From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Jul 10 18:32:16 2001 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA18124 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 18:32:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id SAA21041 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 18:31:47 -0500 Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 18:31:47 -0500 Message-Id: <200107102331.SAA21041@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #2295 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, July 10 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2295 In this digest: IN> T-Shirt Updates... IN> missing archives Re: IN> In Nomine vs. WoD RE: IN> World of Darkness/In Nomine crossover pt 1 Re: IN> missing archives Fwd: RE: IN> In Nomine vs. WoD Fwd: RE: IN> World of Darkness/In Nomine crossover pt 1 RE: IN> World of Darkness/In Nomine crossover pt 1 IN> Re: Angel Feathers Re: Fwd: RE: IN> In Nomine vs. WoD Re: IN> T-Shirt Updates... IN> WoD/In Nomine Re: IN> How to seduce your Archangel/demon prince IN> cheesey chat up lines, was> How to seduce your.. RE: IN> In Nomine vs. WoD Re: Fwd: RE: IN> World of Darkness/In Nomine crossover pt 1 Re: IN> T-Shirt Updates... Re: IN> WoD / IN vignette Re: IN> T-Shirt Updates... Re: IN> T-Shirt Updates... Re: IN> WoD / IN vignette Re: IN> T-Shirt Updates... Re: IN> WoD / IN vignette ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 14:45:42 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> T-Shirt Updates... This was on the .innomine board (of Pyramid; remember, $15 a year to s u b scribe to it! ): >Subject: Re: In Nomine T-Shirts > Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 08:20:54 -0500 > From: "Michelle Barrett" > >> >>A little bird told me that there is/has been an ongoing rant about >> >>In-Nomine t-shirts. If someone will clue me in as to the details, >> >>I'll see what I can do about it. > >> It was on the mailing list -- and not a rant, but someone asking >> what the licensing issues would be, to print some T-shirts with >> things like, "I am NOT a Balseraph!" or "Malakim - Paladins in >> Black Leather" on them. O:> > >Thanks, Beth! It'll take me a couple of days to pin down licensing issues, >which I'll then forward to this group and Beth. The other alternative, >doing them in-house, is still viable. My minimum order (with the printers) >for t-shirts is 72. If I get at or near that number of serious requests for >a particular design, I'll arrange for it to be available. If you ever have >any questions (or suggestions) about what Warehouse 23 carries, please don't >hesitate to drop me a note. Thanks! > >Michelle >Warehouse 23 Manager >www.warehouse23.com >michelle@sjgames.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 11:31:13 -0700 From: Tony Zbaraschuk Subject: IN> missing archives Anyone know what happened to the missing list archives? The links from the SJG In Nomine site go to Limbo. Tony Z - -- "The King with half the East at heel is marched from lands of morning; His fighters drink the rivers up, their shafts benight the air, And he that stays will die for naught, and home there's no returning." The Spartans on the sea-wet rock sat down and combed their hair.--A.E. Housman ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 14:55:02 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine vs. WoD At 3:01 PM -0400 7/10/01, Kish Moore wrote: ><powerful than any starting level WoD creature, including the Garou.>> > >Now that surprises me. Relative to humans in each world, the angel is not >more powerful than the Garou in the two original games. How many points are >starting angel characters usually created with in GURPS In Nomine? You get your Choir/Band, and your Superior (thus your Choir/Band Attunement and Dissonance Conditions), and then 100 extra points to customize with. (Celestials start out with +4 to each stat, and all the other advantages as per normal.) There's some other point-cost suggestions in a box, for different ways to balance them, if a GM just _has_ to have the points total up to the same things at the beginning of the game. (Me, I figure that the original isn't "balanced" (Cherubim of Fire vs. Kyriotates of Lightning, anyone?), so why pretend? O:> I forget what the GURPS W:TA suggested point totals for character creation were. Somewhere in the 400's? I think that's around the range for GIN celestials. Though a goodly chunk of the Werewolf point totals is to pay for multiform, which is an unholy gawdawful mess, IMO. GURPS has not yet, IMO, come up with an elegant way to have multiple forms. (This includes vessels; but at least vessels are _simple_, if not as elegant as we could wish.