From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Dec 29 23:37:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA03974 for ; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 23:37:28 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id XAA15163 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 23:26:48 -0600 Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 23:26:48 -0600 Message-Id: <199712300526.XAA15163@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #536 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, December 29 1997 Volume 01 : Number 536 In this digest: Re: IN> We interrupt this mailing list... Re: IN> Famous Name [New resource] IN> Song of Stability IN> In Nomine Christian Mods IN> In Nomine Christian Mods Re: IN> In Nomine Christian Mods Re: IN> In Nomine Christian Mods IN> Some Marches questions Re: IN> In Nomine Christian Mods IN> Succor Attunement (H&H give-away) IN> Remnants Re: IN> vampires Re: IN> It finally happened, damnit... RE: IN> Remnants IN> Wow.. Cool Game Re: IN> Remnants Re: IN> Wow.. Cool Game Re: IN> In Nomine Christian Mods Re: IN> vampires Re: IN> Wow.. Cool Game Re: IN> Song of Stability IN> Re: Wow Cool Game, plus vampires and balserapth quibble RE: IN> Re: In Nomine Christian Mods Lucifer, Archangel of Hell (Was Re: IN> In Nomine Christian Mods) Re: IN> Wow.. Cool Game ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 12:07:55 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> We interrupt this mailing list... ..and of course we're going to *believe* a newscast from Nybbas?... Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 13:18:41 EST From: Neel Krishnaswami Subject: Re: IN> Famous Name [New resource] : Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 19:55:30 +0000 : From: "Nathaniel Eliot" : Subject: Re: IN> New Resource for Demons : : > Here's a new Resource for demons... : : Cool idea. One suggestion: : : > A demon with a famous name has his name prominently mentioned in : > sorcerous texts, and will sometimes be summoned at inconvenient : > times. At level 1, the demon's name is only found in the most : > obscure and unholy texts, and at level 6, even cheap paperback books : > on the occult will contain the rituals for summoning the demon. : : At the beginning of any gaming session, the GM may roll a d6 - if it : is equal to or less than the level of Discord, the GM is free to : have the character summoned or otherwise harrassed by Sorcerer. Of : course, the GM can (and should) make this roll in secret, so nobody : will know if you fudge it... Go for it. It's your campaign. Personally, I have a pretty strong dislike for anything that smells of "roll dice to determine game world events." But I fully recognize that it is a useful tool in spurring the imagination for other GMs. This is why I left the specific mechanics undefined. :) One thing that amuses me about this resource is that the lower the level, the more likely the summoning sorcerer is competent. Not just anyone has copies of _The Shining Keys of Solomon_[*] in the original infant-skin vellum edition, but it tends to be disaffected teenagers who perform the rituals from the Aleister Crowley titles available at Waldenbooks. [*] I just now made the title up, for cheese effect. Please no one tell me that it's real, or my respect for occultism will drop even lower. - ---- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 13:36:29 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Song of Stability >>>Note that I wasn't saying that the Symphony bent to the almightly Will. I was saying that by virtue of their connection to the Symphony, a human can reinforce it.<<< That's still not In Nomine. The Symphony isn't a "paradigm" that shapes itself according to the presence of humans who act as "stabilizing" agents. You're still thinking WoD. The Symphony simply IS -- and humans happen to be a natural part of it, whereas celestials are not. So humans can act in *natural* ways without disturbing the Symphony, since anything natural is a part of the Symphony. But a human singing a Song is not wielding a natural part of the Symphony. >>>Stability [...] Comments (other than the obvious "this will change the world", because that was the point)?<<< Still too powerful (in fact, it's MORE powerful than the Song was -- you've gone from a Soldiers-only "counterspell" to "anti-Psi" Soldiers). And if they spend Essence to dampen other peoples' Essence expenditures, how are they "reinforcing" the Symphony by disturbing it even more? Same problems as before. I think we just have fundamentally different points of view here. Either the Song or the attunement are certainly legitimate additions to anyone's campaign who wants to use them, but I'd find them unbalancing and contrary to the way In Nomine is supposed to work. