From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Nov 26 16:35:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA11007 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 16:35:15 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id QAA11173 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 16:13:32 -0600 Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 16:13:32 -0600 Message-Id: <199711262213.QAA11173@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #488 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, November 26 1997 Volume 01 : Number 488 In this digest: RE: IN> Song: Divine Touch (feedback please) RE: IN> Song: Divine Touch (feedback please) IN> Haagenti and Belial Re: IN> Haagenti and Belial IN> Celestial names and other questions Re: IN> Strange Question Re: IN> Strange Question Re: IN> Haagenti and Belial Re: IN> Strange Question Re: IN> Hell's Politics [REALLY REALLY LONG] Re: IN> Hell's Politics [REALLY REALLY LONG] Re: IN> Celestial names and other questions Re: IN> Hell's Politics [REALLY REALLY LONG] Re: IN> Hell's Politics [REALLY REALLY LONG] Re: IN> Strange Question Re: IN> Hell's Politics [REALLY REALLY LONG] Re: IN> Celestial names and other questions Re: IN> Celestial names and other questions Re: IN> Celestial names and other questions IN> TOP50 Re: IN> Strange Question Re: IN> TOP50 IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #487 Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #487 Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #487 Re: IN> Celestial names and other questions ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 17:13:42 -0500 (EST) From: Pee Kitty Subject: RE: IN> Song: Divine Touch (feedback please) On Sun, 23 Nov 1997, Perry M. Lloyd wrote: > "Channeling the raw power of the Symphony into another person,..." > > Channeling raw power seems to imply that you're moving power from one > place and moving to another. Where does this power come from? The > symphony you say? So, you channel raw symphony into people, creating > massive disturbances and possibly more noise than thought possible? I'll be honest with you...the reason behind the song was kind of a last minute thought. :) I meant that basically, you're focusing your celestial nature onto/into someone. Nothing THAT powerful...the effects of the song aren't that powerful, I guess I just worded it much too powerfully. Any better ideas? > > * Essence Requirement: 1 for the Corporeal version; 2 for the Ethereal > >and Celestial versions. > > Well, if you _are_ channeling raw symphonic power, I'd aim a little higher, > like between four and six. But, that's just me. Like I said, it SOUNDS impressive, but the effects aren't that big a deal. So I guess I need a less impressive sounding rationale. :) Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian (Married to Rev. Unibomber on 11/15/96 - be jealous ;) Meow! - -= Windows 95 =- A 32-bit patch for a 16-bit GUI shell running on top of an 8-bit operating system written for a 4-bit processor by a 2-bit company who cannot stand 1 bit of competition. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 23:11:23 EST From: "Perry M. Lloyd" Subject: RE: IN> Song: Divine Touch (feedback please) [Perry] > "Channeling the raw power of the Symphony into another person,..." > > Channeling raw power seems to imply that you're moving power from one > place and moving to another. Where does this power come from? The > symphony you say? So, you channel raw symphony into people, creating > massive disturbances and possibly more noise than thought possible? [Kitty] >I'll be honest with you...the reason behind the song was kind of a last >minute thought. :) I meant that basically, you're focusing your celestial >nature onto/into someone. Nothing THAT powerful...the effects of the song >aren't that powerful, I guess I just worded it much too powerfully. Any >better ideas? Ummmmm... [Perry] > > * Essence Requirement: 1 for the Corporeal version; 2 for the Ethereal > >and Celestial versions. > > Well, if you _are_ channeling raw symphonic power, I'd aim a little higher, > like between four and six. But, that's just me. [Kitty] >Like I said, it SOUNDS impressive, but the effects aren't that big a deal. >So I guess I need a less impressive sounding rationale. :) Okay, cool. Yeah, looks good to me. I was kinda purposefully being dense there, talking about tearing bits out of the symphony. If you're not really steering the mammoth river of the symphony into something else, then it doesn't sound quite as good but makes more sense. I wonder how you could explain it? Hmmm... maybe it has to do with sharing your perception or altering the other person so that they're completely sensitive to the symphony... Song of Symphony Sandpaper... ?:) - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd "I saw a monster come with speed, Its face of grimmest green. On human beings it used to feed, Most dreadful to be seen. -Lewis Carroll (from "Horrors"-1850) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 23:47:17 -0500 From: "Ehrbar" Subject: IN> Haagenti and Belial In the Marches, it says " Haagenti [about Belial]: Fire's hungry like me, right? It consumes almost as fast as I do. And fire's good for cooking - -- when there's time to really enjoy your meal. So I guess he's okay." However, in the main In Nomine rulebook, Haagenti is listed as "Hostile" to Belial, and Belial is listed as "Hostile" to Haagenti. So, in Canon, which way is it? Non-canonly, I already plan to go with the original rulebook, because that plays into the extended writeup I'm giving Haagenti. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 00:35:08 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Haagenti and Belial > So, in Canon, which way is it? Non-canonly, I already plan > to go with the original rulebook, because that plays into > the extended writeup I'm giving Haagenti. Which you are going to post to the list when you're done, right? Nudge, nudge... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 01:48:56 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: IN> Celestial names and other questions I was wondering about the origins of most of the names in In Nomine. If anybody has insight into the name of a particular Band, Choir, or Superior (be it from literal translations, religeous references, or insight into Derek's thought processes), I would like to hear it. For brevities sake, I have only included the names I have more specific questions about: - ------------------------------- Malakim - how is the term (which is hebrew for angel, IIRC) used differently from seraphim in Scripture? Jordi - I have heard rumors that he used to be called Alain (in the distant murky origins of IN). Why the name change? Balseraphs - I almost get the source on this, but is the bal- prefix made up, or is there some special meaning? Baal - I have seen references to ba'al, which (I think) was a term for the protector-god of a city-state in Bablyonian times. Is their a correlation? (also, references to ba'al shem, neurolinguistic wizards, in Snow Crash) Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 00:33:06 -0700 (MST) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question > >> BTW weren't Beleth and Blandine lovers, companion, significant others > > Sure, but then, it's also noted that they were considered a major > >breakthrough in being the first of God's creations to love each other that > >way...there may be lines of Celestials that DO feel such urges (Servitors > That is an interesting concept.I can imagine an elohim of Yves asking a > mercurian of Novalis what it means by I love you.Can something or some I think Yves's would definitely be among the ones to understand it, if not necessarily the ones who actually go out and DO it. I'd see the Elohim of Yves asking the Mercurian of Novalis, more, "So, precisely how does mushing lips together express this?" > BTW Lawrence told me he resents the purple tutu crack.He does not prance, > he gracefully jumps and he prefers strawberry pink and pistachio green. With his coloring? Egads. We've GOT to get that boy to a fashion consultant. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 00:45:22 -0700 (MST) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question > > >all the other Angels at all. You're connected through the Symphony. All > > >Angels all share the same 'song', even if it happens to be Mozart's > > >Requiem. > > >The sad part is when they Fall. Then they really become disconnected. > > The Fall, the ultimate disconnection. Yiurk, it never really hit me with > > such force till now just how painful that must be. Makes the Djinn make > > sense, in a way that's just too clear. So much anger, so much bitterness, > Now you begin to understand why death is preferable to Falling for many of > the Heavenly Host. It All Becomes Clear. Though on the whole, I don't think most of the Fallen actually REMEMBER the Symphony very well...my Balseraph of Fate with the Seraphim Attunement came up with the theory that the average Balseraph, for example, is like a man who's torn his eyes out in exchange for the power to, for about five minutes, make another person blind with him--and is confused enough to consider this somehow stronger than being able to see. The other Fallen are in similar quandaries...as he sees it, God set up the War to have two sides, and then very heavily rigged the odds. The demons, comparatively, are pathetic, because by their very nature, to be ON that side, you have to give up your primary strength. Seraphim lose the Truth, Cherubim their Loyalty, Ofanim their Momentum, Kyriotates their Selflessness, Elohim their Objectivity, and Mercurians their Friends... and in almost every case, for something that plucks you out of the grand Symphony and lets you instead effect one, tiny little piece of it. Bleah. {Djinn are so sullen simply because, on the subconscious levels where some of this is understood, they feel jilted. ALL they do is lose their connection. Everyone else gets an active, if limited, ability, while all Djinn get is to do what Cherubim do, but badly.