From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Nov 21 16:33:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA15667 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:33:13 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id QAA14365 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:21:05 -0600 Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:21:05 -0600 Message-Id: <199711212221.QAA14365@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #481 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, November 21 1997 Volume 01 : Number 481 In this digest: Re: IN> A burning question Re: IN> Strange Question Re: IN> Strange Question Re: IN> Strange Question Re: IN> Strange Question Re: IN> Strange Question Re: IN> What choir was Uriel? Re: IN> Strange Question Re: IN> Michael, this is your life... Re: IN> An angel, a vignette, and two adventure seeds IN> The Battle of Persia Re: IN> The Battle of Persia Re: IN> Strange Question [none] Re: IN> Strange Question IN> Re: IN> Re: Re: IN> Strange Question IN> Re: your mail RE: IN> Angelaki Re: IN> In Nomine Questions Re: IN> Seed: Socks and Violence Re: IN> Strange Question IN> Seed : Theorem for Trouble Re: IN> Angelaki Re: IN> Seed : Theorem for Trouble IN> Seed : The Appliance of Science Re: IN> Angelaki Re: IN> Michael, this is your life... Re: IN> Strange Question IN> Celestial genders RE: IN> Angelaki IN> Re: Re: IN> Superior's Hearts Re: IN> Re: IN> Re: IN- Seed : Theorem for Trouble IN> Angels and Souls (was Angelaki) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 23:53:35 -0500 (EST) From: TBretz@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> A burning question In a message dated 97-11-20 02:29:36 EST, you write: << Terry Pratchet and > Neil Gaiman described the Metatron as "The Voice of God" in "Good > Omens", and I think this would work very well. >> Actually, I rather liked the way Gaiman used the Metatron in "Season of Mists", pt 6. Remiel: "I have a message for you" Dream: "Very well, Remiel, what is it?" Remiel: "I do not know. Wait." (Remiel's eyes light up, then he seems to explode in a nimbus of light and go limp for a moment. Then, with a blank expression, he speaks) "We...I will relay the message, it is from my creator. OK, maybe it isn't the Metatron, but the idea of a force that can possess an angel in order to convey a message seems to fit the somewhat sledgehammer approach used by many of the elder Archangels. theron houston ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 22:02:10 -0700 (MST) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question > 1) One angel creates a child, sacrificing forces and essence to do so. If > other angels want to get involved, have at it, but the child is still that of > the angel who sacrificed the forces/essence. That makes Lilith's ability to create the Lilim sort of humdrum, doesn't it? > 2) There is a spire in the center of Heaven. Now and again, a young angel Oooh, how...phallic. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 00:15:16 -0500 (EST) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, Kingsley Lintz wrote: > > 2) There is a spire in the center of Heaven. Now and again, a young angel > Oooh, how...phallic. Oh, don't be phacecious. ;) - -- Casca (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 00:25:28 -0500 From: Jesse Rooney Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question At 12:15 AM 11/21/97 -0500, you wrote: >On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, Kingsley Lintz wrote: > >> > 2) There is a spire in the center of Heaven. Now and again, a young angel >> Oooh, how...phallic. > >Oh, don't be phacecious. ;) > Wild Baby! Wild! - -Jesse ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 08:36:12 -0500 From: johnk@lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question > Two doesn't decide where demons come from, but it's not implausible to suggest > that Lucifer's come up with a way to turn the damned into demons. They're > stupid and even more selfish than most demons, and quite often not nearly as > powerful. As most of the books say, however, Lucifer chose quantity over > quality. Celestial reproduction (both demonic and angelic) is going to involve contribution of forces to the newborn. Several celestials can contribute and there's usually a Superior involved (unapproved procreation is a no-no). Even Lucifer, though, cannot turn a human soul into demonic soul as far as we know. He has taken an essential demonic (celestial) soul and bolstered it with Forces stripped from humans, OTOH. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 08:38:19 -0500 From: johnk@lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question On Nov 20, 10:02pm, Kingsley Lintz wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question > > > 1) One angel creates a child, sacrificing forces and essence to do so. If > > other angels want to get involved, have at it, but the child is still that of > > the angel who sacrificed the forces/essence. > That makes Lilith's ability to create the Lilim sort of humdrum, > doesn't it? Canon alert!: ONLY Lilith can create Lilim. No matter how any of her children (or the other DPs) try, they only can produce other sorts of demons. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:02:13 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> What choir was Uriel? > >I thought that choirs/bands were something that you *were*, not something > >you *become*. Perhaps Malakim are an exception to that? > > At the Fall, yes. Malakim did not exist before the Fall. They > originated from (as?) those angels who (to paraquote something Derek > said) "Raised their fists in the air and found they had become > something different." Uriel was the first. (David not far behind.) > > In these days, Malakim are created normally, and nobody swaps > Choir once they've fledged. More evidence that Malakim are really demons. :) - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 09:21:22 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question The Saint of Killers wrote: > ...I'm one of the few people out there, it seems, who finds > the whole concept of angels getting married and having babies to be > pretty dumb. Well, you have an excellent Authority to back you up: "For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven." -- Matthew 22:30 Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 09:39:34 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Michael, this is your life... For an additional date, somewhere around 550 BC, Michael was involved supporting Gabriel in some conflict involving the "princes" of Persia and Greece, presumably demons or Demon Princes of some sort. See Daniel 10-11: "Then [Gabriel] continued, "Do not be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day that you set your mind to gain understanding and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to them. But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia." -- Daniel 10:10-13 "So he said, "Do you know why I have come to you? Soon I will return to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I go, the prince of Greece will come; but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth. (No one supports me against them except Michael, your prince. And in the first year of Darius the Mede, I took my stand to support and protect him.)" -- Daniel 10:20-11:1 So it sounds like Gabriel was captured by a major demon, the Prince of Persia, then freed by Michael, as part of a longer conflict in which Gabriel and Michael are alone against some infernal faction. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 07:52:33 -0800 From: Tony Zbaraschuk Subject: Re: IN> An angel, a vignette, and two adventure seeds >[Angel of Casualties, plus adventure seeds] Y'know -- I _really, really_ like this. Very imaginative, and a lot of interesting moral issues. Keep 'em coming! Tony Z Special Collections Librarian & Archivist E-mail: tzbarasc@lasierra.edu La Sierra University Et vocavit Deus, "Fiat lux!" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:19:28 -0200 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: IN> The Battle of Persia Earl Wajenberg wrote: > So it sounds like Gabriel was captured by a major demon, the Prince of > Persia, then freed by Michael, as part of a longer conflict in which > Gabriel and Michael are alone against some infernal faction. Wow, that's cool!! Anyone wanna make a writeup on that?? Andre, D.P., just wishing he had more time to write...):-9 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:30:06 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> The Battle of Persia Andre Ribeiro wrote: > > Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > > So it sounds like Gabriel was captured by a major demon, the Prince of > > Persia, then freed by Michael, as part of a longer conflict in which > > Gabriel and Michael are alone against some infernal faction. > > Wow, that's cool!! Anyone wanna make a writeup on that?? To supply a bit more context, the vision was delivered when the Jews were exiled from Israel, under the Babylonians. The Babylonians were soon to be defeated by the Persians, who would allow the Jews to return home -- though they were not independent and had simply exchanged membership in the Babylonian empire for membership in the Persian empire. (Nonetheless, it was an excellent exchange for the Jews.) In time, the Persian empire would fall to Alexander the Great, and the Jews would be ruled by one of the Greek dynasties that divvied up the Mid-East after Alexander's death. This dynasty, the Selucids I think it was, were almost worse than the Babylonians; they didn't exile the Jews, but they tried to abolish Jewish religion and culture and substitute Greek. There was a bloody revolt, led by Judas Maccabeus [sp?]. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:30:55 -0500 From: Jesse Rooney Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question > Celestial reproduction (both demonic and angelic) is going >to involve contribution of forces to the newborn. Several celestials >can contribute and there's usually a Superior involved (unapproved >procreation is a no-no). Even Lucifer, though, cannot turn a >human soul into demonic soul as far as we know. He has taken an >essential demonic (celestial) soul and bolstered it with Forces >stripped from humans, OTOH. Aack! Celestial birth control! Laurence and Dominic and the Catholic Church would not be pleased! Course maybe if Angels have not drive to reproduce it would be a lot easier to avoid. Do Celestial have a sex drive as it were? - -Jesse Ofanite of Tequlia ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:35:52 -0500 From: Jesse Rooney Subject: [none] Question- Why is Gaberial described as female? My reading of the Bible and the Koran is that Gabby was male. I am just chauvinist or did Derek and CROC send Gabby to a clinic in Europe? - -Curious Jesse ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:57:28 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question Jesse Rooney wrote: > Do Celestial have a sex drive as it were? According to the book, they can enjoy it but are not usually preoccupied by it. I interpret this as: it is a pleasure for them but not a need. It also isn't clear to me that sex and reproduction are linked for celestials. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:54:24 -0500 From: John J Maurer Subject: IN> Re: At 11:35 AM 11/21/97 -0500, Jesse Rooney wrote: >Question- >Why is Gaberial described as female? My reading of the Bible and the Koran >is that Gabby was male. I am just chauvinist or did Derek and CROC send >Gabby to a clinic in Europe? Angels are genderless. They may appear as either male or female. Kyriotes may appear as both at once. No clinic is involved. At the time the Bible and Koran were written, anyone important had to be male. I am curious though what version you read that gives any sort of pronoun for Gabriel. Speaks The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views... which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering. -Doctor Who, Face of Evil ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:58:48 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> Re: Jesse Rooney wrote: > Why is Gaberial described as female? Celestials have no real gender. Gabriel, according to the book, has been appearing as female for the last few centuries, no reason given. Dominic/Dominique is even more indifferent to the sex of its corporeal vessels and uses both about equally. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 12:20:50 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question > >Has anyone conceived of anything which would constitute a sort of > >"Celestial Marriage Vows?" I'm more interested in some sort of temporary > >swearing between two Infernals (I promise not to kill you for your coveted > >M&Ms for this year, my dear) then between two Divines, but the question is > >pretty much the same. > > Well, with Lilim, you swap Geasa -- "For [duration] I swear I shall > not betray thee." Or something like. That would work for Lilim, of course... > > I've been assuming that a Lilim can put a full-blown Geas on any > *willing* subject ("Yes, you're right, I owe you." wrap around the person> he's an honest one, though>), so you could have "vows" performed in > front of a Lilim... > > Wow. Lilim as wedding ceremony types. What a concept... Okay. Actually, that answers my question nicely. Thanks. I just need to build it into my game now, somehow. It would be just another service provided by the Free Lilim at the Guildhall for X amount of Geases. Since it would be fairly rare, and available only in Shal-Mari, it would be an expensive process only available to the upper echelon of Demonic Society, and only last the length of time equal to the amount of geases purchased. (A set of 6's, plus the fee for the Lilim / Geas.) At that point, it's more of a backstabbing, policial nastiness then outright kill your neighbor anyway. > > >I was just working on timelines for my NPCs, and I realized, hey, this > >would be handy dandy knowledge to have. > > Uh-oh.... *cackle* Emily K. Dresner, M.S.Eng. Applications Programmer III and Balseraph of the Game Desktop Applications Team - Medical Center Information Technology Current Quote: It's all just a bunch of tree hugging hippy crap. - Cartman from South Park ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 09:14:09 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Knop Subject: IN> Re: your mail > Why is Gaberial described as female? My reading of the Bible and the Koran > is that Gabby was male. I am just chauvinist or did Derek and CROC send > Gabby to a clinic in Europe? According to the main IN book, Gabby