From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sun Nov 23 22:47:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA16605 for ; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 22:47:10 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id WAA01174 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 22:41:08 -0600 Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 22:41:08 -0600 Message-Id: <199711240441.WAA01174@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #484 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Sunday, November 23 1997 Volume 01 : Number 484 In this digest: Re: IN> Angels and Souls (was Angelaki) IN> Off-planet Celestials Re: IN> Strange Question Re: IN> Angels and Souls (was Angelaki) Re: IN> Strange Question Re: IN> Strange Question Re: IN> Strange Question Re: IN> Angels and Souls (was Angelaki) Re: IN> Strange Question RE: IN> Song: Divine Touch (feedback please) RE: IN> Song: Divine Touch (feedback please) Re: IN> Strange Question Re: IN> An Awful Noise in the Name of the Lord Re: IN> Strange Question Re: IN> An Awful Noise in the Name of the Lord Re: IN> Strange Question Re: IN> Strange Question IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #483 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 18:59:08 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Souls (was Angelaki) > I remebered what it was that made us better than angels. We are made in > the image of God the inference being God did not make angels in His image. > Prehaps this means that God, the Creator, made us creators too, we can make > tools and clone sheep and all that whereas angels may just be uncreative or > something. Kult, 2nd Edition, Chapter 2, "The Captivity of Man", page 8: In reference to man and Reality: "Mankind has not always been ignorant. Before the dawn of history, we had senses that could percieve reality. We were born as gods, with power over matter. Our existance on the Earth, and our inability to see the truth, are a captivity. Those few people who manage to break through the illusions and out into the true world, may escape from the prison and regain their divinity. "There are many ways in which to percieve reality. The most common is the one that is centered on the Demiurge [God]. It was the Demiurge who blinded us, long ago, and imprisioned us. He locked us up in the reality we now see around us.... Nobody knows why. Nobody even knows for sure who the Demiurge was, or is. "Some say he created the world, or at least our little part of it. He called himself the Creator. Perhaps we were restrained because we threatened his power. Perhaps we broke some rule of his. Perhape the Demiurge is a human who felt threatened by his own species..." Yadda, the rest is KULT-specific. So imagine, in a twisted sort of way, that in making Adam and Lilith, God *reproduced*, and he created for them an Elysium, and entire world, in which was the Garden of Eden. Lilith, maybe wishing to be a creator like God, maybe wanting to be Equal, maybe using her innate human free will, got up and walked away without violating God's laws. If she wanted to be better then Adam, who is to say how far her ambitions really take her? She kept her immortality, and she learned to create outside of God's grace, for Lilith brings from her body the only Truly Demonic creatures in Creation, and the only creature which really mirrors mankind. (The "Demons", the rest of them, are really just Fallen Angels with a misplaced sense of ethics. A "demon" who gets a clue gets to be an angel again. No dice for the Lilim.) Adam got Eve. They violated God's rules of the game. In a fit of pique, God imprisoned them and their offspring in this giant machine called the Symphony, which takes their divine forces, breaks them apart, recycles them, clenses them in the Inferno on Death, and keeps them blind. Angels and Fallen Angels? They're just tools, to keep mankind in line, to keep an eye on what is going on, to make sure that Man doesn't get cocky. The War is really all about keep humans from finding out what is really going on, and letting them learn to become like Lilith - Immortal, Powerful, and Ultimately a Threat to God. All that and a bag of chips. That's my answer. Take it or leave it. * As an offside, the "mirror" allusion is some sort of mythological thing attributed to the Lilim I've found in a few references on the net. - - Em, Demon of Playing In Nomine Backwards. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 16:53:37 -0800 From: Tony Zbaraschuk Subject: IN> Off-planet Celestials > [Canon Request] Are there any Celestials on the moon? [Canon Request] Are there any Celestials on Alpha Centauri? ObGreatFictionPlug: C.S. Lewis' Space Trilogy (_Out of the Silent Planet_, _Perelandra_, _That Hideous Strength_) Earth is under Satan's influence, which ends at approximately the orbit of the Moon (yes, Lucifer really is the Prince of this world...); other worlds have their own angels (in various hierarchies). After his Fall (which happened here a long, long time ago), Lucifer tried to take Malacandra (the world we know as Mars), and was driven back; later (in _Perelandra_) he will try to take Venus (which _just_ has intelligent life arising, in a replay of the Garden of Eden scenario). Definitely worth reading. Tony Z Special Collections Librarian & Archivist E-mail: tzbarasc@lasierra.edu La Sierra University Et vocavit Deus, "Fiat lux!" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 17:54:41 -0700 (MST) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question > BTW weren't Beleth and Blandine lovers, companion, significant others >(take your pick)before the fall.This would seem to indicate a need for at >least companionship in celestials, if not love.There was a very powerful >bond between them.So if it Sure, but then, it's also noted that they were considered a major breakthrough in being the first of God's creations to love each other that way...there may be lines of Celestials that DO feel such urges (Servitors created by Blandine, Eli, Novalis, maybe Gabriel, on the Angelic side...Andrealphus and Beleth most likely on the demonic), and others (Lawrence, as usual, leaps to mind and prances about in a purple tutu) that don't. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 19:45:51 -0500 From: Jesse Rooney Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Souls (was Angelaki) >> I remebered what it was that made us better than angels. We are made in >> the image of God the inference being God did not make angels in His image. >> Prehaps this means that God, the Creator, made us creators too, we can make >> tools and clone sheep and all that whereas angels may just be uncreative or >> something. > >Kult, 2nd Edition, Chapter 2, "The Captivity of Man", page 8: > >In reference to man and Reality: > >"Mankind has not always been ignorant. Before the dawn of history, we had >senses that could percieve reality. We were born as gods, with power over (1). What is Kult? (2). I know nothing about Lilith. Was she made from Adam's side as well? Why is she not mentioned in the Bible? Why is she female? When did her story frist come to light? I sorta know about her role in the World of Darkness but neither White Wolf nor SJG explains these questions about her. (3). Are you quoting Kult (what ever it is) or do you belive it? I really stand behind what I said about God creating us in His image and all that. - -Jesse Ofanite of Tequila ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 19:21:17 -0600 (CST) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question > Sure, but then, it's also noted that they were considered a major >breakthrough in being the first of God's creations to love each other that >way...there may be lines of Celestials that DO feel such urges (Servitors >created by Blandine, Eli, Novalis, maybe Gabriel, on the Angelic >side...Andrealphus and Beleth most likely on the demonic), and others >(Lawrence, as usual, leaps to mind and prances about in a purple tutu) >that don't. If I weren't still sick, I'd have laughed my ass off at that. Thanks. Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Do not taunt Happy Fun Belial. http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | * * * c/o White Lightning Productions | "I love the sweet smell of http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | humiliation in the morning!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Kobal reaffirms himself http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 21:59:44 -0500 From: francis helie Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question At 03:02 97-11-23 EST, you wrote: > >>This would seem to indicate a need for at least companionship in >>celestials, if not love. > >I disagree. The presence of something does not imply a need of that thing. >The fact that my neighbor read mystery novels does not mean there is a need >to read mystery novels in my neighbor. > >The fact that two people (beings) are "together" in a strong emotionally >bonding way does not mean that there is a need for that to be. > Nice remark i probably coulsd have been clearer However as you say yourself it does indicate desire of one form or another. But i'll grant you that need was not the right word. Mea culpa:) >[IMHO] > >Of course, I would also say that the presence of a behavior in a being >indicates that said behavior is found desirable by the being. Such as >crack use for the crack addict and contra dancing for the contra dancing >fanatic. > >Are they "needs" and can we compare the relationship of "needs" and "desirable >behaviors" in people and animals to celestial creatures? > Well we are flying without instruments when it comes to celestial creatures. For rpg purposes i don't think we can do anything else but use the corporeal measuring stick when it comes to celestial.On a more metaphysical point of view i'd agree with you but who knows for sure? Maybe St-Thomas, i'll dust off my copy of the Summa Theologica.That still was an interesting point. Know Thyself and become what you are. Connais toi toi-même et deviens ce que tu es. Werner Jaeger (Paideia) The Philosopher King. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 22:13:27 -0500 From: francis helie Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question At 17:54 97-11-23 -0700, you wrote: > >> BTW weren't Beleth and Blandine lovers, companion, significant others >>(take your pick)before the fall.This would seem to indicate a need for at >>least companionship in celestials, if not love.There was a very powerful >>bond between them.So if it > Sure, but then, it's also noted that they were considered a major >breakthrough in being the first of God's creations to love each other that >way...there may be lines of Celestials that DO feel such urges (Servitors >created by Blandine, Eli, Novalis, maybe Gabriel, on the Angelic >side...Andrealphus and Beleth most likely on the demonic), and others >(Lawrence, as usual, leaps to mind and prances about in a purple tutu) >that don't. > That is an interesting concept.I can imagine an elohim of Yves asking a mercurian of Novalis what it means by I love you.Can something or some one understand an urge that it cannot feel?Still love on an individual basis seems IMHO to be part of God's masterplan...But then what isn't:) BTW Lawrence told me he resents the purple tutu crack.He does not prance, he gracefully jumps and he prefers strawberry pink and pistachio green. Know Thyself and become what you are. Connais toi toi-même et deviens ce que tu es. Werner Jaeger (Paideia) The Philosopher King. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 22:11:44 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Souls (was Angelaki) > >In reference to man and Reality: > > > >"Mankind has not always been ignorant. Before the dawn of history, we had > >senses that could percieve reality. We were born as gods, with power over > > (1). What is Kult? KULT is a horror role playing game from Sweden. It is based on the Kabbalah (to some extent), and goes quite far in describing God, Angels, Demons, Hell, and all sorts of other fun things. Great for giving PCs nightmares. > (2). I know nothing about Lilith. Was she made from Adam's side as well? > Why is she not mentioned in the Bible? Why is she female? When did her > story frist come to light? I sorta know about her role in the World of > Darkness but neither White Wolf nor SJG explains these questions about her. In "On the Kabbalah and it's Symbolism" by Gersholm Sholem, pg 163: "A similar example is the story that a woman was created before Eve, which may, it is true, have originated as an attempt to resolve the contradiction between Genesis 1:27, where man and woman were created at the same time, and 2:21, where Eve was made from Adam's rib. According to a midrash* which, to be sure, is not quoted in this form before the ninth or tenth century, a woman was first made for Adam from the earth (and not from his flank or rib). This was Lilith, who irritated the Lord of Creation by demanding equal rights. She argued: We [Adam and I] are equal, because we both come from the earth. Whereupon they quarreled, and Lilith, bitterly disgruntled, uttered the name of God and fled to embark on her demonic career." * This midrash is the Alphabet of Ben Sira. You can find it online fairly easily with a search for Lilith. Lilith was created from the dust of the ground, just like Adam. She just didn't like his additude and walked out. Personally, I'd happily give up a Geas/6 to learn the Tetragrammaton. > (3). Are you quoting Kult (what ever it is) or do you belive it? I really > stand behind what I said about God creating us in His image and all that. If you read the post, you'll see that I put the citation from where I quoted from the source book. Of course I don't believe it, it's the mythology of a role playing game. Or I should say, I believe it as much as I believe in vampires running around, doing drugs, and wearing lots of black. I just put forth a (very) twisted view of what happened, to maybe make up for the discrepancy with the "Why God made Humans in his own image and so weak" and "Why Humans are so important". I like things twisted. It makes the world interesting. I spew spooky stuff every once in a while. - - Em, The Demon of Playing In Nomine Backwards ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 22:18:50 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question > > BTW weren't Beleth and Blandine lovers, companion, significant others > >(take your pick)before the fall.This would seem to indicate a need for at > >least companionship in celestials, if not love.There was a very powerful > >bond between them.So if it > Sure, but then, it's also noted that they were considered a major > breakthrough in being the first of God's creations to love each other that > way...there may be lines of Celestials that DO feel such urges (Servitors > created by Blandine, Eli, Novalis, maybe Gabriel, on the Angelic > side...Andrealphus and Beleth most likely on the demonic), and others > (Lawrence, as usual, leaps to mind and prances about in a purple tutu) > that don't. > Cute