} > I can imagine resistance, and a certain amount of trepidation at wanting > to "Redeem". Redeem from what? They never did anything wrong, they were And, 'course, beyond misinformation they may have picked up (or accurate information, for that matter) to suggest that Redemption is actually a bad thing...well, heck, it's hard for humans to want change. For Celestials, what with having things like their Choir/Band, their Superior's Word, and, if they have them, their own Words and Distinctions, branded on the very core of their being...I think it's probably a little harder for them. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:15:54 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Haagenti and Belial > However, in the main In Nomine rulebook, Haagenti is listed > as "Hostile" to Belial, and Belial is listed as "Hostile" > to Haagenti. > > So, in Canon, which way is it? Non-canonly, I already plan > to go with the original rulebook, because that plays into > the extended writeup I'm giving Haagenti. When I was writing up all that STUFF yesterday *postpost* I occasionally found myself utterly baffled at some of the attitudes of the Demon Princes. Some of them just don't make any sense at all, and aren't exactly explained. That was one of them. I have three theories on why this is: A) Belial is outright hostile to all of the Princes of Shal-Mari in general save Lilith, since everyone loves her. Or owes her. Maybe they made a bunch of rude comments about his clothing style one day or something. "Dahlink," Andre said, "but your HAIR." Or maybe he simply sees them all as weak. Haagenti is just returning the hostility. B) Haagenti hates bullies of all sorts, and it's possible that, as a familiar, he got screwed over by Belial or Belial's people. Belial is just too big to CHOMP, but he might be tasty with some horseradish somewhere down the line. C) Belial might have gotten into a fight with Kobal at some point, and fighting with Kobal means fighting with Haagenti. *shrug* Those are my best guesses. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:22:02 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question > > BTW Lawrence told me he resents the purple tutu crack.He does not prance, > > he gracefully jumps and he prefers strawberry pink and pistachio green. > With his coloring? Egads. We've GOT to get that boy to a fashion > consultant. > Unfortunately, they're all in Hell. There is no fashion industry in Heaven. :) - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 14:13:55 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> Hell's Politics [REALLY REALLY LONG] Well, I enjoyed that. Thanks ;-) Love Kobals pointless senior heirarchy *grin* Just a couple of things that I was wondering about... re: Lilim >Even in Heaven, they can out negotiate the >best of Marc's or Michael's Mercurians, using their natural advantage to >sense what is Needed instead of what people want. Ahh, here I disagree ;-) In hell where selfishness is king, people will always negotiate based on their own needs so Lilim have this really important negotiating role. In heaven, people may be negotiating based on other people's needs or on the need to 'reach a peaceful agreement which profits everyone' and I'm not sure a Lilim could really help much there other than to state the obvious ('Umm.. well you all seem to share a need to reach an agreement which profits everyone. Err....'), whereas some of Marc's servants can tell immediately how much every party is willing to 'spend' to reach an agreement and simply write up a treaty for them to all sign (but that only works when everyone is willing to co-operate and reach a win-win situation). re: Andre >Sleeping with Angels is the quickest way to draw the Prince's attention to >the positive, he sees bringing Angels down to the level of the Demons as a >positive advancement for everyone invovled. I don't really see how seducing an angel in a corporeal vessel is bringing it down to the level of the demons -- doesn't seem much worse than fraternising with the enemy in any other way to me. And in celestial form... well.. I'm not convinced that most of them really have the equipment, even if they had the interest. (Mercurians might, being as how they are modelled on humanity anyway). [Unless sleeping with Angels implies something more than straight sex, of course ;-) ] jo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 10:08:48 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Hell's Politics [REALLY REALLY LONG] > Well, I enjoyed that. Thanks ;-) Love Kobals pointless senior heirarchy > *grin* > No problem, although SOMEONE on the List owes me big. :) As for Kobal's pointless hierarchy, the people who actually run the place love it too. Really. Truly. All the time. That's why they walk around armed. "Oh, goddamnit. The Boss went off for a walk, and now we're stuck with the Marquis of Fake Flatulence. Can't we