From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Dec 17 22:03:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA27621 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 22:03:08 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id VAA26129 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 21:45:31 -0600 Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 21:45:31 -0600 Message-Id: <199712180345.VAA26129@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #524 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, December 17 1997 Volume 01 : Number 524 In this digest: Re: IN> Silly little rules rape Re: IN> I need advice and answers Re: IN> Is it as easy as it seems to make Servitor of Fire Malkakim & Evil (Re: IN> capturing an angel) Re: DVPBEM Fluff (Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions) Re: IN> Soldiers of God question Re: IN> Soldiers of God question Re: IN> In Anime: Movie Trailer IN> Combat, HP, et al IN> Malakim & Lilim IN> Sex, Lies & Balseraphs Re: IN> Is it as easy as it seems to make Servitor of Fire IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #523 Funky Vessels (Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions) Re: IN> capturing an angel Re: IN> Combat, HP, et al Re: IN> Soldiers of God question IN> Unorthodox enemies Re: Re: IN> Silly little rules rape Re: Re: IN> capturing an angel Re: IN> Soldiers of God question Re: IN> IN Anime movie trailer : 2 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 19:40:04 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Silly little rules rape At 3:43 PM +0000 12/17/97, Kevin Walsh wrote: >> >>> [...] the Balseraph of Fate attunement, [...] Bright Lilim >>> [...] resonance. [...] >"If a Lilim truly repents and wishes to join the angels (see p. 60) - and >yes, it can happen - she does not become part of any angelic Choir. There >is none corresponding to her Band." (p. 148) > >On p. 172, it says... >"Kronos' Balseraphs, at character creation may choose to emulate the >resonance of any one _Choir_ of angel." (My own emphasis.)" > >It can reasonably be argued that Bright Lilim do not constitute a Choir, >simply members of their Band who happen to be Bright, though it presents >the small problem of being now able to talk about a Band of Angels. This is what I would probably use first, and then Karakash's backup of "no Lilim duplication". (Band of Angels. I like it...) Ahem. Yes. Lilim do not turn into anything. They are still Lilim. (Every other demon turns into something else, and has a resonance/nature change. Lilim don't -- they acquire an Archangel's dissonance conditions, but their personal nature dissonance conditions don't alter.) >[...] And of course it does say on page 150 "Other Princes have >engendered their own ideas of the perfect infernal seductress, but no one >can duplicate the Lilim". > >On a tangentially related issue, has anyone else noticed the similarity >between the Malakite and Lilite resonances? Oh, quite. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 19:29:39 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> I need advice and answers At 9:29 AM +0000 12/16/97, Kevin Walsh wrote: >> >2) Why is Coprporeal/Ethereal/Celestial Forces added to hand-to-hand combat >> >skills but not to ranged weapon skills or non-combat skills? >> >> I wasn't around for that bit of game-mechanics. I *think* it may >> have been because a Strength 12, Vessel/6 critter has 144 body hits. >> Owch. Gotta get those CDs up so you can actually have a prayer >> of vessel-killing a monster like that in any sort of finite time. >> >Or you could have one person in the team with Ethereal or Celestial >Entropy who will laugh his/her head off as (s)he blasts the imbecile who >thought it was a useful idea to have 3 non-Corporeal Forces. Well, the one *I* was thinking of was Duke Hamet, from the Feast of Blades adventure in the GM Pack. No starting-level character *there*. And then there was the fight we had with Huzzriel -- we took off about 30-40 hits, between the Ofanite with Generator (and a van), and the Kyriotate of Jean with NC: Acid and a habit of possessing people's clothes... And Huzzie had some 40-50 hits left by the time we fled the scene because the mundane cops were showing up. With 9-Forcers or so, yeah, there are trickier ways around things. With 12+ Forcers? Owch. Owch. Owch. At 2:33 PM +0200 12/16/97, Lassi Seppala wrote: >[five-second turns] >>Okay, this is the "you are actually attacking all the time, >>but you roll once to see if in all the feinting and stuff you >>actually land a hit" sort of rule. [...] > >So you are attacking all the time with your Magnum .44 but only manage to >fire once in five seconds. Because aiming isn't included in those five >seconds this sounds a little strange. Hrm. True. Aiming and compensating for dodging? >>If you don't like 5-second combat rounds, adjust to 1/2/3/4/10/30 >>second combat rounds to suit. The Malakim in Black will not mind. > >I think I will. > >Thanks. No problem. If one of those works out better, drop a note to that effect. