From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Nov 11 17:53:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA29876 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 17:53:22 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id RAA28725 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 17:08:26 -0600 Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 17:08:26 -0600 Message-Id: <199711112308.RAA28725@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #467 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, November 11 1997 Volume 01 : Number 467 In this digest: Re: IN> The honorable Rulius Advocatus, Esq. Re: IN> Anachronistic Words Re: IN> Anachronistic Words IN> rules clarifications Re: IN> Anachronistic Words IN> GM's Guide Re: IN> Anachronistic Words Re: IN> Wording Re: IN> Tartarus.net newsgroups Re: IN> Anachronistic Words IN> Pronouns Re: IN> Anton S. LaVey Re: IN> IN Character Sheet .BMP Re: IN> Pronouns Re: IN> Kyrio Telegraph Re: IN> Anachronistic Words Re: IN> Balsy question Re: IN> Wording Re: IN> Couple of Questions... Re: IN> The honorable Rulius Advocatus, Esq. Re: IN> Pronouns Re: IN> Wording Re: IN> About Shedim Re: IN> Anachronistic Words Re: IN> rules clarifications Re: IN> Kyrio Telegraph Re: IN> Kyrio Telegraph Re: IN> Anachronistic Words IN> The honorable Rulius Advocatus, Esq. Re: IN> Pronouns Re: IN> Wording ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 09:57:01 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> The honorable Rulius Advocatus, Esq. Raoul Duke wrote: > See, this is a beautiful mechanic which encourages creative character > choices (which is why I'm running an OTE game right now), but I can't > see how to integrate it with the some of the bits of IN I like best; > the Symphony and Interventions. Would Essence just be spare bits of > psychic pool? What about the d666? I could see a really good > devils/angels game of OTE happening, but reducing the IN-specific > bits to chrome kinda removes the IN-specific feel. Well, you can always mix and match, and make your own adaptation by blending. As far as I can see, Essence and psi hits and spell points and mana, etc. are all just the same concept under different names and with different rates of exchange. If you wanted to run IN with the old name of "Essence" and the old costs and rites for generation, I don't think this would collide with OTE mechanics at all. There AREN'T many OTE mechanics, after all. (Point of info for non-OTE readers: Tweet even recommends that the "psi-hit pool" be named different things according to the native mythology of the character. Thus and angel or demon would have an "essence pool," a karate master would have a "ki pool," and a mage would have a "mana pool," all in the same game, and all the same thing with different names. Just for the style of the thing.) As for d666, I'd think you could add those, too. It is almost unheard-of for an OTE dice roll to involve more than 5 die, and the usual number is two or three. Get five die in three colors, e.g. two white, two red, one black. Always roll at least three die. If the actual mechanic calls for only one or two, ignore the extra die UNLESS they come up 111 or 666, and then you have your intervention. If the roll calls for four or five die, just pick out three of them to be the intervention indicators. (Another point of info: Although character sheets start out with only three traits and a flaw, as the character develops, old traits can be modified and improved, and new traits can be acquired. I doubt that any game has a short character sheet for an old PC, unless the player has been slack about either roleplaying or record keeping.) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 09:22:29 -0500 From: johnk@lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> Anachronistic Words > If your Word wanes, so does your power... Unless you can stretch the > concept to encompass something bigger/different-but-related... > > For instance, the Demon of Spam never used to be much... Until... > > Meanwhile, the Angel of Horse-drawn Carriages (one of Janus' very > old Ofanim?) is reduced to a shadow of its former self... > > Words can be changed, yes, but generally nobody *does* -- the Word > becomes so much a part of one, that few celestials could conceive > of changing their nature that much! (Furfur was asking for it, > but apparently didn't much believe it would happen; he was just > being obnoxious.) > > So the Seraphim Council generally sadly looks on as an angel > wanes in power and "retires" somewhat, while Lucifer just doesn't > bother caring one way or the other. > > Renegades and Outcasts keep Words. Fallen or Redeemed loses it. Generally. Lucifer might choose to grant the same or a similar Word to a Fallen angel. If Christopher were to fall, for example, this would give Hell a powerful tool for evil. But in essence this is still correct. The original Word would be gone to be quickly replaced by a something not quite the same! Tarnamo Angel of Chariots Malakim of Janus Corp 5 Strength 10 Agility 10 Ethe 3 Intelligence 5 Precision 7 Cel 2 Will 4 Perception 4 Vessel: Human/6 Status/2 (Charisma +1), Horse/4 Songs/Skills: Too lazy to type them up now, but Tarnamo is a fairly old angel so will have a lot of