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 13:36:24 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> In Nomine Christian Mods >>>At any rate, I didn't like the masculocentric bullshit he pulled with the Archangels, which IMO was worse than any innate "Christianising" in that there is no scriptural base for it. Only slightly less offensive was his insistance that angels are all moral upstanding guys who would never do anything nasty, which completely ignores all precident. Like my .sig says "all this time spent praising your lord, but always with one wing dipped in blood. Would you ever want to meet an angel?" The second is just hypocritical; the first is patently offensive and deserving (in mind) of the heaps of scorn that Redneck felt necessary to heap on him.<<< Boy, the knees are just jerking away, aren't they? Look, in terms of writing quality and game design, his effort is mediocre at best. But it's no more of a distortion than some of the other alternative In Nomine settings I've seen posted. "No scriptural base"? Gimme a break. *Every* write-up of In Nomine, including the official one, takes an extremely loose interpretation of scriptures, and throws them out completely when they're inconvenient. But you want to hold him to a standard you wouldn't apply to anyone else? Granted, his worldview is very conservative, very fundamentalist, and yes, very "masculocentric" too. (Though that last is one of the many things that makes me think he's just jerking peoples' chains.) I wouldn't want to play in his universe, but so what? You complain that he's sanitized heaven -- well, yeah, according to the fundamentalist Christian POV, Heaven IS perfect, and angels *can't* ever act cruelly. Doesn't make for a very exciting game, but it is consistent with their dogma. I've seen many alternate In Nomine universes posted here, ranging from brilliant and well-written to cheesy sophomoric drivel. The fact that a fundamentalist Christian setting arouses such ire and condemnation is, IMO, indicative of a certain hypocrisy in the gaming community. And I say that as a very NON-religious person who generally dislikes extreme fundamentalists. Lighten up. He's a harmless Jesus-freak at worst, a satirist who's succeeded in pulling ALL your legs at best. Some of you sound like you're ready to man battlestations to defend RPGs against Pat Robertson's stormtroopers over this. I find it intensely amusing. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 13:36:26 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> In Nomine Christian Mods >>>What I object to is someone picking out the person who defines the core game and saying, 'This guy is WRONG, he's a LIAR, and he's going to burn in hell.'<<< I agree with Neel; I think you're the one who's being humorless here, Redneck. You've been pretty biting and satirical in the past, and none too tactful about disagreeing with people, either. I'm rather surprised that you find an obviously tongue-in-cheek writeup so offensive, just because it happens to be written from a fundie Christian POV. I sense a knee jerking. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 14:53:47 -0400 (EDT) From: gibsonc@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Christian Mods Is there anyway we can drop this and start posting things that have to do with the game? let's leave our personal lives in the chat rooms. jahon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 14:10:27 -0600 (CST) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Christian Mods >>>>What I object to is someone picking out the person who defines the core >game and saying, 'This guy is WRONG, he's a LIAR, and he's going to burn in >hell.'<<< > > >I agree with Neel; I think you're the one who's being humorless here, >Redneck. > >You've been pretty biting and satirical in the past, and none too tactful >about disagreeing with people, either. I'm rather surprised that you find >an obviously tongue-in-cheek writeup so offensive, just because it happens >to be written from a fundie Christian POV. I sense a knee jerking. I don't find it offensive so much as frightening, because I have known too many people who could have posted this and -not- have been joking. Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | "It's Christmas in Heaven, http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | there's great shows on TV; c/o White Lightning Productions | the Sound of Music twice an hour http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | and Jaws I, II and III." Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- A Nybbas Christmas http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 06:12:33 +1100 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: IN> Some Marches questions G'day. Finally bought a copy of 'The Marches', and I've got a few questions. Sorry if this is old hat to the rest of the list - poverty has prevented me from being up to date. 1. Sorcerors can't summon angels, but can they summon Remnants? 