From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Dec 8 14:18:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA31377 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 14:18:31 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id NAA23370 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 13:59:42 -0600 Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 13:59:42 -0600 Message-Id: <199712081959.NAA23370@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #504 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, December 8 1997 Volume 01 : Number 504 In this digest: Re: IN> An Awful Noise in the Name of the Lord (was Re: Achmetha) Re: IN> Combat, Strength, and Damage Re: IN> Fluff Re: IN> Fluff: In Nomine Movie Trailers Re: IN> Ideas from the comic shop. Re: IN> Fluff Re: IN> Math, WOD and (was IN> Combat, Strength, and Damage) Re: IN> Youth Groups Re: IN> Kyriotates in Celestial Form Re: IN> An Awful Noise in the Name of the Lord (was Re: Achmetha) IN> joining the mailing list? IN> Movies Re: IN> Ideas from the comic shop. IN> American TV Re: IN> American TV IN> Fluff: Cthulhu and Haagenti (Was "Angelaki" a VERY long time ago) Re: IN> Movies Re: IN>More Shedite stuff... Re: IN> Combat, Strength, and Damage IN> [DV Fluff!] Scrunch & Archie Re: IN> Math, WOD and (was IN> Combat, Strength, and Damage) IN> Not such [FLUFF]: Madonna and celestial tampering IN> INO & Popular Entertainment Re: IN>More Shedite stuff... IN> [FLUFF] Red Dwarf/"Intellectual" shows Re: IN> Math, WOD and (was IN> Combat, Strength, and Damage) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 09:20:59 -0500 From: johnk@lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> An Awful Noise in the Name of the Lord (was Re: Achmetha) On Dec 4, 12:36pm, gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> An Awful Noise in the Name of the Lord (was Re: Achmetha) > > > On Thu, 4 Dec 1997, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > > > Does anyone think this is a big problem? I've been > > allowing Kyriotates to stay in celestial form as long as > > they wanted to (as long as they had another host, of course). > > That's what I've been doing as well. The one Kyriotate in my group > typically possesses the Malakim's pet parrot, and then keeps his other > Forces free for emergencies. It's amazing how versitile he is like that. A pet parrot? What kind of phrases does the pet parrot of a _Malakim_ pick up? "Prepare to die demon scum! Rawk!" or "Polly wants a submachine gun to destroy my enemies! " =) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 09:27:34 -0500 From: johnk@lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> Combat, Strength, and Damage > But what's canon? I'm still not convinced that the Strength rating has to > do with how strong you are. It _does_ relate to how much damage you can > take, and how often you win hit someone in combat, however, according to > the text, I have found nothing that tells me that it reflects muscle mass, how > much can be lifted or how easily bars can be bent. > > I guess I'm *not* willing to *not* see a distinction between Strength and > Agility. The little kid who connects often, but not with as much force as the > Giant, who can kill you with a bear-hug, but is too slow to be terribly effective. Believe it or not, I've had this discussion with the INgods already (with reference to VERY strong things like animals). The easiest solution I came up with was letting damage be based on Power, not Strength. So very large creatures might have a low Strength (basic physical ability to use muscles) but have a very high Power (to do more damage when they _do_ hit). Fer example that elephant might only have a 4 strength (as much as that boggles the imagination) but its mighty feet might have a Power of +7. Under that system, however, you have to define lifting capacity as well. Elephants can obviously lift a lot! So I threw in a fillip to fix that as well. Each basic body size has a lifting capacity. Humans have *1, smaller creatures would have much less, larger ones much more. None of this is Canon, but I hope it helps until we get a canon answer that everyone can live with. (All of this has to be decided before we finish the expanded writeup on Jordi! Lots of animal rules in that book, I'm willing to bet!) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 09:30:16 -0500 From: johnk@lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> Fluff On Dec 5, 3:31pm, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> Fluff > I suppose "band" was picked to keep the musical theme running. Yes, I believe so. Then again, have you ever heard the Charlie Daniel's Band song, "A Devil Went Down to Georgia"? "...A band of demons joined in and it sounded something like this..." - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 09:33:25 -0500 From: johnk@lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> Fluff: In Nomine Movie Trailers > > Windy crouched behind something, to Matt: "Hey, love conquers all, right? > Hand me another grenade." > The rest was good... REALLY good... but this last line did it for me! =) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 