in_nomine-digest Tuesday, February 4 1997 Volume 01 : Number 011 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 12:30:19 -0600 (CST) From: rogue@ez-net.com (RogueLdr) Subject: Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #10 After suffering through all this discussion on the proper pronunciation of "In Nomine," I just have to ask- Is there a Demon Prince of Linguistics? Three days and counting! - -Rogue ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 12:37:34 -0600 (CST) From: fish Subject: hmm... Out of curiosity, does anyone know when preorders of In Nomine ordered directly from SJGames are supposed to arrive? I should hope that they didn't just count themselves as another distributor, and thus hold the orders until Wednesday... -- fish. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Feb 97 12:52:25 -0800 From: "Jason Newquist" Subject: Re: hmm... - --Cyberdog-AltBoundary-0024A6FC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fish said: > Out of curiosity, does anyone know when preorders of In Nomine > ordered directly from SJGames are supposed to arrive? I should hope that > they didn't just count themselves as another distributor, and thus hold > the orders until Wednesday... SJ Games told me that my order (placed last week) would indeed ship on the 5th. This makes sense. SJ wants to encourage people ordering through retail stores as much as possible, while still providing a service for those who want to get the game online from the publisher. If they released the game early, this would go against their best interests. - --Jason - --Cyberdog-AltBoundary-0024A6FC Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 12PalatinoFish said: > Out of curiosity, does anyone know when preorders of In Nomine > ordered directly from SJGames are supposed to arrive? I should hope that > they didn't just count themselves as another distributor, and thus hold > the orders until Wednesday... SJ Games told me that my order (placed last week) would indeed ship on the 5th. This makes sense. SJ wants to encourage people ordering through retail stores as much as possible, while still providing a service for those who want to get the game online from the publisher. If they released the game early, this would go against their best interests. - --Jason - --Cyberdog-AltBoundary-0024A6FC-- ------------------------------ Date: 2 Feb 97 13:15:57 -0800 From: "Jason Newquist" Subject: The Power of Words - --Cyberdog-AltBoundary-0025F2D6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Folks, I've been stewing over the list of Princes and Archangels recently, and I'm curious about which Words made the list. Not all of the Virtues and Seven Deadlies are represented on their respected lists, and this is perhaps justified. However, it would seem to me that certain absent Words represent conditions so prevalent, so powerful, that their possessors must rank among the most powerful. Which makes me ask: is it possible for a demon/angel to possess an enormously powerful word and yet not be a Prince/Archangel? Obviously, there's politics galore involved in the hierarchies, but if having an amazingly powreful Word isn't enough to have gotten you an Archangelship or Princedom by now (i.e. after thousands of years of time), what is? For instance, it would seem to me that the Demon who possessed the Word of Sickness would be one of the most powerful. From infection to illness to disease to deformations, this guy would have it all. :) Fairly powerful Word, it seems to me. Is it more powreful than Theft? Dark Humor? The Media? Quite possibly. It's more ancient than the Media, does plenty of harm everwhere, and, most importantly, can be quite intimate and dramatic (when you're the Demon of Sickness, you've got to have style). So what gives? Thanks! - --Jason - --Cyberdog-AltBoundary-0025F2D6 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 12PalatinoFolks, I've been stewing over the list of Princes and Archangels recently, and I'm curious about which Words made the list. Not all of the Virtues and Seven Deadlies are represented on their respected lists, and this is perhaps justified. However, it would seem to me that certain absent Words represent conditions so prevalent, so powerful, that their possessors must rank among the most powerful. Which makes me ask: is it possible for a demon/angel to possess an enormously powerful word and yet not be a Prince/Archangel? Obviously, there's politics galore involved in the hierarchies, but if having an amazingly powreful Word isn't enough to have gotten you an Archangelship or Princedom by now (i.e. after thousands of years of time), what is? For instance, it would seem to me that the Demon who possessed the Word of Sickness would be one of the