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 15:01:14 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: RE: IN> World of Darkness/In Nomine crossover pt 1 At 9:33 PM -0600 7/9/01, Julian Mensch wrote: [...] >Bringing in >angels and demons, making them /more/ powerful than they are in >their own games and treating the other WoD races as insignificant >in relation to them is a sure way to get your players to dismiss >IN as a huge flaming ball of munchkin cheese. Besides, it's easy to have a subtle "celestials are powerful" trick: celestials, typically, Don't Stay Dead. Put 'em in Trauma, and after a few months (depending), they're _back_, and they're _peeved_. Even if they were as crunchy as mere mortals, that could lend itself to a nice little supernatural horror show. Which might, come to think of it, be an interesting way to treat a crossover. _Lower_ celestial stats vs. the WoD inhabitants a bit, though keeping them slightly above mere mortals, keep the "fraggin' hard to kill" aspect, and let them Keep Coming Back... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 15:38:14 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> missing archives At 11:31 AM -0700 7/10/01, Tony Zbaraschuk wrote: >Anyone know what happened to the missing list archives? The links >from the SJG In Nomine site go to Limbo. Yup. I checked on this a while back, and that is _exactly_ the problem. Due to technical difficulties, the machine that housed the archives was taken off-line. When will it be back up? Dunno -- depends on the priorities of the webmaster. Perhaps sending large chocolate boxes to SJGames, with "attn: webmaster" and little notes attached would help. Dunno. It's a problem, but it's in the queue. O:/ If someone needs a _specific_ post, or short thread, I can try to look for it. I need a _good_ keyword to run a search on, though -- "Malakim" will not cut it. Further, it has to be _one_ keyword, and it has to be exact. A few words together will also work. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 15:54:05 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Fwd: RE: IN> In Nomine vs. WoD >Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 11:38:23 -0500 >Subject: BOUNCE in_nomine-l@lists.io.com: Non-member submission from [ranma ] > >Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 11:40:33 -0500 >From: ranma >Subject: RE: IN> In Nomine vs. WoD > >>===== Original Message From Omentide ===== >>I have been working in In Nomine WoD games for some time. Mostly playing >>around with the concepts trying to get them to fit, and the changes this >>potentially makes in the relationships between various groups or how they >>ally with the new additions. For instance: >> >>Do some within Hell link up with the Kindred who are afterall damned? > >Ahh, but from an IN perspective, the Kindred are not necessarily damned. >Unlike In Nomine vampires, they didn't give themselves to Hell to become >vampires, but rather in the vast majority of cases, had the status of vampire >forced on them. Hell would certainly want to encourage vampires to regard >themselves as damned, as it would make them easier to recruit, but to be truly >damned, you have to achieve your Fate, and that has to happen by your own >actions. > >>How does certain elements in Heaven regard Mages? Might they be seen by >>some as sorcerers? >> >It would depend on the faction and the superior. Most superiors would like >the Celestial Chorus for obvious reasons. Jordi probably wouldn't like most >of them any more than he likes any humans. Jean probably tried to help the >Technocracy in its early days and has come to regret it. The Nephandi would >be high on Heaven's 'kill them all' list. > > >>What allegiances are there between Heaven and the Garou? Jordi, >>Novalis. At the same time how might the Black Furies react to a patriarch. >> >Most of heaven would probably see the Garou as deluded at best, and worthy of >destruction at worst. After all, they're all Pagan Soldiers. If you had a >Purity Crusade in an In Nomine/WOD universe, Uriel would have targetted the >Garou as Public Enemy #1 because of how powerful of servants of the Ethereals >they are. (Which provides a good explanation for why the Garou are so hard >pressed today...the Purity Crusade slaughtered them and they never recovered). > Jordi would likely want to try to sway them to his service, and sometimes >help them out. Novalis would see most of them as far too mindlessly violent >to want anything to do with them, despite a common interest in protecting >nature. Although she may have made some quiet contacts with the Children of >Gaia. > >>How does the Ubmra equate to the Ethereal realm (Marches)? What effect >>does this have on Blandine and Beleth? >> >The Purity Crusade was much more of a failure in the Ethereal realm in the WOD >than in a standard In Nomine Universe. Blandine and Beleth may pretend to >dominate it, but they're in over their heads. > > >>Conversely does allowing Heaven or Hell to know of Vampires or Garou >>constitute breaking the