From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Dec 11 18:25:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA08098 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:25:52 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id SAA08956 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:07:39 -0600 Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:07:39 -0600 Message-Id: <199712120007.SAA08956@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #510 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, December 11 1997 Volume 01 : Number 510 In this digest: Re: HTML & the INC (Re: IN> Fluff: In Nomine Movie Trailers) Re: IN> Youth Groups Re: IN> Bal/Seraphim Anatomy Re: IN> What formats are okay for posting? Re: Habbakim of Fate (Re: IN> [FLUFF] Red Dwarf/"Intellectual" shows) Re: IN> What formats are okay for posting? Re: HTML & the INC (Re: IN> Fluff: In Nomine Movie Trailers) IN> MU* ? RE: IN> Kyriotates and Vessels RE: IN> Kyriotates and Vessels RE: IN> Kyriotates and Vessels Re: IN> MU* ? RE: IN> Kyriotates and Vessels RE: IN> Kyriotates and Vessels Re: IN> Whisperers IN> Re: Too Too Solid Flesh Re: IN> Whisperers Re: IN> MU* ? Re: IN> Youth Groups Re: IN> Whisperers Re: IN> Bal/Seraphim Anatomy Re: IN> Bal/Seraphim Anatomy Re: IN> Second Fall/Second Chance IN> Hark, the herald Angel's Guide... IN> New Batch of History Stuff Re: IN> New Batch of History Stuff Re: IN> New Batch of History Stuff Re: IN> Whisperers IN> [SEED] EoP [Longish, PG] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 17:48:21 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: HTML & the INC (Re: IN> Fluff: In Nomine Movie Trailers) > >Ahem. It sounds like you all need HTMLmail, an old PERL script which will > >take your ASCII mail and turn it into HTML-ized web pages. Not pretty, > >but with making some stock Head/Body tags in seperate files and a text > >editor, you can crank stuff out much faster then by hand. I used to > >use it for archiving Starweb turns. For the price of your soul, I will go > >looking around and find it. It's an old UNIX utility. > > > >If not, Beth and assorted servitors, I will WRITE you something rough, > >quick, dirty and lame to haul in the page, parse it, and spit out the > >HTML when I ought to be writing Win95 security software. > > > Eeep! Um, will it run on a Mac? > I have two PCs and a Sparc 20 here at work. I have three PCs at home, one of which is my Laptop of Dubious Value. Will it run on the MAC? I doubt it, the PERL scripts are either for UNIX or NT 4.0. I don't have the tools to code for the Mac right now either. But there has to be straight ASCII -> HTML tools that are available, I've seen dozen of command line utilities floating around. There's a few things I can do, if the Servitors of the Archives will let a lowly Balseraph have a few actions on the side. :) (Okay, I write code on Windows 95 all day, I'm definitely trapped in Hell.) I can: a) Poke around on the net, and try to dig up some conversion tools for the Mac. I won't know how they work, because I can't test them. b) Set up an account on my SPARC, and have someone just forward it all to me in bulk. I'll run a script over it, and mail it all back, HTML-ized, if I can get PERL up and running again (heh). There won't be fancy headers or anything, all the tweaking would have to be done by hand. C) Write a parser for you in JAVA in my copious free time, (wait, where? Where?) that can run stand-alone on your machine. I believe there is the equivalent of the Appletviewer for the MAC, although it would be nice if I knew it could run in command-line mode. d) Con you into getting your hands on a machine I can easily code for. :) e) You can just put up 
 tags on the page and say to Hell with
HTMLizing.

So those are my suggestions.  Either way, I think there is now far too
much mail passing through the list to be HTML-ized easily, at least not
by hand.  

Make the computer work for you, I say!

- - Em, tryin to be helpful

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:07:23
From: Jeff Miller 
Subject: Re: IN> Youth Groups

>I'm a youth pastor and I love role fantasy and rp games.  I am interested
in finding a game suitable for a college age group I lead.  I've come
across In Nomine but have not been able to preview it since my local gaming
store won't let me preview the material (it's shrink wrapped).  Tell me, is
In Nomine appropriate for a church group of college age kids?  The conflict
between good and evil, God and Satan does not offend us.  We believe this
conflict really exists.  However, I'm not interested in a game with
offensive language, pornographic art, or black magic.  I would appreciate
an honest response to my questions.  Thanks a lot.
>

It has a hierarchy in Heaven and Hell that is probably different that what
you were taught but, heck, they had to come up with something.  One thing
that I like is that they leave some of the major theological issues for the
GM to decide.

You might concider the artwork of some of the demons to be a bit over the
top but it is not pornographic.



Jeff Miller
Program Director/Webmaster for Agamemcon II

Burbank Airport Hilton  --  May 22-24, 1998

Contact Info:  
24161-H Hollyoak            (714)643-8352
Laguna Hills, CA 92656      www.primenet.com/~shadocat/agamemcon.html
               
               

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1986 15:33:09 -0800
From: "Derek Colanduno" 
Subject: Re: IN> Bal/Seraphim Anatomy

Isaiah 6:1-7: One of them touched Isaiah's lips with a live coal from the
altar, cleansing him from sin. Seraphim have six wings, two cover their
faces, two cover their feet, and two are for flying.