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 18:14:58 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Is it as easy as it seems to make Servitor of Fire At 6:57 PM -0600 12/15/97, Redneck Gaijin wrote: >>[Did I mention I'm doing this as a GM, not LE? I'm doing it now. GM.] >> >>At 1:36 PM -0600 12/15/97, Redneck Gaijin wrote: [...] >> This is a GM call! The GM sets the threshold of "lock on" >>(if you use lock-on) or even the threshold of "cruel", and therefore >>is the sole determinant of how much leeway a Servitor of Gaby has to >>mess around. [...] >What I want is a Servitor who can pick and choose their target at will, >without random chance slapping them with Dissonance. That's why I don't like >the 'lock-on' concept. So don't use it! >>>>Actually, because of this, I might very well consider giving them >>>>a "one dissonance per cruel ignored -- and if the angel gives up >>>>trying, the dissonance stays *and* the Current Target slot becomes >>>>empty." Or a "one dissonance for ever multiple of the time period." >>> >>>The former is far too easy- in fact, it would largely eliminate the >>>mechanical usefulness of the 'focus.' >> >>What, now you argue for *more* strict stuff? >outrage> > >Arguing against apparent inconsistency in your own concepts. }:-{D I sometimes have to sit down and thing about things very very carefully. Which is what I'm doing right now. I waffle until I get something I like. It's my Gemni Moon. >>>One wonders, very severely, about Malakim in general on this... [...] >> >>Well, obviously there's no real catagory of "Cruel to demons" >>in there? > >If you work for Novalis... But we're talking Gaby here -- none of hers have a "Sense cruelty to demons" ability. >>Hm... I think that only Kyriotates would be in any >>sort of trouble there. Maybe Seraphim. But this is, again, a >>GM call about whether or not they count as *cruel*. Do they >>enjoy causing pain, or do they enjoy defeating evil as they were >>made to do? And what's the appropriate response? It might be as >>simple as finding some way to give a firey lecture about sinking >>to the level of demons. > >It depends on definition. My definition of cruelty is 'deriving pleasure >from the suffering of others.' Gabi's Servitors don't have to worry about >cruelty to demons- IIRC, that's specifically permissible- but cruelty to >humans, or to other Angels, I could see in Angels who see themselves as >promoting God's Will. I think this comes up against how the GM is seeing things again. In our universe, even the Dominicans aren't generally *enjoying* being mean to various angels. It's just their job to make sure that they don't come to a Bad End, and they'll do what they need to and get satisfaction at a job well done. They don't go down and poke Creationers with hot pokers and ask them to yell for their Boss and *enjoy* it. David's lot might do something "hard" to someone, but they aren't enjoying doing the painful thing -- they're merely acting as the Word they serve dictates, and the pleasure they take is in *overcoming* those hardships, or in having the "victim" do so. (Unless it's a demon, of course.) >Amazingly enough, I don't think Dommie is cruel. He's callous, but not cruel. I'm not even sure "callous" is the word I'd use. Focused. Black-and-white. Ruthless, even. But not callous, quite. The trial, the Judgment, is all. >>[And Laurence didn't say "This is God's Plan" -- he said, "This is >>the best I've seen, and I think it will be the way to get the most >>humans on the right path." He tried to manipulate events to make >>it better, after all -- this isn't a "This Is God's Plan" sort of >>thing to do... ] > >It's the place of Angels to advance God's Plan. When human hands stray from >the Path of Righteousness into the Poison Ivy of Corruption, one must take >out the Weed Whacker of Purity and guide the misled and itchy back towards >the Light of Calamine Lotion! }:-{D ...... You're very strange. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 19:29:21 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Malkakim & Evil (Re: IN> capturing an angel) At 3:26 PM +0100 12/17/97, d.ranzato@bpa.vnu.com wrote: >On another note, is it possible that a Malakim talks to a demon and >afterwards let the demon go away, claiming that one day he will destroy >this evil? Or is this dissonant for a Malakim. As soon as possible, pick up the APG, which has a discussion about Malakim and evil and stuff... Ways to handle... If a Malakite's Superior says, "Suffer that demon to live unless he starts doing [x]," then the Malakite can say, "Yessir" and suffer no dissonance. It is no longer *his* choice. (And if his Archangel has said, "You take orders from Joe Elohite," then