most powerful. From infection to illness to disease to deformations, this guy would have it all. :) Fairly powerful Word, it seems to me. Is it more powreful than Theft? Dark Humor? The Media? Quite possibly. It's more ancient than the Media, does plenty of harm everwhere, and, most importantly, can be quite intimate and dramatic (when you're the Demon of Sickness, you've got to have style). So what gives? Thanks! - --Jason - --Cyberdog-AltBoundary-0025F2D6-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 97 17:50:05 -0600 (CST) From: kestre1@airmail.net (Andrew Getting) Subject: Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #9 At 06:56 PM 2/1/97 -0600, Derek Patton Pearcy wrote: >Yep. I'm working on In Nomine Austin even as we speak. (If I told you about >the last three and a half years of my life, you'd swear there were angels >and demons in Austin, too.) That's the head of Texas government. Of course there are angels and demons there ;> Kestrel ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 97 17:50:05 -0600 (CST) From: kestre1@airmail.net (Andrew Getting) Subject: Re: The "Balance"? At 10:55 PM 2/1/97 -0400, Adam Conover wrote: >First off... phew! All of that language stuff (stemming mostly from my >innocent first post about pronunciation) is finally over! Hip-hip, hooray! > >Ok... here's my question. In most fantasy settings that have to do with >angels/demons, or any sort of "ruling forces" (i.e.: Piers Anthony's >"Incarnations of Immortality"... great series... reading it will give you >some ideas), nothing can actually HAPPEN that will tip the balance. One >side might be slightly strong at one point or another, but neither one will >actually be able to "win". I think of it as sort of the plight of the Lords >in Ravenloft (Ahh! AD&D! :) ... no matter what they do, they'll NEVER get >what they really want. That's just IT. They CAN'T. > >Would it work this way especially in In Nomine? The general idea with a >whole "angel/demon" theory is that of Light and Dark, Yin and Yang. Neither >one can ever dominate. Am I correct in this? I've never liked this idea. It's too deus ex machina for me. If there's a good, in-story reason for stopping the characters, use it. If there isn't, the characters have probably done some phenominal work and deserve a reward. While, more than likely, neither Lucifur nor God are going to be overthrown in the foreseeable future in IN, the minions aren't going to be as fortunate. Kestrel PS: Going by numbers, the angels have already won. Remember that bit about getting kicked out of Heaven? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 18:54:08 -0600 From: dpearcy@io.com (Derek Patton Pearcy) Subject: Becoming Celestial I just received an email, below. See my answer below that. (Please pardon the long quoting, I just want everyone to understand what's going on.) - --------- from Stacy Stroud: I am confused by what seem to be conflicting answers to a question asked on the IN mailing list. I'm mailing you directly to avoid posting lots of quoted material to the list. I asked the original question, and Jason Schneiderman (the fellow with the review copy of the book) responded thusly: >>3) Stacy Stroud asks >>"That reminds me to ask--where do angels come from, in the game reality?" > >As far as I can tell, there are two ways that celestials come into being: > >a) They're born. Most angels and demons are created from the energies and will of their supervisors. > >b) They're made. It is possible for Soldiers, Familiars and the like to gain forces. Once you gain your ninth >force, you *are* a Celestial. Haagenti, the Demon Prince of Gluttony, got his power this way. Naturally, >such ambitious mortals are watched very closely by other Celestials. Later, however, someone else asked a follow-up question, and you replied thusly: >>#1.) If Soldiers Of God/Hell can become Celestials by gaining Forces, is it >>possible for a normal human being to do the same? > >It's not possible for either to become celestials. Human spirits may become >Saints, or Undead, but angels and demons are different creatures entirely. Now, I'm inclined to take your answer over Mr. Schneiderman's, for several reasons (you should know the game better than anyone; his response implied some speculation on his part; and I just *like* your answer better). However, I'm wondering what might have caused the confusion. For example, what is said about Haagenti in the book that might have led Mr. Schneiderman to believe he had once been human? You'll probably be asked this on the list as well, so if you just want to send an overall reply to the list, that's cool. - --------- Mr Schneiderman (henceforth Jason) was correct in his reply, except for one little fact: Soldiers cannot