Masquerade or veil? If not, why not? Unless >>Angels and Demons accept a similar code of secretiveness then it probably >>does constitute a break. >> >Given Angels and Demons don't tell mortals about themselves, they wouldn't be >blowing the cover of the Vampires or Garou, either, so this wouldn't count as >a breach. > >>How do you fit the Technocracy into the picture? >> >As itself. Magi who use technological foci. No fancy stuff needed. Jean >probably helped to influence the movement in its early days, then saw it go >out of his control and go atheist, much to his regret. > >>I have tended to think on lines of Wyrm = Hell. Weaver = Heaven, >>interesting since the weaver is mad and so is Gabriel. >> >Heaven would want to splat the Weaver just as much as the Wyrm. Out of >control Ethereals are not part of God's plan. And any souls that fall under >the Weaver's sway are denied the ability to go on to Heaven. So the Weaver, >the Wyrm, and the Wyld, they all need to die. The sooner the better. > >John Biles > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 15:54:08 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Fwd: RE: IN> World of Darkness/In Nomine crossover pt 1 >Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 14:01:09 -0500 >Subject: BOUNCE in_nomine-l@lists.io.com: Non-member submission from [ranma ] > >Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 14:03:23 -0500 >From: ranma >Subject: RE: IN> World of Darkness/In Nomine crossover pt 1 > >>===== Original Message From Elizabeth McCoy ===== >>At 9:33 PM -0600 7/9/01, Julian Mensch wrote: >>[...] >>>Bringing in >>>angels and demons, making them /more/ powerful than they are in >>>their own games and treating the other WoD races as insignificant >>>in relation to them is a sure way to get your players to dismiss >>>IN as a huge flaming ball of munchkin cheese. >> >>Besides, it's easy to have a subtle "celestials are powerful" trick: >>celestials, typically, Don't Stay Dead. Put 'em in Trauma, and after >>a few months (depending), they're _back_, and they're _peeved_. Even >>if they were as crunchy as mere mortals, that could lend itself to >>a nice little supernatural horror show. >> >>Which might, come to think of it, be an interesting way to treat >>a crossover. _Lower_ celestial stats vs. the WoD inhabitants a bit, >>though keeping them slightly above mere mortals, keep the "fraggin' >>hard to kill" aspect, and let them Keep Coming Back... >> > >If one looks at the actual stat scale of In Nomine, the upper limit of humans >is 10, the upper limit of Celestials is only 2 points higher, 12, unless one >is a Superior. In Storyteller terms, the max for Joe Human is a 5. One could >thus say that the max stat for Celestials would be a 6. The average Celestial >would, in theory, have a 6 in all stats in In Nomine, and thus a 3 average >under Storyteller rules. > >Thus, Elder Vampires, Crinos Form werewolves, etc, Could have stats superior >to any Angel short of a Superior. (For example, a 5th generation Brujah might >have a strength of 8 in Storyteller terms, which would seem to translate to a >16 in In Nomine terms). > >Angels would have to walk softly, but as Elizabeth pointed out, have the big >advantage that like a horror movie serial killer, they keep coming BACK. :) >And of course, they'd drive Mages crazy by not generating paradox :) > >John Biles > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 12:43:00 -0700 From: Sean McCarthy Subject: RE: IN> World of Darkness/In Nomine crossover pt 1 Our spies report that at 03:01 PM 7/10/2001 -0400, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >At 9:33 PM -0600 7/9/01, Julian Mensch wrote: >[...] > >Bringing in > >angels and demons, making them /more/ powerful than they are in > >their own games and treating the other WoD races as insignificant > >in relation to them is a sure way to get your players to dismiss > >IN as a huge flaming ball of munchkin cheese. > >Besides, it's easy to have a subtle "celestials are powerful" trick: >celestials, typically, Don't Stay Dead. Put 'em in Trauma, and after >a few months (depending), they're _back_, and they're _peeved_. Even >if they were as crunchy as mere mortals, that could lend itself to >a nice little supernatural horror show. Especially you should play up the undetectability of the celestials, the multiple vessels problem...and in particular, the naughtyness of angelic resonance. Especially keep in mind that vampires are evil things while werewolves are tied (hard) into ethereal religions. Likely if they knew of angels they would be afraid.. That's if you want them at PC power level. I found angels (or the implication thereof) to work great in my Vampire game. They only ever saw one angel, which was a throwaway gag from Warehouse 23, but they did gain hold of an angel's feather. That one feather would blast any vampire who tried to touch it quite severely. (Potentially multiple unsoakable aggravated hits, for those who know the system.) This left them quite afraid as to what a whole collection of said feathers would do. IDEA! I'll put it in a seperate mail. (It will be entirely a new thread.) Sean ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 16:03:16 -0400 From: Marc Bowden Subject: IN> Re: Angel Feathers - --On Tuesday, July 10, 2001 12:43 PM -0700 Sean McCarthy wrote: > > IDEA! I'll put it in a seperate mail. (It will be > entirely a new thread.) > Please don't build what I think you're going to build. Marc. Just Marc. Elohite Angel of Salvation ("If you need me, I'll be cowering under my desk.") ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 16:07:57 -0400 From: "S.D." Subject: Re: Fwd: RE: IN> In Nomine vs. WoD >>>How do you fit the Technocracy into the picture? >>> >>As itself. Magi who use technological foci. No fancy stuff needed. Jean >>probably helped to influence the movement in its early days, then saw it go >>out of his control and go atheist, much to his regret. Actually, I've been debating ways to get three of my M:tA characters into In Nomine (not as a game, more for a fiction idea, though I did come up with the basics of translating the Storyteller system to IN's d666...), and as one of them is a Technocrat, this came up. The Order of Reason was likely a group of Soldiers of Jean and sympathizers, that grew into the Technocratic Union. But look at the technocratic *groups* for a second. New World Order: Nybbas and Marc are likely fighting tooth and nail over these guys, with Asmodeus and Dominic as respective tag-team partners. (Actually, most Mercurians and Impudites probably are - those two just come to mind instantly.) The NWO controls/influences the media and a good deal of Sleeper politics, and they're a good deal less *violent* than many of the others. But their Operatives and MiBs *are* Gamesters/Dominicans. Syndicate: Marc and Mammon. Need I say more? Progenitors: Does anyone else remember that 'Superior Victory: Jean and Jordi' bit someone wrote up? IIRC, they wound up heavy on the biotech - like Progenitors. Novalis, Fleurity, and Vapula likely add to the mix as well. Maybe Eli. Iteneration X: Jean and Vapula are fighting over them, but IMO Vapula's winning. If not for Autocthonia (sp?), I'd say they're all Soldiers of those two. As is, I suspect Kyriotates of Lightning and Shedim of Technology are getting into it. Void Engineers: Oddly enough, Blandine and Lilith are the patrons of the Engineers, and they're working together on this. Think about it. Virtual Adepts: The only ones who *don't* have a Superior as a direct patron. Orc, Kyriotate of Lightning and Angel of Networks, handles these guys. Hello Digital Web... Sons of Ether: Vapula. This isn't even being *contested* by anyone. It's Vapula. Which offers interesting ideas...namely, if a Tradition is being handled by a Prince, and the Technocracy was *started* by an Archangel, which one's really in the right? Traditions or Technocracy...Heaven or Hell? ~S.D. Ryukage http://fly.to/sd_nexus ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Freedom always seems to come at a cost, and the more the freedom, the higher the cost. And what would true freedom cost me, I wonder? Probably more than I would ever want to pay. Sheyrena an Treves, 'Elvenblood' ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 16:38:11 -0400 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> T-Shirt Updates... >>Thanks, Beth! It'll take me a couple of days to pin down licensing issues, >>which I'll then forward to this group and Beth. The other alternative, >>doing them in-house, is still viable. My minimum order (with the printers) >>for t-shirts is 72. If I get at or near that number of serious requests for >>a particular design, I'll arrange for it to be available. If you ever have >>any questions (or suggestions) about what Warehouse 23 carries, please don't >>hesitate to drop me a note. Thanks! >> >>Michelle >>Warehouse 23 Manager >>www.warehouse23.com >>michelle@sjgames.com Hmm... 72 T-shirts.... I dunno if we'll get that many orders purely from people speaking up on the list, and I have no idea how accurate my personal opinion is that they'd sell like hotcakes at cons and elsewhere. :^) I'm still open for CafePress and will wait patiently for further results. If you *are* thinking about doing a design or two in-house, the one I definitely want is still "I'm the / ANGEL / the / DEVIL / warned you about", with "The 8th Virtue / Malakim Choir Glyph / Malakite Convention 2001" on the back. William ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 16:48:56 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> WoD/In Nomine > I have been working in In Nomine WoD games for some time. Mostly playing > around with the concepts trying to get them to fit, and the