Joe Elohite can do this trick too. My DV-PBEM Malakite specifically requested the leader of the mission to order "no demon-attacking unless we have to" to make sure that there weren't any gray areas that might creep up and cause dissonance later.) There is no real time-limit to the sufferance thing -- they *can* take time to stalk, plan, and get good info about the target, so that they can make the best attack possible. If the Malakite *gives up* this stalking, then is the time for dissonance. (I think your example falls into this catagory -- *if* the Malakite really is going to track down the demon after it leaves!) On APG49, "A *temporary* alliance that offers an opportunity to erase greater evil is acceptable." (Just don't hang around afters, if you're a demon.) "If a Malakite is forced to choose *which* of 2 evils will escape, he earns no dissonance for choosing the lesser!" If a demon is headed towards redemption, and a Malakite's honor picks that up, then the demon is likely not "evil"! - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 19:10:01 -0600 (CST) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: DVPBEM Fluff (Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions) >At 12:16 PM -0500 12/16/97, Perry M. Lloyd wrote: >>Redneck said: >>>(And happy day, I just got my brand new Rand McNally road atlas today, which >>>means I'm all set to send the DVPBEM group on a nice loooooong stroll... >>>far, far, far away from that lone existing Tether... }:-{D) >> >>Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! >> >>"This is gunna suck." :) > >Hey, at least you're gonna be alive to take that roadtrip. This >is still debatable for me at the moment... (Non-obvious death-vows: >Never abandon a comrade to capture; always be the last to retreat. > >Now, if Archangels are supposed to be so smart, why didn't this one >give his kid a @$%#$ vessel to retreat to???) > Because Archangels are smart, not infallible. Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | "It's Christmas in Heaven, http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | there's great shows on TV; c/o White Lightning Productions | the Sound of Music twice an hour http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | and Jaws I, II and III." Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- A Nybbas Christmas http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 20:33:56 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Soldiers of God question At 4:19 PM -0800 12/17/97, Scott Jones wrote: >[...] My question is are there any guidlines >about how a normal human or a soldier of god can become an Angel. Just >wondering. Thanks. They can't. Humans do not turn into celestials. (The current speculation on this list is that Lilith is what happens when you give a human a Word -- sort of a hyperSaint kind of thing...) Humans *can* become Saints (see Night Music), which is close, but they still don't get resonances or worry about dissonance. There *may* be ways for demons to "eat" the memories of a human soul, but this basically destroys the human while making the memories available to the demon -- the personality of the demon is not changed very much, if at all, and the human is dead. Or you could rule that your PCs are all Children of the Grigori, and are going to find out some interesting things about themselves when they hit 9 Forces and "fledge." (Or you could ignore canon entirely, it being your game. The Malakim in Black will not mind.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:37:13 -0800 From: "Scott Jones" Subject: Re: IN> Soldiers of God question Is there any "real" stats for the children of Grigory? The only book I have currently is the hardbound rules. Thanks :) - -----Original Message----- From: Elizabeth McCoy >Or you could rule that your PCs are all Children of the Grigori, >and are going to find out some interesting things about themselves >when they hit 9 Forces and "fledge." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 20:47:05 -0500 (EST) From: Kim Foster Subject: Re: IN> In Anime: Movie Trailer >>MIHOSHI: I'm looking for the Renegade demon Ryoko on behalf of the Game. >>Have you seen her? > >Mihoshi, a *Lilim*? Hey, I thought being a Lil meant one had to >have *brains*!! Not just luck... (I think she's an Ofanite, myself. >She's the very un-acknowledged result of Novalis actually getting >her way with Dommie, you see...) > ] Sufficently advanced luck is indistinguishable from intelligence. Just ask the Pink Panther.... ok... maybe not... I know violence doesn't solve all problems... But it sure feels good! Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 21:10:17 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Combat, HP, et al >>>Here's a new idea, seems kind of simple to me: Limit a Character's Vessel level to no more than his Corporeal Forces. Comments?