From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Jul 17 23:43:07 2001 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA00053 for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2001 23:43:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id XAA01101 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 17 Jul 2001 23:43:15 -0500 Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 23:43:15 -0500 Message-Id: <200107180443.XAA01101@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #2305 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, July 17 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2305 In this digest: Re: IN> "And I Feel Fine" - Part 11: The Mark of the Beast Re: IN> Consider Fate... Re: IN> The King in Yellow ("It's not what you thi-ink! It's not what you thi-ink!") Re: IN> Consider Fate... Re: IN> Consider Fate... Re: IN> Consider Fate... Re: IN> Consider Fate... Re: IN> "And I Feel Fine" - Part 11: The Mark of the Beast Re: IN> Consider Fate... Re: IN> Consider Fate... IN> Consider the Lord of fire IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2304 Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2304 Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2304 Re: IN> Re: Seraph of Destiny attunement Re: IN> Re: Seraph of Destiny attunement Re: IN> Re: Seraph of Destiny attunement Re: IN> Hi Re: IN> Consider Fate... IN> Crossword Re: IN> Consider Fate... Re: IN> Re: Seraph of Destiny attunement Re: IN> Re: Seraph of Destiny attunement IN> "And I Feel Fine" hiatus Re: IN> Crossword Re: IN> Consider Fate... Re: IN> Re: Seraph of Destiny attunement IN> Human perceptions, and another theory on Janus/Valefor Re: IN> "And I Feel Fine" - Part 11: The Mark of the Beast Re: IN> Crossword Re: IN> Crossword Re: IN> Consider Fate... IN> The Necronomicon (contents will not cause SAN loss*) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 11:26:53 -0400 From: "Jeffery Watkins" Subject: Re: IN> "And I Feel Fine" - Part 11: The Mark of the Beast You are a genius. Keep them coming, I love this. Great interpretations of scripture into In Nomine. Jeffery _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 10:29:15 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Consider Fate... From: "Erich S. Arendall" > > > They say many things about me. > > ...And all of them good. Excellent work, sir. Now I've just got figure out > how best to use it against my players. :) I would suggest putting angels of Revelation on the case. :) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 12:12:19 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> The King in Yellow ("It's not what you thi-ink! It's not what you thi-ink!") Moe strikes again! A very, well, creative gloss on one of our favorite AAs. >For my next trick, the Necronomicon. Hoody hoo! Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 13:03:36 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> Consider Fate... An alternate origin of Kronos. In the Beginning was the Word. God spoke the universe into existence... and the sound of His voice reverberated throughout Creation, ultimately echoing back from the very end of time, like a shout bouncing back out of a tunnel. And the echo stood before him and said: thou art God... and I am Yves. But if you imagine the created universe as a long tunnel through spacetime, running from the Creation to the end of time, then you must keep in mind that the tunnel... forks. The universe has a Destiny, but it also has a Fate. And God's voice echoed down both those tunnels. And the twisted, distorted echo bouncing back from the left-hand path? We call it Kronos. See how the pieces fit. How do Yves and Kronos know the future? Because they're both, like Merlin, living backwards in time. Why don't they see the future perfectly? Because they're interfering with each other, like a confusing babble of overlapping voices. Why didn't Kronos appear until well after Creation? Because he's a warped and distorted echo, one that didn't bounce all the way back to the source. Why has Yves, who named all things, been unable to identify a being that could possibly have Fallen into Kronos? Because Kronos literally didn't exist before his appearance in Hell; that was the point at which he precipitated out of the future. Yves' fascination with books and knowledge? He's the Word of God. All efforts to name and describe the universe are in some sense part of him. How can Kronos hand out angelic resonances? Warped as he is, he's still the living Word of God too (though he's twisted to the point that he needs the lying Balseraph resonance to make it work). Why do Kronos and Yves battle so intensely? Because in the end -- there's no better way to put this -- There Can Only Be One. The universe must eventually choose, and go down one tunnel or the other. And when it does, either Kronos or Yves will cease to exist. In fact, it's likely that one of them will cease to _ever have_ existed, if