From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Jul 31 22:02:53 2001 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA14643 for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2001 22:02:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.1a) id WAA28475 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 31 Jul 2001 22:02:24 -0500 Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 22:02:24 -0500 Message-Id: <200108010302.WAA28475@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #2323 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, July 31 2001 Volume 01 : Number 2323 In this digest: Re: New Group (Was Re: IN> Iron Rev III: The Demon of Yogurt) Re: New Group (Was Re: IN> Iron Rev III: The Demon of Yogurt) Re: New Group (Was Re: IN> Iron Rev III: The Demon of Yogurt) Re: New Group (Was Re: IN> Iron Rev III: The Demon of Yogurt) Re: New Group (Was Re: IN> Iron Rev III: The Demon of Yogurt) Re: New Group (Was Re: IN> Iron Rev III: The Demon of Yogurt) Re: New Group (Was Re: IN> Iron Rev III: The Demon of Yogurt) Re: IN> August is FANTASY MONTH! IN> James, Saint of War Re: IN> August is FANTASY MONTH! Re: IN> August is FANTASY MONTH! Re: IN> August is FANTASY MONTH! Re: New Group (Was Re: IN> Iron Rev III: The Demon of Yogurt) Re: New Group (Was Re: IN> Iron Rev III: The Demon of Yogurt) Re: New Group (Was Re: IN> Iron Rev III: The Demon of Yogurt) Re: IN> I did not write this. I did NOT write this. I DID NOT WRITE THIS... (Somewhere between PG-13 & R)) Re: New Group (Was Re: IN> Iron Rev III: The Demon of Yogurt) Re: New Group (Was Re: IN> Iron Rev III: The Demon of Yogurt) IN> Re: Gaiman & the EPG Re: IN> August is FANTASY MONTH! Re: New Group (Was Re: IN> Iron Rev III: The Demon of Yogurt) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 09:16:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: New Group (Was Re: IN> Iron Rev III: The Demon of Yogurt) Well, this was a wild and woolly journey... ;) > At 7:47 PM -0700 7/30/01, Maurice Lane wrote: > >--- Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> At 8:28 AM -0700 7/29/01, Maurice Lane wrote: > >> >--- Elizabeth McCoy > wrote: > >> >> [Haven't had time to read anyone else's, so I > >> hope > >> >> this doesn't repeat...] > >> >> > >> >> The Demon of Yogurt > >> > > >> > > >> >"We have to do WHAT?" > >> [...] > >> > >> > >> > >> Gee, if you have't submitted one yet (I told you > >> that I haven't > >> read any), maybe you should do this one's > >> _sequal_... > > > >Funny you should mention that. It's not an actual > >_sequel_, mind, but it's ... well, I dunno what it > is. > > Aside from everything else, the Brightness level > >seems to be oscillating. > > > >Moe (Snip> >The Hand > >"Listen, moron, I'm trying to drink, here. I don't >want to listen to you yap questions at me. Ask me >later." > >"So what if this is the third time you're asking? >Does this look like the face of someone who cares? >(Sighs) Whatever: maybe if I tell you, you'll shut up. > Or just go out and get yourself killed. Either way, >I come out ahead. Well, where's my beer? I don't >talk for free." > >"About time, punk. Anyway, so you've heard about the >oh-so-scary 'Hand of the Council' and you can't wait >to go tangle with them. Yeah, I was that dumb once >... no, I wasn't. Well, you'll learn better." > >"Are you trying to tell me what to do? I didn't think >so. Pathetic: none of the younger generation has any >balls anymore. In my day, a new-made Calabite >wouldn't stop glaring until they put out his eyes ... >damn me, I *am* rambling at the mouth. Right - hey, a >smirk! Good on you. Now pick yourself off the floor >and listen to your betters. > >"Anyway, the Hand ... well, they're just strange, even >for those losers up there. I mean, when the Eternal >Sword or the Snakeskins or the Pests are around, you >know why. Somebody's going to take the long ride, >along with everybody in the vicinity who isn't >squeaky-clean. Bad news, if you're that somebody, >but, hell, if you aren't, no skin off your nose - >besides, there's always a reason. But the Hand ... >they don't even know why they're doing what they're >doing. They get told, 'do this, don't do that, and >make sure you wear purple socks all the time' - and >they do and don't do and wear without even bitching >about it. It's like they've got no free will at all." > >"Jeez, stop whining. You've still got all your teeth, >right? You deserved it, anyway. How many times have >I had to tell you, parrot the BalProp, don't believe >it? If those geeks up there couldn't get their >underused brains to fire over every so often, none of >them would ever come to their senses and flip the >ubergeeks the bird on their way Down. It stands to >reason that they've got free will: we've got more, but >they've got some. > >"But the Hand - it's like they don't at all when it >comes to their jobs. I've seen five of them fight to >the death to