From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Dec 15 10:24:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA21085 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:24:28 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id KAA08159 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:11:52 -0600 Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:11:52 -0600 Message-Id: <199712151611.KAA08159@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #514 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, December 15 1997 Volume 01 : Number 514 In this digest: IN> Movie Trailer IN> Mixed Group ideas Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions Re: IN> Greetings Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions IN> Other Vessel Questions IN> Kyriotates and Vessels IN> So, guys, any feedback? IN> Another movie trailer Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions Re: IN> Another movie trailer IN> Method of Killing Angels Re: IN> Is it as easy as it seems to make Servitor of Fire Re: IN> Is it as easy as it seems to make Servitor of Fire Re: IN> New Batch of History Stuff Re: IN> Kyriotates and Vessels Re: IN> In Nomine : Movie 2 Trailer ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 19:01:48 -0700 (MST) From: Jason Corley Subject: IN> Movie Trailer Actually, this isn't the first RPG setting I've written a trailer for. I did one for our local LARP...(you can read it at ftp://chronic.lpl.arizona.edu/pub/larp/shared.universe/Tucson/history/trailer.txt) ...and I did one for a Star Wars game (you can read it at ftp://chronic.lpl.arizona.edu/pub/rebels/trailer.txt). - -------------------------------- [UP MUSIC: Piano playing the opening notes of 'Hungarian Rhapsody #5', very softly.] [BLACK SCREEN] VOICEOVER [James Earl Jones]: Men In Black? [SEVERAL QUICK JUMP CUTS BETWEEN: * Hagith flinging his Wing-ed body out of a heavenly tower before it explodes. * Farris holding a gun on a leathery-winged demon who has obviously been beaten to a pulp. * Screeching subway train with sparks flying off the sides as it grinds to a halt at a red-lit station.] VOICEOVER: Wimps. [A white line moves slowly across the screen.]] VOICEOVER: James Bond? [SEVERAL QUICK JUMP CUTS BETWEEN: * Flaef relaxing on a couch with several oversexed underdressed women. He presses the button on the remote control. * Hagith blowing a smoke ring with a thick cigar. * Policemen breaking down the door to a clearly empty, white-walled apartment.] VOICEOVER: A loser. [The white line starts to tilt slightly resolving itself into the logo of the movie. Something catchy like the one for "The Saint".] VOICEOVER: Jackie Chan? [STOP MUSIC.] [CUT TO: The four angels, dressed like the Blues Brothers pausing as they walk through a door.] HAGITH (addressing the screen): Let's not go -too- far. [UP MUSIC. FULL ORCHAESTRA. JUMP CUT between various other scenes of the movie, far too quick to catch.] [At an appropriate spot in the music, JUMP CUT to logo.] VOICEOVER: Los Arcangeles. Coming soon to a theater near you. Rated R. [JUMP CUT TO BLACK, with one more orchaestra hit.] ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 19:13:49 -0700 (MST) From: Jason Corley Subject: IN> Mixed Group ideas Some more thoughts on how to mix Angel and Demon PCs into the same group: * Celestials are rare. What's more useful to Heaven, whooping a demon's ass or figuring out what they're doing? Clearly if a group of angels can - -find- a demon with any degree of regularity, then that demon is only a servitor of someone else higher up. Whomp one servitor and they may send another which you -can't- find as easily. Associate with/follow around that servitor and you may figure out what Hell is up to. Similarly for demons: there are twice as many angels as there are demons, so the demon is more valuable to Hell than the angel is to Heaven. Hence, whooping an angel and getting axed is not a good idea and helps Heaven more than Hell. Besides, if you can -talk- to them, you might be able to get an "in" with them and help them Fall. * "Dirtside" Celestials just see the War differently than their bosses do. Both sides are likely to have their hands in a lot of different pies. The two sides may not like each other, but they may know that when some things happen, they can count on each other to act in certain ways. Nobody has an incentive to rock the boat a lot: when circumstances come along that rock the boat one way or another, things may change. * "The Usual Suspects". Demons are notorious for ratting each other out. Loyalty is a bizarre trait in Hell. So why not a couple of demonic stool pigeons in an angel PC party? (And how better for Hell to keep track of angels' investigations than with a couple of double agents?) * Mutual Assured Destruction. In a particular place, the PCs all have their fingers in so many mortal pies that their destruction would wreak havoc not just on the Symphony, but on everyone else's plans, too (the demons of course aren't in it for the Symphony, they're in it for the cash.) They may despise each other, but until they can -extract- each other from the area, and subtly, they are stuck with each other. * The Schedule. Armageddon is not yet. What if some demon (or angel) wants to start it right away? Both sides have an interest in keeping Armageddon away for a while. (Heaven because of it's adherence