<<< Why? - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 21:10:19 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Malakim & Lilim >>>One more bit of correspondance - both are originally the creation of a single superior. The Malakim are from Uriel, the Lilim are from Lilith.<<< No. Uriel did not create the Malakim -- he was just the first angel to *become* a Malakite. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 21:10:20 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Sex, Lies & Balseraphs >>>Well, I'd just point out that the Balseraph attunement is to get someone else to believe what the Balseraph says.<<< In order to do that, the Balseraph has to believe it himself. Balseraphs DO believe whatever they say is true -- they only need to believe it's true for the few seconds it takes the words to pass through their lips, but like Seraphim, a Balseraph never lies -- from his *own* perspective! If a Balseraph says he wants to redeem, then at least as long as he is applying his resonance, he really, truly, wants to redeem -- even though somewhere in his twisted psyche he knows this is just a line to feed the Malakite, he cannot admit that even to himself or he will take dissonance. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 20:21:18 -0600 (CST) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Is it as easy as it seems to make Servitor of Fire >>>>>Actually, because of this, I might very well consider giving them >>>>>a "one dissonance per cruel ignored -- and if the angel gives up >>>>>trying, the dissonance stays *and* the Current Target slot becomes >>>>>empty." Or a "one dissonance for ever multiple of the time period." >>>> >>>>The former is far too easy- in fact, it would largely eliminate the >>>>mechanical usefulness of the 'focus.' >>> >>>What, now you argue for *more* strict stuff? >>outrage> >> >>Arguing against apparent inconsistency in your own concepts. }:-{D > >I sometimes have to sit down and thing about things very very >carefully. Which is what I'm doing right now. I waffle until >I get something I like. It's my Gemni Moon. Hm. *shrug* I'm a Capricorn, that's nearly all I know. >I think this comes up against how the GM is seeing things again. >In our universe, even the Dominicans aren't generally *enjoying* >being mean to various angels. It's just their job to make sure >that they don't come to a Bad End, and they'll do what they need >to and get satisfaction at a job well done. They don't go down >and poke Creationers with hot pokers and ask them to yell for their >Boss and *enjoy* it. You don't have to torture someone to be cruel. A Servitor of Judgement who turns in a Creationer for the Inquisition is cruel if he derives pleasure from sending the angel off to the Question. >>>[And Laurence didn't say "This is God's Plan" -- he said, "This is >>>the best I've seen, and I think it will be the way to get the most >>>humans on the right path." He tried to manipulate events to make >>>it better, after all -- this isn't a "This Is God's Plan" sort of >>>thing to do... ] >> >>It's the place of Angels to advance God's Plan. When human hands stray from >>the Path of Righteousness into the Poison Ivy of Corruption, one must take >>out the Weed Whacker of Purity and guide the misled and itchy back towards >>the Light of Calamine Lotion! }:-{D > >...... You're very strange. THANK YOU. :) Seriously, I was making a point, realised I was headed for a Tick Moment, and figured, what the hell. }:-{D Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | "It's Christmas in Heaven, http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | there's great shows on TV; c/o White Lightning Productions | the Sound of Music twice an hour http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | and Jaws I, II and III." Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- A Nybbas Christmas http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 21:29:00 EST From: Neel Krishnaswami Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #523 : Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:02:47 -0500 (EST) : From: Emily Dresner : Subject: Re: IN> Silly little rules rape : : I have about a dozen emails archived on my favorite subject, why "Lilim : aren't very evil and Malakim are really demons", from a few months ago. : It is, indeed, my very favorite argument, in which I end up writing : piles and piles of philosophical nonsense. We've been through this once. : Dunno if my hands or my sanity can take it again, so I suggest poking : through the mail list digest archives. : : Wait... I have sanity? Ah, so then it's okay to unveil why in my campaign, Marc hates Lilim, and is the only Archangel that flatly refuses to accept them as servitors. :) Marc hates Lilim because they are fundamentally incompatible with the divine word of Trade. IMC, capital-T Trade happens when two (or more) people come to an agreement