From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Dec 25 19:26:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA02581 for ; Thu, 25 Dec 1997 19:26:09 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id TAA03338 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 25 Dec 1997 19:15:47 -0600 Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 19:15:47 -0600 Message-Id: <199712260115.TAA03338@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #531 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, December 25 1997 Volume 01 : Number 531 In this digest: IN> Song of Stability Re: IN> Song of Stability Re: IN> Song of Stability Re: IN> Song of Stability Re: IN> Song of Stability Re: IN> Song of Stability Re: IN> Song of Stability Re: IN> Balseraph Fluff IN> Iri, Calabite of Fire Re: IN> Sex, Lies & Balseraphs Re: IN> Song of Stability Re: IN> Balseraph Fluff IN> send any new stuff Re: IN> Song of Stability Re: IN> Balseraph Fluff IN> Zina, Free Lilim ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 15:40:17 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Song of Stability This Song is waaaay too powerful, especially to give to mortals. Granted, I also think In Nomine needs the equivalent of a "counterspell", a way for celestials to balk each others' Songs. More than likely one will be appearing in the Songbook. But it won't be something that just anyone can learn and then promptly nullify whomever he chooses with a lucky roll. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 14:54:44 -0800 (PST) From: Querent Subject: Re: IN> Song of Stability I'm a bit lost. Everyone keeps telling me how "too powerful" this thing is. When? It can't be used actively, it's purely reactionary. Also, it depends on a successful perception roll (average soldier has a perception of 4). It further depends on success of the song, which is based on Corporeal Forces. After all of that, should it happen to work (AND get a higher check digit than the original roll), the disturbance will call attention to a character with little forces, little attributes, and few points in skills. I'm mostly looking for people to give this a shot and see how it works. If it looks unbalancing, blink and look again. If it IS too unbalancing in a game, I'd love to hear input on what happened, what went right, and what went wrong. I'd also welcome any additional input pertaining to how to make this less unbalancing. It's just that I've received 10 emails now (most private, some public) saying "no, this is not good" and only one with any ideas at all about what *changes* would need to happen. In short, I'm throwing my optional rule out for playtesting and troubleshooting, not public approval. (Querent steps down from his soap box, turns, and bounces like a kangaroo back into the oblivion from whence he came.) == --Querent USELESS FACT: Paul Reiser plays the piano in the opening theme of "Mad About You". _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Dec 97 15:02:16 PST From: Christopher Paul Subject: Re: IN> Song of Stability Didn't see the original posting of the song, but I've got a pretty good idea of what it is about from what I've read. For an alternative, see my "song of counterpoint" on my IN page at: http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/soc/grads/paul/innomine/rules.htm#counter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 15:31:05 -0800 (PST) From: Querent Subject: Re: IN> Song of Stability - ---David Edelstein wrote: > > This Song is waaaay too powerful, especially to give to mortals. > > Granted, I also think In Nomine needs the equivalent of a "counterspell", a > way for celestials to balk each others' Songs. I disagree. I don't like the thought of celestials cancelling each other's actions. In fact, I wasn't so hot about the idea of anyone cancelling a celestial's actions. What I DO like is the thought that songs work because the symphony is being manipulated. What if the symphony could be manipulated to strengthen it's current state? What would that look like? What would that game like? What would that *sound* like (disturbance-wise)? I further limited it's use only to those who are an actual part of the symphony. The Soldiers. > More than likely one will be > appearing in the Songbook. But it won't be something that just anyone can > learn and then promptly nullify whomever he chooses with a lucky roll. Again, a few lucky rolls. A lucky perception roll, a lucky song roll, and a lucky check digit. Remember that if ANY of these fail, the cancellation WILL NOT HAPPEN. Let's take average Joe of God for an example: He has a Perception of 4, and 2 Corporeal forces. (average) He's sunk 4 points into the song (a