these. Attunements: ditto (includes Animal Magnetism from Jordi) Special Rites: Any time he convinces someone to ride a horse-drawn vehicle for the first time he gets one Essence. Vows: Not allow a domesticated beast of burden to be mistreated, teach 12 people a year to use a horse-drawn vehicle, kill or put out of business 3 cheating merchants Tarnamo has seen better centuries. He's always been a loyal servitor of Janus and saw the combination of horse and machine as the perfect way of supporting that. He carefully pushed development of horse-carts into something a bit quicker and deadlier (he IS a malakite, after all) and enjoyed quite a heydey for a number of centuries. Chariots have their problems, however, and with the fall of the Roman empire and their carefully maintained systems of roads, chariots became less useful for either travel or war. Tarnamo quickly expanded his Word to include all horse-drawn vehicles and was comfortable, if not quite as influential, for quite a long time. Then came the automobile. While the part of him that served Janus (and his own malakite soul) exulted at what these new creations could do, his Word trembled with their amazing spread. He quickly lost much of his influence in a stunningly short time. Nor was he able to expand his Word again. These _horseless_ carriages were just too different. Today he encourages his Word as much as he can. Most of the time in rather primitive areas (usually using non-horses), various horse-drawn coaches... and at the races. Tarnamo _loves_ the buggy races. They remind him of the time of his greatness and they hearken back to the competitive spirit of the original charioteers. What disturbs him is the amount of corruption that can go on behind the scenes. He spends a lot of his time stamping that out while not destroying the gambling altogether (which would end up stopping the whole thing of course). When this gets too tiring, he spends some time with Amish, whom he finds relaxing... he never stays for long, of course. One his main foes is the Demon of Race Fixing who has been around as long as Tarnamo. The demon (whose name Tarnamo has never found out to his frustration) is a bit more powerful than the angel and occupies himself with other sorts of races... but the big money is in the horses, of course. Their paths cross often and only Tarnamo's hard-earned skills lets him keep the edge against the demon's powerful status and Word. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 10:04:53 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Anachronistic Words Jo Hart wrote: > I do like this as an idea. The problem with the allegory is that it > isn't always clear whose word covers what with any precision. This is a problem introduced by the freeform nature of roleplaying. In a play or story, there is a pre-determined plot, which, for an allegory, determines which concepts/characters come into play and in what relationships. I don't have a general guideline for adapting this to RPGs, however you see something similar in superhero comics, where a lot of superheroes sort of personify some force or other. E.g. the Human Torch is kinda a personification of fire, Aquaman of water, the Flash of speed, the Hulk of sheer strength, etc. > I'm sort of confused about what an Angel of Autumn would really need > to do to promote its word, given that Autumn will happen anyway. In the article, the Angel and its servitors got additional essence for things like autumn weather coming early or lingering late, or per number of fields harvested and such like. Of course, that put it in direct competition with the Angels of Summer and Winter. No, they didn't bring up the perfectly valid point of the seasons in the two hemispheres. Personally, I would play something like that more in the vein of Terry Pratchett, who described the inhospitable Ramtop Mountains of the Discworld as "one of those places where winters go to spend the summer." Pratchett, by the way, has LOTS of fun with allegory and personification, especially, of course, with Death. Looking forward to GURPS Discworld, Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 11:14:56 -0500 From: "bruce dykes" Subject: IN> rules clarifications Just two quick rules clarifiers here if you please... 1) Since superiors can impose dissonance penalties, it occurs to me that they should be able to impose more extreme and severe penalties (say a multiple or an additive) for the duration of an extremely sensitive operation, or for servitors who've pestered them about Discord too many times...am I right? 2) In Heaven and Hell, Dominic's Warder distinction allows one or more Warders to use their Wills to root a prisoner to one spot as long as the Warder is present...if several Warders combine their Wills to contain a high-willed pisoner, do all the Warders have to remain present to continue the effect, or can one or two wander off and leave one behind? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 10:12:18 -0600 From: "Micah T.J. Jackson" Subject: Re: IN> Anachronistic Words >To take a Word, knowing it to be temporary -- "I am the Angel of >World War Two" -- would be a very gutsy thing to do, or a very >harsh thing to have forced on you. Well, don't forget, that the one of the tasks of a word-bound celestial is to make sure that the concept of the word is continued. As long as there are people who study WWII in history class, or there are revisionists who claim that the Holocaust never happened, the Angel of WWII will be very important (though certainly not as powerful as when WWII was actually going on.) <--Micah. __________ __________ Micah T.J. Jackson micahj@io.com __________ __________ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 12:01:08 -0500 From: Jesse Rooney Subject: IN> GM's Guide >Attention SJG: Player's guides are great, but I don't think I'm alone in >wanting a GM's guide that gives guidelines for Wording, Archangel creation, >and Rite, Song and Attunement creation... Heck folks at SJG, I'll volunteer to write the book! - -Jesse, freelance writer-for-hire ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 12:13:45 -0500 From: Jesse Rooney Subject: Re: IN> Anachronistic Words >> For instance, the Demon of Spam never used to be much... Until... So who does the Demon of Spam work with? His Superior must be the Demon of Canned Meats and his asstant the Demon of Devilled Ham (not cause his Word is powerful but because it is a -cool- word for Demons). Secound, the Angel of Horse-Drawen Charoits is alive and well in Pennslyvannia Dutch Country. - -Jesse ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 09:04:21 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Knop Subject: Re: IN> Wording > Trust me, this is being discussed even now. What you will > _never_ see is how to become an AA/DP, though. Uh-uh, no way. > It might make an interesting climax to a campaign, but then people > will want rules on how to _be_ an AA/DP and that is faaaaar out of > the scope of the game! If that happens, it sounds like it's time to retire the character to NPChood and start out with a new, fresh one.... - -Rob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 11:19:09 -0600 (CST) From: Dorothy Bixler Subject: Re: IN> Tartarus.net newsgroups On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, GR Cogman wrote: > Blame for this lies somewhere between the Bixlers, Archangel Beth (or > perhaps KK), Mark Allen, and myself. And I refuse to answer to the Game as > to whom I was channeling. > Forgot one... > --- > > vap.alt... > (snip!) > vap.alt.sex.vapula.definitely.archangel > Although for the really brave it's vap.alt.sex.vapula.ZAP.ZAP.ZAP > *Dorothy Michelle Bixler * mudmh10@ecom.ecn.bgu.edu* "Gidget, have you been laying with the Horned One again?" -MST3K's Mike from "The Thing the Couldn't Die" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 12:07:07 -0500 (EST) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Anachronistic Words On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > For instance, the Demon of Spam never used to be much... Until... Obviously a sevitor of Kobal. Only he would appreciate the irony of a demon wordbound to processed meat byproducts. Kobal: Hey, bro, mind if one of my demons gets the word 'Spam'? Haagenti: Spam? Bleach. Even -I- won't eat that. Sure, go for it. *BUUURP* Of course, like all Kobal's minions, the Demon of Spam has a sick sense of humor, and inspired the Monty Python song of the same name...things became very messy from there. > Meanwhile, the Angel of Horse-drawn Carriages (one of Janus' very > old Ofanim?) is reduced to a shadow of its former self... Only if it wants to be. All it has to do is apply for a broadening of its word to encompass 'Horsepower' as well. - -- Casca (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 09:10:52 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Knop Subject: IN> Pronouns Apologies if this is redundant. What is the appropriate pronoun for a demon or an angel? I've noticed a lot of people using "it" lately, e.g. in the excellent "Trial" adventure seed just posted by Joanna Hart. Here's my theory: if the angel or demon tends to think of himself as being more masculine or feminine, then use "he" or "she." If the angel or demon is in a vessel, use the pronoun corresponding to the gender of the pronoun. (This means I would have used "he" for the Habbalite in the Trial.) Of course, things can get a touch confusing if a celestial has multiple vessels of different genders, but presumably they are used to this sort of thing. If the celestial, however, is in celestial form, and doesn't consider itself to be either more masculine or more femenine (and seems to have no preference when it comes to vessels), then use "it". (Kyrios and Shedim probably always have to be called "it".) Thoughts? - -Rob === Rob Knop === rknop@crl.com ==== http://www.wco.com/~rknop === Amiga PGP information at http://www.wco.com/~rknop/amiga_pgp Visit the Dramatic Exchange at http://www.dramex.org/ ================================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 11:27:33 -0600 (CST) From: Dorothy Bixler Subject: Re: IN> Anton S. LaVey On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, bruce dykes wrote: > Apparently (according to the Daily Show anyway), Anton LaVey has passed on > to his infernal reward. > Yep. October 28, due to fluid build-up in the lungs (he had a long history of heart problems and a notorious distrust of doctors). I believe there have been several rumors such as his death certificate has been changed to October 31 and