without constraint or coercion. Since the core of the Lilim resonance is the coercive power of the geas, Marc sees this as a perversion of his word and therefore refuses to employ the Lilim. (Okay, if a Lilim promised to never lay another geas, ever, Marc might hire her, but only a masochist -- I mean, dedicated roleplayer -- would want to try it.) (I had to rewrite the Divine Contract servitor attunement, to make it fit my campaign better. Now, it functions like a super-rite: up to once a day, an angel can invoke the attunement on a freely-entered into commercial transaction and receive Essence proportional to the log of the value of the deal. That's 1 Essence for deals up to 10 dollars, 2 Essence for up to $100, 3 for up to 1000, and so on. Yes, this means that an angel of Marc can regenerate Essence by ordering pizza, as long as he doesn't stiff the delivery boy.) Oddly, it's Dominic, and to a lesser extent Michael, who end up with the Bright Lilim IMC. But an explanation would be a too-long digression. - ---- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 21:14:48 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Funky Vessels (Re: IN> Other Vessel Questions) At 2:29 PM +0000 12/16/97, Hart, Joanna wrote: >>Servitors of Andrealphus >>probably have complete control over certain bits of anatomy -- and >>may have extra muscle-groups for more, ah, precise control! > > >Ditto for servitors of Beleth... *They* have *teeth*. In odd places. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 05:30:27 -0500 From: Frank Lazar Subject: Re: IN> capturing an angel At 05:38 PM +0000 12/16/1986, Derek Colanduno wrote: > >Well, being the GM you are the God of your own universe. Create some special >'shakels' that bind Celestials and do not allow them to use their Songs or >change forms while they are bound. Maybe an artifact that the Vampires >obtained from... *somewhere*. You may want to make sure that they are one >shot items so when the players finally free the Angel, the shakels break or >something along those lines... You don't really want players to run around >with the shakels of doom do you? ;) Most graceful way to do that would be to making breaking them the only way to release their comrade. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | _ | | We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers. /_\ | | We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, // \\ | | Crystal and scanner, holographic demons, \\ //___\\ | | And invocations of equations. \\ // \\ | | \\__// \\ | | These are the tools we employ. And we know... many things. \\ | | \\ | | | Frank Lazar http://www.interactive.net/~fmlazar | \\ | - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 20:48:05 -0600 (CST) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Combat, HP, et al >>>>Here's a new idea, seems kind of simple to me: > >Limit a Character's Vessel level to no more than his Corporeal Forces. > >Comments?<<< > > >Why? > The idea was to put a brake on people going for Vessel/4/5/6, but now that I think about it, it really penalizes the 1 and 2 Corpforcers. Nevermind. ^_^; Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | "It's Christmas in Heaven, http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | there's great shows on TV; c/o White Lightning Productions | the Sound of Music twice an hour http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | and Jaws I, II and III." Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- A Nybbas Christmas http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 22:15:37 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Soldiers of God question At 5:37 PM -0800 12/17/97, Scott Jones wrote: >Is there any "real" stats for the children of Grigory? The only book I have >currently is the hardbound rules. Thanks :) Currently, no. In the future? ....maybe. But if you make it up as you go along, you'll probably be okay. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 21:58:05 EST From: Neel Krishnaswami Subject: IN> Unorthodox enemies In Nomine is a great game, but one of the things that bugs me about the game is that the oppositions between the archangels and Demon Princes are rather predictable. I mean, Michael and Baal, Blandine and Beleth, Yves and Kronos, Asmodeus and Dominic, and Gabriel and Belial are kind of predictable enmities. Sometimes you want that Servitor of Dreams to run into someone other than yet another of Beleth's servitors. So I thought about it some, and tried to come up with some less likely pairings. Enough blather, though. It's ordered by archangel, with a list of who the archangel dislikes and why. If there's enough demand, I'll do a similar list for the Demon Princes. Blandine Enemies: Kronos, Vapula Kronos is one Blandine's most persistent enemies. Blandine is the archangel most concerned with hope, and Kronos works relentlessly to pervert and destroy