has used vessels of both genders, but in recent years has preferred a female manifestation. Me, I figure that's all part of being insane :) (Ducking.) - -Rob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 18:29:40 +0100 From: "cd skogsberg" Subject: RE: IN> Angelaki Perry M. Lloyd wrote: [Elided] > >Soylent Angel... > > Soylent Angel is people! It's made of people! Ahhhhhh!!!! Nah... It's made of angels. Not people. We all know angels don't have souls... cd - -- "And it has come to pass that the Lord of the Woods, being ... Seven and nine, down the onyx steps ... (tri)butes to Him in the Gulf, Aza- thoth, He of Whom Thou hast taught us marv(els ..." - H. P. Lovecraft, _The Whisperer in Darkness_ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 18:29:39 +0100 From: "cd skogsberg" Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Questions Donald G Bixler wrote: [Loki & Thor] > The Norse gods fight among > themselves, but that always seems to take a back seat when something > else menaces one of them. (Just ask Thrym, for example.) Or ask Loki about *his* part in...distracting Thrym. *snicker* cd - -- "And it has come to pass that the Lord of the Woods, being ... Seven and nine, down the onyx steps ... (tri)butes to Him in the Gulf, Aza- thoth, He of Whom Thou hast taught us marv(els ..." - H. P. Lovecraft, _The Whisperer in Darkness_ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 18:29:40 +0100 From: "cd skogsberg" Subject: Re: IN> Seed: Socks and Violence Emily Dresner wrote: > That's it. No more sugar or caffeine for you. You are officially > CUT OFF. *waggle finger* NO SUGAR? NO CAFFEINE? HOW CAN How can anyone live without sugar and caffeine? I, for one, am on my third mug (biig mug) of tea for the morning (when I write this), each a supersaturated sugar suspension (wow, alliteration!) and I'll be digging into the Jolt when I get to school. I probably won't drink 12 cans in 7 hours again, though. And a few cups of tea. And 2 100 mg. caffeine pills. > And why do poor Kobalites always get the short end of the stick? :) Because it's better than the long end? cd My mind is buzzing with sugar and caffeine, and I've got a cool .sig quote... "If you want Nirvanimetric bliss/Chrono-Omnitemporalysis Help me break my amniotic shell/Damn this blasted bifid barb of Hell Shake the paw of Mighty Metraton/Cutting corners to oblivion" - The Darkest of the Hillside Thickets, _Six Gun Gorgon Dynamo_ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 13:04:26 -0500 From: johnk@lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question On Nov 21, 11:30am, Jesse Rooney wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question > > Celestial reproduction (both demonic and angelic) is going > >to involve contribution of forces to the newborn. Several celestials > >can contribute and there's usually a Superior involved (unapproved > >procreation is a no-no). Even Lucifer, though, cannot turn a > >human soul into demonic soul as far as we know. He has taken an > >essential demonic (celestial) soul and bolstered it with Forces > >stripped from humans, OTOH. > Aack! Celestial birth control! Laurence and Dominic and the Catholic > Church would not be pleased! Course maybe if Angels have not drive to > reproduce it would be a lot easier to avoid. Do Celestial have a sex drive > as it were? There is no 'sex drive' in celestials. There may be a desire to reproduce, but it isn't imposed on them by their genetics/glands. It's very much an individual decision. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 19:30:23 GMT From: maya@tcp.co.uk (GR Cogman) Subject: IN> Seed : Theorem for Trouble Hypothesis : UFO sightings are due to Ofanim (I saw the saucer, it was like this wheel of fire!) Deduction : Anybody who saw it has a reasonable chance of higher-than-usual Celestial Forces and/or Perception, to have seen an Ofanim whizzing by. Conclusion (by some Superior or Word-bound who the PCs will be shortly cursing) : These people who go spotting flying saucers would make good Soldier potential, don't you think? Results : Here are your anoraks, here are your binoculars, here are your cameras. Go forth and find good Soldiers, my Servitors, and remember, try to blend into the mortal world... (with thanks to the person who suggested that the Ofanim were UFOs...) - --- Maya, Elohim of Eli in service to Blandine maya@tcp.co.uk - -- "There are those who say that wizards are subject to temptations and addictions beyond the understanding of ordinary men: the addiction to shape-changing, or to meditation under the influence of certain herbs and conditions of the stars; the obsession with knowledge, and the development of power. Yet this is not so. Temptation is temptation, obsession is obsession, and choice is choice." - Isar Chelladan, Precepts of Wizardry. -- "Dog Wizard", Barbara Hambly. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:11:48 -0500 From: The Other Chris Subject: Re: IN> Angelaki cd skogsberg wrote: > Nah... It's made of angels. Not people. We all know angels don't have > souls... > Do we? It states in the rulebook (p67) that they did (which I strongly disagree with BTW). The majority of sources I have state that angels do not have souls, and a number of them cite this as the real reason for the revolt in the first place. Can we have a clarification on this please? Reverend TOC (Newly ordained minister in the Universal Life Church. Hey, if Kitty can be a Reverend, so can I!) P.S. Watched "The Seventh Sign" again last night. Has anyone else seen this? Highly recommended. Watching it with the IN filter on is freaky, but fun. Ranks up there with "The Prophecy" as one of my favourite theological chillers. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:11:46 -0800 From: The Saint of Killers Subject: Re: IN> Seed : Theorem for Trouble > Conclusion (by some Superior or Word-bound who the PCs will be shortly > cursing) : These people who go spotting flying saucers would make good > Soldier potential, don't you think? Yeah, but... (I hate anyone who starts a rebuttel with 'yeah, but!') ...isn't it the old joke that UFOs are only sighted in 'hick communities'? Imagine those soldiers. REDNECK WARRIORS OF GOD! by Garth Ennis A pair of djinn are creeping around in the dark when some huge pitbulls bear down on 'em. Cletus: "Yeehaw! Git 'em, Ripper! Rip 'em, Gitter!" Junior: "Hur. Them dawgs sho' is mean." Demons screaming for mercy. Cletus: "We whupped 'dem boys but good." Junior: "Hur. Let's go drink us some moonshine." Cletus: "Boy howdy." Crazy. Jimbo: "Ah done got my pickup all fixed up by wonna dem oafy-nahts." Billy Bob: "Dayum bwoy, she done zero ter sixty in six seconds befo', whut now?" Jimbo: "Ah dunno, I cain't get 'er tuh stawp!" Or... Jeff Foxworthy: "If your house is on concrete blocks, you might be a re-" Hank: "Hey! You dang ol' serv'tor of Kobal! I'm gonna mess you up, bwoy, I tell you whut!" sok (To those who are offended, I'm from Kansas, so I've offended myself. I'm actually going to sue myself for defaming myself. I constantly hurt myself, and just don't care. I'm so mean to me.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 20:25:41 GMT From: maya@tcp.co.uk (GR Cogman) Subject: IN> Seed : The Appliance of Science The Appliance of Science - ------------------------ Requirements - ------------ This scenario really needs angels as PCs, and a largish city to take place in, with both Jean and Vapula trying to establish a presence/Tether but not as yet having quite done so. Lead-in - ------- In the local city, Thierry, a Malakite of Jean (possibly already known to the PCs) shows up at a demonstration of new alternative technology (I like the idea of some recycling or water-purifying demo) and causes it to fail, in a way that humiliates the providers and discredits the technology. If caught and questioned by PCs, he will explain that he is acting on the orders of Devon, a new Seraph of Jean just arrived in town and his new direct line boss. He does not appear a totally happy or content Malakite. What's Really Happening - ----------------------- Devon is not who he is supposed to be: he is in fact a Balseraph of Kobal (possibly the character Rivet from the INC Archives) impersonating the real Devon, who is a captive of Vapulaic agents. There was a recent Falling among Jean's Servitors, which let the Vapulans find out that a new and as-yet-unknown Seraph was due to join Jean's team. They took advantage of this. Devon flew in from a nearby city as scheduled, arriving safely at the airport, and hailed the nearest taxi. Unfortunately, it was one rigged up by the Vapula-Servitors to gas the person in the back seat. Devon, not being very wise in the ways of the world (he's fairly fresh from Heaven) was asleep before he realised it. The Vapulans went through his belongings, passed his identifications on to Rivet, and stashed him in a safe hiding place. More on Devon later. Rivet showed up at the local (non-Tether) Jean-rendezvous, showed his identification, and was accepted as the new Seraph. In about two days something is going to be spotted as wrong in the reports he's filing, and an Investigation will descend. However, he's planning to be off before then... The Enemy's Schemes - ------------------- In a day or two, Rivet is going to stage an artistic kidnapping of himself-as-Devon, suitable to tie up most of Jean's local organisation and any other angels in the neighbourhood in investigation while - the other end of town - the Vapulans use the captured Devon in a new and non-beta-tested experiment involving forcible angelic Essence extraction and nuclear power. (No, I'm not sure what they _are_ doing, but it's nasty, Devon isn't going to survive it, and any captured angels are welcome additional test subjects). If it works, it'll hopefully create a new Tether to Vapula. Well, they hope it will. Problems - -------- Rivet's sense of humour is getting the better of him. Never trust a Kobalite. While fully wanting to see the Vapulan plan carried out, he can't resist giving the Malakite who's supposed to be "assigned to him" some missions for sheer humour value. Imagine, a Malakite of Jean sabotaging the local Schools Science exhibit! You have to laugh. Thierry is a shade dubious about the new "Seraph on the block", but is assuming that part of it is due to him being new to Earth and still not having quite got the hang of things. He hasn't thought to try using his Resonance on "Devon": after all, all his identification was in order, his Vessel matches the picture that they were faxed... Rivet's plans are going to get more extreme, up to the point where he has to reluctantly drop things and fake a kidnapping - perhaps letting witnesses see him being dragged into the Andre-Tether the other end of town would be amusing... Characters - ---------- Rivet, Balseraph of Kobal: specialising in mistaken identity dark jokes. He's been recruited by the local Vapulans with promises of Essence and amusement. He also values his own skin, and will skip town - possibly without stopping to warn the Vapulans - if things go badly wrong. Devon, Captured Seraph of Jean: currently with a collar that stops him going Celestial, and inconveniently restrained and drained of Essence. ("Hey, guys, let's try those new angel-restraints we were inventing last week!") He is plotting escape, though with little success, and has noted that the Vapulans are making little effort to convert him - which makes him very worried about what they _are_ planning for him. New to Earth, enthusiastic, feeling guilty about his current situation. Thierry, Hard-Working Malakite of Jean: one of those conscientious and reliable types who's used to taking orders from the Seraph in charge. Beginning to worry about this, for the first time in a very long time. "Devon" is new to Earth, of course, and inexperienced, but some of these missions... Calamity, Lilim of Vapula: the current director of Vapulan operations in the neighbourhood, affecting horn-rimmed glasses and wearing her hair in a bun and her clothes severe. While she is not personally the inventor of The Device, she put together this plan, and will be as amoral and vicious as necessary to make sure it works. Don't forget the Gas Taxi. The Device - ---------- It's big. It crackles with electricity and strange lights. There are places where you can strap people into it, and attach electrodes and the like to them. There are big levers and dials. It's been set up somewhere in the cellars of a local set of laboratories or something. It may not work, but it'll probably kill (or drain to shrivelled wrecks) anyone put in it. Think mad scientist. Any comments or criticisms most welcome. Maya - --- Maya, Elohim of Eli in service to Blandine maya@tcp.co.uk - -- "There are those who say that wizards are subject to temptations and addictions beyond the understanding of ordinary men: the addiction to shape-changing, or to meditation under the influence of certain herbs and conditions of the stars; the obsession with knowledge, and the development of power. Yet this is not so. Temptation is temptation, obsession is obsession, and choice is choice." - Isar Chelladan, Precepts of Wizardry. -- "Dog Wizard", Barbara Hambly. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:30:12 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Angelaki The Other Chris wrote: > The majority of sources I have state that angels do > not have souls, and a number of them cite this as the real reason for > the revolt in the first place. What would be meant by "have a soul"? As generally imagined, a soul is an immortal, immaterial consciousness. This is a lot like what an angel or demon is generally imagined to be. The main difference is that souls are generally supposed to spend at least some time incarnate. (St. Thomas Aquinas said that human souls were spirits, but spirits that were *designed* to be attached to bodies.) IN puts some dents in the immortality, for both human souls and celestials, but it leaves in tact the difference between being incarnate and having a corporeal vessel. Earl P.S.: Going back to the word "angelaki," and "angelisco" and other diminutives for, uh, larval angels, how about "angelicule"? Sounds like something that would *specialize* in dancing on the head of a pin. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:20:02 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Michael, this is your life... At 9:55 PM -0500 11/20/97, Neel Krishnaswami wrote: >4. The Purification Crusade -- AD 745 [*] [...] >I'm going to use the 745 AD date, since it makes some things a lot nicer for >me, thematically speaking. And besides, you can't trust Baal and Kronos not >to lie about dates anyhow. :) Uriel was yanked upstairs in 745 AD. The Crusades obviously started before that... (The date, according to esoteric documents, is when the Church decreed that Uriel was not an Archangel, but merely a saint, IIRC what Derek said...