become celestials. This was an assumption of his, based on what he'd read. In the draft he saw, the Saints were probably still included; they've since been pulled from the core book to appear in a supplement (the first supplement, actually). He assumed the Saints were celestials, but technically they are not. When humans die, they do not ever become angels (or demons). Human souls remain human souls. Familiars are celestial spirits bound to corporeal vessels. Celestial spirits (such as gremlins, imps and relievers) may become more powerful celestial spirits, turning into angels and demons. Angels and demons can become Archangels and Demon Princes. Haagenti was never human. Jason's comment about Haagenti refers to the fact that Haagenti was once a familiar, but worked all the way up through the ranks to become a Demon Prince. Derek ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 18:54:16 -0600 From: dpearcy@io.com (Derek Patton Pearcy) Subject: Re: The Power of Words Jason Newquist wrote: >I've been stewing over the list of Princes and Archangels recently, >and I'm curious about which Words made the list. Not all of the >Virtues and Seven Deadlies are represented on their respected lists, >and this is perhaps justified. However, it would seem to me that >certain absent Words represent conditions so prevalent, so powerful, >that their possessors must rank among the most powerful. . . . if a demon were to possess such a Word. >Which makes me ask: is it possible for a demon/angel to possess an >enormously powerful word and yet not be a Prince/Archangel? >Obviously, there's politics galore involved in the hierarchies, but if >having an amazingly powreful Word isn't enough to have gotten you an >Archangelship or Princedom by now (i.e. after thousands of years of >time), what is? > >For instance, it would seem to me that the Demon who possessed the >Word of Sickness would be one of the most powerful. From infection to >illness to disease to deformations, this guy would have it all. :) >Fairly powerful Word, it seems to me. Is it more powreful than Theft? > Dark Humor? The Media? Quite possibly. The demon of Sickness would never languish thousands of years as a non-Superior. If there was one, he was killed off a long time ago and no other demon has climbed up to such a level of power as to rightfully claim it as his own. Remember, Lucifer is the only person who hands out Words to demons; someone doesn't get a Word automatically after rising to a certain level of power. The Prince of Sloth was killed by Haagenti in his rise to power, and no demon in centuries has reclaimed the Word. That's just the way it goes. The entire Principality of Sloth lay unused for the longest time (and its inhabitants were too lazy to move elsewhere). Derek ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:06:25 -0500 (EST) From: Don Fnordlioni Subject: Re: The Power of Words On Sun, 2 Feb 1997, Derek Patton Pearcy wrote: > The demon of Sickness would never languish thousands of years as a > non-Superior. If there was one, he was killed off a long time ago and no > other demon has climbed up to such a level of power as to rightfully claim > it as his own. Remember, Lucifer is the only person who hands out Words to > demons; someone doesn't get a Word automatically after rising to a certain > level of power. Interesting. So, in effect, not every word is represented by a Celestial entity. At least, not any more. | Don Fnordlioni | donfnord@pitt.edu | http://www.pitt.edu/~donfnord | Please use PGP encryption when writing Finger donfnord@pitt.edu for key ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:50:01 -0400 From: revonoc@i-2000.com (Adam Conover) Subject: Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #10 >After suffering through all this discussion on the proper pronunciation of >"In Nomine," I just have to ask- >Is there a Demon Prince of Linguistics? > > >Three days and counting! LOL! That's not a bad idea... a demon who's sole purpose is to convolute the languages of men so much as to make them completely unpronounceable... :) Luckily, we broke away from his vile grip... >;) - --------------------------------------------------------------------- If life is just a game of Dungeons and Dragons, the DM really sucks! ======================================================= | Am I a butterfly dreaming I'm a man? | | Or a bowling ball dreaming I'm a plate of sashami? | | Never assume that what you see and feel is real! | ======================================================= Geek Code: G d? s+: a---- C+++>++++$ U>++ P? L>++ !E? W++>+++$ N+(++) !o? K-? !w--- !O M++ !V? PS(+)? !PE-(--) Y+ !PGP- t+(++) 5- X- R++>+++* tv+ b+++(++)>++++$ DI+++(++)>++++ D---(----) G>+++ e h r- y- revonoc@i-2000.com http://www.i2.i-2000.com/~revonoc/main.