From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Jul 20 18:06:16 2001 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA17197 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2001 18:06:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id SAA00169 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 20 Jul 2001 18:07:05 -0500 Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 18:07:05 -0500 Message-Id: <200107202307.SAA00169@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #2310 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, July 20 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2310 In this digest: Re: IN> Proto-Superiors 1 -- Squalor Re: IN> The Online Conspiracy Re: IN> Proto-Superiors 1 -- Squalor Re: IN> The Demon of Squalor -- further thoughts Re: IN> Re: Alaemon's Band Re: IN> Proto-Superiors 1 -- Squalor Re: IN> The Demon of Squalor -- further thoughts Re: IN> The Demon of Squalor -- further thoughts Re: IN> Proto-Superiors 1 -- Squalor Re: IN> Proto-Superiors 1 -- Squalor Re: IN> Proto-Superiors 1 -- Squalor Re: IN> Proto-Superiors 1 -- Squalor RE: IN> Attunements & Rites Re: IN> Superiors 5+ IN> Song of... Goo Re: IN> Song of... Goo Re: IN> Ormazd Re: IN> Song of... Goo Re: IN> Skulker Re: IN> Song of... Goo Re: IN> Ormazd Re: IN> Song of... Goo IN> Religions, Concepts, Words and what not (was Re: Ormazd) Re: IN> Skulker Re: IN> Ormazd Re: IN> Religions, Concepts, Words and what not (was Re: Ormazd) IN> X, the Unknown Re: IN> Religions, Concepts, Words and what not (was Re:Ormazd) Re: IN> X, the Unknown ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 11:49:26 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Proto-Superiors 1 -- Squalor From: "Douglas Muir" > > If Scroud _does_ get his Princehood, he'll promptly make friendly overtures > to Furfur; we young Princes have to stick together, our Words support each > other, yadda yadda. Furfur's reaction would depend, as you say, on how > intelligent you think he is. I like to play Furfur as clever (nobody entirely stupid could have come up with his plan for elevating himself, after all,) but prone to lose all sense of reason in mindless fits of violence - sort of an intellectual Brujah, if you don't mind the gratuitous reference to pale canines. Then again, I am in the pro-Furfur camp; in him, I find the same sort of elemental appealingness that I find in Haagenti. The relationship that I would have play out between them in any games I ran would be one of naked self-interest, with each one acknowledging that their Words feed each other, but watching carefully for signs of weakness or betrayal. > >I don't think he would get anything better than Neutral relations from > >Lilith, though, since his Word is furthered by the kind of poverty that > >keeps humans enslaved to their circumstances. > > I'd agree with that. OTOH, this wouldn't stop her from helping him IMO -- > it'd just make her jack up the price some more. My thoughts exactly - I see Lilith as the ultimate pragmatist, who knows that you need those you do not like to owe you even more than you need those you like to do so. > >Likewise, I see Eli as hating Scroud, because the squalid conditions he > >fosters hinder the development of creativity among the afflicted human > >residents. > > If he notices, yes. Discovering Scroud's actions and bringing them to the attention of Eli could make for a nice adventure seed for Creationers, don't you think? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 12:57:47 -0400 From: "Eric Bertish" Subject: Re: IN> The Online Conspiracy > Sure, Eric is secretly Moe... he takes off his glasses to >write the really wierd stuff! }:;:> No, Moe and I have been seen in public by other people, we couldn't possibly be the same person. And with my glasses off, I -- huh? Oh. You mean that *other* Eric. My apologies. - -- Casca (All hail the Eric/k conspiracy!) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 10:09:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> Proto-Superiors 1 -- Squalor - --- Prodigal wrote: > From: "Douglas Muir" > Then again, I am in > the pro-Furfur camp; in him, I find the same sort of > elemental appealingness > that I find in Haagenti. I have to admit a certain sympathy, as well. I'm not entirely certain why: possibly it's because I see Furfur as what they should have made Belial in the first place. Or maybe it's because his Superior quotes are just so much bloody fun to write. :) Moe ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 06/05/01(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 10:17:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> The Demon of Squalor -- further thoughts - --- Douglas Muir wrote: > > Archangelic opinions in more detail -- All the AAs > know of Scroud