bit above average, in his favor). He's trying to counter a song from a distance which makes his modified disturbance +0 (so we're just rolling against his perception). His opponent has rolled a check digit of 3 (a bit below average, again in Joe's favor.) The result? Joe of God has a 1/6 chance of detecting it in the first place. He then has a 15/36 chance of succeeding his roll. If that's successful, he's got a 2/3 chance of beating the check digit. That comes up to a 5/108 chance of all rolls succeeding. In short, Joe of God has just spent one of his 6 essence on a less than 5% probability of success. I realize looking at the power, it seems awesome, but the math is against the Soldier, not for him. This is why I've been questioning those who cry out "too powerful, too powerful!" without actually trying it and seeing how patheticly seldom it will work without pouring far more essence and/or character points into the use of such a song. == --Querent USELESS FACT: Paul Reiser plays the piano in the opening theme of "Mad About You". _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 15:30:38 -0800 From: "Scott Jones" Subject: Re: IN> Song of Stability I am going to be running a Soldiers of God game in about 2 or 3 weeks. I will work this in there to test it for you. BIZKeT - -----Original Message----- From: Querent >I'm mostly looking for people to give this a shot and see how it >works. If it looks unbalancing, blink and look again. If it IS too >unbalancing in a game, I'd love to hear input on what happened, what >went right, and what went wrong. > > --Querent ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 16:11:08 -0800 (PST) From: Querent Subject: Re: IN> Song of Stability Perfect! I'm interested in both how it changes the Soldier based game as well as how it affects Celestial based games with Soldiers thrown in. - ---Scott Jones wrote: > > I am going to be running a Soldiers of God game in about 2 or 3 weeks. I > will work this in there to test it for you. > == --Querent USELESS FACT: Paul Reiser plays the piano in the opening theme of "Mad About You". _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 19:33:41 EST From: "Perry M. Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Song of Stability >"Song of Stability (ok, it's a stupid name, offer me a better one!)" > >I don't think it's such a bod name. But if you don't like it, how >about "Song of the Natural" or "Song of Nature," since it basically >anulls the SUPERnatural? > >Or, since you want something "a little more defensive," how about >"Song of Restoration"? Or just "the Counter-Song"? Song of Correction. I was wondering, in noise suppression, there's a technique where you nullify sound with another sound, creating less overall noise. What's the nae for that. Second little thing. I haven't read all of this thread yet, so I don't know if anyone's suggested this already, but... I was wondering who might have created this song? Which band or choir? The Grigori, seems to me. This would help explain why celestials can't even use it, or be taught it... - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd "Amidst my scarcely-strifled groans, Amidst my moaning deep, I heard a voice, "Wake! Mr. Jones, You're screaming in your sleep!" -Lewis Carrol (from "Horrors"-1850) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 21:36:23 -0500 From: "Ehrbar" Subject: Re: IN> Balseraph Fluff Em wrote: > >Oh, and you can keep yours. All of mine keep drinking all the Coke. > >- - em Dear Madam, It is with great distress I note your claims about Balseraphs. As President of the Intercorporeal Brotherhood of Balseraphs Local #1232, I resent your gross generalizations and false accusations. First, I must inform you, Balseraphs do not like Coke. Actually, to be specific, we do not like Coca-Cola Classic (we all loved New Coke). Why then would we *drink* it? It is reasonable to assume that, for some reason, one of us would want or need to deny you your Coke -- but not even a Balseraph of Haagenti would consider consuming one. I'd just pour it on your carpet, myself -- if I had a need to do such a thing, which I would not, under any circumstances, really have a need or desire to do. Second, of course, even if a Balseraph *were* drinking your Coke, not *all* of your Balseraphs would be participating. If I were to make as patently false a claim as saying all 500 of the Soldiers of Hell assigned to me last week are currently cleaning my 10'x10' kitchen, you would know the statement to be false. Similarly, the idea that all of your Balseraphs could be drinking your Coke is ludicrous. Third, I know for a fact that, even if *all* of them were participating, they aren't drinking *all* the