to the Symphony, Hell because it knows that it couldn't possibly win if Armageddon came in the next century or so.) This could be the basis of an ongoing campaign. Thoughts? Jason ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 21:13:51 -0600 From: "A." Subject: Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions [Pee K] > BTW, do you think it'd be more realistic to base combat skill on > 2xForces, use Strength(/Int/Will) as a damage bonus, and continue > using Agility(/Pre/Per) for Dodge? I was thinking of trying that > > out... since 2xCorpForces is basically the averag e of Strength and > Agility, it seemed right. And then I could keep Power at -3, but add a > bonus of 1/2 Strength (round down) to that. So the average Celestial > would attack with a Power of 0. Before I try this, does it sound > right? It seems more fai r to base the CHANCE of attack on a "stat" > that combines Strength *and* Agility, i.e., double-CorpForces. It also > makes automatic success in combat a bit less rare, which is good > IMO...auto-successes in combat are RIDICULOUSLY common. yes, this does sound much more accurate in terms of combat realism. The chance of hitting someone is not solely determined by strength - agility is involved. too many characters buy up their strength on creation to be increase their chances of success in combat. this is a good way of making strength about 'strength' and damage. couple of questions tho'... 1) would this eliminate the appropriate combat skills? Fight, I understand, but what about Large weapon and Ranged weapon and the like? 2) I can see this really slowing down combat. What might be done in 6-8 rounds might take upwards of 15, with chances of hitting reduced... or am i just a pessimist who should be glad because it will force the players to rp more 'inspired' combat? aaron ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:39:14 EST From: Neel Krishnaswami Subject: Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions On Sat, 13 Dec 1997, Perry M. Lloyd wrote: > Hey, I know I don't read all the messages from the list, so if this has > been hammered to death already, please don't hammer me. > > My question is: > > When a celestial is in a Vessel, are they essentially a human with > super-powers, or a super-natural being borrowing a body? > > For instance, can an Angel not be affected by a kick to the balls? Here's some (tentative) celestial vessel rules...I just thought them up, so feel free to hurl brickbats/shower me with praise/offer thought-provoking and insightful commentary... When the vessel is created, the celestial has the option of taking any of the following attributes to it: Attribute Rating - ----------------------------- ------- No need to eat/drink/excrete 1 No need to breathe 2 No need to sleep 3 No incapacitating pain 4 None of these attributes cost cost any resource/character points; however, for each attribute taken, the rating is added to *every* disturbance the celestial makes while in that vessel. Also, the attributes of that vessel must be chosen at its creation, and can't be changed. So a Djinn with a Terminator-style vessel that needs no food, air, sleep, and doesn't even bother him with annoying pain messages is going to have to add *10* to every disturbance he makes. Breaking a plate-glass window will have a base 11 disturbance, and a murder in this vessel will be a 20! He had best not use this vessel except when the Malakim show up. The rationale for this rule (besides preserving playability) is that celestial vessels are not supposed to be in the Symphony. But the more care an angel/demon takes to "fit in," the less noisy he or she will be. But the more closely the celestial mimics a mortal body, the more it will find itself a victim to all the cares the flesh is heir to.... This also adds a nice bit of additional detail a player can use to flesh out his or her character. Say two players are running Mercurians; maybe one will choose to be victim to all the problems that plague mankind to enhance his empathy, while another will choose as perfect a vessel as possible to avoid distractions from her divinely-appointed mission. - ---- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 21:02:27 -0700 (MST) From: Jason Corley Subject: Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > Here's some (tentative) celestial vessel rules...I just thought them up, so > feel free to hurl brickbats/shower me with praise/offer thought-provoking > and insightful commentary... > > When the vessel is created, the celestial has the option of taking any of > the following attributes to it: > > Attribute Rating > ----------------------------- ------- > No need to eat/drink/excrete 1 > No need to breathe 2 > No need to sleep 3 > No incapacitating pain 4 > You might also consider making these -flaws- in the vessel in some says. For example, if you have no need to breathe, that might cost 2, but if you - -don't- breathe unless you're really thinking about it, that might even things out, or even give a small plus to the account... This also gives the option of having other minor flaws: maybe they don't have a pulse, or a skeletal system. This might particularly be true if this is not their first vessel, or if the vessel was hastily made in the event of an emergency... Jason ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:25:51 -0500 (EST) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, A. wrote: > [Pee K] > 1) would this eliminate the appropriate combat skills? Fight, I > understand, but what about Large weapon and Ranged weapon and the like? No. Swords would use 2xCorpF + Large Wpn (Sword) as a target number. > 2) I can see this really slowing down combat. What might be done in 6-8 > rounds might take upwards of 15, with chances of hitting reduced... or > am i just a pessimist who should be glad because it will force the > players to rp more 'inspired' combat? I disagree. WIth this new rule, players with high Strengths would still hit pretty accurately, having high CorpForces, *and* they would do a lot more damage, ending the fight faster! Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian (Married to Rev. Unibomber on 11/15/96 - be jealous ;) Meow! The Devil went down / to Newport town He brought his red surfboard / to race against the Lord It was totally rocking... totally rocking... "The Devil Went Down to Newport", Mono Puff ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:42:17 -0600 (CST) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions >On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, Perry M. Lloyd wrote: > >> I've been wondering about combat between celestials on the corporeal >> realm. Seems to be that they can cause pain to each other, I site pg 99 >> in the main text, where the Malakh is beating the Balseraph. But, this >> could be explained by the Malakh's supernatural strength (except that Str >> plays no role in amount of damage done with each blow, merely in frequency >> of times damage is actually done - but I'm not bitter). > >Yeah...I'm not saying they won't feel pain, but they'd be less affected by >it. Kind of like Vampires in WoD; you can HURT them, but they don't let it >get them down...they all have a high pain threshold, basically. Depends on the level Vessel and STR, and in my games, the Will as well. >BTW, do you think it'd be more realistic to base combat skill on 2xForces, >use Strength(/Int/Will) as a damage bonus, and continue using >Agility(/Pre/Per) for Dodge? NO. High forces usually mean high or respectable Strength anyway. Basing Fight on 2X CorpForce won't change the average fight, but taking on bonuses for Strength -will-. Keep it to Strength, and high Strength and decent Fight skills will add their own bonuses. And then I could keep Power at -3, but add a bonus of 1/2 Strength >(round down) to that. In my IN games, I make fists Power 0 and adjust all other weapons accordingly. If you don't think you can do major damage with just your hands, you don't know much about fighting. So the average Celestial would attack with a Power >of 0. Before I try this, does it sound right? It seems more fair to base >the CHANCE of attack on a "stat" that combines Strength *and* Agility, >i.e., double-CorpForces. It also makes automatic success in combat a bit >less rare, which is good IMO...auto-successes in combat are RIDICULOUSLY >common. Which is why I make rolls of 11 or 12 auto-failures. Even the most skilled make mistakes. Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | "It's Christmas in Heaven, http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | there's great shows on TV; c/o White Lightning Productions | the Sound of Music twice an hour http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | and Jaws I, II and III." Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- A Nybbas Christmas http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:49:25 -0500 (EST) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Greetings On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, Jason Corley wrote: > First of all, I just want to say that this is the best RPG mailing list > I've ever been on. I know this despite only being on it a couple of days > now. (I knew it was good when I saw Pee Kitty here, being a perennial > alt.slack lurker.) Your reputation precedes you, Jason. As a refugee from the WOD lists, I'm familiar with your stuff....you're good. Welcome to the cult. ;) - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:08:14 -0600 (CST) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions >On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, A. wrote: > >> [Pee K] >from Strength, and leave Dodge alone> > >> 1) would this eliminate the appropriate combat skills? Fight, I >> understand, but what about Large weapon and Ranged weapon and the like? > >No. Swords would use 2xCorpF + Large Wpn (Sword) as a target number. But Small Weapon and Ranged Weapon still roll off Precision instead of Strength. >> 2) I can see this really slowing down combat. What might be done in 6-8 >> rounds might take upwards of 15, with chances of hitting reduced... or >> am i just a pessimist who should be glad because it will force the >> players to rp more 'inspired' combat? > >I disagree. WIth this new rule, players with high Strengths would still >hit pretty accurately, having high CorpForces, *and* they would do a lot >more damage, ending the fight faster! And what does this change? In the old system, players with high Strengths hit accurately and can have damage bonuses. (9 and above get bonuses, and every overkill point of (STR + Fight) also registers as a bonus.) *(Note: This is for standard IN combat, not the system in my games.) Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | "It's Christmas in Heaven, http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | there's great shows on TV; c/o White Lightning Productions | the Sound of Music twice an hour http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | and Jaws I, II and III." Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- A Nybbas Christmas http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 06:25:56 +0000 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions >From: Pee Kitty >On Sat, 13 Dec 1997, Perry M. Lloyd wrote: > >> >> For instance, can an Angel not be affected by a kick to the balls? > >The Stunning rules suggest strongly that vessels CAN be affected by >"system shock" and the like. I'd say that they do not actually feel PAIN, >but severe amounts of physical trauma can be more than their frail >flesh-n-blood vessels can handle. A kick to the balls? Not in my game; the >celestial would just grin. > I'd be tempted to say that if they can't feel pain then they can't feel pleasure etc either. (Which is more or less how it applies to vampires in V:tM -- drinking blood is ecstatic, anything else is vaguely pointless). I suppose it depends on what sort of game-feel you are looking for. It is implied in the rules that superiors are capable of designing vessels for specific purposes (ie. Baal) so perhaps for a special mission soe kind of enhanced vessel might be made available (and the company that will bring it to you.. 'Tartarus Exploitation Ltd.' ) Is there any RPG which accurately reflects the effect of a kick to the balls .. to a bloke? ie. That would have them doubled up in pain and incapable of doing anything for a couple of minutes, after which back to normal? jo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 00:54:27 -0600 (CST) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions >Is there any RPG which accurately reflects the effect of a kick to the >balls .. to a bloke? ie. That would have them doubled up in pain and >incapable of doing anything for a couple of minutes, after which back to >normal? > Just a point, based on a couple of times this bloke has been in a rough-and-tumble: If, during a fight, you kick a guy in the balls, under most circumstances you had better be winning the fight or be a good runner. The man will be incapacitated for seconds, not minutes, and then he will be out to -kill- the person responsible. A kick to the balls, announced, in my game would do a max of (Vessel level) points damage, would automatically stun if all the damage is not blocked for one round, and would make you that Celestial's Very Special Friend from then on. }:-{D Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | "It's Christmas in Heaven, http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | there's great shows on TV; c/o White Lightning Productions | the Sound of Music twice an hour http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | and Jaws I, II and III." Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- A Nybbas Christmas http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 03:32:15 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Other Vessel Questions >>>It seems that they have organs...otherwise an X-Ray would show them up.<<< If they didn't forget belly buttons, I can't imagine they'd forget heart, lungs, liver, etc. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 03:32:13 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Kyriotates and Vessels >>>Anyway, it doesn't say anywhere that Kyriotates have to be in more than one place at once, just that they can be. It's like saying Seraphs have to be using their resonance for truth all the time, if you ask me. They do; Seraphs -can't- lie. It's dissonant for them, because their Resonance is for truth. "A Kyriotate's Resonance is for multiplicity." It's one of the first things it says about them.<<< Yes, Seraphim CAN lie, it just causes dissonance. And they DON'T use their resonance constantly -- otherwise they'd be making resonance rolls for every conversation, and a Seraph who does that will find himself unable to screen out lies when he really wants to, because sooner or later he'll fail a resonance roll and be unable to apply his resonance for hours. You're mistaking "natural inclination" for "inviolable hardwired behavior". - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 19:42:25 +1100 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: IN> So, guys, any feedback? G'day. I posted an adventure ('Too Too Solid FLesh') to the list last week. I'm not lookign for ego stroking here (but don't feel you have to hold back), but I _am_ looking for any feedback from those who've read through it. Probably through private e-mail to avoid sucking down bandwidth. Ta. - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia The ants are in the sugar The muscles athrophied We're on the other side, the screen is us and we're TV MARILYN MANSON, "Man That You Fear" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:20:29 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: IN> Another movie trailer (Sorry, something got into my fingers and made me do it.. :) ) < Black screen fades to flickering candle-light. A man keeps vigil in a deserted medieval-style church, on his knees, holding a sword. > || Throughout the ages, there have been men and women who pledged their lives