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:53:11 -0400 From: revonoc@i-2000.com (Adam Conover) Subject: Re: The Power of Words >For instance, it would seem to me that the Demon who possessed the Word of >>Sickness would be one of the most powerful. From infection to illness to >>disease to deformations, this guy would have it all. :) Fairly powerful >Word, >it seems to me. Is it more powreful than Theft? Dark Humor? The >Media? >Quite possibly. It's more ancient than the Media, does plenty of >harm >everwhere, and, most importantly, can be quite intimate and dramatic >(when >you're the Demon of Sickness, you've got to have style). So what >gives? You do mean PESTILENCE, don't you? :) The Media? No, that's been around for a LONG time... even when all the media was was a couple of smoke signals, or the Church... doesn't necesarily mean only after the printing press... (although I'm sure that he orchestrated that little event of human history). - --------------------------------------------------------------------- If life is just a game of Dungeons and Dragons, the DM really sucks! ======================================================= | Am I a butterfly dreaming I'm a man? | | Or a bowling ball dreaming I'm a plate of sashami? | | Never assume that what you see and feel is real! | ======================================================= Geek Code: G d? s+: a---- C+++>++++$ U>++ P? L>++ !E? W++>+++$ N+(++) !o? K-? !w--- !O M++ !V? PS(+)? !PE-(--) Y+ !PGP- t+(++) 5- X- R++>+++* tv+ b+++(++)>++++$ DI+++(++)>++++ D---(----) G>+++ e h r- y- revonoc@i-2000.com http://www.i2.i-2000.com/~revonoc/main.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:56:23 -0400 From: revonoc@i-2000.com (Adam Conover) Subject: Re: The "Balance"? >>Would it work this way especially in In Nomine? The general idea with a >>whole "angel/demon" theory is that of Light and Dark, Yin and Yang. Neither >>one can ever dominate. Am I correct in this? > >I've never liked this idea. It's too deus ex machina for me. If there's a good, >in-story reason for stopping the characters, use it. If there isn't, the >characters >have probably done some phenominal work and deserve a reward. While, >more than likely, neither Lucifur nor God are going to be overthrown in >the foreseeable future in IN, the minions aren't going to be as fortunate. You misunderstood me... I meant it in a sort of "You can win the battle, but you can't win the war" sort of way... which kinda makes sense to me. I mean, if one suddenly won, wouldn't the whole world kinda go "kablooey"? I think that maybe the whole point is (and perhaps the Celestials lower on the ladder don't realize this) is to more or less "tread water"... just making sure that the OTHER doesn't win. Demons might "take over" Chicago, while the Angels rule at the Vatican, but neither can really "take over" the world. It's kind of a flaw... not a particularily glaring one, I suppose... but still one to me. :) - --------------------------------------------------------------------- If life is just a game of Dungeons and Dragons, the DM really sucks! ======================================================= | Am I a butterfly dreaming I'm a man? | | Or a bowling ball dreaming I'm a plate of sashami? | | Never assume that what you see and feel is real! | ======================================================= Geek Code: G d? s+: a---- C+++>++++$ U>++ P? L>++ !E? W++>+++$ N+(++) !o? K-? !w--- !O M++ !V? PS(+)? !PE-(--) Y+ !PGP- t+(++) 5- X- R++>+++* tv+ b+++(++)>++++$ DI+++(++)>++++ D---(----) G>+++ e h r- y- revonoc@i-2000.com http://www.i2.i-2000.com/~revonoc/main.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 21:59:47 -0600 (CST) From: fish Subject: Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #10 On Sun, 2 Feb 1997, Adam Conover wrote: > >Is there a Demon Prince of Linguistics? > > LOL! That's not a bad idea... a demon who's sole purpose is to convolute > the languages of men so much as to make them completely unpronounceable... Nah, you're thinking of God -- remember Babel? If anything, it's demonic technology (courtesy of Vapula) that has allowed us to all have a common tongue, namely English. Or at least the Internet interacts primarily in English... -- fish. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 23:03:03 -0400 From: revonoc@i-2000.com (Adam Conover) Subject: Re: The Power of Words >The demon of Sickness would never languish thousands of years as a >non-Superior. If there was one, he was killed off a long time ago and no >other demon has climbed up to such a level of power as to rightfully claim >it as his own. Remember, Lucifer is the only person who hands out Words to >demons; someone doesn't get a Word automatically after rising to a certain >level of power. The Prince of Sloth was killed by Haagenti in his rise to >power, and no demon in centuries has reclaimed the Word. That's just the >way it goes. The entire Principality of Sloth lay unused for the longest >time (and its inhabitants were too lazy to move elsewhere). So... all that it needs at "this point", is for an enterprising demon to, more or less, make a lot of people sick in a really interesting way, and he gets the Word, as no one else is using it? (It is, of course, a lot more complicated and drawn out than that... but... in a nutshell. :) That's neat... meaning that the PCs could eventually get their own words. ("He Who Disfigures Small Animals!" Hah! :) Kinda like (if I may make another obscure AD&D reference) becoming a Heirophant Druid. :) Were these words left out intentionally, to leave opportunities open? btw... how is advancement done in this game? I assume that it's not through levels (not much is anymore)... is there any real character "power" advancement, or is it just "working your way up through the ranks", and getting a big bonus at the end? :) - --------------------------------------------------------------------- If life is just a game of Dungeons and Dragons, the DM really sucks! ======================================================= | Am I a butterfly dreaming I'm a man? | | Or a bowling ball dreaming I'm a plate of sashami? | | Never assume that what you see and feel is real! | ======================================================= Geek Code: G d? s+: a---- C+++>++++$ U>++ P? L>++ !E? W++>+++$ N+(++) !o? K-? !w--- !O M++ !V? PS(+)? !PE-(--) Y+ !PGP- t+(++) 5- X- R++>+++* tv+ b+++(++)>++++$ DI+++(++)>++++ D---(----) G>+++ e h r- y- revonoc@i-2000.com http://www.i2.i-2000.com/~revonoc/main.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:02:09 -0600 (CST) From: fish Subject: Re: The Power of Words On Sun, 2 Feb 1997, Adam Conover wrote: > The Media? No, that's been around for a LONG time... even when all the > media was was a couple of smoke signals, or the Church... The Church never really played a role in the transmission of information. Medieval troubadours were much more important as far as that went. If anything, the Church constricted information -- monasteries didn't exactly open up their records and illuminated manuscripts to any random barbarian or Frank who came knocking on their doors... -- ifhs. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:07:13 -0600 (CST) From: fish Subject: Re: The "Balance"? On Sun, 2 Feb 1997, Adam Conover wrote: > You misunderstood me... I meant it in a sort of "You can win the battle, > but you can't win the war" sort of way... I also disagree with this sort of gnostic interpretation. I think it's pretty clear that angels and demons both (at many different levels) take their jobs _very_ seriously. Certainly from the perspective of modern religion each individual soul saved or corrupted is a small victory for that side. And just examine the amount of political infighting that goes on in Heaven over who controls the course of the War -- certainly if everyone were just devoted to continuing the status quo they wouldn't bother, and Khalid wouldn't be such a great influence. And for the record, the political infighting that goes on in Hell isn't as good of a benchmark from which to mark devotion to the conflict - -- since demons are by their very nature selfish, such power struggles are inherent to their being. -- fish. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Feb 97 20:34:06 -0800 From: "Jason Newquist" Subject: Re: The Power of Words Adam Conover said: >You do mean PESTILENCE, don't you? :) I stand corrected. Pestilence is a superior choice. However, I can see how the *precise* choice of Word matters. Sickness is a subset of Pestilence, and Disease is an even more skinny subset. >The Media? No, that's been around for a LONG time... even when all the >media was was a couple of smoke signals, or the Church... doesn't >necesarily mean only after the printing press... (although I'm sure that he >orchestrated that little event of human history). Smoke signals as Media? Howls of riotous disagreement. But this is a tangential issue. The main point here, though, to reply to Derek's statement: > Remember, Lucifer is the only person who hands out Words to > demons; someone doesn't get a Word automatically after rising > to a certain level of power. Agreement in principle, though it's in Lucifer's best interest to have powerful minions (to a point). Is his intent merely to survive the onlaught of the Host or to vanquish it? It would seem to me that the Prince of Pestilence (nee Sickness, for some of us come from humbler stock) would be a powerful minion