From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sun Nov 23 17:28:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA25658 for ; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 17:28:30 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id RAA12014 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 17:21:04 -0600 Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 17:21:04 -0600 Message-Id: <199711232321.RAA12014@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #483 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Sunday, November 23 1997 Volume 01 : Number 483 In this digest: Re: IN> Strange Question Re: IN> Strange Question Re: IN> Strange Question Re: IN> Strange Question--A little long(winded?) :) Re: IN> Angels and Souls (was Angelaki) Re: IN> Strange Question Re: IN> Superior's Hearts IN> Lilith's Origin IN> Relievers IN> The Symphony: extending the metaphor IN> Strange Question Re: IN> Angels and Souls (was Angelaki) Re: IN> Strange Question--A little long(winded?) :) Re: IN> Lilith's Origin IN> An Awful Noise in the Name of the Lord (was Re: Achmetha) Re: IN> Lilith's Origin Re: IN> An Awful Noise in the Name of the Lord Re: IN> Lilith's Origin Re: IN> An Awful Noise in the Name of the Lord (was Re: Achmetha) Re: IN> An Awful Noise in the Name of the Lord Re: IN> Seed : Theorem for Trouble Re: IN> Re: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 18:15:47 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question > > I don't know. In the vignette at the beginning of the book, angel > > fair, and demon hot both seemed to go around their respective > > superiors to do the celestial wild thing and produce a infink. Since > > they both got in big trouble, I would assume there was a drive of > > somekind behind it. > > *Someone* has been reading John Constantine: Hellblazer... > > _Guys and Dolls_, to be precise. I would point out that the demon is hot in temperature only; why *any* angel would get it on with a Shedim is beyond me... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "From where do you come barbarian, Crow: You mean you're a prostitute and you don't know from where guys-- Mike: Don't make me wash your mouth out with soap. http://brie.bmsc.washington.edu/people/merritt/books/Eye_of_Argon.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 18:30:52 -0500 (EST) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Thomas Davidson wrote: > > I never bought the 'Lilith as mortal' bit. In my game, she is a fallen > > Grigori...the first, in fact. > > But that is neither "canonical", nor faithful to the source material. Oh, horrors. Call the game police, I'm deviating from canon. > Lilith was Adam's first wife... or at least she was created as such, but > chose freedom instead. Yes, I know this. How does this contradict what I have said? I stated that the Grigori in my game were created to A) be genetic-neutral breeding stock for the early days of humanity when a small gene pool would have produced birth defects, and B) teach humanity what it needed to learn in order to survive in the post-Edenic world. With Lilith as a Grigori, this would mean that yes, indeed, she was created to be Adam's wife. > In Kaballah, she is also seen as a Entity of the > Qlippoth (simply, "demons", but it's a little more complicated than that). Given that she births demons at an enormous rate, this would make sense. > So, apparently she gained quite a bit in relative power in the last couple > of millenia. To become simply the first wife of the first man to a > powerful entity means that *something* had to happen. Something -did- happen: she went from Fallen Grigori to Demon Princess. > Mmmm... don't know. IMC, the "first family" is really a metaphor. Even if > it weren't a metaphor, the story didn't quite occur as it did in The Bible. Then why the &%$#@! are you arguing with me? Your Lilith is going to be substantially different from mine, seeing as how you, too, have *gasp!* deviated from canon. Look, I don't mind you disagreeing with me. I'm just irritated that you haven't provided any rationale for -why- you disagree with me, other than the fact that it isn't canon. - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 23:44:53 -0500 From: francis helie Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question At 16:27 97-11-21 -0500, you wrote: > >And marriage or not, there's nothing to say that 2+ celestials can't >make vows of love, choosing to hang around together till that day >when they might grow apart... (And then there's Servitors of Creation, >and that first Rite of theirs...) > > BTW weren't Beleth and Blandine lovers, companion, significant others (take your pick)before the fall.This would seem to indicate a need for at least companionship in celestials, if not love.There was a very powerful bond between them.So if it works for AA why not the servitors? Know Thyself and become what you are. Connais toi toi-même et deviens ce que tu es. Werner Jaeger (Paideia) The Philosopher King. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 00:41:53 -0500 From: "Thomas Davidson" Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question--A little long(winded?) :) > From: Casca > To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question > Date: Saturday, November 22, 1997 6:30 PM > > On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Thomas Davidson wrote: > > > I never bought the 'Lilith as mortal' bit. In my game, she is a fallen > > > Grigori...the first, in fact. > > > > But that is neither "canonical", nor faithful to the source material. > > Oh, horrors. Call the game police, I'm deviating from canon. > I'm sure they're going to be kicking my door down sometime soon, as well. :) "But, officer, it's against my religion to go by canon." :-) > > Lilith was Adam's first wife... or at least she was created as such, but > > chose freedom instead. > > Yes, I know this. How does this contradict what I have said? > Because you're saying she was an angel... What I meant was that the *implication* in the rulebook is that Lilith was human. > > Mmmm... don't know. IMC, the "first family" is really a metaphor. Even if > > it weren't a metaphor, the story didn't quite occur as it did in The Bible. > > Then why the &%$#@! are you arguing with me? Whoa. Wait. I'm not arguing with you. You replied to my message, which was, in turn, a reply to a message Karakash wrote earlier this week. I was simply stating my opinion to a reply to my message, because I felt that your statements were out of context of the earlier messages. My original message was intended to show to Mr. Karakash that in the main book, a precedence does *seem* to exist. That in order for canon to remain consistent, the implication would seem to be that Lilith *wasn't* human, nor were Adam and Eve before the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil thing. Then, too, since Lilith never ate from the TKGE, this would imply that TKGE was the thing that made Adam and Eve *different*, and incapable of becoming Angel or Demon--rather, they become boddhisattva (sp?) and Saints. Perhaps part of the confusion about this is the fact that the original message for some inexplicable reason sat in my "Outbox" without being sent for nearly three days. By that time, the message I was responding to was long forgotten. Your Lilith is going to be > substantially different from mine, seeing as how you, too, have *gasp!* > deviated from canon. > I never meant to imply that I was going by canon, because I'm not. IMC, the Ethereal Deities are correct in their claims that God was an Ethereal once. Right there, I'm deviating from *apparent* canon Besides, my campaigns are living, breathing things. I'm writing them as I go along. What I say today might change tomorrow. > Look, I don't mind you disagreeing with me. I'm just irritated that you > haven't provided any rationale for -why- you disagree with me, other than > the fact that it isn't canon. > I don't disagree with you, necessarily. What you do in your own campaign is your own business, really. Do what you want. But have I made myself a little clearer? I was trying in my previous posts to be as brief as possible so as to take up as little bandwidth as possible, and I guess some of the things I was implying got lost in the translation. I forget sometimes that we can't read each other minds.:-) I don't want this to turn into a flame-war. I've been caught in the middle of these things before on other lists (the worst was the Champions List, which I subsequently left). I *don't* want that to happen on this list because I hate confrontation in general and I like the people on this list too much to have to leave (or get kicked off) for something stupid like this. If I said something (though I don't understand what I could have possibly said) to offend or irritate, then I beg forgiveness. I never even meant to *irritate*. Thomas Davidson tdavidso@suffolk.lib.ny.us MUSIC: Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Rolling Stones, Rush, Jimi Hendrix GAMES: Champions (old and new), In Nomine, Nephilim TV: The X-Files, The Simpsons, Superman, The Tick, The Animaniacs OTHER: Religion, Philosophy, mysticism, the runes, the Tarot, writing ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 01:40:04 -0500 From: "Steven Ehrbar" Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Souls (was Angelaki) >In the standard IN worldview, celestials are way better than us, no >doubt. They have souls, super-powers, they're pretty much immortal. >There is nothing about us that makes us special in any way. So why >didn't God stop with them? There's nothing about a chimpanzee that makes them special compared to humans, for