to serve God... < Camera pans in down the aisle and the lighting brightens enough for us to see that the man is wearing a leather jacket and digital watch. His lips move silently > || and His angels... < Camera pans to the man's shadow, which has long dark wings. Footsteps ring in the aisle behind him as someone approaches... > < Same church, the malakite stands at attention, speaking to Laurence. "I understand, sir. It will be my honour to train them." > || ... but you just can't get the staff these days. < Katie locks up the library as she leaves. She has dyed scarlet hair. She gets into a battered Ford Escort with 'L' plates and drives off at breakneck speed, swerving all over the road. > < Jim shares a joke with a couple of younger lawyers as he takes off his advocate's wig. He is in his 50s and balding. > < Ian finishes lovingly painting a garish daisy on a menu-board on which every second item contains lentils > < Tom pushes a pile of pizza boxes away from his computer and stops to frown at the screen. He is running to fat. On the screen words appear: ... C.o.n.s.i.d.e.r y.o.u.r.s.e.l.f r.e.c.r.u.i.t.e.d. j. "Recruited for what??" he exclaims. > < cue cheerful military marching music.. > < Panoramic shot of the entrance to a grand mansion. Over the gateway is an iron sign which reads 'St George's Military Academy' > < The Malakite stands on a podium, addressing a class which includes all the people spotted earlier. "You're in the army now. The army of God!" > < Quick shots of the recruits failing pitifully at various training exercises. Tom falls off a balance beam. Katie almost takes her instructors eye out with a bow and arrow. Ian puts down a sword and patiently explains "I can't use this. It might hurt someone."> < A grizzled man talks to the malakite in a private office. From the six-winged shadows we can see that he is a seraph. "I'm sorry Zeke, but we need them out there now, and they're going to need to learn to fight dirty, because the other side will." > || They have to find a way to fight an enemy who never rests... < Jim & Ian dash into a large church. Suddenly every candle is simultaneously blown out by a keening wind. > < Shot of the interior of a demonic strip joint > < An a neon roadsign, a minibus slows as a light flashes up "Welcome to Hell. We hope you enjoy the game." > < Tom grabs a child protectively and dives behind a table, away from a firefight. Someone yells "We need bigger guns!" > || where Justice is blind... < The malakite covers its eyes with its hands and mutters "I didn't see that." > || ... and there isn't always an easy answer. < Tom and the seraph are standing in a church, talking. He turns to the angel and asks, "But how do you know you're right?" > || Sometimes, you just have to have faith. < Katie sprints up the marble steps and into the main hall, where the others are milling around and waves a piece of paper, "Hey guys! I passed my driving test!" Tom looks heavenwards, "OK... now I believe in miracles!" > < Fade to black > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:43:24 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions > AND opens up a huge whole for crunchies to exploit. > "Yes, that right, I've killed over twenty angels single-handedly." > "Really, and how's that farmer Brown?" > "Got me right here a screamer - broadcasts a noise so powerful that it > reduces 'em to quivering pools of pain. Then, I just walk right up to > 'em and blow 'em away. If you cut the head off, they die right quick." > Good old Song of Thunder, eh? (I know it's not the Song of Thunder.) > > Unless pain *can* be only delivered by a being of high enough Strength. > If that demon with 10 Str hits you, it's gonna hurt. With Automatic Success > (ignore this bit) and a Fighting of /1, the demon has a to-hit of 10 +4 +1 > (assuming Corp forces of 4) = 15, giving a +3 to Power. Wow, that's sweet. > Every additional point of Fighting adds +1 Power, making these Celestials > veritable damage machines... Here crunchie, crunchie, crunchie... > > Let's see, human delivers, what... Str 4, Corp Forces 2, fighting/3 = > 2+4+3= 9. Not a bad to-hit roll, all things considered. > > -Perry > Well, punching has a default power of -3 in any event, so it's basically check digit damage that's being done in the case of our Demon. Our circle doesn't add the appropriate Forces to the roll, because it's too easy to become shit hard with only minimal skill. (As seen above.) As to the other part of this thread, personally I think that Vessels should be treated as bodies of the appropriate type in most ways. Methinks the only exceptions which should be made are those already noted, to wit, they don't need food, sleep or drink, and tend to be a lot hardier. A human Vessel suffers pain when it is hit, becomes sexually aroused in the appropriate circumstances (though since this is partly psychological, it's not as often as with actual humans), and is also not differentiable by physical examination. Or at least, the navels reference somewhere suggests that to me. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:51:16 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions > Yeah...I'm not saying they won't feel pain, but they'd be less affected by > it. Kind of like Vampires in WoD; you can HURT them, but they don't let it > get them down...they all have a high pain threshold, basically. > Actually, the way I see it, the only difference here should be in the capacity to absorb damage, measured by hits in In Nomine and the Stamina+Fortitude pool in Vampire. 