changes this > potentially makes in the relationships between various groups or how they > ally with the new additions. For instance: Cool thoughts. > Do some within Hell link up with the Kindred who are afterall damned? Vampires are not so necessarily damned but they are the ultimate temptation to do so...basically weighing ultimate power, pleasure, and your own life vs. the only redemption you may have which could be suicide or it might not be. The fact that this curse in the WoD was laid by God (it's best to have angels believe the standard party line on this I think) is disquieting to the extreme to angels. "God said whoever lays a ahnd on caine shall be punished seven times over...." The Baali of course would be a completely corrupted infernal cult with some wanting to keep certain demons imprisoned on the mortal world that way while an alliance between the Sabbat/Black hand and servants of Lilith Lilith might be appropriate. Laurence's angels I suspect hunt vampires well as did Uriel, Michael, and Gabriel's vampires before them. > How does certain elements in Heaven regard Mages? Might they be seen by > some as sorcerers? Mages I suspect are viewed by Heaven with a distinctly jaundiced eye as they are mortals who for all their power and good intentions are extremely arrogant and descended from Lilith with her temperment infecting them to the extreme. To that end Laurence or Dominic might influence soldiers from the Celestial Choir whom he dictates instructions to, Jean might have secret allies in the Technocracy or more likely soldiers of the Sons of Ether and Virtual Adepts (the Cyber Gnosticists might have been revealed by them), and other beings visited by their avatars...Demons probably love corrupting them into Nephandi and are likely the most prolific recruiters. But for the most part I imagine Heaven looks at them with a jaundiced eye....afte all heaven is concerned with dealing with 5,000,000,000 beings not just the 1 million or so supernaturals more than anything. Just really bigger more powerful cults of Sorcerors for good or for ill. > What allegiances are there between Heaven and the Garou? Jordi, > Novalis. At the same time how might the Black Furies react to a patriarch. The idea of the Garou being completely ethereal beings gives them the most spiritual meaning as the Black Furies hatred of the Patriarch (the idea of an ethereal representation of God breaks cannon but is amusing to the extreme) is quite interesting and might be a reflection of Lilim influence. The Children of Gaia might have Angels of Novalis allies and Baal might actually be routinely confused with the Beast of War. For the most part the Garou treat spirits of Heaven as weaver or Gaian spirits I think....unaligned to gaia but not necessarily hostile. I did however toy with the idea that all totems of the Garou are actually Jordi and his allies and that many centuries ago Jordi gave leave for his angels to cloak themselves in the skins of human vessels that they were bound with forever.... the Impergium and worse were Jordi not listening to the Michael regarding humans... (The key in In Nomine WoD is to not pull a "Black Hand" which is gamerspeak for creating an organization which magically is responsible for everything and not only corrupts human free will but all other supernaturals....the Garou, Vampires, etc need free will as much as humans in In Nomine) > How does the Ubmra equate to the Ethereal realm (Marches)? What effect > does this have on Blandine and Beleth? I gave my opinion that the Marches are really just Heaven's way of subdivision, the Shadowlands to the Dreaming to the Umbra are all part of the Marches.... The rule of four is "Heaven/Hell/Earth/Everything else" Blandine and Beleth are thus in charge of monumental tasks of watching over the Gauntlet, Shadowlands, Mythic beasts, etc in addition to monitoring and promoting humanity's dreams. Beleth's alliance with powerful wyrm creatures, Nephandi, and the Formorians probably makes her a formidable evil even if such evils are so mindnumbingly horrofic it is hard to imagine she can control them... but control them she does. > Many other WoD creatures fit pretty well, Changelings = Ethereals. Wraiths > = souls who refuse to 'go to the light'. Mummy???? Not read it yet. Humans ressurected with Songs at their disposal and a very old Mummy spirit that provides them with memories of the past. Formed from "lost spirits" as ethereal soldiers who crumble to ahses if they violate their carefully placed restrictures. > Conversely does allowing Heaven or Hell to know of Vampires or Garou > constitute breaking the Masquerade or veil? If not, why not? Unless > Angels and Demons accept a similar code of secretiveness then it probably > does constitute a break. I enjoy the "Vampires on Garou method" which basically means Vampires do not allow Garou to know them and i no way