hope. As a result, Blandine and Kronos's celestial agents clash frequently. Vapula is an enemy for similar reasons. He offers false hopes to mankind, and on top of that twists the dreams of scientists and engineers to inspire the creation of devices that add to mankind's suffering. Blandine hates Vapula with a passion. David: Enemies: Baal, Asmodeus David is most enraged by the corruption of unity and order. Asmodeus and Baal both are among the most hierarchical of the Demon Princes, and David finds Asmodeus's bureaucracies and Baal's strict chains of command to be targets most deserving of the tender attention of his Malakim. Baal relishes the challenge David presents to him, and spends a great deal of time sending his demons to do battle with David's angels. Asmodeus, on the other hand, regards David as a waste of his time, and spends a great deal of effort passing information about Baal's demons to David's agents, to keep both of them busy. Dominic Enemies: Lilith, Malphas Dominic does not spend all his time rooting out corruption in the Host. A great deal of his time is spent trying to promote justice and fairness on Earth, and as a result he runs into constant opposition from both Lilith and Malphas. As a general rule, Malphas's demons work to corrupt the structures of law, and Lilith's servants work to overthrow them. Either way, the weak and the powerless lose out, and Dominic's angels work to preserve the structures that protect them from the caprice of the mighty. Eli Enemies: Haagenti, Saminga Eli isn't always completely on top of things, but he knows what he doesn't like. Haagenti's selfish Gluttony would hide true Creation from public view, and the the final dissolution Saminga seeks is utterly opposed to Nonetheless, battles between the angels of Creation and the demons of Gluttony and Death don't tend to get quite as vicious as some of the other rivalries. None of the principals are very organized or coherent as angels and demons go... Gabriel Enemies: Nybbas, Beleth Gabriel carries the spark of divine inspiration within her, and is therefore opposed to any demon who seeks to extinguish human striving. Nybbas, who seeks to turn humans into passive observers accepting every word the television and Internet bring them, clashes often with angels of Gabriel, who seek to fan the spark of inspiration. Beleth tries to cow mankind into terrified submission to her whims. This angers her even more than Nybbas's activity does, and she has given standing orders to her angels to show the demons of Nightmares what fear really is. Janus Enemies: Asmodeus, Malphas The archangel of Wind represents change and possibility. He naturally opposes the arbitrary rules imposed on mankind by the Prince of the Game, and fights to save mankind from the subtle and devious encroachments of pointless regulations and needless bureaucracy. Nonetheless, the angels of Wind are not out to erode the bonds of love and trust that ties mankind together. A Hobbesian war of all against all is as predictable and awful as any totalitarian government, and Janus's servitors work to prevent that from coming into being. Jordi Enemies: Vapula, Belial Jordi, archangel of animals, has as his special duty the preservation of the the natural world. Jordi specially targets Vapula's dark Satanic mills for destruction, because they pollute and corrupt the natural world without even offering any benefits to anyone. Vapula regards Jordi as a serious threat and his demons have learned that they can sometimes avoid the blame for a screw-up by blaming Jordi. Though nature is red in tooth and claw, there is rarely any pointless violence. Belial's activities cause destruction and death without feeding any other parts of nature. Belial for his parts doesn't harbor any special hatred for Jordi, but the generalized hatred his demons display is more than enough. Jean Enemies: Nybbas, Malphas Jean is not into instant gratification; in his view, whatever is worth having is worth working for. Happily, it turns out that Nybbas's cameras, satellite networks, and cable lines are all wonderfully vulnerable to the high-tech, low-subtlety corrections that the angels of Lightning are famous for. Jean likes civilization. He likes the fact that millions of people come together to build vast networks and organizations that produce things that raise the standard of living far above what could be achieved alone. (In this, he has a staunch ally in Marc.) He doesn't like are efforts to tear it all down, efforts that leave mankind at the mercy of any hostile force. He doesn't like Malphas. And what does Lightning do to people it doesn't like..? Laurence Enemies: Baal More than Michael, Laurence is the natural enemy of the Demon Prince of the War. Laurence is the commander of the Host, and has a natural interest in foiling the plans of the leader of the Infernal legions. Their enmity is made