of the Dark Lord. I don't see a reason for his not existing, thus. Pending, of course, reading the rulebook. :-) - --Jason ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 97 00:13:25 -0600 (CST) From: kestre1@airmail.net (Andrew Getting) Subject: Re: The "Balance"? At 10:56 PM 2/2/97 -0400, Adam Conover wrote: >>>Would it work this way especially in In Nomine? The general idea with a >>>whole "angel/demon" theory is that of Light and Dark, Yin and Yang. Neither >>>one can ever dominate. Am I correct in this? >> >>I've never liked this idea. It's too deus ex machina for me. If there's a good, >>in-story reason for stopping the characters, use it. If there isn't, the >>characters >>have probably done some phenominal work and deserve a reward. While, >>more than likely, neither Lucifur nor God are going to be overthrown in >>the foreseeable future in IN, the minions aren't going to be as fortunate. > >You misunderstood me... I meant it in a sort of "You can win the battle, >but you can't win the war" sort of way... which kinda makes sense to me. I >mean, if one suddenly won, wouldn't the whole world kinda go "kablooey"? I >think that maybe the whole point is (and perhaps the Celestials lower on >the ladder don't realize this) is to more or less "tread water"... just >making sure that the OTHER doesn't win. Demons might "take over" Chicago, >while the Angels rule at the Vatican, but neither can really "take over" >the world. It's kind of a flaw... not a particularily glaring one, I >suppose... but still one to me. :) Actually, I understood perfectly. It's still deus ex machina. How do you know the victory of one side over the other will destroy the world? From my POV, it's more likely that the end of the world would be a side-effect of the war itself, not the end result. As I said, if the players can some up with an exceptionally brilliant plan, I'll let them win. Kestrel ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 11:00:24 EST From: jdye@juno.com (JOHN C DYE) Subject: Re: The "Balance"? >>I've never liked this idea. It's too deus ex machina for me. If >there's a good, >>in-story reason for stopping the characters, use it. If there isn't, >the >>characters >>have probably done some phenominal work and deserve a reward. While, >>more than likely, neither Lucifur nor God are going to be overthrown >in >>the foreseeable future in IN, the minions aren't going to be as >fortunate. revonoc wrote: >You misunderstood me... I meant it in a sort of "You can win the >battle, >but you can't win the war" sort of way... which kinda makes sense to >me. I >mean, if one suddenly won, wouldn't the whole world kinda go >"kablooey"? I >think that maybe the whole point is (and perhaps the Celestials lower >on >the ladder don't realize this) is to more or less "tread water"... >just >making sure that the OTHER doesn't win. Demons might "take over" >Chicago, >while the Angels rule at the Vatican, but neither can really "take >over" >the world. It's kind of a flaw... not a particularily glaring one, I >suppose... but still one to me. :) That is one element that is distinguishing from the Judeo-Christo-Islamic religions from most of the others. Eastern Faiths see the cycle of time as a wheel, the same things over and over again (which explains some of the lack of speed in the technology department in the last 2 centuries [since made up for before I get majorly flamed]). In JCI, there is a beginning a middle and an end. While it may seem like an elegant symmatry to put it into an eastern model, it does not reflect the tone of the original source material (not the stuff from France :-). It is of course your game, but that is my 2 cents, and I give my reasons for the conflict in another letter. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 11:00:24 EST From: jdye@juno.com (JOHN C DYE) Subject: Re: The Power of Words On Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:02:09 -0600 (CST) fish writes: >On Sun, 2 Feb 1997, Adam Conover wrote: > >> The Media? No, that's been around for a LONG time... even when all >the >> media was was a couple of smoke signals, or the Church... > > The Church never really played a role in the transmission of >information. Medieval troubadours were much more important as far as >that >went. If anything, the Church constricted information -- monasteries >didn't exactly open up their records and illuminated manuscripts to >any >random barbarian or Frank who came knocking on their doors... > Read that last sentence again and tell me of the logical inconsistancy there. In fact, you are semi incorrect in a historical perspective. Without the Church storing (remember those pesky barbarians?) and then re-disseminating the lore of the Western World (Ireland played a