can they enforce their codes of secrecy or power on the werewolves nor vice versa. Angels are still powerful omnipotent entities to Vampires even if a vampire can pound for pound match an angel.... Vampires won't believe the odl minister down the street is an angel until he judges him worthy of death and cuts his head from his body and every one of his ghouls. A Garou of the Wendigo who follows a "Native American" holy man on the Path of Peace is risking like the Mage and Vampire of his companions ostracism from his kin. in effect by joining Angelic society as a soldier they cast asie their natural societies to join angelic.... > How does the concept of Humanity from VtM fit. What about Discord and > Dissonance? I think adapting of straight In Nomine rules for falling work though most could learn a lesson or two about dissonance from Humanity rules in Vampire. > How do you fit the Technocracy into the picture? This is the most direct rip off I had in my game which I used for Mage... The Technocracy's "seal" in my game is that of Uriel's sword surounded by Latin from Rome that says "United in One Order for a Pure Spirit, Pure World, and Pure Thought." I was thinking the Messangers might be viewed in an In Nomine game as the Lost Angels of Uriel in the Tsaydim who seem to be appearing in far greater numbers since the Purity Crusade...the Technocracy along with the Inquisition and the thousands of angels descending on the Umbra causing the Shattering was aided and directed by Uriel. Certainly he didn't control it but the Archangel of Purity in his "greatest acomplishment" visited leaders among mages, mortals, and bestowed "gifts" upon those who had already taken the fight. It required moving the Purity Crusade to the 1100s but the idea Uriel was behind the Shattering was too brillant a connection to miss. The idea he may be returning for Round 2 is actually very firghtning to angels. - -Charlie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 16:50:48 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: Re: IN> How to seduce your Archangel/demon prince Anyone got any thoughts on how to Seduce... Gabriel Zadkiel Khalid Beleth and Saminga!?! (it beter involve a Zamboni or Anita Blake) - -Charlie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 21:12:31 -0000 From: "cassandra benner" Subject: IN> cheesey chat up lines, was> How to seduce your.. well i dont know about seduction, but bad chat up lines.... >From: "Charles Phipps" >Anyone got any thoughts on how to Seduce... >Gabriel "Heya baby, i burn for you" >Zadkiel "let me hold you, for you are to precious to break" >Khalid "i have as much love and passion for you as you have faith" >Beleth (old sadomasachist joke) Masochist: Hurt me Sadist: No *G* >and Saminga "I have killed untold amounts for you, and you slay me with your eyes, i want to die in your arms, let us die tonight a thousand litle deaths in passion* (old french joke of orgasm meaning little death) >-Charlie Cass - -There is no such thing as an atheist in a foxhole- Murphy's Law, Combatants Edition. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 15:21:42 -0600 From: "Julian Mensch" Subject: RE: IN> In Nomine vs. WoD << Thanks for the link to the In Nomine conversion setting. In truth I'm not at all intimidated by combining the settings of the two worlds. Indeed I am actually fairly sure that the two settings are close enough in concept that a Dark In Nomine world can add several important things to the WoD and vice versa. >> The biggest barrier _for me_ is that in the WoD, the Greater Questions are left unanswered, whereas in IN, most PCs have clear, objective answers to most of the big issues. << Well frankly I'm glad your not one of my players. >> I hope nothing I said offended. It's cool that you have a really clear game concept, and cooler still that you like Changeling. (You can't hate me, damnit! Changeling fans are too rare for disputes! :) You were talking about introducing WoD players to IN, and I just wanted to mention why your approach might have a negative impact on the game, from my perspective. The "respect the WoD" thing came from the history of WW on this list. Check the archives if you want to know what I'm talking about. << I'm primarily a Star Wars player with Mage: The Ascension player and Vampire the Masquerade comming second. Unfortunately In nomine suffers from what I like to refer to as "Changeling the Dreaming" syndrome which is that the games are very well done and intriguing in concept but suffered from a very poor initial run which has created a very loyal fanbase but a stagnant one with usually many players but few groups. I like to resolve my difficulty with games online as I have done so having a 3 year Changeling the Dreaming game on White Wolf's own forums with 7 adventures successfully one (slow forums), and a wonderful PBEM under Charles E. Smith (the