already > (they keep track of all Hell's Dukes), but none of > them know that he's > plotting to become a Prince -- though some of the > more strategically minded > ones may suspect it. > Gabriel or Marc, OTOH, would probably go all-out to > stop him. Agreed on Marc ... and (IMO) if _anybody_ knows what's going on in Hell's political structure, it'd be him. As I've stated elsewhere, I see Trade as being exceptionally good at intelligence analysis: couple that with Revelation's investigators (hey, they were just lying around all unused), and you've got a primo intelligence network all set up and ready to be used. Then, all you have to do is send out some of Zaddie's girls and boys to set up that old Mission Impossible-style triple crosses, and you can count on being able to sit back and watch Gluttony rip itself apart... :) Moe ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 06/05/01(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 10:19:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Re: Alaemon's Band - --- Whistling in the Dark wrote: > By those lights, Lemmy couldn't make them look like Lilim > either. Good point -- I'm surprised I missed that one. > (To be *really* fun, make them look like *Angels.*) Heh heh -- tres amusing. }:> ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 The trouble with doing something right the first time is that nobody appreciates how difficult it was. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 12:28:56 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Proto-Superiors 1 -- Squalor From: "Maurice Lane" > > I have to admit a certain sympathy, as well. I'm not > entirely certain why: possibly it's because I see > Furfur as what they should have made Belial in the > first place. I like Belial better than you, so my milage on this possible reason obviously varies. :;:) (Not that I hestitated for an instant to kill him off in the campaign background I was working up awhile back, of course.) Furfur is the ultimate celestial equivalent to the "Rags to Riches" story that is hedl so dear in the US - what was the name of the guy who wrote all those novels with that as his theme? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 12:30:57 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> The Demon of Squalor -- further thoughts From: "Maurice Lane" > > As I've stated elsewhere, I see Trade as being > exceptionally good at intelligence analysis: couple > that with Revelation's investigators (hey, they were > just lying around all unused), and you've got a primo > intelligence network all set up and ready to be used. And intelligence could be among the things he deals with Lilith for, don't you think? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 13:33:47 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: Re: IN> The Demon of Squalor -- further thoughts >Agreed on Marc ... and (IMO) if _anybody_ knows what's >going on in Hell's political structure, it'd be him. >As I've stated elsewhere, I see Trade as being >exceptionally good at intelligence analysis Marc seems to be one of the most neglected and underused AAs. I think Trade gets underestimated a lot, both by friends and foes within the game, and by GMs and PCs outside it. >Then, all you have to do is send out some of Zaddie's >girls and boys to set up that old Mission >Impossible-style triple crosses, and you can count on >being able to sit back and watch Gluttony rip itself >apart... Heh. Idle thought: what happens if a powerful Duke makes a bit for Princedom... and fails... but survives, and manages to entrench himself in his palace before his Prince can catch up with him? In theory, all Hell's hierarchy, from Lucifer and Baal on down, would combine to crush this rebel against the system. In practice, of course... well, a Prince who can't keep his Dukes in line is showing weakness, isn't he. A non-Superior demon _can_ defeat a Prince; Haagenti killed Meserach while he was still just a Word-bound, after all. And the available evidence (Haagenti, Valefor) suggests that taking out a Prince is the quickest way to earn a Princedom yourself... If things fell out just right, I think you could get an actual civil war. That'd be fun. Haagenti wins, but there could be a really big mess first. Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 10:39:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Proto-Superiors 1 -- Squalor - --- Prodigal wrote: > Furfur is the ultimate celestial equivalent to the "Rags > to Riches" story > that is hedl so dear in the US - what was the name of the > guy who wrote all > those novels with that as his theme? I think it was Horatio Alger, but I'm not sure. Of course, Charles Dickens was good for that, too. Speaking of Dickens, who was it who suggested that "A Christmas Carol" was a Blandinian operation? ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 The trouble with doing something right the first time is that nobody appreciates how difficult it was. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 13:43:24 -0400 From: "Seth Questor" Subject: Re: IN> Proto-Superiors 1 -- Squalor >From: Douglas Muir > >Actually, I would see Mammon as supporting Scroud in his bid for >Princedom, > >as Greed and Squalor fit well together: Slumlords are mainly motivated by > >Greed, after all, and Greedy people tend to leave Poverty in their wake. > >How many people now are unemployed because of "Downsizing" and "Cutbacks" > >their companies made to save a Buck? > >If Mammon were sensible he'd still be a major prince. Resentment and >jealousy frequently trump good sense in Hell. Actually, if you think of it, Mammon would never support ANYONE to be a prince. That smacks too much of "sharing the wealth", which is contrary to his word, hence his very nature. Mammon can't even conceive of this. He can help those weaker than him in order to help himself, but I imagine even that would be rare. I don't see him ever giving aid to anyone who would try to equal him. - ---Seth _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 12:45:47 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Proto-Superiors 1 -- Squalor From: "Michael Walton" > > I think it was Horatio Alger, but I'm not sure. That's the name I was trying to remember. Thanks! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 14:28:11 -0400 From: "Jason F. McBrayer" Subject: Re: IN> Proto-Superiors 1 -- Squalor On Thu, Jul 19, 2001 at 05:49:18PM -0500, Prodigal wrote: > Likewise, I see Eli as hating Scroud, because the squalid conditions > he fosters hinder the development of creativity among the afflicted > human residents. That goes along really well with the quote from Oscar Wilde in the original writeup. IIRC, the quote's from "The Soul of Man Under Socialism", in which Wilde advocates socialism for pretty much that reason -- poverty prevents the development of the aesthetic faculties. - -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Jason F. McBrayer jmcbray@carcosa.net | | The scalloped tatters of the King in Yellow must hide Yhtill | | forever. R.W. Chambers _The King in Yellow_ | ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 15:35:42 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: RE: IN> Attunements & Rites Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 11:45:05 -0500 From: ranma Subject: RE: IN> Attunements & Rites >===== Original Message From Eric Bertish ===== >My campaign features Ecumenical Rites, open to all angels: > >*Receive communion (or equivalent) >*Attend worship on a holy day (Good Friday, Yom Kippur); +1 if this is a >high holy day (Passover, Easter) >[Yes, I know there are no Islamic examples given. This is done out of my >ignorance, and not as an insult to Muslims. Enlightenment and examples >gleefully accepted.] > *Pray facing Mecca five times a day *Attend Friday Prayer Service *Complete pilgrimage to Mecca (+2 the first time) Since Angels don't actually need to eat, I don't think fasting during Ramadan would particularly be a good rite for them, though. I think Khalid grants rites similar to those three to his angels, IIRC. John Biles - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 15:35:51 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Superiors 5+ At 11:21 AM -0400 7/18/01, Douglas Muir wrote: >What's the status of Superiors 5, and beyond? For that matter, what's the >status of the IN line generally? According to a Pyramid chat a while back, shortly after the announcement of layoffs, SJ wants to put the EPG on the list for late this year or early next year. This may, of course, change according to financial concerns (they still haven't figured out what the financial state is, as of the last Daily Illuminator), but that's a pretty nice thing for him to say. For Superiors 5 -- I'd need certain authors, one of which is going to be entering into playtest for a different (GURPS) book soon and it would be hard for her to try to work on a Superiors book... >[...] If we're not sure what the status of IN is right now, what _was_ >it before the meteor struck a couple of weeks ago? Hey, a couple of weeks before the meteor strike, I _didn't_ know if the EPG was in Limbo or what. O:> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 15:37:06 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Song of... Goo (This is sooooo non-canon...) Numinous Corpus: Goo The demon (of Lust, natch, and go ahead and keep your mind in the gutter) who discovered this Song was looking for an Ornamental NC -- but what it found was much, much, _much_ more interesting. Lasting for the usual CD