that matter. So why didn't God stop with us? And, BTW, does God believe celestials or humans are better? Sure, angels are more *powerful*. So? When did God start favoring intelligent and strong humans over stupid and weak ones? >An alternative view is that there is something fundamentally different >about humans, and that thing the soul. Too many sources have made a >point of stating that angels don't have souls for it to be one of those >things we just got wrong. Until the last 3,000 or so years, nearly all religions taught as official doctrine that the virtuous would prosper in life and that the "sinful" would suffer. Too many sources made a point of that for it to be one of those things we just got wrong. Now, the difference is, Scripture specifically says (but not in the Pentatauch) now that sufferers are not necessarily suffering for sin. OTOH, Scripture is completely silent on the question of whether angels have souls, or whether animals have souls, or even if rocks have souls. In fact, as far as our knowelge goes, a ballpoint pen might have a soul of a sort. I certainly am not going to tell God he couldn't have worked it that way -- at least not with a clear passage of Scripture to quote at him :-) - -- Stephen, Seraph Friend of Judgment ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 03:02:11 EST From: "Perry M. Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question From: francis helie >> >>And marriage or not, there's nothing to say that 2+ celestials can't >>make vows of love, choosing to hang around together till that day >>when they might grow apart... (And then there's Servitors of Creation, >>and that first Rite of theirs...) >> >> >BTW weren't Beleth and Blandine lovers, companion, significant others (take your >pick)before the fall. >This would seem to indicate a need for at least companionship in >celestials, if not love. I disagree. The presence of something does not imply a need of that thing. The fact that my neighbor read mystery novels does not mean there is a need to read mystery novels in my neighbor. The fact that two people (beings) are "together" in a strong emotionally bonding way does not mean that there is a need for that to be. [IMHO] Of course, I would also say that the presence of a behavior in a being indicates that said behavior is found desirable by the being. Such as crack use for the crack addict and contra dancing for the contra dancing fanatic. Are they "needs" and can we compare the relationship of "needs" and "desirable behaviors" in people and animals to celestial creatures? - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd "Methought I walked a dismal place Dim horrors all around; The air was thick with many a face, And black as night the ground." -Lewis Carroll (from "Horrors"-1850) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 03:03:33 EST From: "Perry M. Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Superior's Hearts >I was thinking more of the in the sky/wind part of it though being able to >hang glide off of it would also probably appeal. Cool. O:::) - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd "Methought I walked a dismal place Dim horrors all around; The air was thick with many a face, And black as night the ground." -Lewis Carroll (from "Horrors"-1850) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 03:16:50 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Lilith's Origin >>>In other words, there *is* a precedence for Lucifer being able to change a human into a demon... or am I missing something?<<< I'd say Lilith was a special case. Lucifer probably *can* turn a human into a demon under very special circumstances, if he really wants to, but it's so infrequent (Lilith may be the only example) that it doesn't enter into consideration normally. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 03:16:48 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Relievers >>>The main book (the only one I have) goes into VERY little detail about relievers. In fact, it seems almost as if SJG don't want us to use 'em. Or rather, a cheap "buy the next book" scheme?<<< More like "We can only fit so much into one book." Yes, relievers will be covered in more detail in the Angelic Player's Guide. But for the most part, they're like angels with fewer Forces. >>>1. How does an angel communicate with his reliever servant?<<< Same way he'd communicate with another angel. >>>2. Is a reliever visible in the corporeal world? Does it have a vessel, so to speak? If not, how can it "pull car keys from between cushions" ?<<< Relievers usually stay in their celestial form. They do not need a vessel, but if they don't have one, the only way they'd be able to manipulate physical objects would be with an attunement or a Song (such as the Ethereal Song of Motion). >>>3. Can they have skills? How about equipment?