protect a puppy - and ten of them get >soul-killed to make sure that the eleventh finishes >pulling up a daisy. Asking them about it's a waste of >time, too: they'll just look at you with those eyes of >theirs and say, 'Because I was told to'. The really >scary bit is, that really is the only reason. No, >actually the fact that most of them can punch through >steel is probably the really scary bit." > >"So, what do we do about them? Me, I favor finding >out what they want ... then getting the Hell out of >their way, if I can. I don't mind taking the lumps >for a bad cause, but getting a Force or three ripped >off because I was trying to stop a bunch of angelic >zombie badasses from smashing an empty school bus just >ain't my style. > >"But, hey, if you want to get involved, it sounds like >that they're still at it. Go right ahead... but buy >me another drink, first. Hell, just leave the wallet: >you won't be needing it." > > >The Hand of the Council is certainly one of the more >quietly disturbing organizations out there: whether >it's more disturbing to angels or to demons is very >much an open question. Obedience is a common trait >among the Host, and so is fanaticism. Neither word >adequately describes the ethos of the Hand. > >Members of this organization (usually called Fingers) >are all highly powerful angels: 16 Forces, a Will of >12 and several centuries of experience are the minimum >requirements for membership. There is no particular >Choir that dominates the Hand's makeup: Malakim and >Elohim are merely the most visible members. They are >not suitable for PCs: indeed, they are not even really >suitable for NPC allies or adversaries. When not on >their missions, they will perform other duties, but >will drop them when the Order comes. When on a >mission, they have no friends, no enemies. It is, >indeed, almost as if they have voluntarily given up >their free will for the sake of Heaven. Whether this >is due to internal discipline or some sort of >Attunement is unknown, and never answered by either >the Fingers or the Council. There is no risk in >asking such an impertinent question, mind: it is >simply ... ignored. > >Fingers of the Hand are all Servitors of Creation: new >members transfer to Eli's service upon joining. The >Archangel apparently has not abandoned all of his >responsibilities: prospective Fingers go out into the >world, and eventually come back as Creationers. The >mental gyrations needed for certain of his colleagues >to ignore this are amusing, in a detached way. > >Such gyrations are needed, as the turnover of new >Fingers is fairly steady. The Hand is used to enforce >the will of the Council: while there may be more >powerful Servitors out there, the group is unique in >their ability to utterly s u b sume their own >self-preservation for the sake of the mission. Any >mission, no matter how absurd or pointless that it >might be. Once an Order is given, it is followed to >the letter and the spirit, with no hesitation, >apprehension or later recrimination. The absolute >trust that this implies is, frankly, staggering. > >Naturally, such a resource is not casually used. >Missions for the Hand require an Order, personally >signed by at least seven major Superiors, who have >demonstrated /to the satisfaction of the Finger who is >carrying the potential Order/ that he, she or it >understands and agrees to the mission. While this may >seem presumptuous, the policy originates from the >Council itself: tragedies can - have - result as the >result of a careless signature. Once the Order is >signed, the Finger carrying it chooses those to >perform the mission (which may include him or >herself). > >The missions undertaken by the Hand ... follow no real >pattern. Sometimes the objective is clear, and >sometimes it is only comprehensible to the Archangels >themselves. Violence is not always a hallmark of a >Hand operation, either: indeed, sometimes any violent >activity is absolutely forbidden. The only common >denominator is that each mission is considered to be >somehow of vital importance by seven of the most >powerful beings in the universe. This keeps Hand >missions rare: getting seven Archangels to agree on >anything can be ... complicated. > >The general rule for combating Fingers who are on a >mission is: don't. They do not have an unblemished >record, but no Finger has ever been dissuaded or >distracted from his, her or its willingly-assumed >purpose by anything less than soul-death. This >includes such normal deterrents as dissonance or >disturbance. Such determination, mixed with their >inherent abilities, make them hideous foes ... but you >can always get out of their way. > >It used to be said that no Finger has ever Fallen, but >that became untrue three centuries ago. The fact was >cold comfort to Hell. Essentially, an Ofanite Finger >realized that his team's mission objective (the >destruction of a particularly dangerous Balseraph of >Fate) was holed up in Kronos' Archive, and wasn't >coming out until the Fingers went away. Therefore, >the Ofanite Jumped, made his way to Hell via an >Infernal Tether ... and soul-killed his quarry. He >then somehow made his way back up to Earth and the >attention of an Archangel. > >The Finger did not survive the Redemption process. > >Needless to say, the Council has been careful to deny >that particular option to future Orders... but it >still shows the extent of the Hand's s u b mission to >the will of their Superiors. No questions asked ... >or even thought. > >Again, the trust that this implies is staggering. ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 07/29/01(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 16:33:17 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: New Group (Was Re: IN> Iron Rev III: The Demon of Yogurt) > >It used to be said that no Finger has ever Fallen, >but > >that became untrue three centuries ago. The fact was > >cold comfort to Hell. When they realised they'd been given the finger, presumably ... jo _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 10:09:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: New Group (Was Re: IN> Iron Rev III: The Demon of Yogurt) - --- Jo Hart wrote: > > >It used to be said that no Finger has ever > Fallen, > >but > > >that became untrue three centuries ago. The fact > was > > >cold comfort to Hell. > > > When they realised they'd been given the finger, > presumably ... > You know, I didn't actually think of that, but ... yeah. :) Moe "Odd how my subconscious mind goes for the puns that I consciously try to avoid" Lane ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 07/29/01(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 17:34:37 +0000 From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: Re: New Group (Was Re: IN> Iron Rev III: The Demon of Yogurt) Not only is this wonderful as it stands, but it goes beautifully with the theory (with which I concur) that Eli isn't just dodging the draft but is actually up to something useful. (As in the recent posting "Consider the World.") However: > >It used to be said that no Finger has ever Fallen, >but > >that became untrue three centuries ago. The fact was > >cold comfort to Hell. Essentially, an Ofanite Finger > >realized that his team's mission objective (the > >destruction of a particularly dangerous Balseraph of > >Fate) was holed up in Kronos' Archive, and wasn't > >coming out until the Fingers went away. Therefore, > >the Ofanite Jumped, made his way to Hell via an > >Infernal Tether ... and soul-killed his quarry. He > >then somehow made his way back up to Earth and the > >attention of an Archangel. > > > >The Finger did not survive the Redemption process. From a storytelling point of view, this is perfect. However, from any other point of view -- if this guy couldn't survive a Redemption, then no one can, and the Redemptionists are just wasting everyone's time. If this guy didn't fulfil the requirements for a successful Redemption, who does? If the Host didn't get its most skilled, precise, delicate, empathetic Archangel to do it (believe it or not, I think Novalis or Michael would be the two best. Don't let David or Dominic anywhere near.), why didn't they? Other than that, of course, I enjoyed it. Janet Anderson * * * * Beware the anger of a patient bard. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 17:51:56 From: "Jo Hart" Subject: Re: New Group (Was Re: IN> Iron Rev III: The Demon of Yogurt) >From: "Janet Anderson" > >> > >> >The Finger did not survive the Redemption process. > >From a storytelling point of view, this is perfect. However, from any >other >point of view -- if this guy couldn't survive a Redemption, then no one >can, >and the Redemptionists are just wasting everyone's time. Maybe they are. Redemption is a strange and unpredictable process. A lot of _angels_ wouldn't survive it, if they had to go through it themselves. Perhaps the demon harboured traces of pride or arrogance in his heart, or a secret thrill in using demonic powers, or considered that his position made him immune from having to be properly contrite. A lot of redemptions fail. Even redemptions that those involved expected to be "a sure thing." Some redemptions succeed and surprise everyone. It's not completely unknown for a demon to have a moment of clarity, and simply turn up unannounced at a tether, and be redeemed almost effortlessly. Similarly, it's not unknown for a penitent to spend years in meditation and service before an archangel will make the attempt, and still fail. There's always that unpredictable element. Some people call it "faith." This is why Jean doesn't have a redemption squad (oh, if any of his servitors become intrigued by a demon he'll send an expert down to assess it's potential and report back, but they don't go out of their way); instead he has