3 Health Levels inflicted on a Vampire has the same effect as 3 Health Levels inflicted on a mortal, it's just usually harder to inflict those levels on a Vampire. Also, Vampires can be stunned in exactly the same way as mortals. A 4 Stamina Mortal is harder to stun than a 2 Stamina, 0 Fortitude Vampire. In In Nomine, 25% of Body hits inflicted in a strike stuns for one round. This is the same whether it is a mundane or a Celestial. But Celestials usually have more Body hits, so it usually takes more damage to stun them. But this isn't because of an intrinsic difference between Vessels and human bodies. Where the difference comes in is intangibles like heat, cold and fatigue. I'd tend to agree that Vessels, like Vampires, are not as bothered by these things as human bodies. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 07:57:29 -0500 From: Jesse Subject: Re: IN> Another movie trailer >< Katie locks up the library as she leaves. She has dyed scarlet hair. >She gets into a battered Ford Escort with 'L' plates and drives off at >breakneck speed, swerving all over the road. > >< Quick shots of the recruits failing pitifully at various training >exercises. Tom falls off a balance beam. Katie almost takes her >instructors eye out with a bow and arrow. Ian puts down a sword >and patiently explains "I can't use this. It might hurt someone."> >< Katie sprints up the marble steps and into the main hall, where the >others are milling around and waves a piece of paper, "Hey guys! I >passed my driving test!" >Tom looks heavenwards, "OK... now I believe in miracles!" > > >< Fade to black > My RA here at the dorm is named Katie. I could not stop picturing her driving like a bat out of Hell, in red hair. Extremly surreal. - -Jesse ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 07:46:24 -0700 (MST) From: Jason Corley Subject: IN> Method of Killing Angels Don't forget the Firesign Theatre's method of choice: "Many years ago it was believed that the Christ child wandered the streets and Christmas Eve, looking for someone who would take Him in. It was a tradition at time for people to put candles in their windows, to guide his footsteps. It was also a tradition to welcome strangers on that night, attracted to the light, like moths." "Well, I think that was a properly religious opening, to this properly religious show." "Yes, I think so." "Today's scripture is from the book of Peter of Punter. Punter Chapter five verse twelve: 'All we have to fear is me.'" "Don't forget to tell them about the candles." "Oh, yes, you can buy those candles we spoke about. Here's a letter from a satisfied radio viewer: 'When the wife and I woke up, there they were, all piled up against the window. We dragged them inside, fileted them, and by gosh we're going to have them for dinner tonight. That is so good, I am so glad I ordered your candles.'...." Jason paraphrasing but who cares at this point? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:30:58 -0500 From: johnk@lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> Is it as easy as it seems to make Servitor of Fire On Dec 12, 3:54pm, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> Is it as easy as it seems to make Servitor of Fire > At 3:02 PM -0500 12/12/97, Dan Rice Game Master at Large wrote: > >If an angel loses track of the person they have to punish? I say this > >because they will keep on getting dissonance unless they can find them? > >So if you hide that person they will fall quite quickly won't they. > > It is, unfortunately, not entirely clear whether the > time limit is "pass this, and get dissonance in gobs" or "take > one note of dissonance, whether you leave off for a year or > only a day". Karakash, what do you think? It only says "_a_ note of dissonance" so I'd vote that it's only one no matter how long it takes. No other Band/Choir has dissonance conditions that continually rack up like that one would! - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:33:19 -0500 From: johnk@lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> Is it as easy as it seems to make Servitor of Fire > >"Gabriel does not insist that her angels cleans the earth of every human > >louse they encounter- but each time they finish with one, they must deal > >with the very next one they meet." > > > >I read this as "Gabriel doesn't insist that her angels cleanse the earth, > >but if you don't think that's exactly what she wants, you won't last long." > > They don't backlog, I think is what it means. If you meet five > cruel people while working on your curent target, you don't have > to go and deal with *them* -- you deal with the *next* one who > crosses your path, and those five are safe enough to ignore. > > So once you've dealt with someone, you can safely ascend or run > around doing some business that might take a little while but > won't get you where cruel people are around. Exactly (I think I've answered this on the list before) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:35:46 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> New Batch of History Stuff Joanna Hart writes: "Was the God of the Hebrews really the first patriarchal god/ society? I think some of the