game "Turning Point" is mostly talk and speculation rather than combat though I won't complain since the causalties are higher than the Final Trumpet it seems sometimes-a great work). >> Again, I'm very sorry for misreading your message as lacking in interest/understanding of the WoD. Peace, kay? << I intend to run In nomine with WoD rules as basically "powerful angelic beings" descending o the Earth and struggling with the fact they can't change the world overtly despite their power. It will be done in WoD format truth be told. >> Ah. You could always say that Hell is winning, and so most angelic Servitors are dead, and only Word-bound and above remain. Alternately, perhaps the Shattering barred angels from Earth, and only a few specially-selected (and thus /powerful/) angels can be 'inserted' on Earth. (Perhaps they are Hunter's "Messangers"...) Lots of neat possibilities. << I won't trash the WoD as they are my favorite games (after In Nomine) but the thought of Werewolf and Wraith being...ugh those games gives me headaches just thinking of it. I tried playing a Werewolf spiritual game but found my players were far too interested in playing the hack'n'slash primordial aspect to do anything overt so I finally switched over to mage where it worked much better. Attempts also to fit human deities into it failed abysmally as my players considered such things weak and abysmal instead of part of the Umbra and Gaia's people... >> Werewolf suffers from 'idiot players' syndrome. That said, when you get some good players, the tribal culture and pagan spirituality aspects really come out. IMO, Werewolf is the most spiritually complex RPG on the market, but that's just me. Wraith, OTOH, has a lot more subdued, realistic spirituality. You are dead, God is nowhere in sight and the universe seems to be fairly athiestic. It's /hard/ to keep faith in the Wraith universe, which is what makes it so interesting to me. Just like reality, you don't have greater spiritual beings all around you with easy answers. But unlike reality, you /are/ in a situation where metaphysics and spiritual questions really /matter/... << Wraith just wasn't what I wanted in concept. Unfortunately for all of it's beuatiful alien setting it drove home why people don't really enjoy the Afterlife of the Damned....there wasn't really much conflict between the physical world and the mortal realm because of the Shroud and the immense restrictions on interaction. I also felt the Shadowlands were too much of a direct departure from Ghosts of Myth. >> This seems to be everyone's complaint. I understand it, but I certainly don't share it. I actually consider the limits on interaction to be fitting and tragic. You're /dead/, after all. It's not like you just gained superpowers, or something. << In truth In Nomine has always seemed to me a spirituality that was superior in WoD because it was able to acturaly tackle the Christianity/Islam/Hell aspect without chickening out as the WoD seems to so routeinly do so save in Vampire: The Masquerade and Dark Ages. It actually took the step of examining Demonic and Angelic psyches and what Heaven/Hell is actually like.... >> I'll grant the demonic/angelic psyches thing, but I don't see much spirituality in typical IN gameplay. It's too focused on "the War" (which should be about swaying humanity to virtue or sin, not thwacking demons, for a more spiritual game) and on witty satire of everything religious. << One of my favorite scenes in a game was where the soul of a player was judged by Kronos vs. Yves after death as his Destinty and Fate were weighed...the angel got a rare view of what truly goes on....it was a magnificent experience. >> This does sound cool... but people rarely play Yves or Kronos' Servitors. Also, the whole reincarnation/Fate/Destiny thing is very detatched from Judeo-Christian theology, and that takes away from the spiritual aspect for me. It doesn't have to be /accurate/, fully, but if a game about angels and demons really wants to explore spirituality, it should at least resemble the theology it's protaganists are drawn from. << But different strokes/folks >> Of course. Best wishes on your game, - -- Julian Mensch ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 14:38:46 -0700 From: "Bevan Thomas" Subject: Re: Fwd: RE: IN> World of Darkness/In Nomine crossover pt 1 Except that a huge amount of people in WoD have a 5 in at least one stat, whereas virtually no human has a 10 in In Nomine. Therefore, a Celestial with 6 in WoD is a lot weaker in comparison with most people then one with 12 in In Nomine. Something to remember. >From: Elizabeth McCoy >Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com >Subject: Fwd: RE: IN> World of Darkness/In Nomine crossover pt 1 >Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 15:54:08 -0400 > > > > >If one looks at the actual stat scale of In