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:27:10 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question At 10:30 PM -0800 11/20/97, The Saint of Killers wrote: >> Has anyone conceived of anything which would constitute a sort of >> "Celestial Marriage Vows?" I'm more interested in some sort of temporary >> swearing between two Infernals (I promise not to kill you for your coveted >> M&Ms for this year, my dear) then between two Divines, but the question is >> pretty much the same. > >No, but only because I'm one of the few people out there, it seems, who finds >the whole concept of angels getting married and having babies to be pretty >dumb. What, you'd deprive them of the joys of creation? *sniffle* (Ack. The Seraph of Creation emulation is loose! Help! She cries!) The main canon says that Archangels sing their Servitors out of the Symphony. Or they evolve from relievers (and I won't go into where relievers come from; Eli sneezes, and poof, more of the little things). Or a Superior can take donated Forces from two+ existing angels and perform the binding that way... And marriage or not, there's nothing to say that 2+ celestials can't make vows of love, choosing to hang around together till that day when they might grow apart... (And then there's Servitors of Creation, and that first Rite of theirs...) Unless you don't want that, of course. Your game. >Two doesn't decide where demons come from, but it's not implausible to suggest >that Lucifer's come up with a way to turn the damned into demons. Nononononononononononono... At least, not in canon. Human souls and angel/demon souls are qualitatively different. You can come close, with Undead and Saints, but those are still humans, and will never get Choir/Band resonances, etc. In your own game, hey, go for it. At 8:38 AM -0500 11/21/97, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > Canon alert!: ONLY Lilith can create Lilim. No matter how >any of her children (or the other DPs) try, they only can produce >other sorts of demons. Lilith believes in effective copy protection. You want a Lilim, you have to sign the user agreement... () - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:31:00 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Celestial genders At 11:35 AM -0500 11/21/97, Jesse Rooney wrote: >Question- >Why is Gaberial described as female? My reading of the Bible and the Koran >is that Gabby was male. I am just chauvinist or did Derek and CROC send >Gabby to a clinic in Europe? Celestials can be whatever gender they want. Dominic/Dominique, or Gabriel/Gabrielle. Gaby just decided that it liked being female this millenium. Turn of the century, maybe it will go male again. *I* think it's because it's ineffably cooler to have Gaby be female, and the *pictures*! Yum. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:32:54 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: RE: IN> Angelaki At 6:29 PM +0100 11/23/97, cd skogsberg wrote: >Perry M. Lloyd wrote: >[Elided] >> >Soylent Angel... >> >> Soylent Angel is people! It's made of people! Ahhhhhh!!!! > >Nah... It's made of angels. Not people. We all know angels don't have >souls... Angels *are* souls... They just have bodies occasionally as well, instead of being born into vessels, like humans... Or so I'd say if any kid of mine asked... emccoy@nh.ultranet.com, Uppity Wynch http://brie.bmsc.washington.edu/people/merritt/books/Eye_of_Argon.html "rumoured to contain hoards of plunder, and many young wenches" Mike [falsetto]: "We're tired of these degrading patriachical slurs! From now on we demand to be called 'wynchys.'" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:31:09 From: Jeff Miller Subject: IN> Re: At 11:35 AM 11/21/97 -0500, you wrote: >Question- >Why is Gaberial described as female? My reading of the Bible and the Koran >is that Gabby was male. I am just chauvinist or did Derek and CROC send >Gabby to a clinic in Europe? Well, Celestials can be either or neither based on personal preference at the time. I got the impression from the books that after the Muslim gig and the fallout from it, Gaby decided to be female. I could draw further conclusions but Beth or Emily might find me and hurt me. Jeff Miller Program Director/Webmaster for Agamemcon II Burbank Airport Hilton -- May 22-24, 1998 Contact Info: 24161-H Hollyoak (714)643-8352 Laguna Hills, CA 92656 www.primenet.com/~shadocat/agamemcon.