hours, the performer may cause a very slick, flavorless, scentless, transparent lubricant to ooze from his or her skin. This may be controlled separately, as well: a single hand may be "goo'ed", or the entire body, or any combination. It takes approximately 30 seconds to get to full "goo" state, and as many for parts exposed to air to quickly dry once the Song is demanifested or expires. Besides the obvious uses for Servitors of Lust (and some less-obvious ones, such as nude Twister...), this Song makes it hard to hold onto the performer! Once the goo has built up to full slickness, subtract the singer's level with the Song from all attempts to grapple or pin him/her, or add that level to the singer's attempts to Escape from bonds. At the GM's discretion, it may temporarily oil a door (run a goo'ed finger along the hinges) or otherwise be transferrable to good effect, till it dries. (Usual Essence costs and Degree of Disturbance for Numinous Corpus.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor RPG links; Random name list, Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 15:06:34 -0500 From: "Prodigal" Subject: Re: IN> Song of... Goo From: "Elizabeth McCoy" > > Besides the obvious uses for Servitors of Lust Oh great, as if Shedim of Lust weren't already gross enough as it was... ;;;) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 22:12:38 +0100 From: "Christopher Lee" Subject: Re: IN> Ormazd Hi folks, I was interested to see the Zoroastrian thread. Not to nitpick I have spotted a few potential points which might be worth raising. For example, if you want to use Baal and Michael as Ormazd and Ahriman I have no problem with this. You can easily adopt the Sassanian period suggestion that the two are twin brothers, sons of Zervan (Time). This would account for archangel/demon prince/s as the two gods. However, in reality the Zervan idea was debated and cast aside by the Magi. Secondly if you use the two superiors above how do you account for the two prime attributes of the Zoroastrian pantheon? For those who don't know the basic principle of later Zoroastrianism is that the two twin gods chose opposite sides in the eternal struggle between the two eternal concepts underpinning life: Asa = Truth Drug = Lie So if we choose war as the superior do we then add these attributes to them? I personally designed my own Zoroastrian archangel - Peroz (Victory) with the Word Truth. I opted for the original Zoroastrian world view that Ahura-Mazd was the Supreme Being and that Angra-Maiyu was a lesser being (sort of Lucifer and God). I then gave each a Superior to carry on their chunk of the War. You also need a way to include all the various lesser deities of Zoroastrian mythology, the Daevas of Angra-Maiyu and the Yazatas who serve Ahura-Mazd. I would suggest: Ahura-Mazd/Ormazd = God Angra-Maiyu/Ahriman = Lucifer Daeva = demon (more powerful as Superiros) Yazata = angel (allows you to account for all the lesser deities, e.g. Asi, Mithra, Anahita as Archangels. Possibly Iranian names for the existing archangels or lesser now forgotten ones) You would probably need to have an archangel devoted to Ahura-Mazd and a Demon Prince of Angra-Maiyu. I designed Peroz with the word of Truth. Perhaps you could have Pairika (a sort of Iranian evil female spirit) with the word of Lie or Falsehood. For anyone interested I have loads of info, links, etc for Zoroastrianism which I developed when I was doing my Masters and I will happily make it available. Chris Lee PS: how do we factor in other now-marginalised or extinct religious movements into IN? Any thoughts on: Jainism, Bah'ia, Mandaneanism, Gnosticism, Neo-Platonism, etc, etc? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 14:13:52 -0700 From: Daiv Subject: Re: IN> Song of... Goo Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > (This is sooooo non-canon...) > > Numinous Corpus: Goo I for one, think that this absolutely needs to become canon. Just because. (yes, i know i can use it in my own games and all that, canon or not. I just think that this is the sort of thing that adds he appropriate flavor to the game.) -Daiv, Tech Writer in search of a superior (but I found a cousin instead). ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 17:34:50 -0400 From: Jonathan Walton Subject: Re: IN> Skulker >Where could I find a writeup of this band? GURPS In Nomine. They're basically just Grigori, except that they can use their Resonance to mask disturbances to the Symphony. For the Grigs, try David's writeup ... http://www.amadan.org/Innomine/Grigori.html Something else I should add to the WWIN pages ... Later. Jonathan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 14:33:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Song of... Goo - --- Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Numinous Corpus: Goo Heh. Great minds do think alike. I came up with this independently, but hadn't posted it to the list yet -- it's part of a collection of Songs (which is not yet finished). I called it NC: Slime and listed Andrealphus among the Superiors from whom it was available. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 The trouble with doing something right the first time is that nobody appreciates how difficult it was. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 14:37:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Ormazd - --- Christopher Lee wrote: > PS: how do we factor in other now-marginalised or extinct > religious movements into IN? Any thoughts on: Jainism, > Bah'ia, Mandaneanism, Gnosticism, Neo-Platonism, etc, > etc? I did a write-up of Aeons (from Gnosticism) as a minor Choir, with Archons as their Fallen counterparts. I also toyed with the idea of Yazatas as a minor Choir, but I couldn't think of anything good to do with it. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 The trouble with doing something right the first time is that nobody appreciates how difficult it was. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 14:38:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> Song of... Goo - --- Daiv wrote: > > Numinous Corpus: Goo > I for one, think that this absolutely needs to become > canon. [snip]I just think that this is the sort of thing that > adds the > appropriate flavor to the game.) Oh, you DID NOT go there. ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 The trouble with doing something right the first time is that nobody appreciates how difficult it was. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 17:42:49 -0400 From: "Robb Kidd" Subject: IN> Religions, Concepts, Words and what not (was Re: Ormazd) Christopher Lee wrote: : how do we factor in other now-marginalised or extinct : religious movements into IN? Any thoughts on: Jainism, : Bah'ia, Mandaneanism, Gnosticism, Neo-Platonism, etc, etc? While I've got no concrete gameworldview[1], I keep coming back to the scenes in the Sandman comics where you would see the Endless[2] from the perspective of another character. Martian Manhunter saw the flaming head-thing, Bast saw a big, black cat with red eyes. Something about this strikes me as Right. I'll venture out here and stubble around this idea. Angels and demons embody or serve abstract concepts and are powered by Essence (essentially[3] a quantification of human Mindshare & Passion). Concepts feeding on belief would probably appear differently to different cultures -- who by the definition of "different cultures" have different concepts. Any spiritual worldview has its perspectives on these concepts. Since, according to canon, no religion is correct, all of these spiritual perspectives could have some validity in them. We're stuck thinking about Archangels and Demon Prices mostly looking and operating like Westerners. Think of the Mindshare & Passion to be tapped in such a huge population as in China.[4] Is the massive amounts of Essense getting funneled from there to the words of War, Flowers, Factions and Technology -not- affecting the shape and attitude of of the holders of those words? Is the Essence-generating belief any less legitimate than that generated by Judeo-Christian-Islamic thinkers? To ignore it would be like snuffing out millions of shareholders. [1] Sounds German. Spielweltensicht? [2] Dream, mostly. Can't think of instances of depicting others. [3] Ha! [4] Who is the Red Worm feeding Essence to, I wonder. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 18:00:31 -0400 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> Skulker >--- Chris Holland wrote: >> >> Where could I find a writeup of this band? >> >> Chris > >Heh. There isn't a canonical writeup: I _think_ that >David E referred to them in his web writeup. > >If not, well, you'll have to hope that somebody writes >them up in response. Usually, somebody will. :) > >Moe The Band's Resonance and Dissonance Conditions are listed in GURPS: In Nomine. Basically, they hide Disturbance and get Dissonance for getting a critifcal failure while doing so. Their Celestial form is undescribed; since the Grigori are tall, solid-seeming humans, I would make the Skulkers tall (but frequently stooped) humans who, though opaque, seem like they're just on the edge of disappearing into thin air. William ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 18:12:58 -0400 From: "S.D." Subject: Re: IN> Ormazd >For example, if you want to use Baal and Michael as Ormazd and Ahriman I have no problem with this. You can easily adopt the Sassanian period suggestion that the two are twin brothers, sons of Zervan (Time). This would account for