<<< Yes, but it's unlikely a reliever would be given an artifact. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 22:39:41 -0500 From: "bruce dykes" Subject: IN> The Symphony: extending the metaphor In the discussion of the difference between angelic/demonic souls vs. human souls, perhaps this extension of the metaphor may help: Consider celestials to be the instruments or voices of the Symphony, while humans are the notes of the Symphony. God's plan is to help humans grow enough so they can exist in a pleasant, harmonious Symphony on their own. In short, having the Earth become a nice place to live *because* of the humans. The diabolical scheme is that the celestials, specifically the demons , should be running things, and I think we can all imagine an orchestra where each instrument plays just what it wants to... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 03:16:52 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Strange Question >>>(Heaven and Hell spoiler) I don't know. In the vignette at the beginning of the book, angel fair, and demon hot both seemed to go around their respective superiors to do the celestial wild thing and produce a infink. Since they both got in big trouble, I would assume there was a drive of somekind behind it.<<< Yes, but there was more to it than mere sex. - -David (I ain't saying what else was going on....yet ) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 07:13:38 -0500 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Souls (was Angelaki) >Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 01:50:26 -0500 >From: Jesse Rooeny >Subject: > >>> In the standard IN worldview, celestials are way better than us, no >>> doubt. They have souls, super-powers, they're pretty much immortal. >>> There is nothing about us that makes us special in any way. So why >>> didn't God stop with them? >(1) Mortal's souls -are- immortal. We are going to soar in Heaven or burn >in Hell forever. It is alot easier to soul kill an angel than it is to >soul kill a mortal and only one charceter in the stanard In Nomine continum >does that, the Prince of Death. On the contrary, if you can get them in a situation where it's possible, it's far easier to Soul-Kill Joe Five-Force than your standard Angel. Any Demon (Or any Angel, for that matter), if he gets mad enough, can go at it celestially with a Human soul in the Celestial Realm and rip it to shreds. Not only that, but any entity capable of entering a Dreamscape can engage in Celestial Combat with its owner, and strip his forces that way. The main difference being that Saminga knows how to do it so that the Forces are removed, rather than destroyed, and he's not the only one. His higher-ranking servitors have their own processing plants, and I'm sure a number of other Demon Princes know the process, but don't perform it on anywhere near the scale. >(2) "Why didn't God stop with them?" That is exacltly the question that >lead to the Fall. I do not have an answer on hand but it has to do with us >having free will and the ability to choose between good and evil. >Futhermore we are the center of Creation. God made this world for us not >the angels. >- -Jesse >Ofanite of Tequila = http://www.io.com/~beholder ===================== nofori@pop3.utoled.edu === Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Jaraith, Shedite Baron of Nightmares, the Demon of NONONOAUUUAARRGGGHHH!!! ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 09:50:45 -0500 (EST) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question--A little long(winded?) :) On Sun, 23 Nov 1997, Thomas Davidson wrote: > > Yes, I know this. How does this contradict what I have said? > > Because you're saying she was an angel... What I meant was that the > *implication* in the rulebook is that Lilith was human. Ah! That wasn't clear. Yes, I know it is implied in the rulebook, but I don't particularly like that implication, so out it goes. I don't like the notion that Lucifer turned a human into a Demon Princess. But if we make Lilith a Celestial to begin with, it makes so much more sense... > > Then why the &%$#@! are you arguing with me? > > Whoa. Wait. I'm not arguing with you. You replied to my message, which > was, in turn, a reply to a message Karakash wrote earlier this week. I > was simply stating my opinion to a reply to my message, because I felt that > your statements were out of context of the earlier messages. What set me off was that statement right at the beginning, where it seemed like you were objecting to what I said simply because it wasn't canonical. If I misinterpreted you, I apologize. > My original > message was intended to show to Mr. Karakash that in the main book, a > precedence does *seem* to exist. That in order for canon to remain > consistent, the implication would seem to be that Lilith *wasn't* human, > nor were Adam and Eve before the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil thing. > Then, too, since Lilith never ate from the TKGE, this would imply that TKGE > was the thing that made Adam and Eve *different*, and incapable of becoming > Angel or Demon--rather, they become boddhisattva (sp?) and Saints. This explanation makes things MUCH clearer. > Perhaps part of the confusion about this is the fact that the original > message for some inexplicable reason sat in my "Outbox" without being sent > for nearly three days. By that time, the message I was responding to was > long forgotten. Yeah, that'll do it. ;) > I don't disagree with you, necessarily. What you do in your own campaign > is your own business, really. Do what you want. > > But have I made myself a little clearer? I was trying in my previous posts > to be as brief as possible so as to take up as little bandwidth as > possible, and I guess some of the things I was implying got lost in the > translation. I forget sometimes that we can't read each other minds.:-) Perhaps if you gave context, this could be avoided in the future. ("This goes along with what I was saying to Karakesh about Lilith, in that blah blah blah.") Sometimes brevity can be a bad thing... > this. If I said something (though I don't understand what I could have > possibly said) to offend or irritate, then I beg forgiveness. I never even > meant to *irritate*. It's okay. It wasn't what you said, but what you -seemed- to be saying. Now that we've cleared that up, everything's fine now. :) - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 10:20:38 -0600 (CST) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Lilith's Origin >>>>In other words, there *is* a precedence for Lucifer being able to change >a human into a demon... or am I missing something?<<< > > >I'd say Lilith was a special case. Lucifer probably *can* turn a human into >a demon under very special circumstances, if he really wants to, but it's >so infrequent (Lilith may be the only example) that it doesn't enter into >consideration normally. Actually, as I understood it, Lilith is a totally unique creature. She's not really Celestial, and she's not the same as modern humans. She represents what humanity was before eating of the fruit of good and evil. She's immortal, intelligent, capable of Free Will, and empowered by Lucifer- but not truly Demonic in nature. Her children, OTOH, are definitely demons. (This is the approach I've taken in DV, and in that version it's a great chunk of Lilith's fears- if she Redeems, will she become mortal like other humans- with thousands of years catching up with her?) - --- Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Do not taunt Happy Fun Belial. http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | * * * c/o White Lightning Productions | "I love the sweet smell of http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | humiliation in the morning!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Kobal reaffirms himself http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 97 11:39:59 -0500 From: David Wood Subject: IN> An Awful Noise in the Name of the Lord (was Re: Achmetha) I'm ccing this to the people in my gaming group, because 1) they'd get a kick out of it, and b) I want to reassure them that the lack of combat in my campaign is a *good* thing. Quoth "Neel Krishnaswami " on 11/22/97 5:58 PM... >: <2> Hunter/Killer - specifically, characters who solve any problem by >: methodically placing lead in anyone who is related to the problem, as >: well as any witnesses. If that's what you want, play Shadowrun... > >Yep. It's often really hard to think of a way to fight this tendency without >indulging in it yourself -- when the PCs blow up a building full of people, >the urge to send in a squad of Dominic's Malakim can be overwhelming. And well it should be. Let's do a little math, shall we? If it's at an off-time, let's say the building contains 120 people. Humans average 5 forces each except behind the counters at certain Wendy's restaurants, but for now let's discount that. Furthermore, let's give the H/Ks the benefit of the doubt and figure they plant enough charges to level the building, killing everyone inside. This is why they're setting it off at an off-hour, because they had to wait until there were fewer people in there to notice them planting the charges. (The benefit of the doubt I'm giving them, by the way, is that they're thorough, NOT smart.) Now, when one of them snuffs it by unnatural causes (i.e. a Celestial caks 'im), a Disturbance to the Symphony is produced which other Celestials may pick up. In the case of a human, that's 10 points for the death itself, and 1 for each force leaving. That's 15 points on the average. 