that makes sense. How can they both be such optimists? Because they both _know_ that they're going to win; they wouldn't exist unless their side already had won, somewhere further down the tunnel of time. They can intellectually acknowledge the possibility of failure, but how can you truly disbelieve in your own existence? What will ultimately happen to Yves and Kronos? When time ends, they'll cease to be -- having, as it were, unwound themselves backwards. How do they feel about this? Yves is perfectly content and serene; he will have served his purpose, and his monument will be a universe that has fulfilled its Destiny. Kronos, OTOH, is an absolute nihilist at the core. His ultimate goal is to cease to exist and bring the universe down in hideous ruin with him. Yves is filled with God's love for His Creation -- and, in his twisted way, so is Kronos! But Yves' is the love that joyfully lays itself down for its beloved. Kronos' is the twisted obsession of a murder-suicide pact, carried out with a cheap handgun in a dirty motel room. Why does Kronos hate Heaven so? Because every second that the angels continue to struggle is torment for him, keeping him from the Fated consummation that he craves. Why is Yves, in contrast, relatively devoid of hate for Hell? The demons are wrong, but tragically so; they're not a real threat, because Destiny must prevail. He'd save them if he could. Notice that Yves is the only AA who sponsors a force of Redeemers. Kronos' obsession with time? He's twisted Yves' focus on knowledge into something else: a relentless counting down of the days (minutes, microseconds) until that fork in the tunnel is reached, and the Universe proceeds along iron rails of predestination to its Fate. Oh happy day, when it plunges off the cliff at last, and there's nothing left but to savor the free fall before the crash! One consequence of all this: neither Yves nor Kronos can be destroyed until the universe has chosen its Fate or Destiny. They might conceivably be defeated, imprisoned, drastically reduced in power... but they can't be _unmade_, because they always will have existed. Until the universe chooses its Fate or Destiny, they both are the eternal Word of God: created beings can't destroy them, any more than characters in a book can cause the book to burst into flames. This is the real reason Lucifer didn't destroy young Kronos: he couldn't. A secondary consequence: Yves will never Fall, nor Kronos Redeem. They _can't_. It never will hasn't have happened, ever. Thoughts? Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 12:15:16 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Consider Fate... From: "Douglas Muir" > > Thoughts? Beautifully done, although for admittedly selfish reasons I shall stick to my hypothesis. ;;;) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 10:18:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Consider Fate... - --- Douglas Muir wrote: > They > _can't_. It never will hasn't have happened, ever. > > > Thoughts? 1). Nice theory. 2). Time travel does really weird things to English grammar. :) Moe ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 06/05/01(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 13:25:35 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Consider Fate... Douglas Muir wrote: > > An alternate origin of Kronos. ... > Thoughts? An elegant idea. Not only are Yves and Kronos indestructible until the end of time, and immutable in state of grace or disgrace, they are also both intrinsically Wordbound. Neither could possibly have (or be) any other Word than the one they have. I presume the fork in time, at which one or the other prevails, and the other one ceases to be / have been, is Judgement Day or Armageddon. You say that the survivor winks out at the end of time, but (1) so would everything else, wouldn't it? and (2) what if time has no end? (See "And I Feel Fine," part 10, for my own take on the nature of Kronos, and notice that, in part 2, Yves and Metatron are both revealed as two of the seven flames forming the sevenfold spirit of God. Identifying the other five flames is left as an exercise; they *aren't* any of the remaining Archangels.) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 10:27:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> "And I Feel Fine" - Part 11: The Mark of the Beast - --- Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Roleplaying seed: Dermabrasion > > A hellsworn converts. Now, what about that tattoo? If > he has it > removed, can he be back in the Book of Life? Or is he > eternally sunk? > An angel of Destiny might be able to say. What if > someone wants him to > keep it on for a while, to run an undercover mission? > And what if he > dies while on that mission? Is he Saved(tm)? Suppose he > has it removed > and replaced with an exact copy? Does it still count? Interesting questions, all. The reverse situation was dealt with in the sequel to "Like a Thief in the Night," when the un-Raptured believers counterfeited the Mark so that they could buy food and supplies. A scenario like that might also work in this campaign -- with the question, "Is someone who fakes the Mark of the Beast also damned?" ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "Fall down seven times, get up eight." - -- Japanese proverb __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 13:27:46 -0400 From: "Jeffery Watkins" Subject: Re: IN> Consider Fate... >An alternate origin of Kronos. Wow Doug. Your alternative is wonderful, beautiful in a way and fits perfectly with the IN/Crossover game I am running which includes time traveling. Thank you seems so inadequate. Jeffery _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 10:32:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Consider Fate... - --- Douglas Muir wrote: > Kronos' obsession with time? He's twisted Yves' focus on > knowledge into > something else: a relentless counting down of the days > (minutes, > microseconds) until that fork in the tunnel is reached, > and the Universe > proceeds along iron rails of predestination to its Fate. > Oh happy day, > when it plunges off the cliff at last, and there's > nothing left but to > savor the free fall before the crash! That makes perfect sense. > A secondary consequence: Yves will never Fall, nor > Kronos Redeem. They > _can't_. It never will hasn't have happened, ever. Uhhh... ow. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "Fall down seven times, get up eight." - -- Japanese proverb __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 13:42:53 -0400 From: "Charles Phipps" Subject: IN> Consider the Lord of fire I think Belial's perspective is completely Cabbalite. Yes he punishes the Cruel. Why because God and the universe don't have the guts. Theres no delusions about what he does is against God. It's the fact that humanity, the world, and Angel kind deserve to be burned to ashes. Belial I just didn't see as having nothing beyond mindless love of destruction. Instead it's just endless hatred for flaws. Belial is simply the ultimate perfectionist by what I described. Eventually God and Gabriel will be burned away as well. Can you understand now why Gabriel is confused? - -Charlie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 12:43:59 -0500 (CDT) From: Benjamin Acosta Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2304 Quoting in_nomine-digest : > From: Maurice Lane > Subject: IN> The King in Yellow ("It's not what you thi-ink! It's not > what you thi-ink!") > > The fourth enchantment is, of course, the one that > systematically and permanently strips the reader of > all rituals, skills and Attunements (including, of > course, Sorcery - but not Infernal Pact). Cute idea. However, I seem to remember the Corporeal Player's Guide saying that unlike other Attunements, Sorcery can not be stripped from a soul which has it. The soul always has it. A repentent sorceror's only recourses are to just refrain from using sorcerory, no matter what the temptation, or under go a non-infernal reinitiation to reattune his Sorcery. Once a sorceror, always a sorceror. Of course, reading the book still would ruin his day. After all, Sorcery isn't much use without any sorcerous skills or rituals. Looks like it's back to remedial for them. Ben, Elohite of Eli Angel of Neat Ideas ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 13:50:06 -0400 From: Cameron McCurry Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2304 > Cute idea. However, I seem to remember the Corporeal Player's Guide saying that unlike other Attunements, Sorcery can not be stripped from a soul which has it. OK...YOU tell Eli that. -:-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 13:50:06 -0400 From: Cameron McCurry Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #2304 > Cute idea. However, I seem to remember the Corporeal Player's Guide saying that unlike other Attunements, Sorcery can not be stripped from a soul which has it. OK...YOU tell Eli that. -:-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 14:49:41 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: Seraph of Destiny attunement >At 6:25 PM +1100 7/14/01, james walker wrote: > >Another way: in most of the 'modern' world, your true name is the one on >your birth certificate; yet surprisingly few people check what's on it. And one would not _believe_ the weirdnesses that can crop up... (And then you have to drive down a couple hours to the little town where the baby was born, to get it fixed, if you happen to have been shipped to a hospital with a Level 1 NICU for medical reasons...) O:> Then again, what _would_ some Seraph of Destiny think of the name "Iolanthe"? Do Seraphim of Destiny get pronunciation, too? O8) > A creative Bal-Kyrio should be able to have a field day with new parents >filling in the forms; As noted, if the host gets into real trouble, there's dissonance awaiting. Shedim, however... >John