2. Since sorcerors aren't Soldiers, can they learn non-Corporeal Songs? 3. If not, what advantage is there to being a sorceror? It seems that they have a lot less going for them than most Soldiers of Hell. Thanks. - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia Your God drinks peach nectar Eats boiled fruit, can't fart out loud My God arm wrestled Khruschev Eats meat, farts with pride DOUG ANTHONY ALLSTARS, "Commies For Christ" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 14:18:23 -0600 (CST) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Christian Mods >Granted, his worldview is very conservative, very fundamentalist, and yes, >very "masculocentric" too. (Though that last is one of the many things that >makes me think he's just jerking peoples' chains.) Why? > >I've seen many alternate In Nomine universes posted here, ranging from >brilliant and well-written to cheesy sophomoric drivel. The fact that a >fundamentalist Christian setting arouses such ire and condemnation is, IMO, >indicative of a certain hypocrisy in the gaming community. And I say that >as a very NON-religious person who generally dislikes extreme >fundamentalists. As I said before, I don't object at all to a Christianized IN setting, and if I had more time I'd write one up to demonstrate how it could be done right. My problem with the original poster was with his apparent fanaticism, his muddled perception of reality and fiction, and most of all his basic tone. He isn't suggesting, he's preaching, and nothing I saw in the post led me to believe it was meant in jest. >Lighten up. He's a harmless Jesus-freak at worst, a satirist who's >succeeded in pulling ALL your legs at best. Some of you sound like you're >ready to man battlestations to defend RPGs against Pat Robertson's >stormtroopers over this. I find it intensely amusing. Pat Robertson and religious fanatics like his followers are always dangerous. Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | "It's Christmas in Heaven, http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | there's great shows on TV; c/o White Lightning Productions | the Sound of Music twice an hour http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | and Jaws I, II and III." Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- A Nybbas Christmas http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 16:31:11 EST From: "Perry M. Lloyd" Subject: IN> Succor Attunement (H&H give-away) QUESTION!! I HAVE A QUESTION!!! Whoops, sorry... musta had caplock on. :) In H&H, Angels of Protection may purchase an attunement called SUCCOR by which they may relieve a target of all pain for a number of hours equal to the check digit. No sweat, except, what do they roll against? Doesn't say. Will, I assume? Or do you just roll the Check Die? - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd "The humans do not start from that direct perception of Him which we, unhappily, cannot avoid. They have never known that ghastly luminosity, that stabbing and searing glare makes background of permanent pain to our lives." -Screwtape (From "The Screwtape Letters", by C.S. Lewis) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 15:46:43 -0600 From: Wells Family Fun Subject: IN> Remnants i'm fairly certain that this question is answered in the book but i've had trouble finding it... Remnants cannot generate essence at sunup/sundown, can they? aaron ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 09:29:19 +1100 (EST) From: Peter Frederick Subject: Re: IN> vampires >Now, ><going to be easy to think of it as anything other than a vampire. And I >don't mind it being less powerful than a mummy, it's just much less >powerful than a mummy.>> >Many undead are vulnerable to sunlight, and the need doesn't *have* to be for >blood. The text says the vampire should get "at least 3 levels of a need (such >as blood)". Blood was merely a suggestion. Just a quick note in here. There are a class of Oriental undead, I think of Japanese origin, called Gaki (hungry ghosts) who died with some great need, which in their unlife they pursue. They might consume wine, clothes, money, hair, muscle, beatiful people; whatever it was that the lusted after in life they continue to seek in unlife. Thanking you for your indulgence. Yours Peter. Reply to peterf@wr.com.au What does the Lord require of you, but to do justice and to love kindness and to walk humbly with your God ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 13:43:11 From: Jeff Miller Subject: Re: IN> It finally happened, damnit... >Like I said, speaks for itself. > >: Janus: He is not a Theif!! And neither are his Angels! They may >: MOVE something... > >Janus, the kender of the Celestial Kingdom. (I wasn't stealing it! I >was just moving it. God's will, honest.) > Thank you for the character idea.... Jeff Miller Program Director/Webmaster for Agamemcon II Burbank Airport Hilton -- May 22-24, 1998 Contact Info: 24161-H Hollyoak (714)643-8352 Laguna Hills, CA 92656 www.primenet.com/~shadocat/agamemcon.