From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Jun 27 13:20:44 2001 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA30878 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 13:20:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id SAA28819 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sun, 29 Oct 2000 18:06:15 -0600 Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 18:06:15 -0600 Message-Id: <200010300006.SAA28819@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #2279 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Sunday, October 29 2000 Volume 01 : Number 2279 In this digest: IN> Off-Topic: Mailing List Archives IN> Gabrielites and other connotations Re: IN> Lines for Calabim when they kill Angels Re: IN> Lines for Calabim when they kill Angels Re: IN> Sex in the Celestials (was Novalis challenge) RE: IN> Gabrielites and other connotations RE: IN> Gabrielites and other connotations Re: IN> "And I Feel Fine" -- Part 2: High Heaven IN> "And I Feel Fine" -- Part 3: The First Horseman IN> "And I Feel Fine" -- Part 2: High Heaven IN> "And I Feel Fine" -- Part 3: The First Horseman Re: IN> 'Houston, we have outright fanboyishness...' Re: IN> "And I Feel Fine" -- Part 2: High Heaven IN> "And I Feel Fine" -- Part 2: High Heaven Re: IN> 'Houston, we have outright fanboyishness...' IN> "And I Feel Fine" -- Part 3: The First Horseman Re: IN> "And I Feel Fine" -- Part 2: High Heaven Re: IN> Off-Topic: Mailing List Archives ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 20:51:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Peter Eng Subject: IN> Off-Topic: Mailing List Archives For the past few days, the mailing list archives have been coming up with a "page not found" error. Can somebody e-mail me with a suggestion on who to bother about this? Peter Eng peng@scn.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 01:39:55 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Gabrielites and other connotations [Again, Gabriel strikes me as more appropriate to that role. Of course Gabriel herself probably hasn't given much conscious thought to sex for a thousand years or so (maybe that's why so many societies are sexually dysfunctional?), but I've always thought of her Servitors probably being the most horny angels around, next to Eli's.] Fire has Enlightment, Vengence, and countless other connotations... and they're dissonance condition means basically they are stuck constantly doing nothing but punishing the Cruel for their mistress's pleasure so I'm not sure this might exactly be true.... Fire Servitor 1: I wanted to prostelize the good word but I had to set the Preacher's wife on fire for being mean... Fire Servitor 2: I wanted to help a girl play the violin and become passionate about it but I had to set her instructor on fire... Fire Servitor 3: I just beat my last case done.... I suppose they're good for burning down the house but probably fizzle out relationship wise. - -Charlie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 05:59:07 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> Lines for Calabim when they kill Angels On Tue, 26 Jun 2001, Erich S. Arendall wrote: > The Young Ones? > > ...Great. Now I keep picturing Vivian as a Calabite of HardCore. Naw, Calabite of Haagenti. He's used the Rite on damn near every episode. Mike: Baleraph of Dark Humor (pretending to be of Lust) Neil: Djinn of Factions (p)Rick: Habbalah of Hardcore (and, literally, *the* lowest man on the totem pole of Furfur's organization) And I'm gonna go with Alexai as a Free Lilim. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! "Punctuality, regularity, discipline, industry, thoroughness, are a set of slave virtues." -- G. D. H. Cole ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 05:59:07 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rev. Pee Kitty" Subject: Re: IN> Lines for Calabim when they kill Angels On Tue, 26 Jun 2001, Erich S. Arendall wrote: > The Young Ones? > > ...Great. Now I keep picturing Vivian as a Calabite of HardCore. Naw, Calabite of Haagenti. He's used the Rite on damn near every episode. Mike: Baleraph of Dark Humor (pretending to be of Lust) Neil: Djinn of Factions (p)Rick: Habbalah of Hardcore (and, literally, *the* lowest man on the totem pole of Furfur's organization) And I'm gonna go with Alexai as a Free Lilim. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian, Q4B4L! Meow! "Punctuality, regularity, discipline, industry, thoroughness, are a set of slave virtues." -- G. D. H. Cole ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 07:13:07 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: Re: IN> Sex in the Celestials (was Novalis challenge) - --On Tuesday, June 26, 2001 2:09 PM -0700 Michael Walton wrote: > > --- Charles Phipps wrote: >> I must admit I can imagine the look on Dominic's 333 some >> odd eyes when one >> of his Cherubs wraps her arms around him and professes >> her undying love... > > I would pay money to see that... > Pay-Per-Eww? Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 06:41:04 -0600 From: "Julian Mensch" Subject: RE: IN> Gabrielites and other connotations [Fire has Enlightment, Vengence, and countless other connotations... and they're dissonance condition means basically they are stuck constantly doing nothing but punishing the Cruel for their mistress's pleasure so I'm not sure this might exactly be true.... Fire Servitor 1: I wanted to prostelize the good word but I had to set the Preacher's wife on fire for being mean... Fire Servitor 2: I wanted to help a girl play the violin and become passionate about it but I had to set her instructor on fire...] I'm actually really unimpressed with the way IN treated Gabby and the Word of Fire. They touch on the fact that Fire has all these other interesting connotations (passion, vengeance, inspiration, transformation, rebirth, cleansing, etc.) and that Gabriel is the angel responsible for revealing much of the Western monothiestic tradition, but what it ultimately comes down to is that all her servitors really do is "punish the cruel," and that's a terribly one-dimensional role IMO. In cynical moods, I'm inclined to think that Gabriel was written to be "kewl" -- that is, "she's like this megababe that hunts down all the street scum and fries their asses, and she's like psycho and uncontrollable, and her servitors get to do whatever they want as long as they fry a bully every few days." In short, she's an adolescant power fantasy, sex fantasy and revenge fantasy all in one. (I'm _not_ speaking about her _Superiors_ writeup, which I'm sure is much more three-dimensional than this, as I've heard from good sources they are all very well done.) Although, I must admit, a missionary who occasionally has to set the preacher's wife on fire does have interesting comic potential... :) - -- Julian Mensch ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 06:41:04 -0600 From: "Julian Mensch" Subject: RE: IN> Gabrielites and other connotations [Fire has Enlightment, Vengence, and countless other connotations... and they're dissonance condition means basically they are stuck constantly doing nothing but punishing the Cruel for their mistress's pleasure so I'm not sure this might exactly be true.... Fire Servitor 1: I wanted to prostelize the good word but I had to set the Preacher's wife on fire for being mean... Fire Servitor 2: I wanted to help a girl play the violin and become passionate about it but I had to set her instructor on fire...] I'm actually really unimpressed with the way IN treated Gabby and the Word of Fire. They touch on the fact that Fire has all these other interesting connotations (passion, vengeance, inspiration, transformation, rebirth, cleansing, etc.) and that Gabriel is the angel responsible for revealing much of the Western monothiestic tradition, but what it ultimately comes down to is that all her servitors really do is "punish the cruel," and that's a terribly one-dimensional role IMO. In cynical moods, I'm inclined to think that Gabriel was written to be "kewl" -- that is, "she's like this megababe that hunts down all the street scum and fries their asses, and she's like psycho and uncontrollable, and her servitors get to do whatever they want as long as they fry a bully every few days." In short, she's an adolescant power fantasy, sex fantasy and revenge fantasy all in one. (I'm _not_ speaking about her _Superiors_ writeup, which I'm sure is much more three-dimensional than this, as I've heard from good sources they are all very well done.) Although, I must admit, a missionary who occasionally has to set the preacher's wife on fire does have interesting comic potential... :) - -- Julian Mensch ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 10:09:30 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> "And I Feel Fine" -- Part 2: High Heaven David Edelstein wrote: > What about the Grigori? Or is that coming later? Oh, yes, don't worry. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 10:09:01 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> "And I Feel Fine" -- Part 3: The First Horseman "Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, "Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?" But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. Then one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals." -- Revelation 5:1-5 * * * * * * * Roleplaying seed: Conversion Experiences It rapidly becomes obvious to everyone in Heaven that Christianity is true. But *how* true? And what *kind* of Christianity? The returnees from the Upper Heavens include plenty of humans and angels who used to be of other faiths, but none of them have useful information on these questions. What, then, should angels do concerning their human Soldiers and servants? Almost everyone on Earth is having a rough time, right now. Theological debate doesn't attract a lot of interest. But looking for spiritual strength is another matter. Look for it *where*? * * * * * * * "And the dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name. The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority." -- Revelation 13:1-2 * * * * * * * Even Lucifer is taken in, at least briefly, by Michael's ruse. He decides the time is right to move one of his pawns forward on the world's chessboard. This is an extraordinary man, a Soldier of Lucifer who started with seven Forces, and to whom Lucifer has added three more for a total of ten: The Soldier, one Cezar Therrian, was given the Forces and Resonnances of a balseraph, a lilim, and an impudite. All these resonnances are very useful in his career as a UN diplomat. The UN is in ruins. The UN building in New York City is simply gone, along