Universal Exports. jo _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 13:47:30 -0400 From: "John J. Maurer, Esq." Subject: Re: New Group (Was Re: IN> Iron Rev III: The Demon of Yogurt) - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Janet Anderson" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 1:34 PM Subject: Re: New Group (Was Re: IN> Iron Rev III: The Demon of Yogurt) > > >The Finger did not survive the Redemption process. > > From a storytelling point of view, this is perfect. However, from any other > point of view -- if this guy couldn't survive a Redemption, then no one can, > and the Redemptionists are just wasting everyone's time. I completely disagree. This is an example of someone who deliberately jumped. He looked Hell square in the mouth and said, "All right. Take me. I voluntarialy and of my own free will join your camp." You can't just call a cosmic "do-over" after something like that. It leaves a terrible taste in my mouth just thinking about it. Jumping is not just a matter of putting on a new hat. It is a deliberate descent into the enemy camp. However good the motives, it shouldn't be so simple. If anything, my argument would be that as a requirement for jumping, the ofanite would have had to give up his mission, and the fact that he still was pursuing it suggests that he actually performed some sort of subterfuge to get into hell and did not "jump" Speaks ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 14:08:57 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: New Group (Was Re: IN> Iron Rev III: The Demon of Yogurt) Jo Hart wrote: > This is why Jean doesn't have a redemption squad [...]; instead > he has Universal Exports. Qu'est-que ce "Universal Exports"? Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 14:37:44 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> August is FANTASY MONTH! At 2:55 AM -0700 7/31/01, O. S. Kerr wrote: >Darn, > >I was hoping for a little Lilith on Laurence action... > >That's *my* version of IN Fantasy... You'd think that should be Lilith-Gabriel action. I mean, that has all the qualifications to be hentai: Hot Girlz, and Girl-Guy Shifting Action if you want it with Gaby. Get Andre(a) in on it, and it's really out there... Ahem. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 14:41:44 -0400 From: Cameron McCurry Subject: IN> James, Saint of War The Calabite snarled as the Malakite tackled him in the horrid smelling alley. The two Celestials rolled on the ground and tried to end the battle quickly. A blast of pure hatred from the Destroyer sent the Malakite off of the demon. The Virtue rolled back up ready to continue the battle. But as the demon advanced, another man joined the fray. The sword in his hand cut through the Calabite quickly and the demon fell to the ground. The Virtue walked up and nodded to the man. "Thank you for your help." The man locked eyes with the Malakite as he wiped the blood off of his sword. "Save it. I was doing my job just like you. But you damn well better pay for that store window you and your friend here just shattered." The Malakite sputtered in anger. "What? How dare you-" "I dare pretty damn easily," the man answered. "Mr. Collins, the store owner there, saved for a year to get that window. I don't care that you and the demon destroyed it; you're going to pay for it." The Virtue had heard quite enough. He advanced on the man menacingly. "Listen, Soldier. In this War, there is a thing called collateral damage. If you have a problem with that-" The remainder of what the Malakite was going to say was lost as the man twisted the Virtue's arm and slammed him against the alleyway. "Yes I do. You better learn that sometimes the collateral damage that you cause hurts the people you fight for. And if you're next move after I let you go is anything other than going up to Mr. Collins and paying for that window, I'm going to send you back to your Heart." The man released the angel and stepped aside. There was no expression on the man's face at all. He stared at the Virtue as the angel sent his Resonance against the man who had fought him. And within a second, he knew what this man was. He bowed to him in what the Malakite hoped would be taken correctly. "Forgive me, Saint of War. You were right in what you said. I will pay for the damage that was done." Without another word, the Virtue walked towards the store as the owner was surveying the damage. James nodded in satisfaction as the Malakite walked away. Looks like this one had a brain in his head. There was some hope. James is one of Michael's oldest living Saints. Very little was known about his life on Earth other than he was a warrior out in Scotland that rode out against the Roman Empire. He became a Soldier of War and served honorably throughout his life. Upon arriving at the Groves, he asked to return to Earth as a Saint and his request was quickly granted. He's been on