Coke. Why, I have a can of Coke in front of me right now -- *with Coke still in it*. And if you meant all *your* Coke, then I would point out that ownership is a social construct with no reality, and you should be ashamed to even think to use a posessive pronoun. Finally, I must ask you -- since we all know the reason you don't want more Balseraphs is not related to the Coke issue, why are you refusing to take on our poor, defensless, jobless bretheren? Are you just a cold, mean, Impudite without the ability to feel compassion? SHAME ON YOU! Especially during this Saturnilia/Festivus season. Please not refusal to hire more Balseraphs will, however, have *no* bearing on you future ability to hire Balseraphs, get your garbage picked up, or walk. Sincerest regards, Dogsquash President, IBB Local #1232 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 22:28:49 EST From: Neel Krishnaswami Subject: IN> Iri, Calabite of Fire Like Em, I disovered that most of my NPC demons were Balseraphs. I am endeavoring to correct this problem, and will share my efforts with the list. This one would even work as a starting character. She's a bit of a stereotype, but stereotypes to originate somewhere, right? - ---- "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." -- Terry Pratchett, Jingo Iri Calabite of Fire Corporeal Forces 4 -- Strength 8 Agility 8 Ethereal Forces 2 -- Intelligence 3 Precision 5 Celestial Forces 3 -- Will 10 Perception 2 Vessel: Vessel/2, Role/1, Status/1 (Bag lady) Skills: Fighting/5, Dodge/6, Ranged Weapon/4, Chemistry/4, Lying/5, Driving/2, Move Silently/2 Songs: Numininous Corpus(Acid)/3 Attunements: Firewalker, Calabite of Fire Discord: Discolored/4 (Skin covered with Hebrew tatoos) Appearance: Iri is a little over 5 feet tall, with a lean runner's build. She is of indeterminate race; every square inch of Iri's skin is covered in Hebrew tatoos, and she has shaved off all her hair (including eyebrows) to better show them off. If someone can read Hebrew, they will discover that her tatoos are profanity of the vilest sort, and that they are *different* each time she is encountered. Story: Iri is an unsubtle demon, even for a Calabite of Fire. Couple her firm belief that the only problems that cannot be solved with enough napalm can be solved with the Calabim resonance, to the fact that she has no ambition at all, and it is easy to understand why she is one of Belial's favorite servitors. Iri has never seriously questioned her role in the War, and, given the childlike glee she takes in destruction, is unlikely to ever do so. She uses her current role as a bag lady to terrorize the employees of missions and homeless shelters. It amuses her to demonstrate to the down-and-out that things can always get worse. Despite this, she is not an especially spiteful or malicious. She is simply unaware of the fact that other people, especially humans, exist for anything other than her amusement. She doesn't take pleasure from the suffering she inflicts -- she simply likes smashing things, and the people around her are convenient. Adventure Seed: Iri was the tiniest bit messy the last time she torched a shelter, and now there's this nasty Malakim of Michael on her case. Since Iri herself is none too bright, Belial wants the PCs to figure out how the angels caught on to what she was doing. He is worried that the angels have found some way around the disturbance-damping abilities of the Calabim of Fire. If the PCs investigate, they are going to discover that Iri did everything right -- she waited until late at night, when there were no witnesses, and made sure to leave no survivors. They are going to have a nasty time of it, too, since Iri herself is none-too-helpful, and was very very thorough about destroying all the evidence. This is consistent with both her doing her job correctly and her trying to hide the evidence. Meanwhile, there is an angry Malakim of War doing the exact same thing... The answer to the puzzle is pretty simple, actually. One of the victims at her last barbecue was a homeless old Vietnam vet. When he arrived in Heaven, his first act was to head to the Groves and tell Michael about the demon that torched the shelter he was in. Of course, figuring this out will be a bit of a problem. - ---- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 22:43:10 EST From: T Bretz Subject: Re: IN> Sex, Lies & Balseraphs In a message dated 97-12-22 13:41:15 EST, you write: << "You know, babe, heaven might really not be that BAD..." and BELIEVING it permenantly makes my little tiny brain explode. >> This made me think of an episode of Black Adder I, wherein Edmund was made Archbishop of Canterbury, "You know, Heaven is fine if your