That is a 'plain english' translation of the Catholic stance on the
Seraphim.

>>Ditto the multiple wings.  Seraphim appear in the Bible only once, in
>>a vision of Isaiah's, where they are described as having six wings
>>(and FEET, which rather rules out snakes).  The Four Living Creatures
>>have four wings each in Ezekiel, six in Revelation.
>
>I thought that the wings were *covering* the feet -- maybe they
>*don't* have feet, and that's what they were hiding...? O:>
>
>Hm... My Angel Dictionary (Gustav Davidson) says: "4 faces and 6 wings."
>Which would mean they're missing 4 wings and 2 eyes...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1986 15:35:47 -0800
From: "Derek Colanduno" 
Subject: Re: IN> What formats are okay for posting?

You know... I am very new to this Mailing List, but I was wondering, has
anyone thought of maintaining a Web Site just for the Mailing List members
alone... Others *could* go to it, but I was thinking that it may be very
convienient to have for things like people wanting to make submissions and
such like the thread here. That way someone could just send whatever they
want in long form to the webmaster and then the webmaster could just post to
the list when there have been updates to the web site and it's contents.

>>  Is it okay to post attached documents to this list?
>
>NO! 
>
>(Though the partial stuff is probably 'kay. Just everybody try
>not to make *too* much of a habit of it?)
>
>> I've been working
>>on an IN adventure in Word, and I'd like some feedback, but converting
>>the whole thing (30 pages) to text and sticking it into a message would
>>be real unwieldy.  Any advice?
>
>Got a web-page?  Want to see it on the INC?  Or I can put it on
>my pages and just give out the URL.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 18:33:49 -0600 (CST)
From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin)
Subject: Re: Habbakim of Fate (Re: IN> [FLUFF] Red Dwarf/"Intellectual" shows)

>At 11:43 AM -0600 12/9/97, Redneck Gaijin wrote:
>[...]
>>                (3) I will never do anything which will lead a soul to its
>>bright Destiny.
>>                (4) I will obey Kronos' will in all things.
>[...]
>>        How's -that-? }:-{D
>
>Since #3 is already a Fate dissonance condition, and #4 is just
>plain smart thinking, *I'd* make you re-do those to something
>more meaningful...
>
 Aw, pick pick pick. I got better things to do than take oaths that are
- -hard- ta keep. Now, lessee, Margaret DeGrasse, age 8, destined to become a
great virologist... fated to be found hacked up in a plastic grocery bag on
the monkey bars tomorrow morning. Work's never done....

}:-{D

Redneck

Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | "It's Christmas in Heaven, 
http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck   |       there's great shows on TV;
c/o White Lightning Productions         | the Sound of Music twice an hour 
http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/      |       and Jaws I, II and III."
Webmaster for Antarctic Press           | --- A Nybbas Christmas
http://www.antarctic-press.com/         |  ***QUESTION EVERYTHING***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:35:10 +0000
From: "Nathaniel Eliot" 
Subject: Re: IN> What formats are okay for posting?

> You know... I am very new to this Mailing List, but I was wondering,
> has anyone thought of maintaining a Web Site just for the Mailing
> List members alone... Others *could* go to it, but I was thinking
> that it may be very convienient to have for things like people
> wanting to make submissions and such like the thread here. That way
> someone could just send whatever they want in long form to the
> webmaster and then the webmaster could just post to the list when
> there have been updates to the web site and it's contents.

That's essentially what the In Nomine Collection (www.sjgames.com
/in-nomine/articles) is.  Beth (arcangel@io.com) runs it.  The best
way to get stuff up is to have it in HTML form - otherwise, Beth (or 
one of her Servators) has to convert it, which takes a while.


Nathaniel Eliot
temujin9@ix.netcom.com

"It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or
a star in Hell.  But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell.  On 
a good day, it can look like LA."
     - Playing God

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:43:33 -0500 (EST)
From: Casca 
Subject: Re: HTML & the INC (Re: IN> Fluff: In Nomine Movie Trailers)

On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, Emily Dresner wrote:

> There's a few things I can do, if the Servitors of the Archives will let a
> lowly Balseraph have a few actions on the side. :) (Okay, I write code on
> Windows 95 all day, I'm definitely trapped in Hell.)  

I'm reminded of the line in the AA Beth writeup which states that not all 
Servitors of Archives are angels.... ;)

And, relevant to the thread regarding mention of Seraphim in the Bible, 
here's another translation of it. It's been in my .sig practically since 
I started posting.

- -- Casca, Seraph of Archives 
(bertishg@db.erau.edu)

"...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of 
His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: 
with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their 
feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the 
doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke."
							-- Isaiah 6:2,4

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 18:02:36 +0000
From: Jo Hart 
Subject: IN> MU* ?