Nomine, the upper limit of >humans > >is 10, the upper limit of Celestials is only 2 points higher, 12, unless >one > >is a Superior. In Storyteller terms, the max for Joe Human is a 5. One >could > >thus say that the max stat for Celestials would be a 6. The average >Celestial > >would, in theory, have a 6 in all stats in In Nomine, and thus a 3 >average > >under Storyteller rules. > > _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 14:44:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> T-Shirt Updates... - --- "William J. Keith" wrote: > Hmm... 72 T-shirts.... I dunno if we'll get that many > orders purely from > people speaking up on the list, and I have no idea how > accurate my personal > opinion is that they'd sell like hotcakes at cons and > elsewhere. Let me query the IN LARPers in my area -- that's got to be good for a dozen or so. And if the local gaming con is still alive in this town, I know that I can use them as bait to lure players to a demo. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "Fall down seven times, get up eight." - -- Japanese proverb __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 14:50:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> WoD / IN vignette - --- Omentide wrote: > For the Bright Lady a GURPS scenario for Vampire Niiiiice. And supernatural predators who survive by drinking the blood of the living must show up like neon signs on the Seraph of Fire Attunement. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "Fall down seven times, get up eight." - -- Japanese proverb __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 18:38:53 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> T-Shirt Updates... At 4:38 PM -0400 7/10/01, William J. Keith wrote: >>>Thanks, Beth! It'll take me a couple of days to pin down licensing issues, >>>which I'll then forward to this group and Beth. [...] > >Hmm... 72 T-shirts.... I dunno if we'll get that many orders purely from >people speaking up on the list, [...] Well, she's checking around to see what licensing would require, so hold horses on that one. Either way, I can forward her all the cool slogans that were floated... O:> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 17:37:46 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> T-Shirt Updates... From: "Elizabeth McCoy" > > Well, she's checking around to see what licensing would require, so > hold horses on that one. Either way, I can forward her all the cool > slogans that were floated... O:> Although she must have already seen it on the message board, I feel the need to resubmit my idea of "Malakim: Thou Shalt Not". ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 00:10:19 +0100 From: Omentide Subject: Re: IN> WoD / IN vignette > > > For the Bright Lady a GURPS scenario for Vampire > > Niiiiice. And supernatural predators who survive by >drinking the blood of the living must show up like neon >signs on the Seraph of Fire Attunement. And the real joy is that with the game being aimed at WoD players they will not get the reference to the bright lady. Well not until her Malakim start hurting them lots. Ashley. Ashley and Hilary omentide.omentide@virgin.net http://freespace.virgin.net/omentide.omentide ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 16:11:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> T-Shirt Updates... - --- "William J. Keith" wrote: > If > you *are* thinking about doing a design or two > in-house, the one I > definitely want is still "I'm the / ANGEL / the / > DEVIL / warned you > about", with "The 8th Virtue / Malakim Choir Glyph > / Malakite > Convention 2001" on the back. I want this one, too. Either black on white or white on black: red on black would have a nice feel to it, but then there's a visibility option... Moe ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 06/05/01(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 16:30:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> WoD / IN vignette - --- Omentide wrote: > And the real joy is that with the game being aimed > at WoD players they will > not get the reference to the bright lady. Well not > until her Malakim start > hurting them lots. Bah. :) If I was going to run an WoD/IN crossover (I'm not: the only books I have for the former setting all start with GURPS), _my_ players would be too busy running from Pretty-Shiny-Wing-Flower-Lady-People to worry overmuch about Divine Fire. In fact, that's my advice to anybody planning to run such a crossover: TURN DOWN NOVALIS ABOUT FIVE NOTCHES. As stands, she and hers would go through your average Kindred/Garou like a hot knife through hotter butter... :) Moe ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 06/05/01(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2295 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2001 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.