with most of the rest of New York, and a large chunk of its bureaucracy is dead, in various catastrophes around the world. This includes the Secretary General. Therrian moves from diplomatic background to foreground with supernal speed and becomes the new UN Secretary General, saving the UN from oblivion and re-convening the Security Council in Rome, which is relatively untouched, just beyond the general disaster area that is the eastern Mediterranean. He declares that world-wide disaster relief has to be the UN's sole concern and publically begs for the help of the member nations. Privately, he pulls in geases. He begins laying the foundations for his future empire. Therrian is, of course, the Antichrist. Lucifer has read Revelation, too, and he knows full well that the Antichrist only comes into play in the End Times. And he wasn't going to start the End Times when it looked like he could lose. But now, with Michael apparently out of the way, it looks like the crucial prophecies cannot be fulfilled for Heaven. Even so, Lucifer is being cautious. Therrian is under orders to found his empire slowly. It isn't like there's a hurry. Heaven looks like it is in disarray, Michael looks gone, and Therrian has plenty of personal time, already being over 170 years old, thanks to his command of various Songs. * * * * * * * "I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, "Come!" I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest." - -- Revelation 6:1-2 * * * * * * * Lucifer's caution is wise. that's why it can't be allowed to continue. Gabriel was always the spark of divine inspiration. Of course, *divine* inspiration is not a good thing for Hell. From her place by the Throne, she fans the flame of Therrian's ambition. There is an elegant office in the Vatican. Here, the turmoil of the aching world does not show. This office has been put at the disposal of the UN Secretary General, while he reorganizes that world body. He writes on a laptop, placed on a baroque desk two hundred times older than it is. Suddenly, there is another man in the room, in severe formal dress, looking young, fair, and human, though he is none of those things. Lucifer: "My son, what are you doing? That order you are composing is the founding of a world empire, no matter how you couch it in terms of humble service to suffering humanity." Therrian (concealing the dread he always feels at these meetings, and the additional shock of realizing -- again -- how closely he is watched): "My Father, is this not your plan for us?" Lucifer: "Yes, but not yet. We must verify the reports from the battlefield." Therrian: "Have you not personally interrogated Belial's own surviving captains? (All of them spirits more intelligent than their late master.) Father, the world is ripe. With every day we wait, the nations recover another step from Gabriel's death-throes. They become that much harder to subdue." The debate goes back and forth, but in the end the Tempter is tempted. He decides that, even if all his old foes are not dead, some must be, and the rest must be much weakened. Then best to strike quickly. He agrees to Therrian's plan. The next morning, Therrian announces the creation of myriads of "recovery zones" in the world's remaining population centers. There, food, shelter, and medical care will be supplied to all who come. And there, UN troops and other armed forces under UN control will maintain order. All in a spirit of humanitarian aid. At his side, in the background as he makes the announcement, stands a bald, hatchet-faced figure in dark, vaguely clerical garb. It is Kronos, in the Role of Therrian's "spiritual advisor." * * * * * * * Roleplaying seed: The Beast at His Best Angelic PCs *know* who Therrian is, and what he's doing. What do they do about it? Do they tell their human servants and friends? Start organizing resistance? So far, there is no Archangelic direction, and *so* *far*, Therrian is doing little but good in the world. How do they react to human street-theologians denouncing Therrian as the Antichrist? (This is bound to happen, without any celestial assistance at all. It has happened many times before with far less provocation. They just happen to be right this time.) Angels who decide to cooperate with the UN recovery effort, for the time being, may be discomfitted to find themselves working along side demons. Angels who decide to resist immediately will be looked at askance by perfectly benign humans who wonder what their problem with Therrian is. * * * * * * * Roleplaying seed: Flower Arrangements What are angels of Flowers to do, come Armageddon? It becomes more important than ever that they foster peace, so long as it is between those who do not serve Therrian. But, along with the angels of Protection, many of them are put to work healing. Angels of Flowers and Protections are likely to find themselves sent to one of the many disaster areas, in hastily arranged medical Roles, trying to help the hurting while they are still taking cram courses in the Song of Healing and mundane medical skills. * * * * * * * Roleplaying seed: Deserting At almost any time during the Tribulation, PCs of either side can be engaged in helping mortals defect from one side to the other. For politicians, diplomats, spies, and soldiers, these will be for-real defections into or out of Therrian's rule. For more ordinary