Was there ever any news on an In Nomine MUSH? (I was wondering if someone
knew this to clear up an argument I'd been having with someone ;-) )



jo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:59:04 -0500
From: Elizabeth McCoy 
Subject: RE: IN> Kyriotates and Vessels

At 2:13 PM -0800 12/10/97, Steven Feldon (Exchange) wrote:
>Since I'm just now considering David for a role in my campaign, I'm just
>now realizing this: there's no wording in the listing for Kyriotates of
>Stone that would indicate that their vessels "tie up" forces.  Is this
>the silent extra benefit of having "vessels" that don't really look like
>people?

Yes.  Their vessels are not "living" and aren't able to interact
with people normally, so the StoneKyrios can just leave them around
like tacky garden gnomes if they want.  (Sorry, been reading Em's
new story, and Dai rubs off on one. Sort of.)

Hm, no, actually the statues vanish into potentiality. (Whole new
book to memorize, gotta scrub out all the drafts, like Karakash
and the old versions of IN...)  Ah, well. Em will have the statues
hanging around like gargoyles. 


- --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com  In Nomine Line Editor
GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 17:05:10 -0800
From: "Steven Feldon (Exchange)" 
Subject: RE: IN> Kyriotates and Vessels

Easy solution if you want to leave one about. . . Buy a body bag.  Then
just drag the vessel you want to put in your garden out of the bag.

Personally, I think it would be way cooler if they could purchase
_existing_ statues as vessels, or choose to leave the vessel about if
they wanted.  The image of Kyrios of Stone as a whole flock of gargoyles
on a building is just overwhelmingly memetic. . . . 

Also, can other Servitors of Stone purchase stone, non-human vessels
like the Kyrios?  The book doesn't say anything about it, but it makes a
kind of sense.  Perhaps they have to purchase the Kyrio of Stone
attunement to do it, though?

steve

	-----Original Message-----
	From:	Elizabeth McCoy [SMTP:emccoy@nh.ultranet.com]
	Sent:	Wednesday, December 10, 1997 4:59 PM
	To:	in_nomine-l@lists.io.com
	Subject:	RE: IN> Kyriotates and Vessels

	At 2:13 PM -0800 12/10/97, Steven Feldon (Exchange) wrote:
	>Since I'm just now considering David for a role in my campaign,
I'm just
	>now realizing this: there's no wording in the listing for
Kyriotates of
	>Stone that would indicate that their vessels "tie up" forces.
Is this
	>the silent extra benefit of having "vessels" that don't really
look like
	>people?

	Yes.  Their vessels are not "living" and aren't able to interact
	with people normally, so the StoneKyrios can just leave them
around
	like tacky garden gnomes if they want.  (Sorry, been reading
Em's
	new story, and Dai rubs off on one. Sort of.)

	Hm, no, actually the statues vanish into potentiality. (Whole
new
	book to memorize, gotta scrub out all the drafts, like Karakash
	and the old versions of IN...)  Ah, well. Em will have the
statues
	hanging around like gargoyles. 


	--emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com  In Nomine Line
Editor
	GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art:
http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:06:34 -0500 (EST)
From: Emily Dresner 
Subject: RE: IN> Kyriotates and Vessels

> Yes.  Their vessels are not "living" and aren't able to interact
> with people normally, so the StoneKyrios can just leave them around
> like tacky garden gnomes if they want.  (Sorry, been reading Em's
> new story, and Dai rubs off on one. Sort of.)

My influence spreads like some sort of disease!

Soon you'll be continuously sarcastic and be carrying exploding pens. :)

- - Em

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:32:26 -0500
From: Elizabeth McCoy 
Subject: Re: IN> MU* ?

At 6:02 PM +0000 12/10/97, Jo Hart wrote:
>Was there ever any news on an In Nomine MUSH? (I was wondering if someone
>knew this to clear up an argument I'd been having with someone ;-) )

There is no official one. I need to take that off the INC. O:<


- --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com  In Nomine Line Editor
GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:36:01 -0500
From: Elizabeth McCoy 
Subject: RE: IN> Kyriotates and Vessels

At 5:05 PM -0800 12/10/97, Steven Feldon (Exchange) wrote:
[Kyrios of Stone and vanishing vessels]

>Easy solution if you want to leave one about. . . Buy a body bag.  Then
>just drag the vessel you want to put in your garden out of the bag.

Ah, good point. Thanks.

>Personally, I think it would be way cooler if they could purchase
>_existing_ statues as vessels, or choose to leave the vessel about if
>they wanted.  The image of Kyrios of Stone as a whole flock of gargoyles
>on a building is just overwhelmingly memetic. . . . 

 Hey, you can let your Kyrios do that if you want! I
don't see much problem with it. Hm. Kyrios of Stone must *love*
Gargoyles....

>Also, can other Servitors of Stone purchase stone, non-human vessels
>like the Kyrios?  The book doesn't say anything about it, but it makes a
>kind of sense.  Perhaps they have to purchase the Kyrio of Stone
>attunement to do it, though?

The mind runs boggling. I like it...  As a GM-type, I'd let my players
do it, sure, if they bought the Kyrio of Stone attunement. All the
usual stuff that the Kyrios have to deal with, of course.