Earth ever since, in the same vessel that he was given. A Saint's purpose in the War is to look out for humanity and guide them along the path of righteousness. James took to this with the same passion he lived life. He stayed out of the War as best he could, only becoming a combatant when it was unavoidable. But after a few centuries he noticed a disturbing trend amongst some of the Host. Some angels began to see humans as little more than living chess pieces and expendable ones at that. He made his way to the closest Tether of War and through the aid of the Seneschal, brought the matter up to Michael himself. The Saint and the Archangel of War talked for several hours. James could be heard arguing passionately and Michael did his best to explain things to his Saint. Once the conversation had ended, James went back to Earth. Several angels that had worked with him noticed that he was somewhat...different, but let the matter slide. And James returned to work with a slightly different focus. Not only would he help humans, he would make sure that the war harmed as few innocents as possible. With demons, it's usually a matter of destroying their vessel if he encounters them or spying on them long enough to give a good file on them to the Host. With angels, he makes sure that they make reparations to humans that they hurt and that they always remember who they are fighting for. He prefers non violent methods of getting his point across, but will draw a sword or pummel an angel that tries to argue with him. To date, he has been somewhat successful. The angels that have been in town longer do their best to help the Saint in his mission. He even helps younger angels as they try to adapt to their missions on Earth. Since he is able to change the appearance and age of his Vessel, it is hard to spot him in a crowd, which makes most of the demons cautious when they know the Saint is in the area. But James still stays away from the fighting as best he can. Let the Celestials fight each other; he's content to protect humanity. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 11:46:45 -0700 From: daiv Subject: Re: IN> August is FANTASY MONTH! On Tuesday, July 31, 2001, at 11:37 AM, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 2:55 AM -0700 7/31/01, O. S. Kerr wrote: >> Darn, >> >> I was hoping for a little Lilith on Laurence action... >> >> That's *my* version of IN Fantasy... > > You'd think that should be Lilith-Gabriel action. I mean, that > has all the qualifications to be hentai: Hot Girlz, and Girl-Guy > Shifting Action if you want it with Gaby. > > Get Andre(a) in on it, and it's really out there... > > > Ahem. > > > Now stop that. I have been a very Good Boy about not posting the Gabriel as a Dominatrix figure ("Tell me, have you Been... Cruel?). After all, Hot wax is a fairly standard part of the BDSM toolbox (coming soon to an infomercial near you, from yet another Nybas / Andre production, The BDSM Toolbox. With instructions written by Kobal, naturally). Hot lava is just the natural next step, right? And I had a friend in High school (back in the eighties, mind you, in small town california) who wrote Slave / Mistress porn that included branding scenes (you know, white hot iron on the skin?)... So, it is perhaps just as well that we not go there. oh. wait. Too late. -Daiv, Tech writer in service to coffee, in search of a superior ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 11:46:45 -0700 From: daiv Subject: Re: IN> August is FANTASY MONTH! On Tuesday, July 31, 2001, at 11:37 AM, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 2:55 AM -0700 7/31/01, O. S. Kerr wrote: >> Darn, >> >> I was hoping for a little Lilith on Laurence action... >> >> That's *my* version of IN Fantasy... > > You'd think that should be Lilith-Gabriel action. I mean, that > has all the qualifications to be hentai: Hot Girlz, and Girl-Guy > Shifting Action if you want it with Gaby. > > Get Andre(a) in on it, and it's really out there... > > > Ahem. > > > Now stop that. I have been a very Good Boy about not posting the Gabriel as a Dominatrix figure ("Tell me, have you Been... Cruel?). After all, Hot wax is a fairly standard part of the BDSM toolbox (coming soon to an infomercial near you, from yet another Nybas / Andre production, The BDSM Toolbox. With instructions written by Kobal, naturally). Hot lava is just the natural next step, right? And I had a friend in High school (back in the eighties, mind you, in small town california) who wrote Slave / Mistress porn that included branding scenes (you know, white hot iron on the skin?)