folk, it may be a matter of sneaking into or out of the "recovery zones," acquiring or losing a paper trail. These adventures can, of course, happen with or without celestials or Soldiers involved. * * * * * * * Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 11:47:13 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> "And I Feel Fine" -- Part 2: High Heaven I want you to know how much I love this series and while I'm not particularly a Left Behind fan (just get on with the Apcolypse already!) the bizzare interpretations work quite well here and the Apolypse seems to be working right on schedule. Your statement about old attunements ceasing to work while others perhaps jump starting (Knowledge to the Word of the Metatron take one) was very good and I loved the initial killing of Belial....yeah good for Gabby. I do have a couple of question regarding that... 1. We ever get any statement on Uriel's metholody of war with ethereals? 2. Will our Appollyon figure if he shows up be what lucifer's been working on in the Lower Hells for sometime? - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 11:57:28 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> "And I Feel Fine" -- Part 3: The First Horseman "Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, "Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?" But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. Then one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals." -- Revelation 5:1-5 * * * * * * * Roleplaying seed: Conversion Experiences It rapidly becomes obvious to everyone in Heaven that Christianity is true. But *how* true? And what *kind* of Christianity? The returnees from the Upper Heavens include plenty of humans and angels who used to be of other faiths, but none of them have useful information on these questions. What, then, should angels do concerning their human Soldiers and servants? Almost everyone on Earth is having a rough time, right now. Theological debate doesn't attract a lot of interest. But looking for spiritual strength is another matter. Look for it *where*? * * * * * * * "And the dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name. The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority." -- Revelation 13:1-2 * * * * * * * Even Lucifer is taken in, at least briefly, by Michael's ruse. He decides the time is right to move one of his pawns forward on the world's chessboard. This is an extraordinary man, a Soldier of Lucifer who started with seven Forces, and to whom Lucifer has added three more for a total of ten: The Soldier, one Cezar Therrian, was given the Forces and Resonnances of a balseraph, a lilim, and an impudite. All these resonnances are very useful in his career as a UN diplomat. The UN is in ruins. The UN building in New York City is simply gone, along with most of the rest of New York, and a large chunk of its bureaucracy is dead, in various catastrophes around the world. This includes the Secretary General. Therrian moves from diplomatic background to foreground with supernal speed and becomes the new UN Secretary General, saving the UN from oblivion and re-convening the Security Council in Rome, which is relatively untouched, just beyond the general disaster area that is the eastern Mediterranean. He declares that world-wide disaster relief has to be the UN's sole concern and publically begs for the help of the member nations. Privately, he pulls in geases. He begins laying the foundations for his future empire. Therrian is, of course, the Antichrist. Lucifer has read Revelation, too, and he knows full well that the Antichrist only comes into play in the End Times. And he wasn't going to start the End Times when it looked like he could lose. But now, with Michael apparently out of the way, it looks like the crucial prophecies cannot be fulfilled for Heaven. Even so, Lucifer is being cautious. Therrian is under orders to found his empire slowly. It isn't like there's a hurry. Heaven looks like it is in disarray, Michael looks gone, and Therrian has plenty of personal time, already being over 170 years old, thanks to his command of various Songs. * * * * * * * "I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, "Come!" I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest." - -- Revelation 6:1-2 * * * * * * * Lucifer's caution is wise. that's why it can't be allowed to continue. Gabriel was always the spark of divine inspiration. Of course, *divine* inspiration is not a good thing for Hell. From her place by the Throne, she fans the flame of Therrian's ambition. There is an elegant office in the Vatican. Here, the turmoil of the aching world does not show. This office has been put at the disposal of the UN Secretary General, while he reorganizes that world body. He writes on a laptop, placed on a baroque desk two hundred times older than it is. Suddenly, there is another man in the room, in severe formal dress, looking young, fair, and human, though he is none of those things. Lucifer: "My son, what are you doing? That order you are composing is the founding of a world empire, no matter how you couch it in terms of humble service to suffering humanity." Therrian (concealing the dread he always feels at these meetings, and the additional shock of realizing -- again -- how closely he is watched): "My Father, is this not your plan for us?" Lucifer: "Yes, but not yet. We must verify the reports from the battlefield." Therrian: "Have you not personally interrogated Belial's own surviving captains? (All of them spirits more intelligent than their late master.) Father, the world is ripe. With every day we wait, the nations recover another step from Gabriel's death-throes. They become that much harder to subdue." The debate goes back and forth, but in the end the Tempter is tempted. He decides that, even if all his old foes are not dead, some must be, and the rest must be much weakened. Then best to strike quickly. He agrees to Therrian's plan. The next morning, Therrian announces the creation of myriads of "recovery zones" in the world's remaining population centers. There, food, shelter, and medical care will be supplied to all who come. And there, UN troops and other armed forces under UN control will maintain order. All in a spirit of humanitarian aid. At his side, in the background as he makes the announcement, stands a bald, hatchet-faced figure in dark, vaguely clerical garb. It is Kronos, in the Role of Therrian's "spiritual advisor." * * * * * * * Roleplaying seed: The Beast at His Best Angelic PCs *know* who Therrian is, and what he's doing. What do they do about it? Do they tell their human servants and friends? Start organizing resistance? So far, there is no Archangelic direction, and *so* *far*, Therrian is doing little but good in the world. How do they react to human street-theologians denouncing Therrian as the Antichrist? (This is bound to happen, without any celestial assistance at all. It has happened many times before with far less provocation. They just happen to be right this time.) Angels who decide to cooperate with the UN recovery effort, for the time being, may be discomfitted to find themselves working along side demons. Angels who decide to resist immediately will be looked at askance by perfectly benign humans who wonder what their problem with Therrian is. * * * * * * * Roleplaying seed: Flower Arrangements What are angels of Flowers to do, come Armageddon? It becomes more important than ever that they foster peace, so long as it is between those who do not serve Therrian. But, along with the angels of Protection, many of them are put to work healing. Angels of Flowers and Protections are likely to find themselves sent to one of the many disaster areas, in hastily arranged medical Roles, trying to help the hurting while they are still taking cram courses in the Song of Healing and mundane medical skills. * * * * * * * Roleplaying seed: Deserting At almost any time during the Tribulation, PCs of either side can be engaged in helping mortals defect from one side to the other. For politicians, diplomats, spies, and soldiers, these will be for-real defections into or out of Therrian's rule. For more ordinary folk, it may be a matter of sneaking into or out of the "recovery zones," acquiring or losing a paper trail. These adventures can, of course, happen with or without celestials or Soldiers involved. * * * * * * * Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 09:50:23 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> 'Houston, we have outright fanboyishness...' damienw@juno.com wrote: > If you go to the other extreme and hew to Gaiman, fitting IN > around the edges, all of the Endless are kind of super-Ethereals, > mostly unconcerned with the matters of the celestials except where > they cross their province. > In this second version of the IN/Endless universe, it's entirely > possible that Blandine and Beleth were two of the three "dream > gods" that Dream killed when they thought to take his domain. Here's my own take on the Endless in IN: In "Season of Mists," Dream acknowledges frankly that Lucifer is much more powerful than he, though even then, in the event of his death, he says a new manifestation of himself will emerge from the dreaming. He is pretty unconcerned about demons. He is respectful to angels, though that may be because of their office rather than their inherent power. Putting all that together, along with IN angels and demons being in the same power range, I'd say that Dream and the other Endless are between Lucifer, on the one hand, and angels and demons, on the other, in power, their power relative to Superiors being iffy. But Superiors die. The Endless only "die," and return in new forms, strongly suggesting they have the edge on Superiors. So, I'd make the Endless either grossly powerful, "ArchPrimal" Ethereal spirits, far older than humanity or even Earth, or I'd make them a separate breed of Superior-grade celestial, neither Archangel nor Demon Prince. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 13:32:28 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> "And I Feel Fine" -- Part 2: High Heaven Charles Phipps wrote: > I want you to know how much I love this series Thank you. > 1. We ever get any statement on Uriel's metholody of war with > ethereals? > > 2. Will our Appollyon figure if he shows up be what lucifer's > been working on in the Lower Hells for sometime? Both of these issues will be addressed in the course of the series, to one degree or another. You understand, I don't want to give away too much ahead of schedule. By the way, I've tried to mail off part 3 twice, today, with no visible result. If I see this message come back on the list in a few minutes, I'll try for the third time. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 11:47:13 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> "And I Feel Fine" -- Part 2: High Heaven I want you to know how much I love this series and while I'm not particularly a Left Behind fan (just get on with the Apcolypse already!) the bizzare interpretations work quite well here and the Apolypse seems to be working right on schedule. Your statement about old attunements ceasing to work while others perhaps jump starting (Knowledge to the Word of the Metatron take one) was very good and I loved the initial killing of Belial....yeah good for Gabby. I do have a couple of question regarding that... 1. We ever get any statement on Uriel's metholody of war with ethereals? 2. Will our Appollyon figure if he shows up be what lucifer's been working on in the Lower Hells for sometime? - -Charlemagne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 09:50:23 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> 'Houston, we have outright fanboyishness...' damienw@juno.com wrote: > If you go to the other extreme and hew to Gaiman, fitting IN > around the edges, all of the Endless are kind of super-Ethereals, > mostly unconcerned with the matters of the celestials except where > they cross their province. > In this second version of the IN/Endless universe, it's entirely > possible that Blandine and Beleth were two of the three "dream > gods" that Dream killed when they thought to take his domain. Here's my own take on the Endless in IN: In "Season of Mists," Dream acknowledges frankly that Lucifer is much more powerful than he, though even then, in the event of his death, he says a new manifestation of himself will emerge from the dreaming. He is pretty unconcerned about demons. He is respectful to angels, though that may be because of their office rather than their inherent power. Putting all that together, along with IN angels and demons being in the same power range, I'd say that Dream and the other Endless are between Lucifer, on the one hand, and angels and demons, on the other, in power, their power relative to Superiors being iffy. But Superiors die. The Endless only "die," and return in new forms, strongly suggesting they have the edge on Superiors. So, I'd make the Endless either grossly powerful, "ArchPrimal" Ethereal spirits, far older than humanity or even Earth, or I'd make them a separate breed of Superior-grade celestial, neither Archangel nor Demon Prince. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 11:57:28 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> "And I Feel Fine" -- Part 3: The First Horseman "Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, "Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?" But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. Then one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals." -- Revelation 5:1-5 * * * * * * * Roleplaying seed: Conversion Experiences It rapidly becomes obvious to everyone in Heaven that Christianity is true. But *how* true? And what *kind* of Christianity? The returnees from the Upper Heavens include plenty of humans and angels who used to be of other faiths, but none of them have useful information on these questions. What, then, should angels do concerning their human Soldiers and servants? Almost everyone on Earth is having a rough time, right now. Theological debate doesn't attract a lot of interest. But looking for spiritual strength is another matter. Look for it *where*? * * * * * * * "And the dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name. The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority." -- Revelation 13:1-2 * * * * * * * Even Lucifer is taken in, at least briefly, by Michael's ruse. He decides the time is right to move one of his pawns forward on the world's chessboard. This is an extraordinary man, a Soldier of Lucifer who started with seven Forces, and to whom Lucifer has added three more for a total of ten: The Soldier, one Cezar Therrian, was given the Forces and Resonnances of a balseraph, a lilim, and an impudite. All these resonnances are very useful in his career as a UN diplomat. The UN is in ruins. The UN building in New York City is simply gone, along with most of the rest of New York, and a large chunk of its bureaucracy is dead, in various catastrophes around the world. This includes the Secretary General. Therrian moves from diplomatic background to foreground with supernal speed and becomes the new UN Secretary General, saving the UN from oblivion and re-convening the Security Council in Rome, which is relatively untouched, just beyond the general disaster area that is the eastern Mediterranean. He declares that world-wide disaster relief has to be the UN's sole concern and publically begs for the help of the member nations. Privately, he pulls in geases. He begins laying the foundations for his future empire. Therrian is, of course, the Antichrist. Lucifer has read Revelation, too, and he knows full well that the Antichrist only comes into play in the End Times. And he wasn't going to start the End Times when it looked like he could lose. But now, with Michael apparently out of the way, it looks like the crucial prophecies cannot be fulfilled for Heaven. Even so, Lucifer is being cautious. Therrian is under orders to found his