key point in this), we would all be speaking Arabic. The Church also served as the broadest educator of Europe until probably the Renassiance, as well as establishing the first universities (Notre Dame, Oxford, etc) [why do you think professors wear funny robes :-) ], and keeping learning in a single "dead" language so linguistic difficulties did not shatter the Continent into several cultural backwaters. Passage of letters though the Church was common due to the legal immunity of them as a group. Sorry to sound a bit preachy (this is In Nomine, joke!), but the Church has long been mischaracterized as a bunch of people with nothing better to do then to burn the odd heretic and think of new ways to use hot metal for entertainment purposes. But you are correct that troubadors were great sources of hot gossip! If you want to read some really juicy stuff, read what some churchmen wrote about Empress Theodora of Byzantium. This stuff survives translation... jdye@juno.com The GM god jdye@juno.com The GM god ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 11:00:24 EST From: jdye@juno.com (JOHN C DYE) Subject: Re: The "Balance"? Snip from someone else . In most fantasy settings that have to do >with >>angels/demons, or any sort of "ruling forces" (i.e.: Piers Anthony's >>"Incarnations of Immortality"... great series... reading it will give >you >>some ideas), nothing can actually HAPPEN that will tip the balance. >One >>side might be slightly strong at one point or another, but neither >one will >>actually be able to "win". >>Would it work this way especially in In Nomine? The general idea with >a >>whole "angel/demon" theory is that of Light and Dark, Yin and Yang. >Neither >>one can ever dominate. Am I correct in this? Kestrel wrote: >I've never liked this idea. It's too deus ex machina for me. If >there's a good, >in-story reason for stopping the characters, use it. If there isn't, >the >characters >have probably done some phenominal work and deserve a reward. While, >more than likely, neither Lucifur nor God are going to be overthrown >in >the foreseeable future in IN, the minions aren't going to be as >fortunate. > >Kestrel > >PS: Going by numbers, the angels have already won. Remember that bit >about >getting kicked out of Heaven? I tend to agree with Kestrel. First, by all accounts, the angels outnumber the demons by 2-1. Second, God is the Creator, and the other side are much lesser beings then the Big G. The whole point of the contest is not who is tougher (though demons might try harder). Angels are somewhat circumscribed in what they can do by their nature giving the demons a small but significant edge. The point of the struggle is what is happening to those poor puny mortals who are so easy to tempt and lead astray into things like Satanism, greed, the Democratic Party (Opps). For whatever reason, Big G is allowing the demons free reign here (maybe he is trying to improve the breed :-) and THAT is the nature of the struggle. Not a big deal to the Celestials in terms of who is the big kid on the block, but somewhat a matter of interest to us and the Great Hobbymaster in the sky. As an analogy, think of it like a divorce. There is a winner (usually) and a loser, but now the two are fighting to see who gets the armoir, and the kids always lose (sigh)... Take that analogy as you will. Just $ .02 jdye@juno.com The GM god ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 22:35:23 -0400 From: revonoc@i-2000.com (Adam Conover) Subject: Re: The "Balance"? 's in front of them. :> >Actually, I understood perfectly. It's still deus ex machina. How do you know >the victory of one side over the other will destroy the world? From my POV, >it's more likely that the end of the world would be a side-effect of the war >itself, not the end result. > >As I said, if the players can some up with an exceptionally brilliant plan, >I'll let them win. Ahh... we misunderstood each OTHER. Like I said though... it wouldn't be a deus ex machina... "you can win the battle, but you can't win the war". So, in the example of the short stories "A Bright/Dark Dream", the demons might have one THAT one by getting the painting, or the angels might have established their "tether" (whatever THAT is... can't wait for the 5th! :) ... but that doesn't really affect the BIG picture... In an effort to cram it all into one letter, I'll say something else... that fellow who was talking about how angels outnumber demons 2-1, etc., etc? Here's the question. If angels hate demons so much, and (supposedly, I'm not big on my parents' religion), God hates Lucifer, than why doesn't he just go up and SMASH him? Well, because that would be ruining the whole point. Yin-yang, and all that. Hmm... kinda like matter and