... So, it is perhaps just as well that we not go there. oh. wait. Too late. -Daiv, Tech writer in service to coffee, in search of a superior ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 16:48:44 -0400 From: "William J. Keith" Subject: Re: IN> August is FANTASY MONTH! >Mechanics especially: frex, armor in IN is >woefully deficient... > >Moe "Miracles and the secrets of the universe are all >very well, but could someone please quantify the >movement rules?" Lane And the Reform In Nominees just grin.... William ------------------------------ Date: 31 Jul 2001 15:22:19 -0400 From: "Matthew B. Gerber" Subject: Re: New Group (Was Re: IN> Iron Rev III: The Demon of Yogurt) On 31 Jul 2001 13:47:30 -0400, John J. Maurer, Esq. wrote: > This is an example of someone who deliberately jumped. He looked Hell > square in the mouth and said, "All right. Take me. I voluntarialy and of my > own free will join your camp." You can't just call a cosmic "do-over" after > something like that. It leaves a terrible taste in my mouth just thinking > about it. If he had abandoned Heaven, yes. However, he didn't abandon Heaven. Fingers, according to Moe's post, permit no interference of their personal desire with their Heavenly duties once they have accepted an Order. Therefore, the Ofanite cannot have Jumped because he had any desire to be a Demon: he can only have Jumped because he genuinely believed it was necessary to complete his task. Hence the Ofanite is necessarily not in rebellion to Heaven. Saying that he has "joined the enemy camp" doesn't hold. Becoming a Demon is not something that happens in a vacuum: you don't magically become a creature that immediately sees why Lucifer was right when you Fall. The state of being a Demon in the In Nomine universe does not necessarily mean that you are morally aligned with the forces of Hell--it cannot, since otherwise Redemptions would become vacuously impossible. Hence the Ofanite is not necessarily in moral alignment with Hell. The Ofanite, now a Calabite, made it into Hell, destroyed his quarry in Hell, and escaped thereafter. The personal risk was incalculable: it is starkly incredible that he survived long enough to even find his quarry, let alone destroy it. It is clear that he was still driven by his mission from Heaven. It is equally clear that he desired to return. Here we may pause to examine one possibility: that the Ofanite, during the course of executing the Order, once he was finished decided that he enjoyed, in some fashion, being a Calabite--that he allowed himself, during his experience as a Demon, to morally gravitate toward Hell. It is possible that he did not survive Redemption for this reason: however, it would imply a great deal of stupidity on the part of the Archangel for attempting the process without proper repatriation. That possibility exhausted, all that is left is that he is still morally aligned with, ergo wishes to return to, Heaven. So, let's review. (1) The Ofanite did not rebel. (2) The Ofanite was willing to risk his existence to complete his Heavenly orders. (3) The Ofanite is still in moral alignment with Heaven. As long as we discard the "the Archangel was an idiot" theory to get (3), we arrive at Janet's position. The idea that he did not survive Redemption should be morally untenable to any Angel with a true belief in the concept. To me, the only consistent explanation is Jo's--that there is *no* reliable way, *none*, for determining whether a Demon will survive Redemption or not, since if there is anything governing it beyond starkest serendipity, this Demon should. Which makes it a really, really, really Dark setting of IN. (Of course, Moe said it was Dark to begin with. The only thing we've really illuminated is that it *has* to be.) Matt ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 14:17:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurice Lane Subject: Re: New Group (Was Re: IN> Iron Rev III: The Demon of Yogurt) - --- "Matthew B. Gerber" wrote: > On 31 Jul 2001 13:47:30 -0400, John J. Maurer, Esq. > wrote: > > > This is an example of someone who deliberately > jumped. He looked Hell > > square in the mouth and said, "All right. Take me. > I voluntarialy and of my > > own free will join your camp." You can't just > call a cosmic "do-over" after > > something like that. It leaves a terrible taste in > my mouth just thinking > > about it. > > If he had abandoned Heaven, yes. However, he didn't > abandon Heaven. No, he just abandoned God - but that's par for the course for these guys. Notice that the group name isn't Hand of the Lord... I'll be expounding on this later tonight (plus how it ain't necessarily Dark). :) Moe ===== Liber Licentiae Moeticae: http://www.stormloader.com/users/moelane/innomine.html Last updated 07/29/01(this is usually way out of date) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 17:50:07 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: New Group (Was Re: IN> Iron Rev III: The Demon of Yogurt) At 3:22 PM -0400 7/31/01, Matthew B. Gerber wrote: >On 31 Jul 2001 13:47:30 -0400, John J. Maurer, Esq. wrote: > >> This is an example of someone who deliberately jumped. He looked Hell >> square in the mouth and said, "All right. Take me. I voluntarialy