imagry. One thing I'd like to point out, through all this arguing, is that it doesn't really matter if, in "canon", someone waves a hand and decides that Celestials cannot feel love, or cannot have relationships of an intimate manner. Because, when it comes down to it, it's human beings who are playing the game, and they DO. At least, last I checked. Therefore, when your players start really getting into it, well, things happen, at least in my experience. I think if a GM waves a hand and says, "Your angel can't fall in love with that NPC demon, because it says in this passage in the Bible that it doesn't happen," then the game loses something in a big way. But not my game, not my background. I'm done rantin' for now. :) - - Em, Workin out the mechanics for Demonic Unions. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 22:29:42 EST From: "Perry M. Lloyd" Subject: RE: IN> Song: Divine Touch (feedback please) >This is an idea a player of mine and myself worked up. I'd like to know >what you all think of it, and whether it's balanced or not. > >NEW SONG > >DIVINE TOUCH > While the demonic equivalent should be "Infernal Touch", most demons >continue to use the angelic name in the spirit of irony. These songs >involve channeling the raw power of the Symphony into another person, >for better or for worse. As the name implies, they all require contact, >and are somewhat risky--if the casting roll is ever failed with a check >digit of 6, the caster is Stunned for (10 minus his appropriate Forces) >rounds. The Symphony is not to be invoked lightly. "Channeling the raw power of the Symphony into another person,..." Channeling raw power seems to imply that you're moving power from one place and moving to another. Where does this power come from? The symphony you say? So, you channel raw symphony into people, creating massive disturbances and possibly more noise than thought possible? > * Corporeal - When channeled into flesh, the power of the universe is >a blinding and numbing experience. A hit to a specific part of the body >(arm, leg, head, chest) must be scored in combat. Roll versus Fighting >at -4; if the target's Dodge roll has a higher check digit, the touch >misses. The body part hit becomes numb and useless, effectively crippled >for rounds equal to the check digit of the Song roll. A head touch results >in total blindness instead, and a chest hit cuts the victim's Strength and >Agility in half (minimum 1). The victim is also Stunned for one round. > At the caster's will (and demons almost always choose this), the body >part may *appear* crippled and deformed. Arms shrivel, foreheads collapse >inward, etc. This has no additional game effect, but can be useful for >intimidation purposes while the Song lasts. Neat effect. :) Could this be achievd through channelling raw ESSENCE into someone? > * Ethereal - Invoking the Symphony within someone's mind is a truly awe- >inspiring experience. This Song can only be used on Mundanes (including >Soldiers); it opens up their mind to the Symphony, making them *aware*, >even beyond what a Soldier knows. Instantly, the subject knows and >understands all that the average Celestial does about angels, demons, the >Symphony, the War, etc. This can save a lot of explaning when recruiting >human allies. In addition, while the Song lasts, the human can notice >ripples in the Symphony with a normal Perception roll! The duration of the >song is the check digit in hours; at the end of the duration, the subject >can no longer detect Celestial disturbances. The caster must decide (when >casting) if the other effects (knowledge of the Symphony) are permanent, >or only last for the duration of the song. Note that enlighting more than a >chosen few mortals permanently is a good way to get the unwanted attention >of your Superior... I like that, helps skip through all that "I read the book, now I have to pretend I don't know anything in order to play a soldier" stuff. :) And wow, what a rush. Talk about a mind being blown... > * Celestial - When the raw spirit of All is channeled into a vessel, it >can force the spirit within to manifest. A Celestial affected by this Song >immediately assumes Celestial form! The Song may be resisted with a Will >roll; if the target's check digit is equal to or higher than the Song's, he >resists. Otherwise, he must assume Celestial form for rounds equal to the >check digit *plus* the target's Celestial forces. In addition, Kyriotates >and Shedim cannot repossess the host they were in for the check digit in >days. If the subject does not want to risk Celestial combat, his only >recourse is to ascend to Heaven or Hell. If used on a Mundane, this Song >merely fills them with feelings of wonder for a few moments. Kinda like having too much celestial/ethereal in one place at a time... > * Essence Requirement: 1 for the Corporeal version; 2 for the Ethereal >and Celestial versions. Well, if you _are_ channeling raw symphonic power, I'd aim a little higher, like between four and six. But, that's just me. > * Degree of Disturbance: The