- --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com  In Nomine Line Editor
GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:26:32 -0500 (EST)
From: Casca 
Subject: RE: IN> Kyriotates and Vessels

On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, Steven Feldon (Exchange) wrote:

> Also, can other Servitors of Stone purchase stone, non-human vessels
> like the Kyrios?  The book doesn't say anything about it, but it makes a
> kind of sense.  Perhaps they have to purchase the Kyrio of Stone
> attunement to do it, though?

There was Cherub of David in my WW-IN game that did this. He had to buy 
the Kyrio of Stone attunement first. With that out of the way, he was 
able to have as many stone vessels as he wanted.

- -- Casca, Seraph of Archives 
(bertishg@db.erau.edu)

"...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of 
His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: 
with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their 
feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the 
doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke."
							-- Isaiah 6:2,4

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 02:44:50 +0000
From: Jo Hart 
Subject: Re: IN> Whisperers

>From: tom timberlake 
>
>All right, Jo, now you have gone and done it.... my paranoia just got
>kick-started from quiescent to transwarp hyperdrive... you come over
>hear and hold my hand while I try to get to sleep so I can get ready for
>work tonight, on the graveyard shift....


So.. you reckon having me holding your hand is likely to make you feel
/less/ paranoid, Tom? :-)


jo
(Thats cool, I can bring some spare handsets and we can do some listening
tests whilst we're waiting.. *bwah-hah-hah* High velocity beeped version of
'Puff the Magic Dragon', anyone?)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Dec 97 22:56:20 -0500
From: David Wood 
Subject: IN> Re: Too Too Solid Flesh

Quoth "Patrick O'Duffy" on 12/10/97 4:00 PM...

>Too Too Solid Flesh
>
>    Jade enema pumps, cloning experiments, the head of John the Baptist,
>zombis, mad Japanese doctors, Quentin Tarantino and more demons than you
>can shake a scalpel at... just another day for the Medivac unit at
>Bethlehem West Hospital.

[snippity snippity snip snippity snippity SNIP]

Ohhhhh, *precioussssssss*...

I'm not sure I can top that arrangement. You've given me an awful lot of 
reading to look forward to.

- -David                             http://www.bluecrab.org/members/dwood/

"I love the surgical garment. Enjoy the delights of the Victor Mature 
abdominal corset. Sail down the Nile on the Bleed-It Kosher Truss. And 
don't forget the Hercules Hold-'em'in, the all-purpose concrete truss for 
the man with the family hernia."
- -Monty Python, episode 26

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 23:19:34 +0000
From: tom timberlake 
Subject: Re: IN> Whisperers

Jo Hart wrote:
> 
> >From: tom timberlake 
> >
> >All right, Jo, now you have gone and done it.... my paranoia just got
> >kick-started from quiescent to transwarp hyperdrive... you come over
> >hear and hold my hand while I try to get to sleep so I can get ready for
> >work tonight, on the graveyard shift....
> 
> So.. you reckon having me holding your hand is likely to make you feel
> /less/ paranoid, Tom? :-)
> 
> jo
> (Thats cool, I can bring some spare handsets and we can do some listening
> tests whilst we're waiting.. *bwah-hah-hah* High velocity beeped version of
> 'Puff the Magic Dragon', anyone?)

Well, it will give me something to think about _besides_ the whisperers!
tom t., momentarily becoming a Servitor of Andrealphus, heh heh...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 01:07:19 -0600
From: Jaeden 
Subject: Re: IN> MU* ?

Jo Hart wrote:
> 
> Was there ever any news on an In Nomine MUSH? (I was wondering if someone
> knew this to clear up an argument I'd been having with someone ;-) )
> 
> jo

I heard it was an In Nomine MUD, from a friend of mine.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1986 04:36:27 -0800
From: "Derek Colanduno" 
Subject: Re: IN> Youth Groups

>>I'm a youth pastor and I love role fantasy and rp games.  I am interested
>in finding a game suitable for a college age group I lead.  I've come
>across In Nomine but have not been able to preview it since my local gaming
>store won't let me preview the material (it's shrink wrapped).  Tell me, is
>In Nomine appropriate for a church group of college age kids?  The conflict
>between good and evil, God and Satan does not offend us.  We believe this
>conflict really exists.  However, I'm not interested in a game with
>offensive language, pornographic art, or black magic.  I would appreciate
>an honest response to my questions.  Thanks a lot.


    I would think In Nomine is a great game for kids that age. Many college
aged people have played Role-Playing games, and are comfortable with the
idea. Now, In Nomine isn't exactly and perfectly accurate, but it IS just a
game. There's nothing pornographic in nature, and nothing 'over the top' if
you realize that Demons are pretty diabolical creatures in the first place.
There is a soft back version of the game available that usually isn't shrink
wrapped, try to find one of those around your area. If not, go to the
website and read some of the archives and posts from this mailing list, they
are available for download. The subject matter in here isn't any softer than
what is in the book itself.