worse by their similarity -- both are noted for the rigidity of their discipline and the strict hierarchy among of their servitors. Marc Enemies: Nybbas, Valefor For trade to occur, there must be honesty and trust between the principals. Nybbas and Valefor work directly to undermine the basis on which mutually- beneficial dealing can occur. Thanks to Nybbas's work, Hollywood contracts are proverbial for their vicious time-bombs and hidden clauses. It is well-known that anyone who accepts a percentage of net profit will never a dime, and Marc's angels work hard to prevent this sort of rot from infecting the rest of the business world. Still worse are the activities of the demons of Theft. The demons of Theft work to tear down any idea of property beyond the word "Mine!" Effective commerce requires that *everyone's* property rights be respected. His angels find Valefor's efforts to confuse charity and theft especially odious. Michael: Enemies: Lucifer(!), Beleth Lucifer has never forgotten the angel who cast him from Heaven into the Pit. It is known that any demon who kills one of Michael's angels receives the special attention of the Prince of Darkness. Given the danger of dealing with the Father of Lies, it's questionable whether this is a good thing for the demon in question, but there are always demons willing to go for the brass ring. Michael, patron of heroes, harbors a special dislike for the Demon Princess who specializes in wearing down individuals. To paraphrase C.S. Lewis, all the virtues are courage in the moment of decision, and this is exactly the bravery that Beleth makes the greatest effort to destroy. Michael's angels are often out of their depth in the Marches, but they do not hesitate in confronting Nightmares and defending humanity from them. Novalis: Enemies: Andrealphus, Saminga The archangel of Flowers understands desire and beauty. This is why Novalis expends so much effort on Andrealphus. Convinced that the Demon Prince of Lust is one of the most redeemable of the Demon Princes, she spends a great deal of effort in dealing with his plans. Her mercy for Andrealphus does not extend to sanctioning or tolerating his works; Novalis's angels work to demonstrate the superiority of honest affection to the demons of Lust. Saminga, to the extent that he notices the archangels, hates Novalis for the regeneration and new growth she represents. Novalis, though she is slow to anger and understanding of the role of death in nature, has announced that it is time to prune back the Prince of Death, and her angels challenge Death through bringing new life into the world. Yves: Enemies: Asmodeus, Kobal An evil that dresses in black, shouts its defiance, and twirls its mustachio is ultimately not very dangerous. It is not dangerous because it is obvious, and obvious evil holds little attraction for anyone past adolescence. Danger lies in the quiet evils: the bureaucrats who keep the trains running on time, though they be carrying people to the death camps. This is the evil Asmodeus inflicts on humanity, the evil of Eichmann, the evil of the apparatchiks. There is a Jesuit saying that doubt is ultimately good for faith, because doubt is what drives men to think up proofs. Yves appreciates the truth of this aphorism, and the gentle patience his angels display towards hesitance and questioning has led many to God. What disturbs the archangel of Destiny most about the Demon Prince of Dark Humor is that he doesn't care. The laughter of Kobal is the laughter that mocks, and does not care about the question, let alone the answers. - ---- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 21:57:38 EST From: MarkDEddy Subject: Re: Re: IN> Silly little rules rape In a message dated 12/17/97 5:05:15 PM, you wrote: >It can reasonably be argued that Bright Lilim do not constitute a Choir, >simply members of their Band who happen to be Bright, though it presents >the small problem of being now able to talk about a Band of Angels. "Well, I looked over Jordan, And a-what did I see? (Comin' for to carry me home!) But a band of angels Comin' after me... (Comin' for to carry me home...)" Swing low, indeed! Mark (HeHeHe!-Salacious Crumb cackle) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 22:06:08 EST From: MarkDEddy Subject: Re: Re: IN> capturing an angel In a message dated 12/17/97 5:25:20 PM, you wrote: >At the GM's evil option, certain drugs (LSD?) may thwart a >celestial's ability to go celestial. Some may even leave him >groggy but functional otherwise. Actually, I'd say that a Celestial on LSD is catapulted straight into the Marches (Do not pass go, etc....), leaving only the vessel-shell. Mark(The foot of Beleth's Tower? Bummer of a trip, man...) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 22:32:15 -0500 From: Frank Lazar Subject: Re: IN> Soldiers of God question >At 4:19 PM -0800 12/17/97, Scott Jones wrote: >>[...] My question is are there any guidlines >>about how a normal human or a soldier of god can become an Angel. Just >>wondering. Thanks. > >They can't. Humans do not turn into celestials. (The current >speculation on this list is that Lilith is what happens when >you give a human a Word -- sort of a hyperSaint kind of thing...) > Lilith is also not a descendant of Adam and Eve who condemmed their descendants into a Fallen state, it you take one way of considering it. The account describing the Eden experiment didnt term Lilith's opting out of the arrangement as a sin in and of itself. Also Lucifer by definition is an order of being beyond the Demon Princes, perhaps even Kronos, being God's Adversary, so by investing Lilith with Dark Essence he performed a unique action on a unique being, the one Unfallen Human, so it could only be described as a unique event. Looking at the Dark Victory scenario in this analysis, I'd also say that even if she Repented, she'd still be an Archangel in name only. She might become an example of what God ultimately intends for Humankind, a status above that of the angels themselves. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | _ | | We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers. /_\ | | We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, // \\ | | Crystal and scanner, holographic demons, \\ //___\\ | | And invocations of equations. \\ // \\ | | \\__// \\ | | These are the tools we employ. And we know... many things. \\ | | \\ | | | Frank Lazar http://www.interactive.net/~fmlazar | \\ | - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 22:38:47 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Kinney Subject: Re: IN> IN Anime movie trailer : 2 On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Japanese animation. Stuff like G-Force, or Sailor Moon. Only > subtitled and not plot-hacked to death. (What plot there is -- > You knew I'd eventually drop my two bits into this, right? :-) A young man is walking down a street, a satchel thrown back over his shoulder. Floating in the air behind him is a green-haired girl in a sailor-style school uniform. NARRATOR: It was another calm day at Tomobiki High... A strikingly beautiful celestial looks down from one of the nearby walls, watching them pass by; her features harden as she looks at the floating girl. NARRATOR: But you don't really believe that, do you? The young mans parents. The father sits at a table in kimono, hidden behind newspapers. The mother slumps next to him. MOTHER: I just pray that Ataru gets his life straight. The girl, now in tiger-stripe bikini, and the celstial, spar in the air, the Cherub with a flaming sword, the girl throwing lightning. The young man, Ataru, clings to the Cherub's leg. ILIANA: I am Iliana, Cherub of Yves, and this man is under *my* protection. *You*, foul demon... She points in the face of the girl, Lum, who blinks *plink* *plink* at the accusation. ILIANA: Will depart this earth, either willingly or by force. ATARU: Yeah, she obviously wants you out of the picture... Ataru's grasp moves up Iliana's leg; when she notices, she looks down at him annoyedly and conks him on the head with the hilt of her now non-flaming sword. Music crescendo Lum flies toward the screen, lightning arcing around her. LUM: Darling! In a school classroom, a group of students is led throuh what appears to be a battle plan by a bespectacled young man. MEGANE: We, the Commitee to Assure Lum's Happiness, cannot stand by and watch Moroboshi's repeated depredations... VICTORY OR DEATH! Tanks roll onto the school grounds as the tower bell rings, led by a white clad man wielding a katana. He appears agitated, even crazed. MENDOU: MOROBOSHI ATARU, THIS TIME YOU PAY! I, MENDOU SHUTARO SWEAR IT! The Cherub is lecturing Ataru. ILIANA: She's Oni, right? That's a DEMON, remember? A series of cuts, including a fly-by bombing by Mendou Family Attack Planes, a flying baby Oni (Jariten) unleashing fire breath on both Iliana and Ataru as they flee down a street, a giant tiger-cow towering over Tomobiki High School, Benten sweeping by on her space-bike sweeping Ataru up from in front of Iliana while Oyuki blows chilled winds back to slow the Celestial, Iliana pursuing Ataru as he runs for a crowd of girls screaming "Hey, girls, wanna go to heaven with me?", and finally Lum looking annoyed. LUM: Darling... Cut to a wide view of the block. What appears to be a huge fit of ball lightning explodes from one of the streets. LUM: ... you IDIOT! Urusei Yatsura theme music ("Rock the Planet") starts URUSEI YATSURA (Those Obnoxious Aliens) : IN NOMINE So, whattaya think? alberich@iglou.com | Mark Kinney | http://www.iglou.com/nations "I do not want to be devoured by a symbol of monarchy!" -- KGB Chief, "Casino Royale" ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #524 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.