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 18:28:49 EST From: "Perry M. Lloyd" Subject: RE: IN> Remnants >i'm fairly certain that this question is answered in the book but i've >had trouble finding it... > > Remnants cannot generate essence at sunup/sundown, can they? > >aaron CAN the regenerate essence? Maybe like the humans? They ARE described as human in the book: "They cannot...listen to the symphony any more easily that any OTHER human." [IN pg 31] Caps by me. - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd "The humans do not start from that direct perception of Him which we, unhappily, cannot avoid. They have never known that ghastly luminosity, that stabbing and searing glare makes background of permanent pain to our lives." -Screwtape (From "The Screwtape Letters", by C.S. Lewis) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 21:13:55 -0500 From: Brandon Quina Subject: IN> Wow.. Cool Game I just recccently got In Nomine:) Id been trying to find it for quite awhile, but my game store never had the main rules for it-- only afew of the sourcebooks. I went in yesterday, and picked up 'In Nomine' the hard-bound, and the Angelic Players Guide. I probally woulda picked up one of the other Cycles but I didnt realize they were anything but adventures at the time.. ::grins:: Anyways. I was reading it-- very very cool game. But ive got afew quick questions, and I would appreciate it if you'd help me out with them. There probally quite stupid, but you know how the ole' saying goes "The only stupid question is a dumb one." 1. I basically understand all of the 'themes' of the angel choirs, but im abit lost when it comes to the demon bands. Here's what I think I understand.. Balseraphs are the lairs and connivers of hell. Djinn have me completly stumped. They seem to be 'serial killers' or 'stalkers' but they arnt allowed to harm who they attune themselves to. Calabim seem to be twisted forces of entropy, who take pleasure in dragging things down. The crazed. More 'serial killers' and 'stalkers' than the Djinn. Somewhat like the two murderers in Scream. Habbalah seem to be the exact opposit of the Elohim-- where the Elohim are impartial 'emotionless'* judges and councillers, the Habbalah seem to be 'judge, jury, and excutioner' Lilim are the temptresses of hell. They'll get you whatever you want-- for a price. Shedim are the corrupters of hell. They sneak into your brain, make you kill your parents with an axe, and think it was YOUR idea. Impudites appear to be the sneaky, /likable/ demons. The type that you feel you can TRUST. The type that you 'really' love-- but that really dont give a shit about you at all and are just using you. - -- How can vampires ever regain any essence. It says they can regain some at nightfall, if they meet their need before sunset. ::shakes his head:: Does the Kyriotate attunement of war mean that they have to keep the people they 'possess' until they are destroyed?? Why would a Kyriotate want to take the Song of Possession?? If humans cant have discords, whats the point of the Kyriotate of Judgement attunement.. Hmmm, lot of my questions have to do with the Kyriotates ;) - -- (lore@tmgbbs.com) \\/// Brandon Lance Quina (x x) Jacksonville, FL ---ooO(_)Ooo--- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 22:19:05 -0500 From: Frank Lazar Subject: Re: IN> Remnants At 03:46 PM -0600 12/29/1997, Wells Family Fun wrote: >i'm fairly certain that this question is answered in the book but i've >had trouble finding it... > > Remnants cannot generate essence at sunup/sundown, can they? > >aaron I believe they still do at either sunrise or set depending on whether they were originally Band/Choir. How else would that wino be able to work his Song of Transubsation to make wine from water? They can't use any Celestial Songs, having no Celestial Forces to work them. This also goes for attunements that work off Celestial Forces. They also lose Choir/Band attunements as well It's not stated, but I would imagine that those that were Word Bound would of course lose the attunement to their Word although they might retain some fragments. The downside of that would be the additional torture if their Word were given to someone else while they were still alive. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | _ | | We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers. /_\ | | We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, // \\ | | Crystal and scanner, holographic demons, \\ //___\\ | | And invocations of equations. \\ // \\ | | \\__// \\ | | These are the tools we employ. And we know... many things. \\ | | \\ | | | Frank Lazar http://www.interactive.net/~fmlazar | \\ | - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 22:28:54 -0500 (EST) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Wow.. Cool Game On Mon, 29 Dec 1997, Brandon Quina wrote: Hi, Brandon. Nice to see another WoDer here. Jo Hart's here, too, and I've seen Kabael once or twice. > Djinn have me completly stumped. They seem to be 'serial killers' > or 'stalkers' but they arnt allowed to harm who they attune > themselves to. They can't -hurt- their fixations, true, but that doesn't mean the Djinn can't make them miserable. > How can vampires ever regain any essence. It says they can regain > some at nightfall, if they meet their need before sunset. ::shakes > his head:: Personally, I throw out the IN rules for undead and use WoD stuff. But I'm part of an unpopular minority. (I -really- need to get off my butt and post my IN-WOD conversion rules. They seem to have survived beta-testing.) > Does the Kyriotate attunement of war mean that they have to keep the > people they 'possess' until they are destroyed?? No, only the vessels they make. Most Kyrios only have hosts, but KoW get - -vessels-, which they can't abondon. > Why would a Kyriotate want to take the Song of Possession?? So it could possess another celestial. > If humans cant have discords, whats the point of the Kyriotate of > Judgement attunement.. A lot of folks have wondered the same thing....what's the canon ruling on this, ArchBeth? - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 23:29:18 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Christian Mods > Is there anyway we can drop this and start posting things that have > to do with the game? let's leave our personal lives in the chat > rooms. Yes. In the spirit of things, I've deleted my reply to Edelstein's remarks. Let's let it die unless you have something to say about the gameability of some of his stuff. Just to get the ball rolling: what did you people think about his idea of Lucifer still having access to heaven? Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "Five seconds later, I'm getting the upside of 15Kv across the nipples. (These ambulance guys sure know how to party)." - BOFH ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 23:29:18 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> vampires > Just a quick note in here. There are a class of Oriental undead, I > think of Japanese origin, called Gaki (hungry ghosts) who died with > some great need, which in their unlife they pursue. They might > consume wine, clothes, money, hair, muscle, beatiful people; > whatever it was that the lusted after in life they continue to seek > in unlife. And another quick note - apparently, Kindred of the East (from the people[?] at Pale Puppy) deals with these eastern vampires, or another variant on the theme, called kuei-jin. It's not a recommendation to buy it, but if you see it in the store, looking through it a little might be worth it. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "Five seconds later, I'm getting the upside of 15Kv across the nipples. (These ambulance guys sure know how to party)." - BOFH ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 23:29:18 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Wow.. Cool Game > > How can vampires ever regain any essence. It says they can regain > > some at nightfall, if they meet their need before sunset. ::shakes > > his head:: > > Personally, I throw out the IN rules for undead and use WoD stuff. > But I'm part of an unpopular minority. Not that unpopular - I won't be using the WoD stuff exclusively, but I will be using some of it. > (I -really- need to get off my butt and post my IN-WOD conversion > rules. They seem to have survived beta-testing.) That would be nice, yes...I'd forgotten it was you who had promised those... > > Why would a Kyriotate want to take the Song of Possession?? > > So it could possess another celestial. Ummm...they can anyway. Taking the Song would be kinda pointless. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "Five seconds later, I'm getting the upside of 15Kv across the nipples. (These ambulance guys sure know how to party)." - BOFH ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 23:29:18 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Song of Stability > >>>Note that I wasn't saying that the Symphony bent to the almightly > Will. I was saying that by virtue of their connection to the > Symphony, a human can reinforce it.<<< > > That's still not In Nomine. No, David, that is not *your* In Nomine. > The Symphony isn't a "paradigm" that shapes itself according to > the presence of humans who act as "stabilizing" agents. You're > still thinking WoD. I never said "paradigm", and I haven't said much that would indicate a WoD subjective-universe view. > But a human singing a Song is not wielding a natural part of the > Symphony. I am looking at it this way - a human's "resonance" is their innate connection to the symphony, which allows them to do things without Disturbance. Which is why I changed it to an attunement. Songs are very Symphony changing, while attunements (at least, some of them) are more extensions of a symphonic resonance. > >>>Stability > > Comments (other than the obvious "this will change the world", > because that was the point)?