archangel/demon prince/s as the two gods. However, in reality the Zervan idea was debated and cast aside by the Magi. Because Kronos *obviously* couldn't be the father of Baal and Michael. ^^ >Secondly if you use the two superiors above how do you account for the two prime attributes of the Zoroastrian pantheon? > >For those who don't know the basic principle of later Zoroastrianism is that the two twin gods chose opposite sides in the eternal struggle between the two eternal concepts underpinning life: >Asa = Truth >Drug = Lie > >So if we choose war as the superior do we then add these attributes to them? Remember, Mike's a Seraph and Baal's, well, a Bal. IOW, the Choir that represents Truth and the Band called, among other things, the Liars. Don't even have to worry about that part. >You also need a way to include all the various lesser deities of Zoroastrian mythology, the Daevas of Angra-Maiyu and the Yazatas who serve Ahura-Mazd. > >I would suggest: >Ahura-Mazd/Ormazd = God >Angra-Maiyu/Ahriman = Lucifer >Daeva = demon (more powerful as Superiros) >Yazata = angel (allows you to account for all the lesser deities, e.g. Asi, Mithra, Anahita as Archangels. Possibly Iranian names for the existing archangels or lesser now forgotten ones) Perhaps make the Daevas and Yazatas Word-bound Dukes/whatever the angelic higher distinction is? That would allow for keeping Michael and Baal as Ahura Mazdra and Ahriman (sorry for mixing terms, this is the way I learned 'em.) Of course, they'd tend to oppose each other...hrm. Now that I think about it, except for the power levels, the ones representing Old Age/Death and Immortality (if I recall the terms right) could well be Kronos and Yves. And the other 'aspects' could be turned into various existing Archangels/Demon Princes... >You would probably need to have an archangel devoted to Ahura-Mazd and a Demon Prince of Angra-Maiyu. I designed Peroz with the word of Truth. Perhaps you could have Pairika (a sort of Iranian evil female spirit) with the word of Lie or Falsehood. Actually, this brings on something I thought of awhile back, completely unrelated to Zoroastrianism. Mostly non-canon. IIRC, in Judaic (possibly Christian) belief, there are seven beings that head each of the seven choirs of angels. Now, IN has it that all angelic Choirs work for all Superiors, though some less than others (i.e. Malakim under Novalis). But, IN *could* work in the 'seven heads' system - by simply taking Archangels of the appropriate Choir (and DPs of the appropriate Band) and giving them whatever Word best reflects the Choir Nature. Set 'em up as, say, the major speakers on the Seraphim Council and diabolical equivalent thereof short of Lucifer, since on one he's right *there* and on the other he's out of reach. The Archangels already have Zadkiel, who works nicely for Cherubim, Jordi, whose Word could be twisted a bit to suit Kyriotates, and Laurence, who I really shouldn't have to say more about to persuade you about him for Malakim. ^^ Litheroy might also work as the Seraph head, and Marc & Eli could, frankly, trade off on the Mercurian seat. Yves handles 'other', 'Grigori', and 'Lilim' nicely by his very existance, if you subscribe to the 'Lilim-are-almost-human' belief. On the demonic side, let's see...Lucifer is obviously the Balseraph head. Regardless of the Word your canon gives him. Other than that...Asmodeus might work for Djinn, Lilith has to be Lilim/human/other (unless Kronos gets to play 'other'), and IMO Andrealphus works for Impudites. Of course, the point of this at the start was appropriate *Words*, and Zadkiel and Lilith, probably Litheroy and Laurence, and possibly Marc and Eli are the only ones who really fit. So...non-canon Superiors. ^^ Anyone have ideas for Words that fit? Bonus points if you get more creative than "Balseraph: Lies", "Habbalite: Punishing", "Malakite: Honor", etc, as long as you can justify it somehow. ^^ If I get enough, I'll consider running it as a nonstandard Iron Rev (though I'd have to access my site for that, which I haven't done in a couple years... ^_^;; ) ~S.D. Ryukage http://fly.to/sd_nexus ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ What right do you have to judge us? Lina Inverse's last words to Dyanna, the Arbitor, 'Dragons Rule' ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 18:17:57 -0400 From: "S.D." Subject: Re: IN> Religions, Concepts, Words and what not (was Re: Ormazd) > We're stuck thinking about Archangels and Demon Prices mostly looking >and operating like Westerners. Think of the Mindshare & Passion to be >tapped in such a huge population as in China.