and of my >> own free will join your camp." You can't just call a cosmic "do-over" after >> something like that. It leaves a terrible taste in my mouth just thinking >> about it. > >If he had abandoned Heaven, yes. However, he didn't abandon Heaven. Perhaps, after he 'came to himself' or however it works with the Fingers, he couldn't stand what he'd done? He simply returned to Heaven because it was better than living a life where he hated himself, and he couldn't _forgive_ himself. Or he couldn't trust enough, since he'd not been _prevented_... Falling isn't a cut and dried thing, I'd think. Nor is redemption. I'd write more, especially about one of my characters who appears on the fiction page of the INC, but the baby is restive. I will point at the Dominic section of S1, where a Djinn returns to the, er, fold -- and dies. Suicide, apparently. She didn't wish to live, with what she had done. Suicidal tendencies may help some demons get through the 'giving oneself up to the Symphony' aspects of redemption; it's probably worth a try. But sometims suicidal is suicidal... - --Beth, typing w/a uncoopertive baby (iolanthe) causing typos. arcangel is nursing a trout with ARMS! ARMS that reach out and try to pound the keyboard! You say "And teeth. Ow." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 15:26:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Walton Subject: Re: IN> I did not write this. I did NOT write this. I DID NOT WRITE THIS... (Somewhere between PG-13 & R)) - --- Maurice Lane wrote: > ...my girlfriend did: my sweet, innocent, Archangelic > girlfriend. After reading this, I seriously doubt those adjectives. > "I love it!" the Media crowed. "Um... who's that > supposed to be?" He indicated the character doomed to > the fiery dominatrix's clutches. Andre smiled > mysteriously, and Nybbas read the clunky dialogue with > a sigh. "'Tell me you deserve it! Tell me it's > Just!' Oh. Da*n me! Forgot the old snake had that > female vessel." Tell Jamie from me that this is completely _wrong_. OTOH, it opens up the possibility of cats for the bestiality angle... ===== Michael Walton, #9805-068 The trouble with doing something right the first time is that nobody appreciates how difficult it was. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 20:24:44 -0400 From: Matthew Gerber Subject: Re: New Group (Was Re: IN> Iron Rev III: The Demon of Yogurt) Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >Perhaps, after he 'came to himself' or however it works with the >Fingers, he couldn't stand what he'd done? He simply returned to >Heaven because it was better than living a life where he hated himself, >and he couldn't _forgive_ himself. Or he couldn't trust enough, since >he'd not been _prevented_... > Admittedly, this also works. But I'd tend to think it also falls under "um, why didn't the Archangel catch this?", albeit not so strongly as noticing taints of selfishness... >Falling isn't a cut and dried thing, I'd think. Nor is redemption. > Right. This just felt (and feels) a lot like "um, if not this guy, then *who?*". >I'd write more, especially about one of my characters who appears on >the fiction page of the INC, but the baby is restive. I will point at >the Dominic section of S1, where a Djinn returns to the, er, fold -- and >dies. Suicide, apparently. She didn't wish to live, with what she had >done. > >Suicidal tendencies may help some demons get through the 'giving oneself >up to the Symphony' aspects of redemption; it's probably worth a try. But >sometims suicidal is suicidal... > Granted again--and this is the best reason I could see so far that an Archangel, particularly a more militant one, might try a redemption and have it fail. (In general I'm really, really, really hesitant to ascribe impatient or imperceptive mistakes to Archangels when it comes to "risky procedures". It'd seem to me that they've been there, done that, and not only have the T-shirt, they could open a little outlet store down on International Drive where they sell all the T-shirts they've accumulated.) (We may now pause to consider whether a T-shirt previously worn by an Archangel is an artifact.) The main point I was trying to make isn't that this guy Should Absolutely Have Survived Redemption--it's that it makes the setting disturbing if he didn't, absent further explanation as to why. (To be even more specific, the point that I was going after with both barrels was that the idea he *would* survive Redemption, also absent further explanation, was repugnant. To me, that doesn't play at all. IMHO, IMC, YMMV, HTH...) Matt ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 20:26:50 -0400 From: Matthew Gerber Subject: Re: New Group (Was Re: IN> Iron Rev III: The Demon of Yogurt) Maurice Lane wrote: >No, he just abandoned God - but that's par for the >course for these guys. Notice that the group name >isn't Hand of the Lord... > >I'll be expounding on this later tonight (plus how it >ain't necessarily Dark). :) > o/~ One of these things is not like the others, one of these things does not belong... o/~ Of course, if I try to say there's no way to fit these ideas together, I'm *certain* you'll cheerfully prove to me that there is. So I'm going to wait until you expound before commenting. If I post random gibberish instead, you'll know you've driven me mad again. Don't worry, my family has assured me the episodes pass in a day or two. Matt ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 20:47:27 -0400 From: Jonathan Walton Subject: IN> Re: Gaiman & the EPG >Heh. That wasn't too hard, actually. I wonder how >many links there are to Kevin Smith? Hmm ... 