empire slowly. It isn't like there's a hurry. Heaven looks like it is in disarray, Michael looks gone, and Therrian has plenty of personal time, already being over 170 years old, thanks to his command of various Songs. * * * * * * * "I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, "Come!" I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest." - -- Revelation 6:1-2 * * * * * * * Lucifer's caution is wise. that's why it can't be allowed to continue. Gabriel was always the spark of divine inspiration. Of course, *divine* inspiration is not a good thing for Hell. From her place by the Throne, she fans the flame of Therrian's ambition. There is an elegant office in the Vatican. Here, the turmoil of the aching world does not show. This office has been put at the disposal of the UN Secretary General, while he reorganizes that world body. He writes on a laptop, placed on a baroque desk two hundred times older than it is. Suddenly, there is another man in the room, in severe formal dress, looking young, fair, and human, though he is none of those things. Lucifer: "My son, what are you doing? That order you are composing is the founding of a world empire, no matter how you couch it in terms of humble service to suffering humanity." Therrian (concealing the dread he always feels at these meetings, and the additional shock of realizing -- again -- how closely he is watched): "My Father, is this not your plan for us?" Lucifer: "Yes, but not yet. We must verify the reports from the battlefield." Therrian: "Have you not personally interrogated Belial's own surviving captains? (All of them spirits more intelligent than their late master.) Father, the world is ripe. With every day we wait, the nations recover another step from Gabriel's death-throes. They become that much harder to subdue." The debate goes back and forth, but in the end the Tempter is tempted. He decides that, even if all his old foes are not dead, some must be, and the rest must be much weakened. Then best to strike quickly. He agrees to Therrian's plan. The next morning, Therrian announces the creation of myriads of "recovery zones" in the world's remaining population centers. There, food, shelter, and medical care will be supplied to all who come. And there, UN troops and other armed forces under UN control will maintain order. All in a spirit of humanitarian aid. At his side, in the background as he makes the announcement, stands a bald, hatchet-faced figure in dark, vaguely clerical garb. It is Kronos, in the Role of Therrian's "spiritual advisor." * * * * * * * Roleplaying seed: The Beast at His Best Angelic PCs *know* who Therrian is, and what he's doing. What do they do about it? Do they tell their human servants and friends? Start organizing resistance? So far, there is no Archangelic direction, and *so* *far*, Therrian is doing little but good in the world. How do they react to human street-theologians denouncing Therrian as the Antichrist? (This is bound to happen, without any celestial assistance at all. It has happened many times before with far less provocation. They just happen to be right this time.) Angels who decide to cooperate with the UN recovery effort, for the time being, may be discomfitted to find themselves working along side demons. Angels who decide to resist immediately will be looked at askance by perfectly benign humans who wonder what their problem with Therrian is. * * * * * * * Roleplaying seed: Flower Arrangements What are angels of Flowers to do, come Armageddon? It becomes more important than ever that they foster peace, so long as it is between those who do not serve Therrian. But, along with the angels of Protection, many of them are put to work healing. Angels of Flowers and Protections are likely to find themselves sent to one of the many disaster areas, in hastily arranged medical Roles, trying to help the hurting while they are still taking cram courses in the Song of Healing and mundane medical skills. * * * * * * * Roleplaying seed: Deserting At almost any time during the Tribulation, PCs of either side can be engaged in helping mortals defect from one side to the other. For politicians, diplomats, spies, and soldiers, these will be for-real defections into or out of Therrian's rule. For more ordinary folk, it may be a matter of sneaking into or out of the "recovery zones," acquiring or losing a paper trail. These adventures can, of course, happen with or without celestials or Soldiers involved. * * * * * * * Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 10:09:30 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> "And I Feel Fine" -- Part 2: High Heaven David Edelstein wrote: > What about the Grigori? Or is that coming later? Oh, yes, don't worry. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 14:41:32 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Off-Topic: Mailing List Archives At 8:51 PM -0700 6/26/01, Peter Eng wrote: >For the past few days, the mailing list archives have been coming up with >a "page not found" error. > >Can somebody e-mail me with a suggestion on who to bother about this? Me. Then I go bother marq (The Esteemed Miracle-Worker, Mr. Cogan) about it. O:> Which I've done. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2279 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2001 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.