Achaean Greeks did a similar purge on older Greek cultures" As far as I know, ALL cultures, throughout history, have been "patriarchal" to one degree or another, with only a few tiny and specialized exceptions. It is my impression that the ancient, egalitarian or matriarchal society peacefully worshipping a Triple Mother Goddess until overthrown by rapacious patriarchals is simply a myth, the latest in a long line of variations on the Good Old Days. Now, that said, it is by no means the case that all societies throughout history were EQUALLY patriarchal, and the nature and flavor of male dominance varies enormously. So, though I don't think there was ever a universal or even widespread worship of a single Triple Mother, I *do* think that just about all ancient civilizations had pantheons that included very important goddesses. So, for instance, ancient Egypt was certainly patriarchal -- there were only three or four ruling queens in all its history, and one of them always showed up in the carvings wearing the standard rope-like pharaonic beard -- but Isis and Hathor and Bast were very important and well-beloved goddesses, priestesses were powerful people, women owned property and ran businesses, and while a man inherited his job from his father, he inherited his property from his mother, etc. The Achean Greek may have been a more patriarchal society conquering a less patriarchal one. We have next to no solid data about their predecessors. It may have been gradual immigration more than conquering, or a mixture over a few centuries. Ditto the Aryan invasion/migration into India. In both cases, the settled, agricultural people *seem* to have had more important goddesses than the nomadic new arrivals. But it doesn't mean the agriculturals had a supreme goddess, or that the nomads had no goddesses. Mark D. Eddy writes: "El Shaddai, literally, means "God with Breasts" with the strong implication of "Lactating Breasts." The modern translation is "God who supplies." Interesting stuff." Uh. As a general cautionary note, remember that words change meaning over time. Maybe "shaddai" did mean something like "lactating" at one time, but did it mean that when it was first made into an epithet of God's? Someone asked about the history of "anti-sexuality" in Christianity. Christians didn't invent it; it was all around long before Christianity showed up. If I'd blame anyone, I'd blame the Gnostics. They are a cluster of sects, including Christian and pagan ones, that had as one of their common ideas that the creation of the material world, including the human body, was a bad idea, done by an evil or foolish spirit, and that, in general matter and flesh were Bad and spirit was Good. But even they were only purifying an impulse found lots of places, that you can purify yourself or build up power or spiritual credit or something, by suffering. I *do* think the Gnostics were the channel by which this attitude chiefly infected Christianity, which did not have a lot of it to begin with. Since then, attitudes toward the flesh and physical pleasure have fluctuated through European history. Asceticism was "in" a lot after the Black Death, I think. Then things got gradually looser until the Reformation. This started a long, slow rise in the popularity of asceticism and stuffiness that crested in the reign of Queen Victoria. Since then rebelling against Victorian attitudes has become a nearly fossilized institution in the West. But please note that the above is my own amature reading of history, and even at that is a gross over-simplification of what I know. I'm pretty sure that Western Civilization has been more or less schizo on the relative merits of discipline and pleasure forEVER, and I am moderately sure that all humanity is in the same boat. I *do* know that India, for instance, has a long history of asceticism. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:46:10 -0500 From: johnk@lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> Kyriotates and Vessels > > Anyway, it doesn't say anywhere that Kyriotates have to be in more than > > one place at once, just that they can be. It's like saying Seraphs have to > > be using their resonance for truth all the time, if you ask me. > They do; Seraphs -can't- lie. It's dissonant for them, because > their Resonance is for truth. "A Kyriotate's Resonance is for > multiplicity." It's one of the first things it says about them. That doesn't mean they are using their resonance for truth, just that they can't lie (i.e. invoke their _dissonance). A Kyrio's dissonance is for damage their host. Besides, I read the resonance for multiplicity that they tend not to stick to any single host for any long length of time (with certain exceptions). You can have a multiplicity of viewpoints, one at a time, as easily as you can have them all at once. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 11:04:34 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine : Movie 2 Trailer Yeah! The coolest part about this is that it stars my favorite Angel of War, Rigziel, and his big ass-kicking Axe of Lots of Death! :) My NPCs spread like some sort of bad case of the flu... even into movie trailers not written by me. Which is cool, because now *I* don't have to write one. - - Em ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #514 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.