. O:> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 18:57:30 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> IN > Wondering about celestial languages At 12:12 PM -0400 6/22/01, William J. Keith wrote: >Lucifer was, in my opinion, speaking Angelic and using Fast-Talk at a >phenomenal level. For example, in Blandine's writeup it mentions what he >said to Beleth -- among other things, that "your own fear stems from >improper wielding of your Word." This is true, to an extent [...] And don't forget that Lucifer could have spoken the "truth as I believe it," and even though it was shaded as "my very strong opinion," Beleth might well have considered that the second-born Seraph's strong opinion was indeed, quite correct. >impressions. An alternative suggestion is to have the First Balseraph have >found out how to lie in Angelic -- a dangerous, heretical, and frightening >possibility. Hey, if a Balseraph activates its resonance so that it _believes_ its own lies (as it must), then it can say _anything_ in angelic, so long as the angelic statement is spoken in the tense of, "I believe that what I am saying is true." (Angelic tenses translate difficultly.) >Conclusion: Laurence does not know Helltongue, and must rely on angels who >at some point in their existences have experienced dissonance in order to >be able to see translations of it. Ooooooo, nice point there. Must remember it. (Or he must rely on redeemed demons who have not had the knowledge wiped from their minds. It is theoretically possible for a never-experienced-dissonance demon to decide to become an angel (free will, so grand!), redeem successfully, and then go on to translate Helltongue...) (Not _likely_. But possible.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 19:04:47 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Fwd: BOUNCE in_nomine-l@lists.io.com: Non-member submission from [Michael Walton ] >Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 12:50:01 -0500 >Subject: BOUNCE in_nomine-l@lists.io.com: Non-member submission from [Michael Walton ] [[Always remember: if your email starts bouncing, the list admin starts u n s u b s c r i b i n g. --Beth]] >Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 10:49:27 -0700 (PDT) >From: Michael Walton >Subject: Re: Fwd: IN> 'No, Really, I'm not a Habbalah...' > >> >From: "Vaughn Romero" > >> >"Your donation of just 5 cents a day will keep little >> Adolf from taking >> >over the world..." > > Now THAT'S funny. > >===== >Michael Walton, #9805-068 > The Aztecs had chocolate and human sacrifice. >That's got to balance out on the karmic scale. > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail >http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 19:05:35 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Fwd: Re: IN> On the Novalis Challenge >Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 13:03:57 -0500 >Subject: BOUNCE in_nomine-l@lists.io.com: Admin request of type /\buns\w*b/i at line 3 > >Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 13:07:50 -0500 >From: David Edelstein >Subject: Re: IN> On the Novalis Challenge > >Emily Dresner-Thornber wrote: > >Hey, I thought you were u n s u b scribing! ;) > >> >> The book I'm reading, _Sewer, Gas, and Electric: the Public Works Trilogy_> by Matt Ruff, has something interesting: eco-terrorist pirates who use> embarrassment and humiliation to fight their cause. Sure, they don't> believe in violence and bodily harm to people, but no one ever said> anything about Great Acts of Vandalism. What is a little day-glo between> friends? > > >Same premise in "Zodiac," by Neal Stephenson. > >-David > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 19:06:39 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Fwd: RE: IN> IN > Wondering about celestial languages >Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 11:32:49 -0500 >Subject: BOUNCE in_nomine-l@lists.io.com: Non-member submission from [ranma ] > >Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 11:34:40 -0500 >From: ranma >Subject: RE: IN> IN > Wondering about celestial languages > >> >>>* When Lucifer was tempting angels to his side pre-Fall, what language did >>>he speak? Helltongue? If yes, then the listening angels either must have >>>understood Helltongue or Lucifer could do absolute wonders with sock puppets >>>and Pictionary. >> > >Who says Lucifer LIED to anyone? The key thing is that Angelic doesn't ensure >you speak 'the TRUTH', it ensures you can't say something that you yourself, >think is false. Lucifer said things which he thought was true. Being an >Archangel, no one he talked to could successfully resonate him to determine >Truth, and probably wouldn't have even thought to do that to the Archangel of >Light, anyway. > >Lucifer may have been proud, may have been stupid, but we have no reason to >believe the In Nomine Lucifer saw himself as lying at the time. He used very >persuasive language, which played upon the weaknesses and ambitions of those >who followed him. But from what we know of his temptation of various folk, he >didn't lie to them, though he was often mistaken. > >John Biles > ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2273 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2001 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.