Derek

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 09:42:55 -0500
From: Earl Wajenberg 
Subject: Re: IN> Whisperers

Hey, maybe the innumerable, nearly mindless Whisperers are the 
infernal version of the huge, quiet-but-brilliant Grigori (whose 
name means "Watchers").  They seem to have essentially the same 
functions -- diffused observation and propaganda/teaching -- but 
opposite designs -- many, tiny, and stupid vs. few, huge, and brilliant.

Now, are the infernal versions more effective, or have the Grigori 
just gone into really deep cover?

Earl

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 09:52:52 -0500
From: Earl Wajenberg 
Subject: Re: IN> Bal/Seraphim Anatomy

My father has studied Biblical Hebrew, so I asked him about the word
"seraph" and the potential snakiness of seraphim.  ("Sar," prince, is
another possible origin for "seraph," as in a Prince of Heaven.) He
said:

 "The seraphs in Isaiah 6 do not seem to be serpentine.  They seem to 
  have hands, since one of them brings a hot coal to the prophet with 
  a pair of tongs.  Etymologically, seraphim are closer to snakes than 
  to princes, because "seraph" and "Saraph" (fiery serpent) are both 
  related to the verb saraph, meaning "burn."  Sar, prince, is 
  presumably derived from a verb sarar, although the verb  is never 
  found in the Old Testament, and cognates in other languages have not 
  been found."

Earl

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:32:46 -0500
From: Earl Wajenberg 
Subject: Re: IN> Bal/Seraphim Anatomy

In an earlier post, I quoted my father saying, 

 "seraph" and "Saraph" (fiery serpent) are both
  related to the verb saraph, meaning "burn."

The connection with fire (though not with snakes, naturally enough 
I suppose) got carried through into Medieval and Renaissance poetry 
and art, where seraphim are often described as "burning" or "firey."
Generally, they burn with love of God.

Cherubim, the next choir down, were often said to excell in the 
knowledge of God.  In art, they were often color-coded blue, while 
the seraphim were color-coded red.

Earl

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:56:20 +0000
From: "David Chart" 
Subject: Re: IN> Second Fall/Second Chance 

- --On Tue, Dec 9, 1997 1:26 pm +0000 "Neel Krishnaswami" 
wrote: 

> Anyway, Yves and Michael disagree over a basic philosophical point. (IMC,
> of course.) To whit: Is it possible for free will to exist without the
> existence of evil? Yves says yes, and Michael says no. 
> 
> Yves claims that it is possible for everyone to freely choose to be good,
> whereas Michael claims that if no one ever chooses evil, then you can't
> meaningfully say that it is possible to choose evil. I think that if
> I worked at it, I could explain this as an instance of a disagreement 
> between a Platonic and positivist thinker. But that would be excessive.

I thought a bit more about my setting, and came up with something very close
to this. Everyone has to Fall (everyone Celestial, anyway) so that they can
know that they have free will: they rebelled once, they could do so again,
but they don't want to. Otherwise, that nagging doubt would poison eternity.

Yves, of course, cannot Fall, because Yves does not have Free Will. (Or
something, this bit hasn't got worked out yet.)

David Chart

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:28:40 -0500 (EST)
From: IQJason@aol.com
Subject: IN> Hark, the herald Angel's Guide...

A copy of the APG finds its way to my desk. No time for a full review, yet,
but it looks gorgeous so far. And the icons are nifty. Just hope the IPG's as
good. };::)

yours,
- -J

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:00:25 -0500 (EST)
From: Emily Dresner 
Subject: IN> New Batch of History Stuff

The world is coming to an end.  God help us all, I am busy reading Near
Eastern History (Axial Age, mostly, 800-200BC) right now, and it's messing
with my head.  But, it did bring up some pretty big questions about Canon
History, and how well it's really going to accurately reflect history.

Mostly it comes down to asking some questions, and picking out some
precident.  Here they are in a nutshell.

1. Uriel

Psalm 82 states:

God presides in the great assembly; he gives judgment among the "gods":
"How long will you defend the unjust and show partiality to the wicked?
Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless; maintain the rights of the
	poor and oppressed
Rescue the weak and needed; deliver them from the hand of the wicked.
"They know nothing, they understand nothing.  They walk about in darkness;
	all the foundations of hte earth are shaken.
"I said, 'You are 'GODS': you are all sons of the Most High.'
But you will die like mere men; you will Fall like every other ruler."
Rise up, O God, judge the earth, for all the nations are your inheritance.

** Side note, the last line is so out of place and stereotypically
Egyptian it's not even funny.

The Council of the Gods is refered to as "El Eloyim", I believe, the
Council of El Shaddai, who was the primitative major God of the Canaanites
of the time.  The Psalm refers to the fact that Yahweh was being
worshipped side by side with the other Canaanite gods of the time - Baal,
Anat, Asereth, etc.  Yahweh, our conventional God, shows up at one of
their meetings, and tells them they fulfill nothing their worshippers
need.  So he tells them to get going or he's going to kill them.  I
believe this was written about 700BC, when the followers of "God" were
having fights with the conventional pagans, so it does reflect a timely
mindset.

So this got me thinking.  We have a little precident for what Uriel
actually did, going into the Marches and cleaning out the Canaanite Gods
in a bloody war (which did in fact happen on the West Bank) in the name of
promoting everyone's favorite tribal war God.  Along with, unfortunately,
everything else.    