[4] Is the massive amounts >of Essense getting funneled from there to the words of War, Flowers, >Factions and Technology -not- affecting the shape and attitude of of the >holders of those words? Is the Essence-generating belief any less >legitimate than that generated by Judeo-Christian-Islamic thinkers? To >ignore it would be like snuffing out millions of shareholders. ...whoa. That's number two. (posts that look disturbingly like things I just mentioned in my Janus/Valefor theory. Which I still want reactions on. ^^; ) You know what they say; third time's a conspiracy... };-) ~S.D. Ryukage http://fly.to/sd_nexus ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Little by little the penguins steal my sanity. And my underwear." Michael Robertson, 'Last Escape' ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 18:21:31 -0400 From: Douglas Muir Subject: IN> X, the Unknown It occurs to me that I've never once seen a writeup of one of the Unknown. "Some of the newly Fallen become a strange sort of Renegade demon -- one of the Unknown. The Unknown are Fallen angels who choose to remain on the fringes of Hell, having never had a master and never desiring one. They can remain unknown to the forces of Hell and stay thus for a long time. The Unknown are rare, but they do exist, hiding and living on their own terms." -- Angelic Players Guide, pg. 114 So, here's a sample Unknown. Anyone else have any of these? * * * * * "X", Unknown Calabite 5 Corporeal Strength 10 Agility 10 2 Ethereal Intel 5 Precision 3 4 Celestial Perception 9 Will 8* *X has been working on improving his Will ever since he Fell, as he expects he might be visiting Limbo one day. Vessel - 4 (hulking, long-haired human male) Role (Garbageman) - 2 Status - 1 Move Silently - 3 Fighting (brawling) - 6 Lying - 2 Dodge - 3 Driving - 5 Fast Talk - 3 Songs Corporeal Charm - 5, Celestial Charm - 3 Corporeal Motion - 5 Celestial Motion - 5 Corporeal Shields - 3 Celestial Shields - 6 Corporeal Form - 3 Celestial Attraction - 5 Discord - Angry (2) So he made some bad choices. First off, he probably should have fledged as a Malakite, not an Ofanite, back when he was a reliever. That might have given his violent impulses a constructive output. Failing that, at least he'd be dead now -- torn to pieces by his brother Virtues -- instead of Fallen and damned. Second, he probably should have entered Gabriel's service, or even Michael's. Working for Laurence was a big mistake. All those orders! All those rules! He just wanted to smite evil, damn it. So he kept stepping over the line. He was doing it for the greater good. Why didn't they understand? Third, when he kept accumulating Dissonance, it was probably a mistake to convert it into the Angry Discord. If he hadn't done that, he _might_ have been able to keep his temper when that wuss Mercurian Vassal-Lieutenant ordered him to surrender his flaming sword. As it was... well, it's a good thing Mr. Friend-of-Man didn't have the Hunt attunement, is all. So now he's a demon. Well, screw Heaven and screw Hell too. He's going to break some heads. Chiririon was an Ofanite of the Sword once, but he repeatedly rebelled against Laurence's discipline. A disastrous fight with a superior officer left the Mercurian in Trauma and Chiririon an Outcast. Soon afterwards, he got a bad dissonance roll, and Fell. His first act afterwards was to take on a new Name... "X", as he now thinks of himself, has been Unknown for over a decade now. And though he's filled with rage at Heaven, he hates Hell and all its works just a little bit more. He's living in a Role as a garbageman, and still smiting evil as best he can. Of course, he's a bit sloppier than he used to be... X has killed about a dozen humans over the last ten years -- six or seven petty criminals, a couple of Mob figures involved with the garbage industry, two innocent bystanders and one coworker who just ticked him off. He's sent two demons into Trauma, and also one nosy Angel of Revelation who just wouldn't quit sniffing around. X's technique is simple but effective. He'll use Celestial Attraction to attune to his victims, and then stalk them patiently for days or weeks. When the opportunity presents itself, he'll use Celestial Shields to secure the area, then cast Corporeal Form, armor himself up, and close in for the kill. If he thinks it's worthwhile, he might sing Celestial Charm first, and try to beat and intimidate some useful information out of the victims. Otherwise, he'll simply beat them to death on the spot. With his strength, fighting skills, and resonance, few humans are likely to give him much difficulty. Once finished, X will use Celestial Motion to "bamf" out of the area. By the time the Celestial Shield collapses, releasing all the pent-up disturbance to the Symphony (BOOM!), X will be several miles away. Of course, it's not always that simple. Once in a while he'll simply lose his temper and smash something... or someone. When this