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:26:04 From: Jeff Miller Subject: Re: IN> Superior's Hearts At 11:33 PM 11/20/97 EST, you wrote: >>I like the thought that Celestial geography is different from Corporial. >>Maybe the Heart that one part of the Grove represents depends on ones >>perspective. Say there's a stone cliff in the Grove. If you see it as a >>representation of stone then it is David's Heart; if you see it for its >>tactical implications then it is Michael's Heart; and if you see it as >>someplace that's tall, it is Janus' Heart. > ^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^ ^^^^ > >Eh? Someplace that's tall is Janus? Ummm... Okay, as you like it. :) >Tall - Janus, Janus - Tall. Well, I can kinda see it... > I was thinking more of the in the sky/wind part of it though being able to hang glide off of it would also probably appeal. Jeff Miller Program Director/Webmaster for Agamemcon II Burbank Airport Hilton -- May 22-24, 1998 Contact Info: 24161-H Hollyoak (714)643-8352 Laguna Hills, CA 92656 www.primenet.com/~shadocat/agamemcon.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 17:07:42 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: At 11:31 AM -0500 11/21/97, Jeff Miller wrote: >At 11:35 AM 11/21/97 -0500, you wrote: >>Why is Gaberial described as female? [...] >I got the impression from the books that after the Muslim gig and the >fallout from it, Gaby decided to be female. > >I could draw further conclusions but Beth or Emily might find me and hurt me. > Do not taunt the Demon Princess of PMS, puny man. Not unless you want some extreme vessel adaptations. (Celestial Song of Form, anyone?) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:07:58 PST From: "Vincent Agnoli" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Seed : Theorem for Trouble >> Conclusion (by some Superior or Word-bound who the PCs will be shortly >> cursing) : These people who go spotting flying saucers would make good >> Soldier potential, don't you think? Yeah, but... (I hate anyone who starts a rebuttel >with 'yeah, but!') ...isn't it >the old joke that UFOs are only sighted in 'hick >communities'? Imagine those >soldiers. >REDNECK WARRIORS OF GOD! > by Garth Ennis [snip] > (To those who are offended, I'm from Kansas, so >I've offended myself. I'm >actually going to sue myself for defaming myself. I >constantly hurt myself, and >just don't care. I'm so mean to me.) Tha shure was funny. I tell ya whut. Dat der Saint is one funny critter. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 17:17:02 -0500 From: The Other Chris Subject: IN> Angels and Souls (was Angelaki) Earl Wajenberg wrote: > What would be meant by "have a soul"? As generally imagined, a soul > is an immortal, immaterial consciousness. The Archangel Beth wrote: >Angels *are* souls... They just have bodies occasionally as well, >instead of being born into vessels, like humans... Or >so I'd say if any kid of mine asked... Okay, so I guess that's the canonical answer. I'd like people to consider another possible view. Webster's definition of a soul is; 1. The immaterial substance or essense, animating principle, or actuating cause of life 2. The spiritual principle shared by all human beings 3. The immortal part of mankind having permanent individual existance 4. A seat of *real* life, vitality or action (my emphasis) 5. Man's moral or emotional nature as opposed to his intellect The general concensus appears to be that the soul is not the same thing as the mind or consciousness, and that not all things that think necessarily have a soul. In the standard IN worldview, celestials are way better than us, no doubt. They have souls, super-powers, they're pretty much immortal. There is nothing about us that makes us special in any way. So why didn't God stop with them? An alternative view is that there is something fundamentally different about humans, and that thing the soul. Too many sources have made a point of stating that angels don't have souls for it to be one of those things we just got wrong (though typically, I can't lay my hand on any of those sources right now!). What if celestials are a sort of free-willed divine android, fully capable of thought and emotion and moral decisions, but lacking that special fragment of God that is gifted to humans. It doesn't make them any less sentient and actually gives them a reason to fight over us all the time. The war may have started over the fact that God planned to create the human race and equip them with a fragment of himself, something the angels didn't have and would rather have liked. The bible (amongst other sources) tells us that man was created below the angels, but that they were told to bow to us. If they are superior to us in every single way, why bother? I think it adds considerably to the motivations of the celestials to have them envy or value us for something they can never have. It also means that life is more than something that can just be "whipped up" out of the symphony like someone assembling a car out of spare parts. It may not be canon, but it's worth thinking about. Rev. TOC P.S. How about Adonites (Adonai = Lord, so it would translate as "little lords") ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #481 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.