just lock the Prince in his manor for a while, or go convince him to go harrass Azzie, or something? We've got to go deal with Nybbas's people." I've done extensive work on Kobal's people for various reasons. They're a very weird, pragmatic group never without their exploding chewing gum. > Just a couple of things that I was wondering about... Okay. Go for it. > re: Lilim > >Even in Heaven, they can out negotiate the > >best of Marc's or Michael's Mercurians, using their natural advantage > to > >sense what is Needed instead of what people want. > > Ahh, here I disagree ;-) Which is good. Disagreement is good. But nothing I say is canon, or rather it's canon with a spin. > In hell where selfishness is king, people will > always negotiate based on their own needs so Lilim have this really > important negotiating role. In heaven, people may be negotiating based > on other people's needs or on the need to 'reach a peaceful agreement > which profits everyone' and I'm not sure a Lilim could really help much > there other than to state the obvious ('Umm.. well you all seem to share > a need to reach an agreement which profits everyone. Err....'), whereas > some of Marc's servants can tell immediately how much every party is > willing to 'spend' to reach an agreement and simply write up a treaty > for them to all sign (but that only works when everyone is willing to > co-operate and reach a win-win situation). I don't think I was totally clear, so I'll work through the concept here. I work in an enviroment where there are two seperate entities, what people WANT, and what people NEED. I often wish I had a Lilim (and not Daimon, because I don't want to deal with alot of self-abasement while I work, thanks) which could look into their eyes, and just come out and SAY what people Need, and what I Need, and we could skip an awful lot of bullshit. People will always say what they WANT (I want your system to have an embedded custom made object oriented database) and never what they NEED ( I need a computer with a word processor) to make them happy. It's a real pain, because people are greedy, especially when it comes to new toys and territory. This is very common in lots of places, if you think about it, and this exact additude is what runs the machinery of Hell. I see Hell as much the same way, especially when it comes to the upper echelons. People are greedy, and they want certain things, and people are only going to give concessions to what is fair and what people Need to be satisfied. Granted, this is not going to be particularly useful when working out problems between Imps or 7-Force demons (let them fight it out), but it's particularly useful when you have people who are in a political position that their deaths would be just a pain in the ass to everyone involved, Dukes, Earls, that sort of thing. As a tool in this manner, especially when the Lilim is an old Free, thus neutral and interested in keeping the obligations to a minimum, or Bound, who will have a predictible slant on things, they can be extremely useful. It's an ability that no other creature in creation HAS, and bringing one to the negotiating table keeps things under control. You can cut right through the Balseraph line of garbage or the Impudite artificial cheeriness, and make everyone upset but satisfied in the process. The problem is that the younger kids don't have enough experience, or are too busy experiencing life to want to sit down and work out deals between Andre and Saminga, and deal with the subsequent pissing match. Granted, everyone in Hell is rarely going to agree, and everyone is going to think they are being screwed. But that's the way it goes, and this is why it's called POLITICS. No one said it wasn't a messy process. Additionally, there is a built in montior for "fairness". The resonance for a Lilim is for a) Equality in a deal and b) Freedom that exists outside the deal itself. A compromise posed by a Lilim is not going to make everyone happy by any stretch of the imagination, but it's certainly going to be fair and evenly dealt on both sides. It's unique in a way that doesn't exist anywhere else. Am I a little clearer now? Only Marc's people can give the Lilim a run for their money in negotiations, and even then, Marc's people are running at a disadvantage. Yeah, Truth will get you through the contract and figure out the loopholes, but it won't make it fair. A Bright of Trade is just dangerous to have around, a best of both worlds dealing. > > > re: Andre > >Sleeping with Angels is the quickest way to draw the Prince's attention > to > >the positive, he sees bringing Angels down to the level of the Demons > as a > >positive advancement for everyone invovled. > > > I don't really see how seducing an angel in a corporeal vessel is > bringing it down to the level of the demons -- doesn't seem much worse > than fraternising with the enemy in any other way to me. And in > celestial form... well.. I'm not convinced that most of them really have > the equipment, even if they had the interest. (Mercurians might, being > as how they are modelled on humanity anyway). [Unless sleeping with > Angels implies something more than straight sex, of course ;-) ] Okay, Andre was the second to last guy I wrote up, and both of my hands were asleep. But seducing an angel for Lust and Lust only on both sides certainly spreads Andre's word in new and interesting ways. - - Em, spinnin those rules Backwards again. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 10:41:19 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Celestial names and other questions Nathaniel Eliot wrote: > Malakim - how is the term (which is hebrew for angel, IIRC) used > differently from seraphim in Scripture? I'm not sure what this question means. "Seraphim" is the name given to a particular kind of six-winged angel that appears in only one vision, if I recall correctly. The "-im" ending is a standard plural ending in Hebrew. I'm not sure if "malak" means "angel/ messenger" or "king" or "throne." I believe the malakim correspond to the choir called "thrones" in the hierarchy of Dionysius the Areopagite (translated into English), which is the most widespread angel hierarchy, but by no means the only one. > Balseraphs - I almost get the source on this, but is the bal- prefix > made up, or is there some special meaning? > > Baal - I have seen references to ba'al, which (I think) was a term > for the protector-god of a city-state in Bablyonian times. Is their > a correlation? (also, references to ba'al shem, neurolinguistic > wizards, in Snow Crash) "Baal" means "lord," not necessarily in a specially religious sense. "Ba'al Shem" means "Lord of the Name" in Hebrew, and there was a great Jewish scholar who was given the epithet "Ba'al Shem Tov," "Lord of the Good Name." In the Bible, references to "Ba'al" refer to Marduk, the god of kingship and storm (rather like Zeus), who ruled the local pantheons that Israeli monotheism competed with. This was because Marduk's own worshippers usually just called him "the lord" ("baal") just as modern monotheists will often call God, or the way ancient Athenians would call Athena "the Maiden" rather than use her name. The names "Beelzebub" and "Belial" also contain the "baal" element, with different drifts on the vowels, I think. I don't know where the term "balseraph" originates, but it probably means "seraph of Baal" in contrast to a seraph of God. In this case, "Baal" would be identified with Satan or taken as a global power of Hell, not as departmentalized as the figure in IN. Or it might mean "lord seraph," indicating an infernal claim that these were "new and improved" versions of the old heavenly seraph. When I first saw "balseraph" in the lists of bands, I more than half expected to see "balcherub" and a few other "bal-" bands, too. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 11:06:12 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Hell's Politics [REALLY REALLY LONG] A fun read. Thank you. You could throw in a few "My Lord's" as forms of address, to give some variation to "Master." Wouldn't "Mistress" be a better form of address for Beleth, since she consistently manifests as feminine? Or "My Lady" or some such? *ALL* of Valefor's servitors know whether he's really Janus or not? Wouldn't that be a tremendous security leak? One disaffected servitor, or one rival Prince snagging a minor flunkey and squeezing, and the secret is out. I'd expect that no one knows but Valefor and Janus, plus maybe a few ultra-high-ranking sidekicks and maybe someone like Yves or Asmodeus or Lucifer (but Dominic explicitly does not know). Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 11:26:28 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Hell's Politics [REALLY REALLY LONG] > You could throw in a few "My Lord's" as forms of address, to give > some variation to "Master." Yer right, I could. > > Wouldn't "Mistress" be a better form of address for Beleth, since > she consistently manifests as feminine? Or "My Lady" or some such? Yep. My bad. Go ahead and make that change. > > *ALL* of Valefor's servitors know whether he's really Janus or not? > Wouldn't that be a tremendous security leak? One disaffected > servitor, or one rival Prince snagging a minor flunkey and squeezing, > and the secret is out. I'd expect that no one knows but Valefor and > Janus, plus maybe a few ultra-high-ranking sidekicks and maybe > someone like Yves or Asmodeus or Lucifer (but Dominic explicitly > does not know). I dunno. The people I assume who REALLY know are Janus/Valefor, his highest rated flunkies, and maybe Lucifer himself. I suspect that his servitors gossip, and pass rumors back and forth. It's no secret that Kronos and Asmodeus SUSPECT something, and they just happily embellish on the facts. If you ask a servitor of Theft, they'll do exactly what I said, which is smile cheerily and borrow some of your belongings on a permenant basis. On the other hand, Asmodeus does NOT know, no way, no how. Look at the mechanics. If he did, it would all be settled. If he knew Valefor was Janus, Asmodeus would be working actively to get the guy removed and Valefor would have everyone as "enemy", except maybe Kobal who would be too happy to do anything about it. If Asmodeus knew they were seperate, then he wouldn't have much of an excuse to be after the guy, except out of general spite. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 12:26:59 -0500 From: "Thomas Davidson" Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question - ---------- > From: Emily Dresner > To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question > Date: Wednesday, November 26, 1997 8:22 AM > > > > > BTW Lawrence told me he resents the purple tutu crack.He does not prance, > > > he gracefully jumps and he prefers strawberry pink and pistachio green. > > With his coloring? Egads. We've GOT to get that boy to a fashion > > consultant. > > > > Unfortunately, they're all in Hell. There is no fashion industry in > Heaven. :) > Oh, I dunno. I can just imagine one of Larry's own Mercurian Servitors saying with a barely detectable smirk, "Uh, Master, I think we *really* need to talk . . ." ;) (of course, he should really make sure that his Life Insurance Policy is paid up. It's always handy to have a Servitor of Marc handy for just this reason). :) Just a thought. :) Thomas Davidson tdavidso@suffolk.lib.ny.us MUSIC: Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Rolling Stones, Rush, Jimi Hendrix GAMES: Champions (old and new), In Nomine, Nephilim TV: The X-Files, The Simpsons, Superman, The Tick, The Animaniacs OTHER: Religion, Philosophy, mysticism, the runes, the Tarot, writing ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 17:52:40 +0000 From: "David Chart" Subject: Re: IN> Hell's Politics [REALLY REALLY LONG] - --On Wed, Nov 26, 1997 11:06 am -0500 "Earl Wajenberg" wrote: > *ALL* of Valefor's servitors know whether he's really Janus or not? *ALL* the Balseraphs certianly do. They'll explain the evidence to you extremely convincingly. The only problem is deciding which half to believe. (Lucifer *knows* he'll win the War, right? So we're safe, right? ;-) ) David Chart Seraph of Destiny ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 17:59:41 +0000 From: "David Chart" Subject: Re: IN> Celestial names and other questions - --On Wed, Nov 26, 1997 1:48 am +0000 "Nathaniel Eliot" wrote: > If anybody has insight into the name of a particular Band, Choir, or > Superior (be it from literal translations, religeous references, or > insight into Derek's thought processes) Well, Furfur was a demon who could get women to sleep with you. I have the ritual for summoning him if anyone's interested. (No kidding. It's in Latin, though.) I really don't know how he got associated with Hardcore. People might want to look at "Forbidden Rites" by Richard Kieckhefer. It's an edition of and introduction on a demon-summoning manual from the fifteenth century, and it has names and appearances for some demons, including Furfur. It also has reproductions of all the magic circles you have to draw, and the edition is *complete*... It's also 15UKP, and in paperback. (Oh yes, and it's a serious scholarly work, and *he* doesn't need to include disclaimers.) David Chart Seraph of Destiny ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:13:46 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Celestial names and other questions On Wed, 26 Nov 1997, David Chart wrote: > Well, Furfur was a demon who could get women to sleep with you. I have the > ritual for summoning him if anyone's interested. (No kidding. It's in Latin, > though.) I really don't know how he got associated with Hardcore. You're kidding me. Furfur is the name of an actual, historical demon? I thought the good people at SJG were just having a bad imagination day when they came up with him. Anyway, more details would be appreciated on the "historical" Furfur. I don't particularly want to see the ritual just more data on him, since he is soon to become a regular villian in my campaign. If you don't mind that is. Rich Gant ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 18:52:46 GMT From: maya@tcp.co.uk (GR Cogman) Subject: Re: IN> Celestial names and other questions >On Wed, 26 Nov 1997, David Chart wrote: > >> Well, Furfur was a demon who could get women to sleep with you. I have the >> ritual for summoning him if anyone's interested. (No kidding. It's in Latin, >> though.) I really don't know how he got associated with Hardcore. > >You're kidding me. Furfur is the name of an actual, historical demon? I >thought the good people at SJG were just having a bad imagination day when >they came up with him. >Rich Gant Actually, Furfur also shows up in James Blish's _The Devil's Day_, during a mass summoning from Hell, along with Valefor, Andrealphus, and others. Let me see if I can find some references. (I got the book recently, ergo my sudden wisdom.) ... "VALEFOR, powerful duke, obey me!" A black-maned lion, again with three heads, the other