the sort of person who likes singing hymns, beekeeping, that sort of thing. But Hell is for the sort of person who likes pillaging, and rodgering, and such" (or something like that). Edmund Blackadder, Balseraph of the ages. theron houston ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 00:10:03 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Song of Stability > I'm mostly looking for people to give this a shot and see how it > works. If it looks unbalancing, blink and look again. If it IS too > unbalancing in a game, I'd love to hear input on what happened, what > went right, and what went wrong. I think a lot of it is that the people who liked it just looked at it, thought it was good, and filed it away. It looks good, doesn't look unbalancing, and I plan to put it in my campaign (when it happens). Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "Five seconds later, I'm getting the upside of 15Kv across the nipples. (These ambulance guys sure know how to party)." - BOFH ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 01:28:51 -0500 From: "Thomas Davidson" Subject: Re: IN> Balseraph Fluff - ---------- > From: Emily Dresner > To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Subject: Re: IN> Balseraph Fluff > Date: Tuesday, December 23, 1997 3:29 PM > > > > No, they don't. Ummm. . . the Coke. . . disappeared through a dimensional > > nexus and is currently living in some corner of some nameless dimension > > where it has married a Pepsi and had 2 children: RC is a disappointment, > > never amounting to very much; but the real pride of the family is Pepper, > > who just got a PhD in creative chemistry. > > > > (enough BS?) :-) > > I hope you didn't just resonate on yourself and get yourself to believe > that. Because boy are you going to feel dumb when it wears off. :) > Okay, I never said I was a *good* Bal. :-) God, I love writing for them. They're so full of it, and so am I. :-) Thomas Davidson tdavidso@suffolk.lib.ny.us MUSIC: Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Rolling Stones, Rush, Jimi Hendrix GAMES: Champions (old and new), In Nomine, Nephilim TV: The X-Files, The Simpsons, Superman, The Tick, The Animaniacs OTHER: Religion, Philosophy, mysticism, the runes, the Tarot, writing ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 03:33:37 EST From: Anavrin169 Subject: IN> send any new stuff i love this game i would enjoy if you could send me any thing ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 06:57:05 -0800 (PST) From: Querent Subject: Re: IN> Song of Stability I actually have that covered as well. It's not Celestial. A Soldier happened upon it. (Perhaps through divine intervention? Revelation from God? A pact with a pagan deity?) It occured as a reaction to celestial intervention, not as a result of it. Celestials don't know quite how it works. It relies more on feel than on knowledge, and no matter how powerful they are or how hard they try, they just can't get the feel of what it truly means to be part of the symphony. The skill was passed on from Soldier to Soldier. The Shaolin temple and the Knights Templar were full of Soldiers familiar with this song. Celestials *can* learn this song, through study, but can *not* perform it at all. This does, however, allow them to teach them to their own Soldiers. Many Archangels and Demon Princes alike charge their subjects not to do so lightly, as their power becomes diminished. Saminga, in fact, hates the little upstart humans interfering with his harvest of the dead, and prohibits it's use by his subjects entirely. (Not that it doesn't happen.) In short, yes, there is a detailed history. No, I'll not elaborate because... yes, it is shrouded in the mists of the past, a forgotten secret from a past millenium. - ---"Perry M. Lloyd" wrote: > [SNIP] > Second little thing. I haven't read all of this thread yet, so I don't > know if anyone's suggested this already, but... I was wondering who might > have created this song? Which band or choir? > > The Grigori, seems to me. This would help explain why celestials can't > even use it, or be taught it... _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 10:44:27 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Balseraph Fluff Thanks. I just laughed so hard I wet my pants. I am now gasping for air. And Merry Christmas. My Balseraph Dues Check is in the mail. - - Em, Laughing Out Loud Balseraph ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 20:07:41 EST From: Neel Krishnaswami Subject: IN> Zina, Free Lilim Here's another demon. Zina is a good choice to go Renegade, though I expect it's pretty unlikely that she'd want to join Heaven. A question: demons have traditionally been able