15 x 120 = 1800. That's a really, really, really, REALLY loud noise. Now let's figure out HOW loud. An average starting Celestial (call this a minimum) has 3 Celestial forces and has a Perception of 6. According to the book, if they're at "ground zero" when this goes off, they have to roll less than 1806 on 2D6 to notice it. There's a -1 to notice every (Cel forces x disturbance size) yards away they are. In the average celestial's case, that's 5400 yards, or a little over 3 miles (3.0681818182 miles, but let's just call it 3 for the sake of easy math). The farthest away the average ones can be and still automatically detect it is 1794*3 miles, or 5382 miles. Assuming this goes off in the continental USA, every average Celestial (angels AND demons) in the continental US and much of Canada and Mexico will pick up this disturbance. But that's only the *average* celestial. The other case I like to figure for is the extremely good 'adventuring' Celestial, the one that has 6 Forces and a Perception of 12. The propagation of this sound is (6*1800)=10800 yards, or 6.1363636364 miles. I'm rounding to 6.1 because when we're dealing in numbers this large, even the hairs can get hairy. The farthest away the good ones can be and still automatically detect it is 1800*6.1 = 10980 miles ...and the Earth is only 8,000 miles in diameter as the crow burrows (or swims through that molten part in the middle). Since it's a Celestial sound, it wouldn't be slowed down by earth, would it? [Canon Request] For the moment, let's assume that all the really talented celestials pick up this sound. And their superiors. 1/6 of them will know the full details of the incident. And they'll have 1800 minutes, or 30 hours to track down the cause of the disturbance. Don't count on many Celestials spending Essence during this time, though; where in the book it says that "When several Symphony-changing actions take place together, or nearly together, in space and time, treat each one as a new event that includes all the preceding ones." (p. 55) The house rule I use in this case is that the "in time" part is one quarter of the value of the latest disturbance in minutes. So someone spends 3 Essence near ground zero within 7.5 hours, and up goes an echo with a value of 1803. Repeat above calculations. I haven't decided on a good Rule of Thumb for the "space" part; I'm open to suggestions. [Canon Request] All right, that's said. Now, who would track them down? Dominic's Malakim. Laurence's Malakim. Michael's Malakim. Gabriel's Malakim. Jean's Malakim. Novalis would *draft* Malakim on this occasion. And I could even see Yves being just a little miffed at them. But wait, that's just Heaven! Asmodeus would send agents to investigate. Baal and Belial would want to *recruit* them. Kronos would be torn; here are several Angels flying headlong into one of the most glorious Fates imagineable, but at the same time they're keeping a lot of people from meeting theirs. Saminga would probably want them destroyed out of jealousy, though he might admire their work. Kobal, well, that's the punch line below. Whatever of their forces are still holding together after this sort of onslaught will probably spend the next several years helping Achmetha gather information on the victims. Except for the incredible tedium to the GM, I'd tell you to roleplay it as a punishment. After the first dozen or so, offer them the option to generate new characters. And I'd say give them *special* character sheets, with either A) the definition of the word "subtlety" or B) the formulae for the Disturbance mechanics printed in bold letters at the top of the sheet. Oh, and remember Kobal? He'd be laughing his ass off at this little exercise because He Got It. If your players don't, explain it to them: the bomb and subsequent collapse of the building did *only* Corporeal damage to the handful of demons inside. All they have to do is generate new Vessels and they'll be as good as new. > But >IME that only serves as reinforcement; the players think "we failed because >we didn't have enough force!" and next time go for a nuke. Okay, let's assume that it's a small yield device, and that it no more than decimates the population. If it's a fairly large city, somewhere around 1 million people, the death toll would be around 100,000 people alone. Call it 150,000 for deaths and forces, and that says nothing of animals (they have forces too) and buildings (property damage disturbs the Symphony too). The exact size of the Disturbance and the ranges they can be heard at (as well as the raging horizontal poopystorm that would spring up as a result of it) are left as an exercise to the reader. [Canon Request] Are there any Celestials on the moon? - -David http://www.bluecrab.org/members/dwood/ No, not THAT David. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 17:09:38 -0200 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: Re: IN> Lilith's Origin Redneck Gaijin wrote: > Actually, as I understood it, Lilith is a totally unique creature. She's not > really Celestial, and she's not the same as modern humans. She represents > what humanity was before eating of the fruit of good and evil. In My Personal Point of View, Lilith is just the opposite: She is what humanity cold become *after* eating the fruit of knowledge *and* the fruit of life (there were two trees, mind you!). We came from Adam and Eve, who only had time to eat from the Tree of Knowledge before all Hell (pardon...) brake loose... So she knew what was happening around her *and* she was immortal. That's why she left. And after witnessing God's tyranny, and the Fall, siding with Lucifer was her obvious choice... Andre, D.P., back from the dead!! ):-9 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 16:10:56 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> An Awful Noise in the Name of the Lord Redneck - DV question down the page a bit.. Wow, that one hurt. A lot. Especially since you forgot to add in the noise from the damage to the building and the humans, and didn't check the ranges where it *wouldn't* be heard... > >IME that only serves as reinforcement; the players think "we > >failed because we didn't have enough force!" and next time go for > >a nuke. > > Okay, let's assume that it's a small yield device, and that it no > more than decimates the population. You know, I think he was joking...;-) > If it's a fairly large city, > somewhere around 1 million people, the death toll would be around > 100,000 people alone. Call it 150,000 for deaths and forces, and > that says nothing of animals (they have forces too) and buildings > (property damage disturbs the Symphony too). You're off by a factor of 10. That would cause 1.5 million Disturbance. Not counting damage to humans and structures. Which brings me to the question for Redneck - how many people died in Armageddon as a result of Celestial actions? Because I'm getting the feeling that other *galaxies* will have heard what happened. And I can just imagine the headaches it would cause. On the plus side, everyone who can hear the Symphony (supposing it hasn't just broken under the strain) will know where Saminga is for the next decade or so... > The exact size of the Disturbance and the ranges they can be heard > at (as well as the raging horizontal poopystorm that would spring > up as a result of it) are left as an exercise to the reader. Two things: 1) For some reason (probably lack of sleep) the phrase "raging horizontal poopystorm" just about poleaxed me... 2) The range for automatically hearing by an average Celestial is 3.8 billion miles. A Watcher Celestial (6 CF, 12 Per) would hear it at about 7.7 billion miles. The echos would continue for about three years... > [Canon Request] Are there any Celestials on the moon? [Canon Request] Are there any Celestials on Alpha Centauri? ;-) Yours in Cacaphony, Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 16:29:52 -0500 From: "Thomas Davidson" Subject: Re: IN> Lilith's Origin - ---------- > From: Redneck Gaijin > To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Subject: Re: IN> Lilith's Origin > Date: Sunday, November 23, 1997 11:20 AM > > >>>>In other words, there *is* a precedence for Lucifer being able to change > >a human into a demon... or am I missing something?<<< > > > > > >I'd say Lilith was a special case. Lucifer probably *can* turn a human into > >a demon under very special circumstances, if he really wants to, but it's > >so infrequent (Lilith may be the only example) that it doesn't enter into > >consideration normally. > > Actually, as I understood it, Lilith is a totally unique creature. She's not > really Celestial, and she's not the same as modern humans. She represents > what humanity was before eating of the fruit of good and evil. She's > immortal, intelligent, capable of Free Will, and empowered by Lucifer- but > not truly Demonic in nature. > Okay, I understand and agree with this. This is what I've been suspecting, anyway. She's the sole survivor of the Edenic humans (Homo edenus? I don't know... my Latin is *incredibly* rusty). It's the only thing that makes sense to me. "Adam" and "Eve" changed the moment they ate from the TKGE, and became "Homo sapiens". This is what I'm feeling, anyway. > Her children, OTOH, are definitely demons. > Oh, absolutely. > (This is the approach I've taken in DV, and in that version it's a great > chunk of Lilith's fears- if she Redeems, will she become mortal like other > humans- with thousands of years catching up with her?) > I don't think so, though. She might *fear* that, and she might feel sh has good reason to do so, but whether it's the truth or not, remains to be seen. Thomas Davidson tdavidso@suffolk.lib.ny.us MUSIC: Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Rolling