<<< > > Still too powerful (in fact, it's MORE powerful than the Song was > -- you've gone from a Soldiers-only "counterspell" to "anti-Psi" > Soldiers). And if they spend Essence to dampen other peoples' > Essence expenditures, how are they "reinforcing" the Symphony by > disturbing it even more? Okay, I'll buy the "too powerful" in this case, because the essence stopping power was (in retrospect) pretty powerful. > but I'd find them unbalancing and contrary to the way In Nomine is > supposed to work. Well, given that unbalancing (in your case) has meant "changing to balance of power in the game", didn't you just reply with what I'd asked you not to? Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "Five seconds later, I'm getting the upside of 15Kv across the nipples. (These ambulance guys sure know how to party)." - BOFH ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 23:48:25 EST From: "Perry M. Lloyd" Subject: IN> Re: Wow Cool Game, plus vampires and balserapth quibble Brandon Quina writes >1. I basically understand all of the 'themes' of the angel choirs, >but im abit lost when it comes to the demon bands. Here's what I >think I understand.. > >Balseraphs are the lairs and connivers of hell. Errr... yes and no. I have a couple problems with Balseraphs. First off, they're not liars, well they are, but... So far as I can tell, a Balseraph CANNOT lie. They would no more lie to you than a Seraph. However, what they DO do is make themselves believe something and then extend their little "belief-bubble" out and suck you into believing it to. This means that the Balseraphs aren't the one's screaming "Ha ha! Sucker!!!!! I was LYING!!" No. The Balseraphs believe in their heart of hearts that they're telling the truth and woe to the one that convinces himself of something that doesn't hold water. I find them rather pathetic, since they can't take advantage of their own lies. That's MY question, do Balseraphs believe their own lies or not? [Brandon] >Djinn have me completly stumped. They seem to be 'serial killers' >or 'stalkers' but they arnt allowed to harm who they attune >themselves to. Casca >They can't -hurt- their fixations, true, but that doesn't mean the Djinn >can't make them miserable. "While attuned to something, the Djinn himself cannot bring it harm, either physical or emotional." [IN pg 144] No, I don't believe the Djinn can make them miserable, if that constitutes emotional harm. [Brandon] >Calabim seem to be twisted forces of entropy, who take pleasure >in dragging things down. The crazed. More 'serial killers' and >'stalkers' than the Djinn. Somewhat like the two murderers in >Scream. DESTRUCTION. One word, one goal, one dream, one vision. I like the Calabim, they're straightforward like that. [Brandon] >Habbalah seem to be the exact opposit of the Elohim-- where the >Elohim are impartial 'emotionless'* judges and councillers, the >Habbalah seem to be 'judge, jury, and excutioner' Yup. But the elohim are not emotionless at all; they are actually quite empathic, and I would say quite emotional. They remind me of the vulcans - great inner emotions and the ability to feel the emotions of the world around them is too great; it is too much and so must turn to logic. :) [Brandon] >Lilim are the temptresses of hell. They'll get you whatever >you want-- for a price. But can they pull it out of thin air? No, they have to work for it, work for you, for a price. $40,000 doesn't come out of nowhere, you know. Then again, a good Lilim will have plenty of favors to cash in... [Brandon] >Shedim are the corrupters of hell. They sneak into your brain, >make you kill your parents with an axe, and think it was YOUR idea. What hideous things. [Brandon] >Impudites appear to be the sneaky, /likable/ demons. The type that >you feel you can TRUST. The type that you 'really' love-- but that >really dont give a ---- about you at all and are just using you. Don't give a ---- about you? No, not really. They DO love humans, but they love humans the way humans love ice cream. Or rather, boxes of ice cream that continually refill themselves. The demons who don't give a whit about you are the Servitors of Lust. :) [Brandon] >-- > >How can vampires ever regain any essence. It says they can regain >some at nightfall, if they meet their need before sunset. ::shakes >his head:: [Casca] >Personally, I throw out the IN rules for undead and use WoD stuff. But >I'm part of an unpopular minority. Hey! Over here! I'm with you! I'd allow my vampires to take Discord out the ass and use all the points from it. Let's see... Need/3 (blood, bunnies, whatever) 9pts Need/3 (earth) 9pts (or, Soother/3 (earth)) Soother is a home ruls Discord, without the soother present at certain times, the character goes under mental duress. In this case with the Vampire's home earth, it suffers horrible nightmares as it rests in the ground. Vulnearability/3 (sunlight) 9pts Vulnearability/3 (running water) 9pts Fear/3 (fire) 9pts Fear/3 (sunlight) 9pts Strangeness/3 (casts no reflection in mirrors, cannot be recorded by cameras, does not show up on videotape, GM's call) Anger/3 (beast within) 3pts [reduced cost; only applies when character hasn't fed for a while] That gives a vampire character an extra 57pts to play with. Now, that's power. 