5) Neil Gaiman calls DC Comics 6) DC Comics calls Kevin Smith (currently writing "Green Arrow," of all things) 7) Kevin Smith agrees to film the In Nomine movie, despite the fact that he already tried and failed with Dogma. Gotcha there in 7. Later. Jonathan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 22:52:57 -0400 From: Mike Bruner Subject: Re: IN> August is FANTASY MONTH! > Now stop that. I have been a very Good Boy about not posting the >Gabriel as a Dominatrix figure ("Tell me, have you Been... Cruel?). >After all, Hot wax is a fairly standard part of the BDSM toolbox (coming >soon to an infomercial near you, from yet another Nybas / Andre >production, The BDSM Toolbox. With instructions written by Kobal, >naturally). Not that Nybas/Andre actually WANTED Kobal's input, but he felt it SCREAMED out for his assistance so badly that he couldn't waste time discussing the matter before tweaking the writing a bit... ("Safeword - the word that is chosen carefully beforehand to indicate when used that you want the dom to hit you with a safe" :)). Actually, I'm pretty sure Vapula farms out his manual writing and tech support to Kobal too... >Hot lava is just the natural next step, right? And I had a friend in High school >(back in the eighties, mind you, in small town california) who wrote Slave / >Mistress porn that included branding scenes (you know, white hot iron on the >skin?)... > So, it is perhaps just as well that we not go there. > oh. wait. Too late. Eh, everybody was there already; you just wrote it down first :). - -- Mike Bruner-- bruner@delaware.infi.net I try to take one day at a time, but sometimes several days attack me at once. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 23:05:18 -0400 From: Mike Bruner Subject: Re: New Group (Was Re: IN> Iron Rev III: The Demon of Yogurt) >> This is an example of someone who deliberately jumped. He looked Hell >> square in the mouth and said, "All right. Take me. I voluntarialy and of my >> own free will join your camp." You can't just call a cosmic "do-over" after >> something like that. It leaves a terrible taste in my mouth just thinking >> about it. > >If he had abandoned Heaven, yes. However, he didn't abandon Heaven. >As long as we discard the "the Archangel was an idiot" theory to get >(3), we arrive at Janet's position. The idea that he did not survive >Redemption should be morally untenable to any Angel with a true belief >in the concept. To me, the only consistent explanation is Jo's--that >there is *no* reliable way, *none*, for determining whether a Demon will >survive Redemption or not, since if there is anything governing it >beyond starkest serendipity, this Demon should. Well, Habballah can be in "moral alignment" with Heaven, but obviously they aren't exactly Redemption material automatically. I tend to think Falling is de facto treason against God directly; by denying the nature you were created with, you oppose God's plan. The Habballah are demons not because they necessarily deny Heaven's goals, but because they put their own perspectives ahead of God's. So for the example here, the Offanite might very well have truly turned from God by accomplishing his mission this way; obedience to Archangels does not equal obeying God's true will necessarily. It is possible (although difficult) for angels to betray their Archangels without Falling from dissonance; I would think this also means one can Fall without deliberate betrayal of Heaven's cause. Certainly if you regard the Purity Crusade as wrong, then you have the precedent that Heaven's plans may not always accord with God's plans. If the whole basis for Redemption is being in accord with God rather than the Council, then the Offanite might have been a horrible candidate for Redemption precisely because he was so convinced he did the right thing, when in reality he had crossed the line from God's perspective. - -- Mike Bruner-- bruner@delaware.infi.net I try to take one day at a time, but sometimes several days attack me at once. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #2323 ******************************** The material here is (C) 2001 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.