Stones, Rush, Jimi Hendrix GAMES: Champions (old and new), In Nomine, Nephilim TV: The X-Files, The Simpsons, Superman, The Tick, The Animaniacs OTHER: Religion, Philosophy, mysticism, the runes, the Tarot, writing ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 17:01:01 -0500 From: Jesse Rooney Subject: Re: IN> An Awful Noise in the Name of the Lord (was Re: Achmetha) >All right, that's said. Now, who would track them down? Dominic's >Malakim. Laurence's Malakim. Michael's Malakim. Gabriel's Malakim. Jean's >Malakim. Novalis would *draft* Malakim on this occasion. >And I could even see Yves being just a little miffed at them. > You forgot other choirs. In a case like this Ofanim would be sent frist so they can get there frist and establish a beachhead and look for the cause. Seraphim would be with Elohim to figure out what happened. Mecrcuians would be sent to comfort the surviors and the dead's family and they probablyt have the most important job in terms of the Big Picture. Finally, Cherubs, esp. Dominic's would be sent to track down the culprits and would pair up w/ Ofanim. >But wait, that's just Heaven! Asmodeus would send agents to investigate. >Baal and Belial would want to *recruit* them. Kronos would be torn; here >are several Angels flying headlong into one of the most glorious Fates >imagineable, but at the same time they're keeping a lot of people from >meeting theirs. Saminga would probably want them destroyed out of >jealousy, though he might admire their work. Kobal, well, that's the >punch line below. Heck, Saminga would -show up- to play with the bodies! Furfur would also show up and so would Malphas as there would be plenty of folks to turn against each other. Soilders, Saints and Sorcerers would show up to, not to metion Children of Grigori. Kobal would not show up, he'd take this time to play a few "jokes." You could base a story or a campign around what happens when Angels go bombing. - -Jesse Ofanite of Tequila ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 16:12:29 -0600 (CST) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> An Awful Noise in the Name of the Lord >Which brings me to the question for Redneck - how many people died in >Armageddon as a result of Celestial actions? Because I'm getting the >feeling that other *galaxies* will have heard what happened. And I >can just imagine the headaches it would cause. At a -very- rough guess, I'd say about 250,000,000 on the day itself. (This is deaths -directly- caused by Celestial acts, not indirectly or through human tools.) That's about 1/5th of the day's deaths. >On the plus side, everyone who can hear the Symphony (supposing it >hasn't just broken under the strain) will know where Saminga is for >the next decade or so... That's the thing, I couldn't find a reference anywhere to how long it takes a disturbance to fade or not. My impression from the writeup in the IN Rulebook was it tends to fade pretty quickly- otherwise you'd get more than one shot to Percieve it. Still, when you're talking about a thrashing as severe as Armageddeon... Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Do not taunt Happy Fun Belial. http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | * * * c/o White Lightning Productions | "I love the sweet smell of http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | humiliation in the morning!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Kobal reaffirms himself http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 17:39:03 EST From: "Perry M. Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Seed : Theorem for Trouble >REDNECK WARRIORS OF GOD! > by Garth Ennis Heyll yeah. This here's some pretty darn good stuff. Kinda gets me a hankering for the ole' homestead, down in southeastirn Ohia... :) Like I said, this there's right pretty work. - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd "Methought I walked a dismal place Dim horrors all around; The air was thick with many a face, And black as night the ground." -Lewis Carroll (from "Horrors"-1850) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 18:17:32 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Re: > At 11:31 AM -0500 11/21/97, Jeff Miller wrote: > >At 11:35 AM 11/21/97 -0500, you wrote: > >>Why is Gaberial described as female? [...] > >I got the impression from the books that after the Muslim gig and the > >fallout from it, Gaby decided to be female. > > > >I could draw further conclusions but Beth or Emily might find me and hurt me. > > > > Do not taunt the Demon Princess of PMS, puny man. Not unless you > want some extreme vessel adaptations. (Celestial Song of Form, anyone?) > And I might find you and hurt you just out of spite. :) - - Em ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #483 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.