two human, one wearing the cap of a hunter, the other the wary smile of a thief. It passed in a rush, without even a wind to mark its going. ... "FURFUR, great earl, obey me!" This angel appeared as a hart and was past them in a single bound, its tail streaming fire like a comet. ... ...the demons flashed by in nightmare parade... ANDREALPHUS, a peacock appearing amid the noise of many unseen birds... - --- Maya, Elohim of Eli in service to Blandine maya@tcp.co.uk - -- "There are those who say that wizards are subject to temptations and addictions beyond the understanding of ordinary men: the addiction to shape-changing, or to meditation under the influence of certain herbs and conditions of the stars; the obsession with knowledge, and the development of power. Yet this is not so. Temptation is temptation, obsession is obsession, and choice is choice." - Isar Chelladan, Precepts of Wizardry. -- "Dog Wizard", Barbara Hambly. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 20:11:31 GMT From: kaemaril@magus.powernet.co.uk (Martin Goodson) Subject: IN> TOP50 I'll just delurk briefly if I may for a slightly off-topic announcement. Don't worry, it is a small one, honest :) Anyway... Over on rec.games.frp.misc I'm currently running a Top 50 RPG survey. This is to see (as much as possible, it's not going to be perfect but what the heck?) how things have changed since issue 14 of the late, lamented ARCANE magazine released their top 50. If you don't already look at the Usenet group rec.games.frp.misc can I encourage you to do so? It's a lawless place, but a fun one :) Oh, and while you're there, why not vote in my survey? You should find the article, if not search Deja News. If you're already an avid rec.games.frp.misc reader, could you vote in my survey? Please? The article I posted goes into further details. I won't post it here, might as well save bandwidth somehow :) Response so far has been good, with just under 80 votes since Sunday morning. In Nomine has received one or two votes, btw :) obIN: Anyone know the name of the Demon whose word is spam? (and I'm not talking the food product. Let's face it, somebody infernal has got to be to blame for this little gem ... :) ) Martin Goodson (Kaemaril@magus.powernet.co.uk) 'I do not like insects. I do not like little brown things with eight legs. I do not like anything with eight legs ... well, except for the Vinzini, but only because they are terrible at cards' - Londo Mollari, 'Sic Transit Vir', Babylon 5. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 15:31:40 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question > > > > BTW Lawrence told me he resents the purple tutu crack.He does not > prance, > > > > he gracefully jumps and he prefers strawberry pink and pistachio > green. > > > With his coloring? Egads. We've GOT to get that boy to a fashion > > > consultant. > > > > > > > Unfortunately, they're all in Hell. There is no fashion industry in > > Heaven. :) > > > > Oh, I dunno. I can just imagine one of Larry's own Mercurian Servitors > saying with a barely detectable smirk, "Uh, Master, I think we *really* > need to talk . . ." ;) (of course, he should really make sure that his > Life Insurance Policy is paid up. It's always handy to have a Servitor of > Marc handy for just this reason). :) > > Just a thought. :) See? This is what the Bright Lilim are for. "Now, lessee... we can get Laurence a very nice ensemble of leather, silk and lace which will go very well with his eyes and look properly military as he requires. But the Mercurians are really pushing to see some of the Malakim regulars in the leather and silk as well. Now, we can outfit your Lord AND one of his regiments, if the terms are met." You need to go send down your Redemption squads. Get crackin. :) - - Em, Azzie's Own Fashion Consultant. "The red goes so well with your horns, Master." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 15:36:33 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> TOP50 > > obIN: Anyone know the name of the Demon whose word is spam? (and I'm not talking > the food product. Let's face it, somebody infernal has got to be to blame for > this little gem ... :) ) > Malphas. What other little piece of almost completely harmless, easily deletable mail can get people so hot and bothered and at each other's throats so fast? - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 16:06:40 +0000 From: "a superhero named tony" Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #487 > Anyone else ever felt that God must be really, really bored. The thought > that inspired this came from my .sig file. I mean, if you were omniscient > nothing would bring you pleasure, knowing everything and whatnot. Is it > any wonder that he retracted from the universe; spending all of his time > sorting stuff out? Not a gift I would want. > > - --"I see the end in every beginning. I hear > the last word echo in the first. I do not desire, > or dream, or destroy. I do not despair, or delight. > I know." > -Destiny. "Destiny: A Chronicle of Death's Foretold" > Actually, I always kind of pictured God's omniscience in IN to be kind of like Destiny. He knows what has, is, and will happen, but it isn't always, quite accurate. As Delerium said about Destiny, "there are paths outside your garden", etc. Destiny only knows 100% what will happen after the fact. Much like God only knows what's going on after humans use that pesky free will. BTW, I forget who said differently, but Sandman is THE comic book of In Nomine. If for no other reason, Neil Gaiman had about 6 mentions in the IN bibliography. Later, Charlie V. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 16:31:25 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #487 Charlie V wrote: > BTW, I forget who said differently, but Sandman is THE comic book of > In Nomine. If for no other reason, Neil Gaiman had about 6 mentions > in the IN bibliography. Also, it's a great model for GMs to use for roleplaying Archangels and Princes, or for anyone to use playing Word-bound, since "Sandman," like In Nomine, is a modern treatment of personifications. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 16:04:06 -0600 From: tom timberlake Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #487 a superhero named tony wrote: > > > Anyone else ever felt that God must be really, really bored. The thought > > that inspired this came from my .sig file. I mean, if you were omniscient > > nothing would bring you pleasure, knowing everything and whatnot. Is it > > any wonder that he retracted from the universe; spending all of his time > > sorting stuff out? Not a gift I would want. > > > > - --"I see the end in every beginning. I hear > > the last word echo in the first. I do not desire, > > or dream, or destroy. I do not despair, or delight. > > I know." > > -Destiny. "Destiny: A Chronicle of Death's Foretold" > > > Actually, I always kind of pictured God's omniscience in IN to be > kind of like Destiny. He knows what has, is, and will happen, but it > isn't always, quite accurate. As Delerium said about Destiny, "there > are paths outside your garden", etc. Destiny only knows 100% what > will happen after the fact. Much like God only knows what's going > on after humans use that pesky free will. > Funny, that isn't how I see it at all. God sees, IMHO, all the infinite multipaths of maybe, all the way to the end of every one. He doesn't get bored because it.... amuses [?] Him to see what choices we [humans] actually do end up taking. This also explains why bad things happen with a good God... in order to set up a maze that leads to the best of all possible worlds, branchings that allow such things as childhood cancer, the Fall, and the Apple also had to be built into the maze, and we took [or were lead down, depending on whether you blame the serpent for tempting Eve with the Apple, or blame Eve for choosing to listen to the serpent {similar comments about Eve, the Apple, and Adam}] a less than optimal path to the maze's end. Either that or God is a GM improv-ing wildly as His players [us humans] make unexpected choices. Needless to say, [but I will say it anyway] the all-knowing maze architect is a much more reassuring God to worship. tom timberlake [yes, I was a religion major at one time, why do you ask?] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 17:09:48 EST From: "Perry M. Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Celestial names and other questions "Nathaniel Eliot" wrote: > >I was wondering about the origins of most of the names in In Nomine. >If anybody has insight into the name of a particular Band, Choir, or >Superior (be it from literal translations, religeous references, or >insight into Derek's thought processes), I would like to hear it. >For brevities sake, I have only included the names I have more >specific questions about: > >------------------------------- >Malakim - how is the term (which is hebrew for angel, IIRC) used >differently from seraphim in Scripture? Earl Wajenberg wrote: > The "-im" ending is a standard >plural ending in Hebrew. I'm not sure if "malak" means "angel/ >messenger" or "king" or "throne." I believe the malakim correspond >to the choir called "thrones" in the hierarchy of Dionysius the >Areopagite (translated into English), which is the most widespread >angel hierarchy, but by no means the only one. Well, the Yiddish word for KING is Malakh (plural Malkhm) - and the word has distinctly Hebrew roots. (The spelling is off, I've forgotten the established english spelling.) At least, that's how the word was translated in a particular text; it may not be the only meaning of the word. - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd "I saw a monster come with speed, Its face of grimmest green. On human beings it used to feed, Most dreadful to be seen. -Lewis Carroll (from "Horrors"-1850) ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #488 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. 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