that his daughter put a curse on him (both of which have been stated as false by the Church of Satan on-line rep). Other than that, he was cremated (IIRC) after a private satanic funeral. *Dorothy Michelle Bixler * mudmh10@ecom.ecn.bgu.edu* "Gidget, have you been laying with the Horned One again?" -MST3K's Mike from "The Thing the Couldn't Die" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 14:11:56 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> IN Character Sheet .BMP At 8:33 PM -0500 11/10/97, Pee Kitty wrote: >It's a 640x480 B&W Windows BitMap (.BMP) file, only 38K. It prints out >very nice at 8.5"x11". Anyone interested in a copy? I suppose I could just >stick it on my web site, but if there was a lot of interest I could post >it to the list with the Archangel of I-N-List's blessing... Web-site *ONLY*! Do *NOT* post non-ascii files to this list!!! I'll be happy to put it on the INC, or put a link there to your pages, but *NOT* on the list! (Among other reasons, it's no good to *me* -- I don't use Vapusoft Windows.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 14:11:16 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Pronouns I used "it" of an Elohite I recently described because they are specifically described as androgynous or neuter, and, though the spirit was in a male vessel, it/he was new to Earth. I would generally describe Kyriotates and Sheddim as "it" because of their lack of bodies. Lilim are "she" be default, but that just illustrates the general principle I'd use of matching pronoun to sex of vessel. However, I would be inclined to use "it" if I were emphasizing the unhuman or incorporeal aspect of a celestial. By the way, in old usage, while angels and demons are usually referred to as "he," a generic human soul, considered apart from the body and with no regard to Earthly identity, is usually "she." I think this is because of the genders of the words in various ancient languages. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 13:39:46 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Kyrio Telegraph > The Kyrio telegraph is a cute idea. As for the problem of talking > with a pigeon -- how about using a crow instead? Crows, ravens, > magpies, and most other members of the Corvidae can talk. Okay - one question, then - how many forces does a crow/raven have? This would work great for my character... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 14:37:41 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Anachronistic Words At 6:34 PM -0600 11/10/97, Redneck Gaijin wrote: >>Renegades and Outcasts keep Words. Fallen or Redeemed loses it. > >Um, isn't it also possible for angels and demons to be stripped of their >Words as well? I know of at least one canonical example of the latter in >Night Music... Yes, of course. But again, it's not common -- and since Renegades and Outcasts keep their Words, obviously requires the personal intervention of Lucifer/the Seraphim Council (depending on the nature of the celestial), just as it required that intervention to give the celestial the Word in the first place. (Night Music? There's one in H&H...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 14:36:19 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Balsy question At 7:31 PM -0500 11/10/97, Pee Kitty wrote: >On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> >This doesn't appear to be covered anywhere. The mechanics for all the >> >other demons seem to suggest that a failed Resonance roll is treated as a >> >successful resistance roll, but is that right? If the Balsy fails with a >> >CD of 4, is the victim automatically immune to 'em for 4 hours? Does a CD >> >of 6 generate dissonance? >> >> I would say Sure, Yes, and No. > >That's exactly how I've been running it, but I'm hoping Karakash can set >my mind at ease on how close to canon I'm coming.... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 13:19:07 -0600 (CST) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Wording >> Trust me, this is being discussed even now. What you will >> _never_ see is how to become an AA/DP, though. Uh-uh, no way. >> It might make an interesting climax to a campaign, but then people >> will want rules on how to _be_ an AA/DP and that is faaaaar out of >> the scope of the game! > >If that happens, it sounds like it's time to retire the character to >NPChood and start out with a new, fresh one.... > Yeah, but isn't this what was -supposed- to happen after about Level 15 in the old D&D? }:-{D Redneck (if you write it, they will be munchkins) Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Do not taunt Happy Fun Belial. http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | * * * c/o White Lightning Productions | "I love the sweet smell of http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | humiliation in the morning!