happens, he'll leave town, quickly. (Co-workers and other humans treat X with a mixture of fear and respect. If you don't make him mad, and ignore the way things tend to break around him, he's actually almost likable. He enjoys all the things you'd expect a fallen Ofanite to like: monster truck rallies, NASCAR racing, and dancing to loud music played badly. When there's no evil around to smite, he likes to relax in loud, trashy roadhouses. Knocking someone's teeth out is always a pleasant way to wrap up an evening, and if the human in question is a bully or a petty crook, so much the better.) X's general attitude can be described as "cheerful, angry nihilism, tempered with near-paranoid caution". He figures that, as long as he's damned, he might as well take plenty of evil down with him. He enjoys killing wicked humans, but what he really wants to do is vent his rage on some demons. X will -- carefully! very carefully! -- investigate any disturbances to the Symphony that he hears. He's capable of great patience, and he's very cunning in using his skills and Songs to stalk his prey. Sooner or later, of course, either Heaven or Hell is going to catch up with him... and he's smart enough to realize this. What he'd really like to do, before that happens, is to fill a garbage truck with fertilizer and gasoline, and pay a high-speed visit to a Diabolical Tether. Woo hoo! That'd be worth a century or two in Limbo. Meanwhile, X can serve as an interestingly off-beat opponent for either angelic or demonic PCs. The PCs could be ordered to investigate the mysterious "Symphonic booms" caused by X's actions. Demons could find themselves being stalked by him; angelic PCs might find that demons are investigating, too, and end up in a three-way fight. Alternately, angels staking out a demonic Tether might notice that someone else is working in parallel to them... GMs should play X as cunning and intelligent, if occasionally reckless. Not only is he a combat monster (90 Body hits, plus the ability to do 2d6+9 damage with a single punch), but he's also very good at hit-and-run tactics. Properly played, X should be a serious challenge for a typical group of starting PCs. If sufficiently enraged, he might throw caution to the winds and fight to the death, trying to take as many opponents down as possible. Otherwise, he'll eventually leave town and go into hiding again. Either angels or demons would probably get kudos for taking X out; he's a loose cannon, objectionable to both sides. Redeeming him would be difficult, but might just perhaps be possible -- Servants of War or Fire could try summoning their Archangel on him. Bringing him to Hell would be almost as tough. X could, perhaps, be convinced to serve the War (some honor left there), Gluttony (the Hell with it, let's eat) Hardcore (loud music! smash things!) or the Game (hey, I can still kill demons). Otherwise he'd fight to the death. Thoughts? Doug M. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 19:02:17 -0400 From: "Robb Kidd" Subject: Re: IN> Religions, Concepts, Words and what not (was Re:Ormazd) "S.D." wrote: >> We're stuck thinking about Archangels and Demon Prices >> mostly looking and operating like Westerners. Think of the >> Mindshare & Passion to be tapped in such a huge population >> as in China.[4] Is the massive amounts of Essense getting >> funneled from there to the words of War, Flowers, Factions >> and Technology -not- affecting the shape and attitude of of >> the holders of those words? Is the Essence-generating >> belief any less legitimate than that generated by >> Judeo-Christian-Islamic thinkers? To ignore it would be >> like snuffing out millions of shareholders. > > ...whoa. That's number two. (posts that look disturbingly > like things I just mentioned in my Janus/Valefor theory. > Which I still want reactions on. ^^; ) You know what they > say; third time's a conspiracy... };-) Ixnay onya ethay onspiracycay. This is the sort of thing I was on about in the summer of '98 when I was on the list the first time. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 16:05:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: IN> X, the Unknown - --- Douglas Muir wrote: > > It occurs to me that I've never once seen a writeup > of one of the Unknown. > Fun guy. I suspect that, should Mike ever get a hold of him, things might be ... smoothed out, shall we say? ... for X. For a Seraph, Mike's a pragmatic sonuvabitch.* :) *Actually, he's just pragmatic, period. Even sneaky, which is kind of _strange_, when you consider his Choir... :) ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 06/05/01(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2310 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2001 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.