Dallman wrote: >> I suspect that a baptismal name that was never otherwise used wouldn't >> take as a "true name", a marvellously undefined concept in IN. >It is described, actually - it's whatever is in Yves' book of Names. That may >be the name you >are Destined to have, but given how the Library works, it's just as likely to >be the one which is written done formally. GM's option, at the least. If the GM likes the idea of a lot of people wandering around with names that are suggestive, in order to keep a Seraph of Destiny under control, then it works. If not, then not. O:> >Names can be incredibly embarrassing. Large numbers of guys in South America >are baptised Jesus Christ, just as we're often named after saints. Causes >major headaches when they emigrate. I seem to recall that the way you tell those is that _their_ names are pronounced "Hay-sus," while if you mean the original, you pronounce the J as a J... But that could be wrong. - --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. arcangel is nursing a trout with ARMS! ARMS that reach out and try to pound the keyboard! You say "And teeth. Ow." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 15:27:50 -0400 From: "Eric Bertish" Subject: Re: IN> Re: Seraph of Destiny attunement > I seem to recall that the way you tell those is that _their_ names are > pronounced "Hay-sus," while if you mean the original, you pronounce > the J as a J... But that could be wrong. And we all know that the Son of God spoke English, naturally. ;) In Hebrew, Jesus' name is Yeshua. Which also transliterates to Joshua. So there are, in fact, at least two Jesus's in the bible. Then, of course, there's the Latin translation (Iesu).... So I guess the question is, do Seraphim of Destiny get the name in a specific language? - -- Casca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 15:28:52 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Re: Seraph of Destiny attunement Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >>Another way: in most of the 'modern' world, your true name is the >>one on your birth certificate; yet surprisingly few people check >>what's on it. > > And one would not _believe_ the weirdnesses that can crop up. I am reminded of Bertie Wooster's remark to his valet Jeeves, when he learned that one of the other characters, L. G. Trotter, was actually named Lemuel Gengulphus: "By God, Jeeves, there's some raw work done at the [baptismal] font!" ("Indeed, sir.") My grandfather, known to everyone including himself as "Henry," was very surprised to learn, at age 65, that his birth certificate read "Sigismundus Hendricus." (He was the child of Dutch immigrants.) > (And then you have to drive down a couple hours to the little town > where the baby was born, to get it fixed, if you happen to have been > shipped to a hospital with a Level 1 NICU for medical reasons...) Okay, I'll bite. What DID happen to Iolanthe's birth certificate, other than the fact that it had a name like "Iolanthe" on it? Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 20:59 +0100 (BST) From: jgd@cix.co.uk (John Dallman) Subject: Re: IN> Hi In article <4a9b3ddcf3rhodri@wildebst.demon.co.uk>, rhodri@wildebst.demon.co.uk (Rhodri James) wrote: > In article , > John Dallman wrote: > > Even if she's been known to her friends and family as Bessie for her > > whole life, and never uses Eliza except on documents? > > Well, OK, technically you would get "God an oath" as her True Name. > Whether this renders as Eliza, Bessie, Elizabeth, Buffy or whatever is > actually a matter of taste of the translating Seraph. In lieu of > dragging a dictionary of names around, I'm going with the baptismal > default. OK. Someone might even want to transliterate this point into the IN FAQ? > Not that this means that someone's True Name is necessarily the first > name that appears on their birth certificate, mind you. Hear, hear. - --- John Dallman jgd@cix.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 20:59 +0100 (BST) From: jgd@cix.co.uk (John Dallman) Subject: Re: IN> Consider Fate... In article <20010717171852.55132.qmail@web14004.mail.yahoo.com>, moelane_1999@yahoo.com (Maurice Lane) wrote: > 2). Time travel does really weird things to English > grammar. :) Damn straight. When Steve Jackson and John M Ford set off to write GURPS Time Travel, I hoped that they would build some extensions to English for the purpose. I was disappointed, but there's always another edition to hope for. - --- John Dallman jgd@cix.