10:08:49 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Ideas from the comic shop. Shadowcat wrote: > First was a graphic novel version of Clive Staple Lewis' book "The > Screwtape Letters" (ISBN 0-8407-6261-5) with an introuction by Neil > Gaiman. {I hadn't known that Gaiman and Pratchett had won a British > awqard for religious fiction for 'Good Omens"}. It is an abridged > version, but still a lot of fun. I am slightly boggled by this. "The Screwtape Letters" is not really a "novel" so much as a series of essays fictionalized by being cast in the form of advice from a senior devil to a junior one on temptation duty. There is an implied plot, but not much: the human victim succumbs, for a while, to temptations of superficial worldiness, but then snaps out of it, has a spiritual reawakening, falls in love with the Right Girl (news so bad as to make Screwtape lose control of his shape), and ultimately slips through the devils' claws by the simple expedient of dying in the London Blitz. (The book was written during WWII.) I guess that's enough plot for a short graphic novel, especially if padded with cuts to scenes in the infernal regions. I'm afraid I keep picturing this as a Chick Comic, at which Lewis would no doubt have shuddered. However, given how fussy the Lewis Estate is about quality control, I'm quite sure it is NOT like a Chick Comic. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 10:28:39 -0500 From: johnk@lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> Fluff > > (Have you *seen* the Barbie commercials where they have her moving, > sort of like stop-motion stuff? It's just a little "off" and is > *creepy*!) Well, my favorite is the car commercial one, but I've also seen the toy commercials where barbie is walking around with girls. It looks very, very odd. ;) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 10:32:33 -0500 From: johnk@lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> Math, WOD and (was IN> Combat, Strength, and Damage) > Wait... but average stat is 4 for humans, at least in the spheres they > use on a regular basis. And if average skill is 2 then that makes > average total skill 6. That yields, what? Probability of success of > 50%? I'm guessing. The chances of getting a 6 or less on 2d6 is 5/12. The chances for a 7 or less are 7/12. There's really no point where it equals exactly 50%. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 10:35:07 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Youth Groups Clinton Lutz asks about the suitability of IN for a church youth group. I would say it could be quite suitable, *but* -- Since you are familiar with role-playing games, you must know that the GM has a lot to do with setting the tone. This is more than usually true with IN, which was designed to allow a wide variety of approaches. It is designed to allow comic play, dark and angst-ridden play, or "cinematic" action-adventure play, and the players can play angels OR devils (though initial surveys indicate people prefer to play angels by a 3-to-1 margin) OR mundane humans OR non-mundane humans ("soldiers of God" or "soldiers of Hell") working with celestials. So, although IN has a very specific topic, it is more than usually flexible in range of approaches. And then, of course, the GM can always edit to suit. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 10:38:11 -0500 From: johnk@lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> Kyriotates in Celestial Form On Dec 6, 8:43pm, Peter Frederick wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> Kyriotates in Celestial Form > At 12:40 AM 6/12/97 -0500, you wrote: > >>>>My fix was to let them have their Celestial form around indefinately, > >but not to let them move it from adjacent to the Host from which it was > >generated. This means they can see Celestial things better and do > >Celestial combat, but can't walk through walls and posses Hosts inside > >buildings. My Kyrios didn't complain [too much :) ].<<< > > > >David replied > >That takes away from their multiplicity, though. > > Nope they can still possess multiple things, they just have to get one Host > to where it can see (or otherwise sense if they are willing to take > targeting penalties) their target Host. What it does is stop them > generating an extra "free ranging" point of view that you can't stop short > of having celestial proof force fields everywhere. Celestial forms on earth are one of the ways of asking--no *begging*--someone to do soul hits to you. Any player that overuses this trick is gonna find out that a lot of demons get annoyed by Kyriotates (and Shedim...) and wouldn't mind doin' one dirty given the slightest provocation. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 10:54:36 -0500 From: johnk@lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> An Awful Noise in the Name of the Lord (was Re: Achmetha) > Okay, so I'm having a hard time seeing why he can possess ONE > Vessel owned by his friend, but still can't form one of his own. For one, > it's a cheap way around Kyrio's not having Vessels...all he needs is a pal > with a spare, and he can use that. It's not like it even inconveniences > their pal much, since he just pops back from the Marches and uses his > other one. More importantly, though, it just doesn't make -SENSE-. If > Kyriotates can inhabit Vessels, there's no logical reason given why only a > couple of Superiors let them form limited types of their own. It's only > rational if, like the Shedim, Kyrios are just fundamentally Celestial > creatures who DO, as it's presented in the book, have to be specially > empowered for that sort of thing. Some Superiors do allow Kyriotates to have vessels of their own. That's a function of the Superior, however, and they are allowed to 'break' the normal Choir/Band rules. Kyriotates/Shedim basic nature is to NOT have a vessel of their own. It takes special effort to give them one. That special effort means that only a few Superiors natural resonance allow those tricks. I imagine that ANY Superior, if they really, really had to, could give a vessel to a Kyrio/Shedite servitor. > There's also the problem that having the Vessel's Forces be > determined by the owning Celestial, who may or may not even be around or > care (especially if there's a Body Bag involved, though that scenario > still amuses me), doesn't make much sense in the game worldview. For a > Human to gain Forces is a rather fundamental thing; a 6-Force Human rarely > occurs naturally, and however it happens, it makes them something > -different-. They suddenly have the potential to learn Songs and perceive > the Symphony, whether they're a Soldier, Sorceror, Dream Warrior, or just > weird. Celestials, on the other hand, gain Forces as a matter of course, > without any intrinsic change of nature, let alone having to trade in all > their Vessels for new ones that can support their new level of Forces. The vessels owned by a celestial are a part of the celestial and change when they do. Mortals, who have bodies rather than vessels, work by different rules. > AND, I've yet to see any rationale given for -WHY- a Kyrio can do > it and a Shedim can't. For animals, it makes sense..among other things, > you can probably only compact -down- so far, and only Kyrios can split off > the pieces for it. But for Vessels...why? So long as they've got the > Forces, what's the big difference? All anyone's given on this is those > couple of obscure sentences out of the book, which explains where, not > why. The tack I'm taking (and this is well after the original text was written) is the Shedim really are broken Kyriotates. They have lost a certain spark, a certain flexibility. They can only take over humans, it's true, and only one at a time at that. But in return, their innate selfishness allows them to draw on their host's emotions and memories--This is not an advantage to be brushed off lightly! So Shedim have a lot more restrictions that Kyriotates, but what they do do, they do very, very well. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 14:46:48 +0000 From: dominic belisario Subject: IN> joining the mailing list? how do i join? my name is Simon Westfield e-mail :deviant@thepentagon.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 11:07:50 -0500 From: johnk@lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: IN> Movies On Dec 7, 2:38pm, Jesse Rooney wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> [DV Fluff!] Scrunch & Archie > >-David (who must have fallen victim to the Balseraph of "Starship > >Troopers", 'cause I liked that movie despite it's gaping holes...I'm still > >having problems with "Aliens IV", OTOH.) It would've been nice if the screenplay and art director had been chosen from among those that LIKED Heinlein. IMO Verhoven (sp?) is a somewhat-talented hack that got a few chuckles by mocking his betters. But since we're on the subject of movies (and In Nomine in case I forgot what mailing list I was on), what kind of focus would y'all like to see in an IN movie? There are several very BAD ways to do a movie... Why there should be a limited number of Superiors in an IN movie ================================================================ 1. You can kill a plot with too many characters (anybody seen MKII?) 2. You need a few strong main characters to focus on 3. Most viewers won't know jack about IN so this would be a VERY bad time to introduce them to millinea of celestial politics 4. ...you can come up with the rest I'm sure... So, since that's been decided, which ones would make for a stronger movie. Personally, I think even the ones included should be more minor characters and it should focus on more earthy celestials (much like a typical IN campaign), but most every celestial on earth serves _someone_. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 10:14:09 -0600 (CST) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Ideas from the comic shop. >Shadowcat wrote: > >I guess that's enough plot for a short graphic novel, especially if >padded with cuts to scenes in the infernal regions. I'm afraid >I keep picturing this as a Chick Comic, at which Lewis would no doubt >have shuddered. However, given how fussy the Lewis Estate is about >quality control, I'm quite sure it is NOT like a Chick Comic. It's not. Each letter can run as much as 3-4 pages with the illos, which are - -not- framed but rather splay out across page and two-page spreads. The art is very cartoony and graphic at the same time (the last image is of Screwtape having just devoured his nephew). A very good adaptation, except when I read it it looked like the artist set it in WWI instead of WWII; the human involved was definitely a soldier. Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | "It's Christmas in Heaven, http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | there's great shows on TV; c/o White Lightning Productions | the Sound of Music twice an hour http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | and Jaws I, II and III." Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- A Nybbas Christmas http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 11:42:22 -0500 From: Jesse Rooney Subject: IN> American TV Okay here we go, Last night after my last post I thought about what kind of intellectual TV there is in America and here is what I came up with: Sitcoms: None! No intellectual content what so ever! Cartoons: Simpsons, The Tick, AEon Flux, and South Park come to mind as animated yet intellectual comedy programming. Poltical Shows: Politicaly Incorrect is real funny and quite intellectual. Kurt Loder on MTV News is also an intellectual commedian but you have to watch his off hand remarks to get it. Really. Soap Operas: Days of Our Lives: Prehaps this is not funny or intellectual but it is certainly innovative esp. during sweeps week. I rember durring the OJ trial they had a charcter that was possessed by a demon. Recently the criminal mastermind of the show flew with his arch-enemy to "deepest Africa" to go on a Indy Jones adventure. This show packs more genres into it than anyother I have seen. At one point they had space aliens. Soap: The commedic spoof of other soap operas is -quite- funny, cheeck it out. Other Shows: Mystery Science Theater is funny and intellectual and the nature programming on the discovery channel is top notch. There you are, - -Jesse ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 11:35:35 -0600 (CST) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> American TV >Okay here we go, > Last night after my last post I thought about what kind of intellectual TV >there is in America and here is what I came up with: >Cartoons: >Simpsons, The Tick, AEon Flux, and South Park come to mind as animated yet >intellectual comedy programming. Aeon Flux I have sincere doubts about, and South Park is about as anti-intellectual as I can think of- not just stupid, but out of its way provocative without necessarily raising any new thoughts. The Simpsons and the Tick are both inspired. >Poltical Shows: >Politicaly Incorrect is real funny and quite intellectual. True, but I wish ABC hadn't bought the show and then buried it at 2:00 AM. Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | "It's Christmas in Heaven, http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | there's great shows on TV; c/o White Lightning Productions | the Sound of Music twice an hour http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | and Jaws I, II and III." Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- A Nybbas Christmas http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 11:46:48 -0600 From: "Scott A. Ellerman" Subject: IN> Fluff: Cthulhu and Haagenti (Was "Angelaki" a VERY long time ago) - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 >Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 12:45:56 EST >From: T Bretz >Subject: Re: Lilith (Re: IN> Angels and Souls (was Angelaki)) > >In a message dated 97-12-03 04:27:34 EST, you write: > ><<(1). What is Kult? > >Call of Cthulhu without the cheery optimism. [chuckle] Hmm....Cthulhu and Haagenti having dinner together... [sounds of Universe being consumed] Haagenti: "Check please...oh wait, we ate the waiter, didn't we? HEY! What are you doing with that salt sha..." [a very loud CHOMP] Cthulhu: "Mmm...demon prince tartare..." Scott.Ellerman@mci.com - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 Charset: noconv iQA/AwUBNIwyiHX84bXh+zKlEQJIrgCguo+ZaneHRiR5j8oufDgSlCJkBf4AmgP9 FQQkMT0r6wtcCFkL/+Xy+MjA =FK5B - -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:31:23 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Movies > > Why there should be a limited number of Superiors in an IN movie > ================================================================ > > > So, since that's been decided, which ones would make for > a stronger movie. Personally, I think even the ones included should > be more minor characters and it should focus on more earthy celestials > (much like a typical IN campaign), but most every celestial on earth > serves _someone_. > Dominic and, less urgently, Asmodeus, even if only briefly mentioned as being offstage. The audience has to know that steps are taken if important people fall out of line, like Superiors. It also gives the thing a good paranoid feel. The rest I think should depend on genre. For an action movie, Baal and Michael and/or Laurence have to be there. I'd go with Michael and let viewers think of him as the commander of God's armies, because he has name recognition, as does Baal. And unless the _war_ part of the War isn't going to be mentioned at all, they should be mentioned somewhere, so that people seeing it a second time on video won't be sitting there wondering whether the rulers of Heaven and Hell have no concept of concerted action. (We know they haven't, but it'll look bad in a film.) As for comedy: Nybbas and Kobal are obvious. And possibly Eli or Janus. Horror: Beleth and Blandine. With maybe backing from Yves and Kronos. Anything to do with Shedim. Thrillers (as in with spying, not just random explosions): Marc, Nybbas, Michael, Baal. Or they could do the Janus/Valefor thing, or something focused entirely on Dominic's inquisition, and that would be really cool. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 14:21:49 -0500 (EST) From: "Michael C. Nutt" Subject: Re: IN>More Shedite stuff... >> >might have made Shedim a little hard to handle, but the new ruling makes >> >them practically useless. >> >> I must admit, I choked when I read this the first time. Wonderful >> spit-take... Haagenti would have been proud. Grape juice *everywhere*! >> >> "...practically useless"???? Are there no politicians in your game? No >> clergymen? No police officers? No military men? No bank officers? No judges? >> No doctors? No scientists? No humans who hold positions of power and >> importance and influence? No humans whose memories and abilities could prove >> useful to the infernal legions? > >The original point I was making in this thread was the extent of the >usefulness of the Shedite resonance. The Shedite, on his own, was able to >get his hands on video evidence which showed just what happened to the >high-ranking demon we were supposed to be tracking. How? By possessing >the head of the hotel's security. When a Malakite bothered him >(unconfirmed, but we assume it was one), he stunned it and shot his >vessel to pieces. With the gun belonging to the head of hotel security. >In the hand of the head of hotel security. Well, my response was mostly aimed at Pee Kitty's comments. You raise some good points about how useful Shedim can be. I'd be a little concerned about any Malakite who was so wimpy as to let himself be killed with a handgun, but that's an entirely different issue. >> Anyway, even *if* you're just looking for combat-monsters, Shedim aren't >> exactly weaklings, either. This host is about dead? Switch to another one... > >Or just go straight to Celestial. This is where disturbances begin to >mount up. And here's where that "GM's prerogative" starts to make a big difference. Sure, if you switch hosts three times in the middle of the same fight, the disturbances will add up. But, if you bail out of the fight and go find a new host someplace else, I wouldn't rule it to be an additive disturbance. Anyway, fights between celestials are *supposed* to be noisy, what with all that Essence expenditure and all those Songs flying back and forth, not to mention the wear and tear on people and things! >> Disturbance, in limited quantity, isn't *that* big a deal. Unless your GM >> has sown celestials so thickly that there's a significant population of them >> in every city block, you can minimize the risks that disturbance will >> create. Not eliminated, true... but they can be reduced. >The problem is that if the issue is very important, disturbance is a >massive deal. I worked out with the GM that the disturbance from our >encounter with 2 Malakites would extend between 2 or 3 miles. (We had >several changes to Celestial form and a total of 13 Essence was spent) How >many angels are in the city of Geneva? How many more will Laurence or Michael >send if important plans are being ripped up and the muscle has been >inconvenienced? >Disturbance can be quite a big deal. Oh, in some major brawl, it can *surely* be a problem. My point, though, was that the limited amount of disturbance caused by a Shedite assuming its celestial form once every few days or so, when it switched hosts, isn't going to draw the attention of every angel for miles around, which seemed to be Pee Kitty's implication. Anyway, I'd say that Laurence and Michael would be likely to send more help if the current angels handling the situation start showing up in Trauma, *regardless* of the amount of disturbance. Michael Xena/Gabrielle in 2000... Because women are so tactful and diplomatic! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 14:27:50 EST From: "Perry M. Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Combat, Strength, and Damage >> >> I guess I'm *not* willing to *not* see a distinction between Strength and >> Agility. The little kid who connects often, but not with as much force as >the >> Giant, who can kill you with a bear-hug, but is too slow to be terribly >effective. > > Believe it or not, I've had this discussion with the INgods >already (with reference to VERY strong things like animals). The >easiest solution I came up with was letting damage be based on >Power, not Strength. So very large creatures might have a low >Strength (basic physical ability to use muscles) but have a very >high Power (to do more damage when they _do_ hit). Fer example >that elephant might only have a 4 strength (as much as that >boggles the imagination) but its mighty feet might have a Power >of +7. > Under that system, however, you have to define lifting >capacity as well. Elephants can obviously lift a lot! So I >threw in a fillip to fix that as well. Each basic body size >has a lifting capacity. Humans have *1, smaller creatures >would have much less, larger ones much more. > None of this is Canon, but I hope it helps until we >get a canon answer that everyone can live with. (All of this >has to be decided before we finish the expanded writeup on >Jordi! Lots of animal rules in that book, I'm willing to bet!) Cool, thanks. :) - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd "I saw a monster come with speed, Its face of grimmest green. On human beings it used to feed, Most dreadful to be seen. -Lewis Carroll (from "Horrors"-1850) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 14:24:54 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> [DV Fluff!] Scrunch & Archie >>>I thought it was better than Event Horizon, but then again that didn't take a whole lot.<<< Agree, on both counts. (Actually, I thought both Event Horizon and Aliens IV were passably entertaining, but they'd have been better as Saturday matinees.) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 14:31:29 EST From: "Perry M. Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Math, WOD and (was IN> Combat, Strength, and Damage) >> use on a regular basis. And if average skill is 2 then that makes >> average total skill 6. That yields, what? Probability of success of >> 50%? I'm guessing. > > The chances of getting a 6 or less on 2d6 is 5/12. The >chances for a 7 or less are 7/12. There's really no point where >it equals exactly 50%. Very *interesting*.... Hmmmm... That's interesting that there's no 50/50 chance. In way, that's neat since it means that you're always less likely to make it than not or you're more likely to make it than not. Or, it could just be me that finds that interesting. - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd "I saw a monster come with speed, Its face of grimmest green. On human beings it used to feed, Most dreadful to be seen. -Lewis Carroll (from "Horrors"-1850) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 14:24:52 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Not such [FLUFF]: Madonna and celestial tampering >>>Hmmm... can't mortals do anything on their own. In my game Dylan and Hitler are both soilders and so was half of the presidents. It seems that in IN and WOD the super powers run the show and even if that is not always right most GMs play it that way. I don't like it.<<< I was being facetious, in response to someone else's post about Madonna being intellectual. No, I do not think Madonna is necessarily the minion of a Demon Prince in In Nomine. (She's certainly furthering Andrealphus' and Nybbas' Words, so they probably like her, but that doesn't mean she's a Soldier or in any way knowingly serving Hell.) And I absolutely agree with you that in WOD the super powers pretty much run the world, to a degree that makes humans irrelevant, and those of us writing In Nomine try very hard to avoid that syndrome here. Certainly _some_ historical figures and major events will have been a result of celestial meddling (if celestials can't tweak history now and then, why do their Superiors send them to Earth?), but angels and demons DON'T control everything in IN, and I certainly don't GM it that way. YOU made Dylan and Hitler and half the presidents Soldiers in your game. If you don't like it, why make so many pivotal figures celestial pawns? - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 14:24:48 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> INO & Popular Entertainment >>>On the other hand, in response to your totally unrelated points, my guess is that Mapplethorpe is currently making Eli very, very happy (and confusing Andrephalus to no end...); Madonna is currently the focus of a three-way fight between servants of Eli (on loan to Novalis), Andrephalus, and Nybbas; Camille Paglia is a maverick who has interested both Novalis and David; Gary Larson and Bill Watterson's retirement is one of Nybbas' greatest triumphs of the '90's; the Capitol Steps are probably driving Malphas bonkers trying to figure out how to corrupt them; and Bob Dylan is actually one of Eli's soldiers. For the rest mentioned, I don't know enough about them (the State and Dan Smith, I believe?) to come up with what they would mean to Celestials in In Nomine.<<< All of the above, though, are based on your subjective opinion of said artists....we'll tend to see the shows and entertainers we like as serving Eli, those we don't like as serving Nybbas/Andrealphus. Which just illustrates that the vast majority of them aren't "serving" anyone....they're just putting out what they put out, and celestials put what spin they can on the material. (Incidentally, I wouldn't necessarily call Watterson and Larson's retirements as victories for Nybbas. As Watterson pointed out when he stopped doing Calvin & Hobbes, would you rather see the strip end while it is still funny, or have him keep churning it out forever until it's a stale old dinosaur and a mockery of what it once was....like Peanuts and Dennis the Menace? Watterson is an artist who KNOWS that he'll run out of creativity eventually, and chose to stop before he did.) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:46:01 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN>More Shedite stuff... > > Well, my response was mostly aimed at Pee Kitty's comments. You raise some > good points about how useful Shedim can be. I'd be a little concerned about > any Malakite who was so wimpy as to let himself be killed with a handgun, > but that's an entirely different issue. > Stunned for several rounds by Celestial Entropy. Repeated bullet wounds in the head were ruled to be enough. > > And here's where that "GM's prerogative" starts to make a big difference. > Sure, if you switch hosts three times in the middle of the same fight, the > disturbances will add up. But, if you bail out of the fight and go find a > new host someplace else, I wouldn't rule it to be an additive disturbance. I wouldn't either. > Anyway, fights between celestials are *supposed* to be noisy, what with all > that Essence expenditure and all those Songs flying back and forth, not to > mention the wear and tear on people and things! > Indeed. It wasn't until I counted up the disturbances that I realised just how quickly they stacked up. > > Oh, in some major brawl, it can *surely* be a problem. My point, though, was > that the limited amount of disturbance caused by a Shedite assuming its > celestial form once every few days or so, when it switched hosts, isn't > going to draw the attention of every angel for miles around, which seemed to > be Pee Kitty's implication. > Assuming they do that slow trick, however it's done. Otherwise it's two 9-pointers (assuming your Shedite isn't thick enough to do two right beside each other in time and space), which aren't insignificant. Although they're nothing like Dominic's weekly visits to his agents(!). > Anyway, I'd say that Laurence and Michael would be likely to send more help > if the current angels handling the situation start showing up in Trauma, > *regardless* of the amount of disturbance. > Most likely. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 14:24:50 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> [FLUFF] Red Dwarf/"Intellectual" shows >>>And the counter-point is that you missed the point of the thread in the first place. What is being looked for is clever, creative, and intellectual English-language TV comedy produced in the United States. If you can prove that there is an US *TV* Sitcom that is not the work of the anti-creativity Forces o' Hell (TM), then you will be closer on track to what we were talking about in the first place.<<< Well, of course almost everyone probably finds one or two sitcoms funny and entertaining, even though most other people would lump them into the same category as all the others. I like "Grace Under Fire" for example, and "Roseanne" grew on me -- they both presented some real situations in a wittier and more realistic manner than you usually see on sitcoms. But I've heard other people sneer at them as just more "working class mouthy chick shows". The real point is that the media puts out what people want -- which is not necessarily creativity. Nybbas is powerful because the public makes him powerful -- which is the whole point of In Nomine! He didn't *create* our appetite for drivel, he just feeds it and feeds on it. Anyone remember "Cop Rock"? It was a musical cop drama, a few years ago. It got panned big time, and it bombed fast. But it was innovative and an original idea. I thought at the time that even though it just didn't work, I hoped whoever came up with the idea got a chance to try again. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:54:07 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Math, WOD and (was IN> Combat, Strength, and Damage) > > Very *interesting*.... Hmmmm... That's interesting that there's no 50/50 > chance. In way, that's neat since it means that you're always less likely > to make it than not or you're more likely to make it than not. Or, it > could just be me that finds that interesting. > Yes. In the spirit of munchkinism, I worked out that if you have a Forces plus skill of 7 in any Song that you could do in your spare time (ie not in the middle of combat), it was more Essence-efficient to refrain from Essence boosting it in any shape or form, even if your GM is refusing to give you bonuses for extra time (in my case, he didn't refuse, I just forgot). Basically speaking, the probability of getting it right is better if you do it repeatedly with a reasonably small chance of success than if you do it once with a big chance. There was a 7% chance of me failing one such roll three times in succession. Guess what happened. And it was the same day we were fighting those Malakim. I don't know what the moral of this post is. I'm sure there was one when I started. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #504 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.