to grant youth, beauty and health to people who sell their souls. In the main rulebook, youth and health can be got with the songs of entropy and healing. But how about a long-duration good looks thing? - ---- Zina Free Lilim Corporeal Forces 2 -- Strength 3 Agility 5 Ethereal Forces 3 -- Intelligence 6 Precision 6 Celestial Forces 4 -- Will 6 Perception 10 Vessel: Vessel/2, Charisma +2 (Slacker charm) Skills: Driving/3, Dodge/3, Fighting/2, Ranged Weapons/3 Computer Operation/3, Running/1, Fast-Talk/4, Detect Lies/4 Songs: Corporeal Entropy/4, Corporeal Healing/4, Ethereal Attraction/3, Celestial Tongues/1 Discord: Jaded/3 Appearance: Zina manifests as a twenty-something Caucasian female with short black hair and blue eyes. She is usually dressed quite casually, favoring the grunge look that went out of style a couple of years back. She usually wears baggy jeans, army boots, and a flannel shirt over a cheap cotton T-shirt. History: Not much of one, really. Zina was created as Free Lilim who got sent to Earth unusually early, which meant that she got jaded about the nature of the War and Hell much earlier than most of her fellows. She sees Hell as one gigantic scam, and she is openly contemptuous of other demons, especially those who work hard at damning mankind. She also maintains a cold spot in her heart for other "free" Lilim, mocking them for being unable to see their chains. Her attitude towards Heaven is a little kinder; she regards them as a pack of fools who believe their own propaganda. Her standard method of maintaining her own comfort -- which is really the only thing she is able to muster any enthusiasm for -- is to head to hospitals and look for rich old sick people. With her songs of Corporeal Healing and Entropy, she is able to offer them health and youth. She doesn't really waste her time on anyone who has qualms about dealing with demons; for every one of those, there's someone who remembers how hard it is for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God. Zina Talks: My name is Zina, which probably means something in Hebrew or Aramaic or Greek, but I couldn't really say. Lucifer isn't big on education for demons. That's right, demons. You know, one of the Damned, the Fallen, a servant of Hell, the whole nine yards and kit and caboodle. Most of us demons serve bigger and nastier demons, who do the same thing themselves, and you can iterate right up until you get to the Demon Princes and the big red S himself. In theory, I don't serve anyone but myself, but that's just the theory, really. If I decided to go off and become an airline attendent or something, I'm sure Hell's secret police would go off and invent a crime against the devil that I commited and vaporize me. Yes, Satan has a secret police. You didn't think the rebellion *ended* once everyone landed in Hell, now did you? So it's probably better that you think of me as a contract worker for the Pit, rather than some sort of rebel's rebel or something. That way, you won't get too disappointed when I offer you a deal and the price is your immortal soul. Not, I might add, that I need to ask for souls much. It's pretty much been my experience that most everyone I know is already damned. Even if you just count the humans. Ha, ha, I was just making a little joke. Right, you're not laughing. So, if you're still interested, I guess we could work out a deal. The price isn't actually all that bad; I do you a favor, and sometime down the road you do me a favor. And if you're worried about dealing with a spawn of the Pit -- and believe me, I can understand that worry -- you can go off and be righteous all the rest of the time. I don't care, and you can even count on me not to try to tempt you into sin the rest of the time, either. Why? Run it like this: Lucifer and the princes only care about the big picture, you know, how many billions damned. So they don't really give a damn -- ha, ha -- about any particular soul. And those of us on the bottom don't really get any use out of the souls we snare, so it's not like we're going to risk our necks coming after you, not when the Princes don't care and the warrior angels do. Yeah, angels. They exist, and presumably so does God. But they're all mushy about repentence, so if you run into one, just tell him that I tempted you and you'll never do it again. Then even the warrior badass John Woo-style angels will get all sappy and merciful. It works best if you mean it, though, so you might consider my offer a one-time special, if you know what I mean. Say no, and you'll never see me again...so what do you say? - ---- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #531 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.