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 21:13:14 +0100 From: "Genevieve Cogman" Subject: IN> Crossword No, seriously. Check out http://www.sarahsarchangels.com/crafts/AngelCrissCross/html I came across it while doing a websearch at work for criss cross heart syndrome. (It's a variant on displaced ventricles of the heart, but that's a different story.) Genevieve ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 17:02:22 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Consider Fate... At 1:03 PM -0400 7/17/01, Douglas Muir wrote: >An alternate origin of Kronos. [...] >Thoughts? Just to make sure that some subliminal credit/parallel evolution is noted... (I can use the Archives Essence, anyway.) >Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 14:50:50 -0400 >From: Elizabeth McCoy >Subject: IN> Kronos... (Re: Jordi, most dissonant of Archangels > >At 5:38 PM +0100 6/26/98, Kevin Walsh wrote: > >>WRT Kronos, remember that he has the Seraphic dissonance, > >You are assuming that he's taken that as his "Choir"... Or that >he can't change his chosen "Choir" in a heartbeat. > >Besides, canon Kronos isn't a Balseraph -- he's Yves' dark >reflection, or the part of Yves that Fell, or something. > >(Em and Maya told me this nice little notion about them: as the >personifications of the Symphony's Destiny and Fate, they "remember >the future." But Yves remembers the bright future, and Kronos the >dark one. Sort of like Merlin, living backwards... Anyway, they >explained it much better.) > >>and according to the IPG can't use his Balseraph resonance >>to alter his opinion of what is true. > >(C'mon, cite the page -- I don't recall that statement anywhere!) > >>[...] And I don't believe Kronos can successfully Balseraph Baal. > >You don't need to Balseraph a Bal, you just have to get them to >self-resonate and think it was their own idea... > >--emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor >GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ > - --Beth, Archangel of Archives http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/INChar/Angels/Arcangel.Beth.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 14:01:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Re: Seraph of Destiny attunement - --- Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >Names can be incredibly embarrassing. Large numbers of > guys in South America > >are baptised Jesus Christ, just as we're often named > after saints. Causes > >major headaches when they emigrate. > > I seem to recall that the way you tell those is that > _their_ names are > pronounced "Hay-sus," while if you mean the original, you > pronounce > the J as a J... But that could be wrong. That gets you into all sorts of liguistic tangles, at least potentially. Jesus (which is Greek) comes out in the original Hebrew as Y'shua or Joshua -- which version of the name does a Seraph of Destiny get? Whichever is appropriate to the subject's native language? ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "Fall down seven times, get up eight." - -- Japanese proverb __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 17:05:32 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: Seraph of Destiny attunement At 3:28 PM -0500 7/17/01, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >My grandfather, known to everyone including himself as "Henry," >was very surprised to learn, at age 65, that his birth certificate >read "Sigismundus Hendricus." (He was the child of Dutch immigrants.) And then there's my grandmother, who, upon the altar, learned that she was taking as husband, "Clarence Perry" and not "Jack"... O:> >> (And then you have to drive down a couple hours to the little town >> where the baby was born, to get it fixed, if you happen to have been >> shipped to a hospital with a Level 1 NICU for medical reasons...) > >Okay, I'll bite. What DID happen to Iolanthe's birth certificate, >other than the fact that it had a name like "Iolanthe" on it? I forget, entirely -- I think they loused up "Cayce" and some other information. I was still kinda zoned around then. Spouse fixed it and got the new copy on it. (And what's the matter with 'Iolanthe'? Very nice Greek, means 'purple flower,' title of a Gilbert & Sullivan operetta...) - --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. arcangel is nursing a trout with ARMS! ARMS that reach out and try to pound the keyboard! You say "And teeth. Ow." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 17:04:57 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> "And I Feel Fine" hiatus I will resume "And I Feel Fine" on Monday. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 17:07:01 -0400 From: "Robb Kidd" Subject: Re: IN> Crossword Genevieve Cogman wrote: > No, seriously. > Check out http://www.sarahsarchangels.com/crafts/AngelCrissCross.html Just an FYI: the page contains a BMP of the crossword puzzle. IE is the only browser I could get to open it. > I came across it while doing a websearch at work for criss cross heart > syndrome. (It's a variant on displaced ventricles of the heart, but that's a > different story.) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 17:10:53 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Consider Fate... At 1:03 PM -0400 7/17/01, Douglas Muir wrote: [...] >One consequence of all this: neither Yves nor Kronos can be destroyed >until the universe has chosen its Fate or Destiny. You know, that segues right into the Superior Soap Opera, regarding the 'Avatar of Free Will,' who _should_ be indestructable, according to theory. However, her advisor was _just_ unsure enough to talk her out of playing "Sir Gawain and the Green Knight" with Laurence, during a rump session of the Seraphim Council On Field Trip. (And, potential of subliminal inspirations or not, it's well written up.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 14:29:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Re: Seraph of Destiny attunement - --- Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > (And what's the matter with 'Iolanthe'? Very > nice Greek, means 'purple flower,' title of a Gilbert & > Sullivan operetta...) I think it's a whiz of a name -- so clever it would take a Sorcerer to think of it. Kind of regal, too, like a Mikado. Just please tell me you won't ever make her wear a Pinafore. I'll shut up now before you run out of Patience. };> ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 "Fall down seven times, get up eight." - -- Japanese proverb __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 17:45:53 -0400 From: "S.D." Subject: IN> Human perceptions, and another theory on Janus/Valefor I signed off last night, with a message from my IN PBeM mailing list in the back of my head. (summary: One of the other players was unnerved by the fact that SJGames copied Janus nearly word-for-word so far as abilities and the like for Valefor; I replied that it was one of the 'unsolved mysteries' of IN.) The reason for mentioning this will become clear later. Anyway, after that, I picked up one of Katherine Kurtz's Deryni books. (King Kelson's Bride, IIRC. Good series.) When I came to one of the rituals, I noticed the Archangels of the Four Corners (Uriel, Gabriel, Raphael, and Michael) were involved. Which got me to thinking. In Nomine has those four as Purity, Fire, Knowledge, and War respectively, but In Nomine also has Christianity and Judaism, (sp?) in which they represent different things than their Words cover. (some see Uriel as Death, others have Gabriel representing Water, etc.) We all know that human perceptions of a Word are the major dictators of what that Word covers, in canon. What about human perceptions of the *holder*? If human perceptions of Archangels and Princes affect their personalities, that offers a number of interesting rationales - or personality problems. Raphael's healer nature could have been why she attacked Legion, Prince of Corruption, before anyone else, and was willing to sacrifice her life to stop him. Perceptions of Uriel as Death may have greatly influenced the Purity Crusade. The four major Archangels (Uriel, Gabriel, Raphael, and Michael) are sometimes seen as 'siblings', or close enough that they might as well be, which helps rationalize Michael's hatred of Dominic after he went after Gabriel. On the Princes' side, I can't immediately think of rationales, but I *can* do personality quirks. For one, Lucifer would likely hate the Princes that share or had shared names attributed to him - Beelzebub, etc. He also might choose to switch from 'morning star' to 'evening star', now that he is no longer an Archangel (that's from learning that Venus is also called the evening star, or Hesperus/Vespers.) Baal may have ties to the sun - the Ethereal version certainly would, because the god Baal was a sun-god IIRC. Kronos, playing Cronos/Saturn, might carry a sickle and/or have ties to 'harvests' - which leads to problems with Saminga as Death - and the Chronos interpretation leads to why he's so obsessed with time. Then, of course, there's Janus. In Roman mythology, he's the god of doors, openings, and beginnings, among others - which fits Janus and, to a certain extent, Valefor. However, what took me so long to realize is this. *The god Janus has two faces, each looking away from the other.* In other words, two seperate 'faces' - or identities - each with opposing perceptions - angel and demon, Ofanite and Calabite, Archangel and Demon Prince, Heaven and Hell. If human perceptions really do shape the Word-bound as well as the Word, then perhaps Janus was forced to bring Valefor into existance somehow. The metaphysical interpretation of 'two opposing faces' rather than the physical, which would make him *far* too noticible while vessel-formed. Food for thought, at least. ~S.D. Ryukage http://fly.to/sd_nexus ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Nothing planned could ever be this complex. No, the cosmos is largely beyond the control of even the highest powers in existence. But then, that's what makes it interesting." E ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 17:06:30 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: Re: IN> "And I Feel Fine" - Part 11: The Mark of the Beast Michael Walton wrote: > Interesting questions, all. The reverse situation was > dealt with in the sequel to "Like a Thief in the Night," > when the un-Raptured believers counterfeited the Mark so > that they could buy food and supplies. A scenario like > that might also work in this campaign -- with the question, > "Is someone who fakes the Mark of the Beast also damned?" I would say the Mark of the Beast is just a symbol of your damnation, not the cause of it. Therefore, if it's possible for a Hellsworn to repent and be saved, it would be possible whether he wears the Mark or not. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 15:56:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Crossword - --- Robb Kidd wrote: > Genevieve Cogman wrote: > > No, seriously. > > Check out > http://www.sarahsarchangels.com/crafts/AngelCrissCross.html And yea, too, is the above webmistress a sister to the rest of us, under the skin. I would write unto her with compliments ("Dammit, Moe, why didn't YOU think of crossword puzzles!"), but I suspect that she might idly click on the site link in my .sig, and then... Well, it probably wouldn't be pretty. Moe ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 06/05/01(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 16:05:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Crossword http://www.sarahsarchangels.com/crafts/AngelCrissCross.html You know, upon playing with the main site a little more ... it's got some useful stuff on here. Heavily influenced by Davidson, but that's a good thing. A thumbs up and a cookie to Maya for finding this one. :) Moe ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 06/05/01(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 19:40:49 -0400 From: "S.D." Subject: Re: IN> Consider Fate... >A secondary consequence: Yves will never Fall, nor Kronos Redeem. They >_can't_. Oddly enough, I thought of this last part awhile ago. And came up with: "Has Yves or Kronos met his Destiny or Fate respectively? And *could* they meet the opposite end?" What I was thinking was that, eventually, it'd depend on which happened first. If Kronos met his Destiny, Heaven would win; if Yves met his Fate, Hell would. The 'champions' in the seventh Sign aren't necessarily military. They could be metaphorical. ~S.D. Ryukage http://fly.to/sd_nexus ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "The future hangs on a single choice. Life or death. Vengeance or mercy. Hate or love. Save or damn." Synopsis of Episode 26 of 'Sailor Moon Z' ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 21:41:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: IN> The Necronomicon (contents will not cause SAN loss*) Hey, I _said_ that this was going to be my next trick. Below suitable for a Undead-hunting campaign. Moe *The puns, on the other hand, well, that's a different story. God help me, one of them's even gratuitous. :) The Necronomicon, v2.3 It's interesting (if not particularly surprising) that Jean is absolutely indifferent about actually naming his creations. If it's a gun, he calls it a gun. If it's a particle accelerator, he calls it a particle accelerator. If it's a computerized mechanical tool designed to resemble a corporeal life form, he calls it a computerized mechanical tool designed to resemble a corporeal life form. Jean prefers things to be clear. However, the Archangel does recognize that his non-Elohim servants tend to favor more 'colorful' names, so he lets them indulge themselves. It may not add anything to a particular device's utility, but it doesn't take anything away, either, and the boost to morale is slight but measurable. Thus, the Archangel of Lightning did not object when one of his Saints (Robert, 'leader' of The Cadre) took one look at Jean's new database and renamed it. In fact, Jean was slightly impressed: puns may be odious, but St. Robert had actually managed to create one that was accurate. Indeed, this new database was a Book of the Names of the Dead... Well, Undead, and it wasn't a book, and there were more than just names in there, but it was still faintly relevant. The Necronomicon (currently on version 2.3) is essentially a combination of online field manual, discussion board and portable library. It's avowed purpose is to provide Divine servants with as much information on the Undead as possible: both Soldiers and angels are encouraged to relate even the smallest details of a relevant encounter. Needless to say, the entire archives of the Lazarines (a society of Zadkiel's dedicated to the elimination of the Undead) were the first items to be transcribed into the Necronomicon, and their continuing research is routinely posted there. The Necronomicon has three goals: identification, research and elimination. Identification is fairly straightforward: text and multimedia files provide the appearance, methodologies, weaknesses and variations of the three major forms of Undead. These files tend to be fairly stable, as most of the major work has already been done: they're also required reading for most new Soldiers