check digit plus the performer's total Forces >(not including the ripple caused by the target in the Celestial version). I don't know, if you're redirecting the symphony, I imagine it would create a LOT more disturbance than this. My question about this is, since this is redirecting the power of the symphony, what _is_ the power of the symphony? Is it GOD's will? It's it the divine plan? Would be in direct violation of God's plan, since it redirects it? - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd "I saw a monster come with speed, It's face of grimmest green. On human beings it used to feed, Most dreadful to be seen. -Lewis Carroll (from "Horrors"-1850) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 22:32:35 EST From: "Perry M. Lloyd" Subject: RE: IN> Song: Divine Touch (feedback please) From: Pee Kitty >This is an idea a player of mine and myself worked up. I'd like to know >what you all think of it, and whether it's balanced or not. > >NEW SONG > >DIVINE TOUCH > While the demonic equivalent should be "Infernal Touch", most demons >continue to use the angelic name in the spirit of irony. These songs >involve channeling the raw power of the Symphony into another person, >for better or for worse. As the name implies, they all require contact, >and are somewhat risky--if the casting roll is ever failed with a check >digit of 6, the caster is Stunned for (10 minus his appropriate Forces) >rounds. The Symphony is not to be invoked lightly. "Channeling the raw power of the Symphony into another person,..." Channeling raw power seems to imply that you're moving power from one place and moving to another. Where does this power come from? The symphony you say? So, you channel raw symphony into people, creating massive disturbances and possibly more noise than thought possible? > * Corporeal - When channeled into flesh, the power of the universe is >a blinding and numbing experience. A hit to a specific part of the body >(arm, leg, head, chest) must be scored in combat. Roll versus Fighting >at -4; if the target's Dodge roll has a higher check digit, the touch >misses. The body part hit becomes numb and useless, effectively crippled >for rounds equal to the check digit of the Song roll. A head touch results >in total blindness instead, and a chest hit cuts the victim's Strength and >Agility in half (minimum 1). The victim is also Stunned for one round. > At the caster's will (and demons almost always choose this), the body >part may *appear* crippled and deformed. Arms shrivel, foreheads collapse >inward, etc. This has no additional game effect, but can be useful for >intimidation purposes while the Song lasts. Neat effect. :) Could this be achievd through channelling raw ESSENCE into someone? > * Ethereal - Invoking the Symphony within someone's mind is a truly awe- >inspiring experience. This Song can only be used on Mundanes (including >Soldiers); it opens up their mind to the Symphony, making them *aware*, >even beyond what a Soldier knows. Instantly, the subject knows and >understands all that the average Celestial does about angels, demons, the >Symphony, the War, etc. This can save a lot of explaning when recruiting >human allies. In addition, while the Song lasts, the human can notice >ripples in the Symphony with a normal Perception roll! The duration of the >song is the check digit in hours; at the end of the duration, the subject >can no longer detect Celestial disturbances. The caster must decide (when >casting) if the other effects (knowledge of the Symphony) are permanent, >or only last for the duration of the song. Note that enlighting more than a >chosen few mortals permanently is a good way to get the unwanted attention >of your Superior... I like that, helps skip through all that "I read the book, now I have to pretend I don't know anything in order to play a soldier" stuff. :) And wow, what a rush. Talk about a mind being blown... > * Celestial - When the raw spirit of All is channeled into a vessel, it >can force the spirit within to manifest. A Celestial affected by this Song >immediately assumes Celestial form! The Song may be resisted with a Will >roll; if the target's check digit is equal to or higher than the Song's, he >resists. Otherwise, he must assume Celestial form for rounds equal to the >check digit *plus* the target's Celestial forces. In addition, Kyriotates >and Shedim cannot repossess the host they were in for the check digit in >days. If the subject does not want to risk Celestial combat, his only >recourse is to ascend to Heaven or Hell. If used on a Mundane, this Song >merely fills them with feelings of wonder for a few moments. Kinda like having too much celestial/ethereal in one place at a time... > * Essence Requirement: 1 for the Corporeal version; 2 for the Ethereal >and Celestial versions. Well, if you _are_ channeling raw symphonic power, I'd aim a little higher, like between four and six. But, that's just me. > * Degree of Disturbance: The check digit plus the performer's total Forces >(not including the ripple caused by the target