antimatter? The Ultimate Answer (42) and the Ultimate Question? Ok, all bad analogies... but you see what I mean. So... in any case, the lower level Celestials (in my POV) would really be looking a lot more short-sightedly... they want to figure out how to advance their own causes, which will in turn advance the causes of their respective sides... not suddenly wipe out the other side... because that would severly unbalance the symphony. :) - --------------------------------------------------------------------- If life is just a game of Dungeons and Dragons, the DM really sucks! ======================================================= | Am I a butterfly dreaming I'm a man? | | Or a bowling ball dreaming I'm a plate of sashami? | | Never assume that what you see and feel is real! | ======================================================= Geek Code: G d? s+: a---- C+++>++++$ U>++ P? L>++ !E? W++>+++$ N+(++) !o? K-? !w--- !O M++ !V? PS(+)? !PE-(--) Y+ !PGP- t+(++) 5- X- R++>+++* tv+ b+++(++)>++++$ DI+++(++)>++++ D---(----) G>+++ e h r- y- revonoc@i-2000.com http://www.i2.i-2000.com/~revonoc/main.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 97 23:34:30 -0600 (CST) From: kestre1@airmail.net (Andrew Getting) Subject: Re: The "Balance"? At 10:35 PM 2/3/97 -0400, Adam Conover wrote: >Ahh... we misunderstood each OTHER. Like I said though... it wouldn't be a >deus ex machina... "you can win the battle, but you can't win the war". So, >in the example of the short stories "A Bright/Dark Dream", the demons might >have one THAT one by getting the painting, or the angels might have >established their "tether" (whatever THAT is... can't wait for the 5th! :) >... but that doesn't really affect the BIG picture... Not directly. It'd take some damned (hyeh) good rolls, RPing, and planning, but the painting in the above story could theoretically tip the balance drastically (i.e. Gabriel wakes up one morning, looks out the window, and gets sucked into a painting of a sunrise). >In an effort to cram it all into one letter, I'll say something else... >that fellow who was talking about how angels outnumber demons 2-1, etc., >etc? Here's the question. If angels hate demons so much, and (supposedly, >I'm not big on my parents' religion), God hates Lucifer, than why doesn't >he just go up and SMASH him? Well, because that would be ruining the whole >point. Yin-yang, and all that. Hmm... kinda like matter and antimatter? The >Ultimate Answer (42) and the Ultimate Question? Ok, all bad analogies... >but you see what I mean. The Angels probably say that Lu is part of the Plan. The Demons say it's because God's alternately sadistic or not powerful enough. >So... in any case, the lower level Celestials (in my POV) would really be >looking a lot more short-sightedly... they want to figure out how to >advance their own causes, which will in turn advance the causes of their >respective sides... not suddenly wipe out the other side... because that >would severly unbalance the symphony. :) Who wants to play lower-levels? ;> Kestrel ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 09:08:47 +0000 From: "J. S. Cardella" Subject: Re: The "Balance"? > >Bright/Dark Dream", the demons might have one THAT one by getting > >the painting, or the angels might have established their "tether" > >(whatever THAT is... can't wait for the 5th! :) .. According to the old rules, a tether was a link to the clelestial world that existed in the Corporeal world. It was a piece of Heaven that existed on earth. Angels could go there to regenerate Essence, among other things. > Who wants to play lower-levels? ;> In the game I just ran at GEMCon, all the PC's did was try to restore the faith of al ittle girl (one of the adventure seeds in the Web posted stuff on Khalid.) It didn't really matter whether they did it or not to the cosmos, but you can bet it mattered to Khalid, the Archangel of Faith! - - Joel ************************************************** "Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog and it's too dark to read." - Groucho Marx ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 97 12:10:31 -0600 (CST) From: kestre1@airmail.net (Andrew Getting) Subject: Poll (was Re: The "Balance"?) At 09:08 AM 2/4/97 +0000, J. S. Cardella wrote: >> Who wants to play lower-levels? ;> >In the game I just ran at GEMCon, all the PC's did was try to restore >the faith of al ittle girl (one of the adventure seeds in the Web >posted stuff on Khalid.) It didn't really matter whether they did it >or not to the cosmos, but you can bet it mattered to Khalid, the >Archangel of Faith! Uh-huh. So how many of us are going to play the angels, anyway? Kestrel ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #11 ******************************