or angels. Also found here are the names, pictures and descriptions of every Undead that Heaven has personally identified. Research is a bit more involved, and can be broken down to formal (Lazarine laboratory research, among other things) and informal (massive freewheeling discussion boards and forums where brainstorming is the custom). Getting access to this section requires a certain amount of peer recognition: posting, more so. It's worth it, though: the work done at the highest levels is truly astounding. Elimination is technically part of the Research section, but in practice is its own distinct area of expertise. The emphasis here is pretty much on how to efficiently, quickly and silently destroy Undead: this can range from hybrid research/combat electronic conferences to gruesomely explicit discussion boards. The moderators routinely glean through the entries, distilling the best pearls of wisdom for inclusion in a 'how-to' file that gets larger every year. Sardonic servants of the Host tend to call this file The Revelations of Glock-E, in honor of both a favored zombie-killing gun and the average clearance of the field agents who face the Undead. The regular contributors to the Necronomicon tend to be a fairly hard-boiled lot: constant exposure to zombies and mummies and vampires and whatnot has had an effect on their personalities, and it's reflected in their humor (fairly inappropriate, at times) and lack of squeamishness (truly impressive). The more esoteric parts of the boards could cause acute nausea in an unprepared human - or even angel. Naturally, most hardcore Investigators (their informal name for themselves) have less than zero sympathy for any philosophical position that lets a single zombified finger survive the inevitable cleansing. Needless to say, such a resource as the Necronomicon is carefully guarded. The first line of defense is that the servers with the basic information are all in Heaven: regular firewalls pale in comparison. Furthermore, actual access to the database is regulated. Most servants of the Host are issued basic user privileges as a matter of course, should they request it: they are issued silvery electronic random password generators that allow them to access the common areas. Such generators are actual corporeal artifacts, and will not generate the necessary keys when parted from their owners. However, such access only lets the user to read the declassified materials and study up on the more common forms of Undead. There are five clearances: F grants declassified information, E through C provides access to some of the more engaging speculations, B allows the user to participate in the expert discussion boards and cutting edge research and A is reserved for Superiors 'and their designates'. Furthermore, the ability to request that research be done on a specific target is subject to another set of clearances, based on the visible electromagnetic spectrum (visible to regular humans, at least): the higher the level, the more likely that someone will actually respond within a useful amount of time. PCs with access to the Necronomicon databases (and with a need for its information) should hold clearances somewhere in the middle of the scale. A clearance of D or so will allow them to see some of the interesting stuff, and a central color rating will get their questions answered fairly promptly, but the GM will still be able to throw surprises at them. Occasionally, however, a demon or Hellsworn will slip through somehow. What happens next depends on their intentions: those hoping to spread dissension (or even spy) are at constant risk of exposure and attack: suitably trained angels routinely resonate on every post on the Necronomicon database. However, a demon that sincerely wants to just learn how to kill Undead better may very well be quietly ignored, as long as he or she stays out of the classified sections and keeps his or her mouth firmly shut. Note that only demons or Hellsworn are in a position to even try to sneak on. Those Undead that manage to steal or capture a key and try to bypass its security system always seem to succeed - until they actually log on. If they do, the key will immediately flash bright silver and attach itself to the Undead. Once this happens, the key will cause 1d6 Body hits per turn, which cannot be reduced, blocked or deflected: even the Corporeal Song of Shields won't dislodge it once it attaches (only delay the damage). This damage will last until the Undead makes a Strength roll (in other words, rips out the key - for another 2d6 Body Hits) or dies. Hey, if you're eternally lying, you should be dead. That's why they call it 'death' in the first place, rather than, say, 'hanging out'... ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 06/05/01(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2305 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2001 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.