in the Celestial version). I don't know, if you're redirecting the symphony, I imagine it would create a LOT more disturbance than this. My question about this is, since this is redirecting the power of the symphony, what _is_ the power of the symphony? Is it GOD's will? It's it the divine plan? Would be in direct violation of God's plan, since it redirects it? - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd "I saw a monster come with speed, It's face of grimmest green. On human beings it used to feed, Most dreadful to be seen. -Lewis Carroll (from "Horrors"-1850) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 21:35:39 -0600 (CST) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question >At 17:54 97-11-23 -0700, you wrote: >> >That is an interesting concept.I can imagine an elohim of Yves asking a >mercurian of Novalis what it means by I love you.Can something or some >one understand an urge that it cannot feel? Elohim have emotions, they just aren't allowed to act on emotion alone. >BTW Lawrence told me he resents the purple tutu crack.He does not prance, >he gracefully jumps and he prefers strawberry pink and pistachio green. Sir, you have obviously been misled by a Balseraph of Kronos. Laurence likes purple just fine, but he's still wearing a cape and bellbottoms and insists they're coming back in style. }:-{D Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | "Hmmm... Sugar Plum Fairies." http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | --- Haagenti at the ballet c/o White Lightning Productions | * * * * * * http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | "MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Laurence and Haagenti http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 97 22:50:18 -0500 From: David Wood Subject: Re: IN> An Awful Noise in the Name of the Lord Quoth "redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin)" on 11/23/97 6:21 PM... >At a -very- rough guess, I'd say about 250,000,000 on the day itself. (This >is deaths -directly- caused by Celestial acts, not indirectly or through >human tools.) That's about 1/5th of the day's deaths. So I like playing with numbers... 250 million x 15 (death toll + forces) = 3.75 billion. That, like they're saying above, doesn't count buidings or animals. Of which there'd probably be a bunch. A big, hairy, noisy bunch. 3.75B echo x 3 forces = 11.25B yards, or 6.39 million mile INCREMENTS on the minus to an average Celestial. Double that for the really good ones. The echo can automatically be picked up automatically by the average celestial at approximately 3.75x10^9 x 6.39x10^6 = 23.97x10^15 = 23.97 QUADRILLION miles. Double that for the really good ones. [Canon Question] How big is the freakin' UNIVERSE? >>On the plus side, everyone who can hear the Symphony (supposing it >>hasn't just broken under the strain) will know where Saminga is for >>the next decade or so... > >That's the thing, I couldn't find a reference anywhere to how long it takes >a disturbance to fade or not. My impression from the writeup in the IN >Rulebook was it tends to fade pretty quickly- otherwise you'd get more than >one shot to Percieve it. Yay! I happen to have my book next to the computer from earlier today! p. 55: Once a celestial perceives an especially loud note in the Symphony, he can hear its echoes for a number of minutes equal to his original base roll to detect it had he been standing beside it. The average celestial that heard Armageddon would hear it for 3,750,000,006 minutes, or about 7,134 years. That's an awful lot more than a decade. I sure hope Saminga brought *earplugs* to Armageddon... After a thrashing like that, you'd think both sides would stop spending Essence for a little while. According to my house rule, call it about 1783 years... >Still, when you're talking about a thrashing as severe as Armageddeon... Yes, one does so hate decimating the world and then finding out it's made an untidy mess. It's not unlike butchering an elk in your living room -- blood flies everywhere, and the big red splotchy stains tend to put off the cleaners no end. - -David http://www.bluecrab.org/members/dwood/ No, not THAT David. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 22:59:10 EST From: "Perry M. Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question From: francis helie >At 03:02 97-11-23 EST, you wrote: >> >>>This would seem to indicate a need for at least companionship in >>>celestials, if not love. >> >>I disagree. The presence of something does not imply a need of that thing. >>The fact that my neighbor read mystery novels does not mean there is a need >>to read mystery novels in my neighbor. >> >>The fact that two people (beings) are "together" in a strong emotionally >>bonding way does not mean that there is a need for that to be. >> >Nice remark i probably coulsd have been clearer >However as you say yourself it does indicate desire of one form or another. >But i'll grant you that need was not the right word. >Mea culpa:) Thank you. I do what I can, not much