God didn't like the competition.  He created Uriel and the Malakim to wipe
them out.  Before this time, God was just a real good cheerleader,
telling the Isrealites they were His Chosen People, and everything
would be keen.  But God needed some more concrete proof.  With his
crusade of the time, God was rather successful, and those evil nasty gods
like Ba'al and Asereth were removed from his temples.  Heck, God had even
WARNED the other Gods, clear out or else, because you're useless.

So the guy got out of hand. Uriel wiped out the Canaanite Gods, the Kings
of the time ordered the temples destroyed and the priests killed, and God
cleared the path for his One Son.  So when did it get out of control?  

Follow the Marches after this, I suppose.  God would have no problem
at all of wiping out Egyptian Gods (80 AD), or Greek Gods, or Roman
Gods, or Celtic Gods.... Uriel wiped out everything in Yahweh's path,
although he didn't go anywhere on the Indian Subcontinent.  All this
was good and fine, God was not going to stop him even if people
screamed.  And when Islam started to arose, well... God was fighting God.
That's no good.  Uriel had to go away.

Islam was created by Yves to stop this and protect the other half of the
world.  And it worked.

This is my theory.  

2. Andrealphus

***I got to thinking when I read yesterday that Deuteronomy MIGHT possibly
have been written by a woman, or at least with some help.  Talk about
bizarre, I can drag up references for this if anyone wants them.

The more I read, the less I believe Andre Fell with the rest of them
during the fighting.  The way I can follow some of the older beliefs
during the time of Babylon, the less I see that Lust/Desire was originally
a Bad Thing.  While their were female Goddesses, the status of Women, and
Sex, was much different then it is today.  The temples of Ishtar had
religiously sanctioned brothels and whore houses, women owned land in the
Middle East, and were as forceful and brash as men.  There was even a time
when, in the Temple of Jerusalam, Aserath (contemporary of Ishtar) was
worshipped side to side with Yahweh as his Consort.  The gods and
goddesses of Love/Sex/Lust stood side to side with the God of the
Isrealites, and they cooperated well.

So when did it start going to hell?  As much as the Western Philosophers
have tried to change it, Yahweh is still predominantly a very male God,
and as his dominance spread, he gave way to a predominiately male society.
Sexuality was changed from something which was taken as a part of culture
and ritual to something that was hidden under heavy robes and hidden in
the back room.  

The old temples to the Goddesses were destroyed, the priestess were
dragged out and killed, and the statues were mashed to pieces.  Welcome to
Uriel's people.

When sex became bad and women of the temples became Whores, women were 
told to hide their hair, and that was when the Archangel of Lust fell.
Going from Side by Side with the best, the most powerful, to being forced
to snivel to Lucifer for vengence, for survival, for any form of sexuality
to survive, even perverted far beyond the originally benevolent Word.

To make things worse, to add insult to injury, his twin brother, his most
beloved, the Archangel of Creation, for some inexplicable reason, got to
STAY.  Why does Lust and Desire have to be cast out while Creation, who is
just as bad and permissive of other views, gets to stay in Grace.  It just
wasn't... fair.

Historically, he waxed and waned.  It's just in the current with the
advent of Nybbas that his Temples have returned.  On the Net, on TV, in
Print, people are worshipping heightened hemlines and sexuality like has
never been seen since the time of the Old Gods. 

So, I see him sitting down in his Principality, a Prince wronged by the
Crusades of the Past, seeing his slow revenge, as the temples return,
people only give lip music to the God they so-called Worship, and they go
back to the brothels and the whorehouses.  Angry, Wronged, Brooding, and
taking it out on Servitors, he's going to get his revenge one way or
another.  And now there is no Uriel.

3. Ba'al.

I'm not sure what to say about him.  He was a Babylonian God, then in the
time of Abraham on through to the Birth of Christ he was a Storm God of
Canaanite Myth.  So I assume Ba'al, in whatever form he is in, has been
around since Creation and just hanging on since.  He also strikes me as
one who was right with Lucifer when he Fell, because Baal was a thorn in
the side of Yahweh for a small but significant chunk of history.  

There's a scene, in Isaiah, I believe, where the Prophet challenged the
Priests of Baal to call down their God.  So there were bulls and firepits
and fire, and alot of priests who got chopped up into kibble.  This, I
would say, would be a turning point in anyone's religion.

He's small now, just a demon prince who is beholden to that upstart
ingrate, Lucifer, and he cannot escape without a final confrontation.  I
can see him angry, bitter, and just waiting.  The Apocalypse will be his
chance to wipe all the followers of Yahweh off the face of the Earth, and
rebuild his Temples to bring himself to greatness, just like before
Abraham settled on the West Bank.

******************

These are just some thoughts, really.  I was looking at some historical
accuracy.  I think as I read more, I'll learn more, and I'll post more.
It's not canon, it's just thoughts.  I like the motivations of the Demon
Princes.  

- - Em, Demon of Playing IN Backwards

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:47:46 -0500
From: Earl Wajenberg 
Subject: Re: IN> New Batch of History Stuff

Very PC.