'Course, it sucks to be a vampire, but this makes it more tolerable. Cool stuff for vampires: Vampiric Kiss [IN pg 179] Shedim of Theft [IN pg 181] [perhaps Valefor would give his vampires an Attunement that allowed them to suck out a person's essence along with their blood. On the other hand, a vampire sorceror could do just that, using themselves as a Reliquary when using Focus/2 (GM allowing) and for sure with Focus/5!! (MARCHES pp 61-52)] Balseraph of Lust Humanity (for the truly advanced vampire) Impudite of Techonology Song of... Attraction(Ethereal) ["How can you love that beast?!") Charm(Celestial) [to possess tose mind bending abilities] Dreams [for the vampire whose Need is Dreams...] Entropy(Corporeal) [to appear to age slowly over the years] Form(Ethereal) [just cause it's cool] Healing(all) [a must for any immortal] Fangs as well as any of the Numinous Corpus And, yes, in my house ruls, certain soldiers have access to noncorporeal songs. Usually only those with a strong tie to the divine or demonic, and I'd consider vampirism DEMONIC. Unsure whether allowing Soldiers to take Choir Attunements is canon, but... I allow it. More powers for the humans to play with. Oh, and I'd allow vampires special Rites, too. But that's just me. >(I -really- need to get off my butt and post my IN-WOD conversion rules. >They seem to have survived beta-testing.) Cool! [Brandon] >If humans cant have discords, whats the point of the Kyriotate of >Judgement attunement.. [Casca] >A lot of folks have wondered the same thing....what's the canon ruling on >this, ArchBeth? As far as I'm concerned. Oh, wait... AFAIK, they can. Humans can have discord. There're people with stimata out there (AFAIK) and quite a few obese people; not to mention all the Geased people (IN world), and the phobic (Fear) and paranoid. Not to mention Greed, Gluttony and Slothful. Kyrio of Judgement implies humans can have Discord, Balseraph of Nightmares generates it in humans (or a shadow thereof). What I really would like is to see a list of Concord; those little advantages that come from being "in tune" with the symphony. :) [Brandon] >Hmmm, lot of my questions have to do with the Kyriotates ;) As have ours. :) - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd "The humans do not start from that direct perception of Him which we, unhappily, cannot avoid. They have never known that ghastly luminosity, that stabbing and searing glare makes background of permanent pain to our lives." -Screwtape (From "The Screwtape Letters", by C.S. Lewis) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 23:59:37 EST From: "Perry M. Lloyd" Subject: RE: IN> Re: In Nomine Christian Mods Wow, man. With all this cool discussion, I wish I hadn't missed the post. That's the problem with deleting entire threads at once. If anyone has copy of the original post, please send it to me. Wait, nix that. Woah, ever notice how nix is close to nixon? Anyway, could it PLEASe be reposted to the list? PLEASE? (:) - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd "The humans do not start from that direct perception of Him which we, unhappily, cannot avoid. They have never known that ghastly luminosity, that stabbing and searing glare makes background of permanent pain to our lives." -Screwtape (From "The Screwtape Letters", by C.S. Lewis) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 23:12:54 -0600 (CST) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Lucifer, Archangel of Hell (Was Re: IN> In Nomine Christian Mods) >> Is there anyway we can drop this and start posting things that have >> to do with the game? let's leave our personal lives in the chat >> rooms. > >Yes. In the spirit of things, I've deleted my reply to Edelstein's >remarks. Let's let it die unless you have something to say about >the gameability of some of his stuff. > >Just to get the ball rolling: what did you people think about his >idea of Lucifer still having access to heaven? > It's a concept I've seen here and there, and had thought about doing something with. In the creation, God took Lucifer aside and said, "Lew, I've got big plans for you." Lucifer shrugs and says, "I don't know what. I'm not the oldest, I'm not the most powerful, and being the Lightbringer is, well, pretty dull..." God grins and says, "Well, y'see, I've been toying with a concept called 'free will.' I'm