else. >>[IMHO] >> >>Of course, I would also say that the presence of a behavior in a being >>indicates that said behavior is found desirable by the being. Such as >>crack use for the crack addict and contra dancing for the contra dancing >>fanatic. >> >>Are they "needs" and can we compare the relationship of "needs" and "desirable >>behaviors" in people and animals to celestial creatures? >> >Well we are flying without instruments when it comes to celestial creatures. >For rpg purposes i don't think we can do anything else but use the corporeal >measuring stick when it comes to celestial.On a more metaphysical point of >view i'd agree with you but who knows for sure? Maybe St-Thomas, i'll dust off >my copy of the Summa Theologica.That still was an interesting point. Yeah, tell me about. The fact that I pretty much believe that there's really no way to know how an angel or demon thinks, or that a human could possibly know how to act with the sound of symphony ringing in her ears... It's made the game a lot more interesting. I really much prefer to think about playing soldiers than angels and demons. I can identify with a soldier pretty well, celestials are removed. They lack my sex drive, perhaps my drive to understand and make sense of the world, desire for material possessions. Well, it's a problem I have with this game. The personification of the Divine. On the other hand, humanity's been doing it for thousands of years. But, that's all because of how I perceive angels and demons. Of course, it's really hard to conceive of an angel in any other way than like ourselves, at least for me. I find it hard to conceive of anything intelligent to be unlike ourselves. I see it in popular culture. In starwars, most/all the sentient beings walk on two feet, the nonsentient ones don't. In Star Trek _everybody_ looks essentially human. But, that can attributed to costuming and make-up artists. I do like the possibilty that angels are shaped for maintain the symphony until they are made "self-aware" which immediately requires a seperation from the whole of existance. Who said that, Emily Dresner? There's a certain sadness when you realize that in order to accomplish your goals you must be seperated from others. It's the connection versus autonomy paradox: in order to really get anything done, you must autonomy, but in order to know _what_ to do, you must have connection to others. Anyway, that's enough dribble for now. :) - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd "I saw a monster come with speed, It's face of grimmest green. On human beings it used to feed, Most dreadful to be seen. -Lewis Carroll (from "Horrors"-1850) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 23:33:09 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> An Awful Noise in the Name of the Lord > >Which brings me to the question for Redneck - how many people died in > >Armageddon as a result of Celestial actions? Because I'm getting the > >feeling that other *galaxies* will have heard what happened. And I > >can just imagine the headaches it would cause. > > At a -very- rough guess, I'd say about 250,000,000 on the day > itself. (This is deaths -directly- caused by Celestial acts, not > indirectly or through human tools.) That's about 1/5th of the day's > deaths. That's a disturbance of about 3.75 billion; enough to be heard from 25 quadrillion miles away, automatically. And remember that each point above 12 that you have for a target, your auto-success CD is increased by one. So anybody on earth who was perceptive would have a CD in the billions. I can imagine more than one Celestial getting a bad Intervention on their Perception roll (you need to roll, even if it's autosuccess, for Interventions) and having their head explode from the noise. > >On the plus side, everyone who can hear the Symphony (supposing it > >hasn't just broken under the strain) will know where Saminga is for > >the next decade or so... > > That's the thing, I couldn't find a reference anywhere to how long > it takes a disturbance to fade or not. My impression from the > writeup in the IN Rulebook was it tends to fade pretty quickly- > otherwise you'd get more than one shot to Percieve it. You have to have heard the noise originally to hear the echoes. They last for a number of minutes equal to the target number of your roll, before it is modified for distance. So anybody who heard it would be hearing echoes for nearly 500 years. Now granted, Saminga wasn't the cause of *all* of those deaths, but... > Still, when you're talking about a thrashing as severe as > Armageddeon... Like I said, I wonder if the Symphony as we know it just broke... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "Have you ever noticed...whenever God needed a killing...he sent an angel. Have you ever wondered what a creature like that must be like? Your whole existence praising your God but always with one wing dipped in blood. Would you ever really want to see an angel?" - The Prophecy ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 23:33:09 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question > > Sure, but then, it's also noted that they were considered a major > >breakthrough in being the first of God's creations to love each other that > >way...there may be lines of Celestials that DO feel such urges (Servitors > >created by Blandine, Eli, Novalis, maybe Gabriel, on the Angelic > >side...Andrealphus and Beleth most likely on the demonic), and others > >(Lawrence, as usual, leaps to mind and prances about in a purple tutu) > >that don't. > > > That is an interesting concept.I can imagine an elohim of Yves > asking a mercurian of Novalis what it means by I love you. Can > something or some one understand an urge that it cannot feel? Still > love on an individual basis seems IMHO to be part of God's > masterplan...But then what isn't:) I'd point out that an Elohim *can* feel, but can't act on those feelings. Thus, they can fall in love, but can't save their love from a perilous fate without another reason... Ain't it sick? > BTW Lawrence told me he resents the purple tutu crack. He does not > prance, he gracefully jumps and he prefers strawberry pink and > pistachio green. I could actually see Laurence or one of his learning ballet (as Bruce Lee did) because it improves their kicks... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "Have you ever noticed...whenever God needed a killing...he sent an angel. Have you ever wondered what a creature like that must be like? Your whole existence praising your God but always with one wing dipped in blood. Would you ever really want to see an angel?" - The Prophecy ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 23:33:09 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question > - Em, Workin out the mechanics for Demonic Unions. The damn thing about you is I can't tell if you're kidding. In this case, I hope you are at least serious enough to start when people start screaming at you to do so. I personally would love tons of stuff on the way Hell's heirarchy works, and what demonic laws (de facto or de jure) exist to prevent all out war in Hell. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "Have you ever noticed...whenever God needed a killing...he sent an angel. Have you ever wondered what a creature like that must be like? Your whole existence praising your God but always with one wing dipped in blood. Would you ever really want to see an angel?" - The Prophecy ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 23:38:49 -0500 From: Steve Syrek Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #483 TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST!!!!! TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST!!!!! TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST!!!!! TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST!!!!!TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST!!!!! TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST!!!!!TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST!!!!! TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST!!!!!TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST!!!!! TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST!!!!!TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST!!!!! TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST!!!!!TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST!!!!! TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST!!!!!TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST!!!!! TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST!!!!!TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST!!!!! TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST!!!!!TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST!!!!! TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST!!!!!TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST!!!!! TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST!!!!!TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST!!!!! TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST!!!!!TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST!!!!! TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST!!!!!TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST!!!!! TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST!!!!!TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST!!!!! 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TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST!!!!! sorry for the spam but this is the fifth time I've asked, I've sent mail to the administrator several times with no response and I can't take all this mail anymore so for the love of god, take me off!! punish me for flooding if you want JUST TAKE ME OFF NOW!!!!!! unsubscribe won't recognize me because I'm registered as ssyrek@mail.idt.net but it thinks I'm ssyrek@idt.net Once again, whoever's in charge of this list, whoever's watching TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST!!!!! ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #484 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.