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Kobal reaffirms himself http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 14:45:32 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Couple of Questions... At 3:18 PM +1100 11/11/97, Patrick O'Duffy wrote: >1. What's the duration of Zadkiel's Aura of Divinity? I'll ask... I'm going to propose that it lasts until the angel leaves the initial area, though... >2. Both of Zadkiel's Servitor Attunement's refer to the check digit. >What's the target number? The Angel's resonance? I thought Attunements >didn't require a d666 roll. They don't, usually -- just roll the check digit. > Now for the tricky question. Yup. > Okay, so Yves is the Destiny of God and Kronos is God's Fate. Cool, >nice idea. Does that mean that celestials have fates and destinies? I >had thought they didn't - previously it was stated that only humans have >destinies/fates. We have been playing that celestials have f/d. Their Fate is to be demonic, and their destiny to be angelic. If using Fated Future/Divine Destiny on a celestial, it is generally couched in those very vague terms -- Demonic/Angelic. (Usually with no real sense of *which* is currently in effect!) If they have the potential to be Word-Bound or become a Superior, that may show up too. > If only humans have d/f, then what happens if you use the Fated >Future/Dark Destiny attunements on someone who isn't human (like a >celestial in a vessel)? Do you get a result, or a null reading? Either >way, won't it handily give away whether the target is a celestial? > Both those attunements are cheap and easy to use, They cost 10 points at character creation (and 10 points and/or your Superior's permission after), and cost Essence -- which a celestial will likely sense being used if you're close enough. >and give the >Servitors of Yves and Kronos a massive edge in the War if they can >reveal another's celestial nature. Seraphim of Destiny are already tricky, if you have a funky name... Yes, they have an edge. So do Servitors of the Game, who can recognize various Bands... Seen the list of ways to spot celestials yet? It's on the INC... I'll have to add FF/DD to the list, though. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 14:50:00 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> The honorable Rulius Advocatus, Esq. At 5:39 AM +0000 11/11/97, Jo Hart wrote: >From: Elizabeth McCoy > >>And if you don't want to use dice... Don't. The Archive Malakim don't >>go looking for people using house rules... > >Habbalahs of The Game are another matter. >jo >(They have failed to play by the rules and now they must SUFFER!) You're thinking of the Habbalite of Line Editing who was creeping around a while back... - --Beth, Demon Princess of Line Editing (a rough translation; other translations include "Nitpicking" and "Rules Nazi-ism") ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 15:17:56 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Pronouns At 9:10 AM -0800 11/11/97, Robert Knop wrote: >Apologies if this is redundant. > >What is the appropriate pronoun for a demon or an angel? I've noticed a >lot of people using "it" lately, e.g. in the excellent "Trial" adventure >seed just posted by Joanna Hart. I'd say use whatever you want. Celestials have no fixed gender, and may think of themselves as either, both, or neither. Lilim tend to think of themselves as female. Elohim tend to think of themselves as neuter. Kyrios often consider themselves everything... When in doubt, "it" is usually most descriptive... (But generally, you can use the gender of the vessel -- though some celestials pick androgynous vessels, so you can't tell easily.) (I've got a character in a PBEM who has a female vessel, but is a bit closer to an "it" celestially. Hasn't had the vessel long enough to acquire much gender identity.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 15:12:48 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Wording At 9:04 AM -0800 11/11/97, Robert Knop wrote: >> Trust me, this is being discussed even now. What you will >> _never_ see is how to become an AA/DP, though. Uh-uh, no way. >> It might make an interesting climax to a campaign, but then people >> will want rules on how to _be_ an AA/DP and that is faaaaar out of >> the scope of the game! > >If that happens, it sounds like it's time to retire the character to >NPChood and start out with a new, fresh one.... Either that, or accept that you'll need to pick out diceless rules and play politics. (The Amber Diceless RPG might do well for people who want to play low-ranking Superiors...) Which can be amusing on its own -- note the idea that someone had for a PBEM/RL game -- the PBEM part is the Superiors, giving orders and suggesting plots to the RL Servitors... But it's not going to be anything with rules. No "it has hit points, so we can kill it" stuff for IN. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 14:59:49 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> About Shedim At 3:33 AM -0500 11/11/97, Michael C. Nutt wrote: >>With a resonance roll at a minus to the target number, Kyrios can >>indeed get memories, similar to the automatic Kyrio of Destiny >>attunement. Unless that changes from my draft copy of the APG to >>the actual printed version. > >say here...