> There's a scene, in Isaiah, I believe, where the Prophet challenged 
> the Priests of Baal to call down their God.  So there were bulls and 
> firepits and fire, and alot of priests who got chopped up into kibble.
> This, I would say, would be a turning point in anyone's religion.

The prophet was Elijah, so the account is in Kings or thereabouts.

Earl

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:05:39 -0500 (EST)
From: Emily Dresner 
Subject: Re: IN> New Batch of History Stuff

> Very PC.

Yeah, well.  It's been that sort of day.

> 
> > There's a scene, in Isaiah, I believe, where the Prophet challenged 
> > the Priests of Baal to call down their God.  So there were bulls and 
> > firepits and fire, and alot of priests who got chopped up into kibble.
> > This, I would say, would be a turning point in anyone's religion.
> 
> The prophet was Elijah, so the account is in Kings or thereabouts.

Okay, thanks.  I had a brain cloud.

- - Em

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:22:41 -0500 (EST)
From: Pee Kitty 
Subject: Re: IN> Whisperers

On Thu, 11 Dec 1997, Earl Wajenberg wrote:

> Hey, maybe the innumerable, nearly mindless Whisperers are the 
> infernal version of the huge, quiet-but-brilliant Grigori (whose 
> name means "Watchers").  They seem to have essentially the same 
> functions -- diffused observation and propaganda/teaching -- but 
> opposite designs -- many, tiny, and stupid vs. few, huge, and brilliant.
> 
> Now, are the infernal versions more effective, or have the Grigori 
> just gone into really deep cover?

Suggestion:

When the Grigori began to fall (not just trip), Lucifer decided that it
was not very pragmatic to have huge, humanlike fallen angels in his
service. Not only would they be more likely to go renegade on him (if they
abandoned God for their humanistic passions, they could abandon him even 
easier), but all the angels have this special prejudice against their
choir...to the point that it might precipitate the Final Battle when the
fallen Grigori were seen (one that Lucifer is not ready for). With that in
mind, all fallen Grigori were brought to him in secrecy, and their Forces
were carefully carved from them into many, many fractional-Forces. From
the few Grigori that fell, Luciver netted around one hundred Whisperers;
it did not take long to breed them into thousands, then millions, and now
they are omnipresent on the Corporeal plane. They are never seen in Hell,
except in the breeding pens of Hades, locked away from the sight of all.


Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian
(Married to Rev. Unibomber on 11/15/96 - be jealous ;)
								Meow!

The Devil went down / to Newport town
He brought his red surfboard / to race against the Lord
It was totally rocking... totally rocking...
                           "The Devil Went Down to Newport", Mono Puff

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:57:54 -0600
From: "Yeager, Alex" 
Subject: IN> [SEED] EoP [Longish, PG]

I haven't got a group to GM currently, and this seed wouldn't be 
appropriate for the grab-bag of ages at a convention, but I need 
to get this out of my head so I can focus on my other winter con 
scenarios...

WARNING: Not that it will matter to 99% of this list, but the 
following does contain sexual themes (though no naughty 
words).  Viewer discretion is advised.

The Essence of Pornography

PROLOGUE
   "Hey...Rubbing Man's back!"
   Mark disengaged himself from a pile of overdue video printouts 
and peeked over Adrian's shoulder at the grainy image on the 
security camera.  "I don't get it.  All he does is take a
cassette out of the box, do that little wiggly thing with his hands, 
puts the cassette back in the case, and picks up another one."
   Adrian moved his finger across the screen.  "And it's always the 
same ones!  Watch - his next stop is riiiight....here!"  And, as if 
on cue, the figure took three steps left and picked up the store's 
copy of Video Amateurs: Please Undress, L.A.! #23.  Opening the 
plastic case, he removed the cassette from the case, gripped the 
cassette with both hands, and did...SOMETHING with his fingers.  The 
thumbs were lightly moving over the top of the cassette, but 
there was obviously some other movement going on out of sight, on 
the underside of the cassette.
   "What I don't get is why he's even INTO porno videos," Mark 
muttered.  "I mean, LOOK at him.  Women must be lining up to date 
him, and it's not like he smells or anything..."
   Adrian looked at him.  "When did you smell him?..."
   Mark flipped him off.  "You know what I mean.  He's friendly 
and good-looking, so why does he have to come in here five times a 
week and do...THAT?"
   Adrian sighed as a small hand deposited a pair of Disney videos 
on the counter in front of him, with a mother in close pursuit.  
"I dunno.  As long as he returns videos on time, who cares?  All I 
know is, if he starts rubbing something other than the videos, THEN 
I'll worry..."

PLOT THEME
Any demon that has ever had to cower in hiding for a day, trying 
to perform a Rite or wait until sunset to get back to a single point 
of Essence, has had to envy the Impudite's resonance.  To be able 
to fill back up on Essence, and having so many choices of where to 
get it, has caused much Infernal wondering as to how they might 
somehow replicate this resonance for themselves.