going to give it to all the angels, and what's more, I'm going to create a new type of being tomorrow called Man to have dominion over the Earth." "What's Free Will?" Lucifer asked. "Free Will is where you can choose to do something other than I tell you," God smiled. "You can even choose to disobey if you like." "Wow," Lucifer said, shaken, "what a concept!" "Yes, isn't it?" God smiled. "The problem with Free Will is, in order for a person to make a choice, there has to be a choice to make." "Okay," Lucifer nodded. "So you're going to become the other choice." "Choice of what?" "Me or you. Good or evil. Obedience and rebellion. You with me so far?" "Why would I want to disobey you, Lord?" Lucifer just couldn't get a grip on what God was saying. "Listen," God said. "You're going to raise a rebellion against me. Appeal to the selfish, the dissatisfied, the angels who don't like my Plan. You'll take a dive in the battle that follows and set up your own domain in Hell." "I don't like Hell," Lucifer shuddered. "It's so dark." "There's more," God said. "The human souls who choose to be evil, who make a definite choice to do things which harm others for their own gain, or their own pleasure, those will be sent to you. You'll also try to tempt humans with the promise of power, riches, whatever, except they have to sign over their soul to you to get it. Once they're in Hell, you'll punish them for a bit, maybe get rid of the really really bad ones permanently, and then send the best of the lot back into the pool to be reincarnated." "That's a lot," Lucifer said, "are you sure I'm up to it?" "Not done yet. The angels that follow you to Hell will change their nature according to their selfishness- they'll become demons." "Demons, right." "Now, the best of the lot will want to go back. Make it tough on them. Make sure that only the ones who are really, really committed to doing good get out. The worst of the lot, the ones who want to undo everything and things like that, those you get rid of." "Can't I have some help with this?" Lucifer said. "This sounds like a LOT of work, and really hateful work too." His wings drooped as he added, "I won't be able to come back here." "Well," God thought carefully, "once a year you can return to Heaven and give me a report. In public, though, you'll have to act like you're challenging my authority." "Right," Lucifer said uncertainly. "That's a good lad," God smiled. "Now get out there and start the revolution. You'll know what to do." - --- Redneck (15 min. on the fly) Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | "It's Christmas in Heaven, http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | there's great shows on TV; c/o White Lightning Productions | the Sound of Music twice an hour http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | and Jaws I, II and III." Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- A Nybbas Christmas http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 00:18:28 -0500 From: Brandon Quina Subject: Re: IN> Wow.. Cool Game > Hi, Brandon. Nice to see another WoDer here. Jo Hart's here, too, and > I've seen Kabael once or twice. Casca:) Heylo :) > They can't -hurt- their fixations, true, but that doesn't mean the > Djinn can't make them miserable. ::nods:: > Personally, I throw out the IN rules for undead and use WoD stuff. But > I'm part of an unpopular minority. ::Shrugs one of Sabrinas trade-mark shrugs:: Dont really care for it that much, myself. It seems to make more sense, within In Nomine, that the undead are created by hell-- rather than by other undead. Also, 'mummys' in the WoD would be /really/ bad for in nomine. As far as I know, the only 'zombi' in the WoD are the Cappa/Gio ones and the ones that the voodo craft makes.. Basically-- if you start adding in WoD stuff, where does it end?? I can picture a smaller 'kindred-like' band of demons, though.. > (I -really- need to get off my butt and post my IN-WOD conversion > rules. They seem to have survived beta-testing.) ::Smiles:: Maybe you can change my mind.. > No, only the vessels they make. Most Kyrios only have hosts, but KoW > get -vessels-, which they can't abondon. Got that one after I hit 'send' ;) > So it could possess another celestial. Well. From what ive seen, there is nothing to stop a Kyriotate from taking over another celestial-- except that they tend to have higher wills, and thus can resist easier. On a related note- How many hits do the hosts of the Shedim and Kyriotates have?? Afterall, they arnt really 'vessels' so they dont have a vessel level.. I was thinking it was something like this- (Angels Corporeal Forces + Hosts Corporeal Forces) x Angels Strength Is there a by-the-book method on this?? - -- (lore@tmgbbs.com) \\/// Brandon Lance Quina (x x) Jacksonville, FL ---ooO(_)Ooo--- ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #536 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.