> > >ArchBeth, I love ya dearly, but it's *surely* not fair to be arguing based >on your draft copies of material that hasn't made it into the stores yet! I'm not arguing. I'm stating CANON. I *AM* the frotzing Line Editor. I'm giving you a preview of the material in the book. You should be nice to me about that. (And this is material that got put into the book *before* I was LE, so I'm not entirely happy with it myself. You'll probably see my hand (or at least cleat-prints) more in the IPG.) >Shedites are *not* Kyriotates. Just because a resonance works one way for an >angel doesn't necessarily mean it should work the same way for a demon. >Kyrios get to transfer instantly because they understand how to be in two >places at once, where Shedites *don't*. Okay, let me explain the meta stuff here... We don't want to hose either side. Angels and demons should be roughly equivalent in power, if they have the same number of Forces. If angels get coolstuff, then demons should get equivalent coolstuff (though of course not the *same* coolstuff). If a Kyrio can be as annoying as a Kyrio can, then a Shedite (the body-swapper on the demonic side) should *not* be handicapped by having to make a 7+ disturbance every time he switches bodies -- this is a *game mechanics* thing, to make sure that Shedim aren't being discriminated against as potential PCs. Now, we could say that Sheddies *are* different from Kyrios and *do* have to go celestial to possess someone. It's even implied that that was in somebody's mind when they wrote the text. But upon further consideration, it seems unnecessarily harsh on the poor things. >>Yes. It implies strongly that they must go celestial. However, >>it doesn't say he *MUST*. As I said, though, it's still in flux. >>When you read it in the IPG (Infernal Player's Guide), then it >>will no longer be in flux. > >I don't see that as a simple implication. It is. Trust me. *Trust* me. If it doesn't say it explicitly, then it's only implied. Very, very strongly. But. >entering another. Does there seem to be a consensus among the Powers-That-Be >that we need to add *more* complexity here? It seems like a *real* stretch >to me to allow instant transfers. Actually, it's *LESS* complexity! Instead of making that gods-awful disturbance all the time (and having to roll for people hearing that, people seeing the Sheddie, etc.), they can relinquish one host as they transfer to another, even as a Kyrio will when going from 9 1-Force rats into a 5-Force human. Less die-rolling. Less die-rolling is good. Errata is bad, but it's a clarification, not an outright contradiction. Quite. (And it may yet change; don't get your garters in a knot till you read it in the IPG.) >>And if it is, I loose the Calabim of Line Editing on the culprit. > > Decided that threats about "getting out the bullwhips and the >leather" just weren't getting the job done, eh? I haven't done that to the authors yet. Yet. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 15:15:14 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Anachronistic Words At 12:07 PM -0500 11/11/97, Casca wrote: >On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> For instance, the Demon of Spam never used to be much... Until... [...] >Of course, like all Kobal's minions, the Demon of Spam has a sick sense >of humor, and inspired the Monty Python song of the same name...things >became very messy from there. It was a very clever move to get linked to Usenet advertisements, though! >> Meanwhile, the Angel of Horse-drawn Carriages (one of Janus' very >> old Ofanim?) is reduced to a shadow of its former self... > >Only if it wants to be. All it has to do is apply for a broadening of its >word to encompass 'Horsepower' as well. If it can -- and it may not be able to, if it really *is* Horse-Drawn Carriages. If it were the Angel of Carriages, it would have a better chance. More likely it will fade, as the Old Guy did, and one of Jean's Ofanim will take up being Angel of Fast Vehicles. Aka the Angel of Speeding Tickets... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 15:10:38 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> rules clarifications At 11:14 AM -0500 11/11/97, bruce dykes wrote: >Just two quick rules clarifiers here if you please... > >1) Since superiors can impose dissonance penalties, it occurs to me that >they should be able to impose more extreme and severe penalties (say a >multiple or an additive) for the duration of an extremely sensitive >operation, or for servitors who've pestered them about Discord too many >times...am I right? Yup. Tick off a Superior -- *especially* your own Superior! -- and you may get more dissonance, amusing Discords picked out just for you, Force-stripped, stripped of Attunements or Distinctions, or anything else the GM thinks is appropriate. (Note the description for Novalis...) >2) In Heaven and Hell, Dominic's Warder distinction allows one or more >Warders to use their Wills to root a prisoner to one spot as long as the >Warder is present...if several Warders combine their Wills to contain a >high-willed pisoner, do all the Warders have to remain present to continue >the effect, or can one or two wander off and leave one behind? They all have to stick around. If any wander off (or are killed, or otherwise distracted with, say, combat...), then the prisoner can try to break free again. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 15:31:08 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Kyrio Telegraph Nathaniel Eliot wrote: > Okay - one question, then - how many forces does a crow/raven have? > This would work great for my character... As many as the pigeon had, I would think. Crows and ravens are a lot smarter than pigeons, but probably not enough to show up at the coarse granularity of IN mechanics. If you like, you could give them one more point on intelligence. Failing that, you probably will be pretty safe if you use the stats for a cat, listed in the IN book. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 15:49:44 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Kyrio Telegraph At 1:39 PM +0000 11/11/97, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: >> The Kyrio telegraph is a cute idea. As for the problem of talking >> with a pigeon -- how about using a crow instead? Crows, ravens, >> magpies, and most other members of the Corvidae can talk. > >Okay - one question, then - how many forces does a crow/raven have? >This would work great for my character... 1-2 Forces, probably... Ask the GM. But don't bring any of those dirty things into the bar. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 15:06:37 -0600 (CST) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Anachronistic Words >At 6:34 PM -0600 11/10/97, Redneck Gaijin wrote: >>>Renegades and Outcasts keep Words. Fallen or Redeemed loses it. >> >>Um, isn't it also possible for angels and demons to be stripped of their >>Words as well? I know of at least one canonical example of the latter in >>Night Music... > >(Night Music? There's one in H&H...) > Remember everyone's cayenne friend, the Once and Future Demon of Hot Sauce? }:-{D Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Do not taunt Happy Fun Belial. http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | * * * c/o White Lightning Productions | "I love the sweet smell of http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | humiliation in the morning!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Kobal reaffirms himself http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 16:41:38 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> The honorable Rulius Advocatus, Esq. >>>We _did_ use numbers and levels. We _are_ going to roll dice. Sometimes. But nowhere NEAR as many times as the rules indicate! Do they seriously expect me as GM to roll numerous times for every celestial in a few miles' radius everytime someone pushes some essence??<<< No. The rules are there for GMs who want to know how to determine a random chance for such things. Nowhere in the rulebook does it say "You cannot decide for yourself whether or not another celestial hears a disturbance, based on the needs of the story." >>>Does anyone seriously expect me to let a die roll determine whether Asmodeus will see his impetuous demons the minute they want to?<<< No one *expects* you to do any such thing. No one *expects* you to let a die roll determine whether or not someone's attunement works -- you can make that an arbitrary GM decision too, and certainly no one at Steve Jackson Games will tell you "Hand in your In Nomine book, you heretic!" Rules are there because, believe it or not, Ijon, some GMs *like* having rules detailing such things for them. Experienced GMs can and will ignore the rules at will, but as an experienced GM, even I like to have rules there to fall back on for those situations where I just don't have a good idea how to determine something, and would like something a little more precise that flipping a coin. >>>My point: In Nomine, in my humble opinion, calls for too many die rolls, involves too many modifier tables to be looked up, and is generally somewhat overladen with mechanics that, again - to me (and my players) - hamper gameplay rather than help. I do not preach complete diceless In Nomine, nor a stat-less In Nomine. I do preach to ignoring a healthy bit of the rules and numbers, and employing a Dramatic System instead of a Mechanical System. Let the GM determine action results that would best advance the storyline. Don't let characters live or die by die rolls. Let 'em die because of their mistakes!<<< This is not some radical new idea, Ijon. Every experienced GM improvises with the rules, I believe, and does not let die rolls overwhelm the story. (In fact, that would be one of my definitions of "experienced GM".) So I'm really not sure what your complaint is. You think there are too many rules and too many tables in In Nomine? That's a matter of personal taste. There are games which have a lot more rules than In Nomine, and games which have much fewer. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 16:50:08 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Pronouns ... And then, a truly eccentric servitor of Jordi might take a microscopic vessel, for some reason or another. Some micro-organisms have seven or nine sexes. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 16:16:27 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Wording Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > But it's not going to be anything with rules. No "it has hit > points, so we can kill it" stuff for IN. Reminds me of the "Mythic Egypt" book I wrote for Iron Crown. I had to give stats and spell lists for the Egyptian gods. In the synthesis I made up, Ptah was the demiurge, creator of the world and all the other gods. On the stat table, in his column, it read, "Forget it!" Earl ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #467 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.