Mundane humans expend all their Essence in one shot when they 
really want to do something (p. 46).  Andrealphus's minions have 
noted that one of those instances can be upon orgasm.  Consequently, 
Andrealphus has had several projects over the years with Vapula to 
come up with ways to harness this potential source.

Home video has given them the tool they needed.  By imbedding 
sigils at certain...climactic moments in pornographic videos, this 
sudden rush of Essence can be trapped inside the videocassette, and 
then released through the use of a special VCR.  This has been a 
very quiet undertaking so far, since exposure would cause Nybbas 
to demand a cut (or mass-produce the technology, making it very 
noisy), or give the Angelic side a BIG incentive to crack down 
on access to adult videos.  Andrealphus doesn't want this shut 
down for both selfish (Essence) and immoral (Lust) reasons; Vapula 
just likes the extra supply of Essence he gets kicked back.

Normally, select Infernals gather up a cross-section of the titles 
at a given video store, and haul them across town to a warehouse 
or other such large structure (or a Tether) for "downloading".  
(This usually happens over the weekend, causing a noticeable drop 
in available adult videos at your local video purveyor.)  VERY
occasionally, certain operatives of Andrealphus and Vapula have also 
been issued a VCR from Vapula, with a massive manual describing a 
long list of bizarre instructions in order to access the Essence 
for their own use.

The "special VCR" is a small misnomer; certainly the VCR issued to 
the select few Demons involved in the project is more than mundane
(see below).  However, the secrecy and ritual that Vapula has 
impressed these underlings with conceals the fact that it's 
moderately easy to strip the Essence out of the videocassettes 
for an enterprising young infernal.   And who better than an 
Impudite to tackle the task?...

GYLDAN
Gyldan (Gil Dane) is your typical Impudite - a good-looking Vessel,
winning personality, and a devoted group of friends - but he's 
also an Essence junkie.  Granted, all Impudites have a taste for 
Essence, but Gyldan is remarkable in the depths he will go to be 
able to have Essence to use.  In the past, he would be dangerously 
obvious in his stripping of Essence; every favor done for another 
demon had its price in Essence, to the point where more than one 
demon has been known to sarcastically refer to him as "wannabe 
Lilim".

All that ended when he stumbled onto the video scheme above.  (How 
is left as an exercise to you, dear readers.)  Now, 
those who know him find him as generous as he was previously 
stingy.  He always seems to be "fully charged", and he'll use 
Songs at the drop of a hat with a seeming disregard for the Essence
cost.  

ANGELIC THREADS
- - Someone's been spending a lot of Essence about town.  A LOT.  Find 
out who...
- - A fledgling operative of Jean who works in an electronics repair
store has had someone bring in a VCR with a tape jammed in it.  The 
thing is registering pretty high on the Essence scale, and he has 
called for help.  (A great chance for the GM to roleplay electronics 
geek/puppy-dog sidekick!)

INFERNAL THREADS
- - The weekly Essence harvest from Project Porno is down.  Find out 
why.
- - Asmodeus has received a very interesting report about Gyldan.  
Investigate said demon.

SHTICKS
- - The cassettes that store Essence appear mundane until touched 
(and the CASSETTES must be touched, NOT the case).  Your average 
video store may have up to fifteen or twenty of these "special" 
cassettes (meaning lots of searching for the right ones).  
Treat them as reliquaries minus regeneration.  Destroying one 
of these cassettes releases the Essence stored (up to 5 Essence), 
with the requisite Disturbance.  I envision the final scene as 
one where hundreds of these cassettes are lying around...
- - The VCRs that offload Essence, when used as described in Vapula's 
documentation, require whatever goofy rituals you choose to make 
your PCs perform, culminating with their sticking their hand into 
the cassette slot to gather Essence (and a mild electric shock).
It will play mundane videos normally, but if set up for TV
reception, will always find and broadcast the Jerry Springer Show
if available at a given time on any channel accessible to it.
(Internationals may substitute their own local odious talkmeister.)
- - Use your own imagination as to the specific cassettes that 
contain the necessary encoded triggers; the process that overlays 
the sigils was prone to abuse by those in Vapula's lab (along 
with the triggers, other random Angelic abuse can be found 
interspersed throughout the video).
- - I'm not providing a writeup for Gyldan; personalize him 
for your campaign.  Use a standard Impudite shell with lots of 
Charm and Songs; he'll always have a cassette or two hidden inside 
a coat pocket, or a briefcase, or something else appropriate.  Don't 
give him too many Forces (10 or 11 should do); he's gotten lazy with 
just throwing extra Essence at problems to solve them.  (If you 
really want the full character writeup, send me a note and I'll 
fire it off to you.)

I thought about making this a tad more serious, with expositions 
on orgone and other energy theories, but Kobal snuck onto my 
machine at lunch and fiddled with the wording a bit.  Suits me 
better now, anyway.   Now, I can get back to more important things 
(like giving demons drivers' licenses...stay tuned!)

Alex Yeager   YeagerAW@Maritz.com   MIB 0230/FoL/INWO Local 23

------------------------------

End of in_nomine-digest V1 #510
*******************************

The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated.
All rights reserved.