From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Dec 30 14:14:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA30694 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 14:14:24 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id NAA25787 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 13:45:47 -0600 Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 13:45:47 -0600 Message-Id: <199712301945.NAA25787@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #538 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, December 30 1997 Volume 01 : Number 538 In this digest: Re: IN> In Nomine Christian Mods Re: IN> Wow.. Cool Game Re: IN> In Nomine Christian Mods Re: IN> The Company in IN Re: IN> The Company in IN Re: IN> In Nomine Christian Mods Re: IN> In Nomine Christian Mods IN> IN, WoD, mortals and history Re: IN> In Nomine Christian Mods RE: IN> The Company in IN Re: IN> Re: About those IN-WoD mods . . . Re: IN> Wow.. Cool Game IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #537 IN> Some questions Re: IN> Wow.. Cool Game Re: IN> The Company in IN Re: IN> The Company in IN ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 10:27:26 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Christian Mods Nathaniel Eliot wrote: > Just to get the ball rolling: what did you people think about his > idea of Lucifer still having access to heaven? I like it. After all, the first mention of Satan as a real personality is in the book of Job, where Satan is "prosecuting" Job's "case" before God, saying that Job doesn't really love God, just the gifts God gives him. So God lets Satan take away the gifts, to prove the opposite. (BTW God is, of course, acting as the "judge" in the heavenly court, but in ancient Israel the judge was also the defense council. This should re-color our reading when we read in the Bible about God coming in judgement. He is also coming in defense.) As far as IN goes, it would underline the idea that celestial politics can be very subtle and twisty. Here are Heaven and Hell, engaged the The War of which all other wars are side issues, but still snarled up in diplomatic tangles (diplomacy being an extension of war, or vice versa, I forget which). After all, Satan knows that the Good Guys have to play by the Rules, and could hardly pass up an opportunity to try to trip them up by those rules. Wouldn't it make for some interesting confrontational scenes, e.g. at the Seraphim Council? Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 14:42:13 +0000 From: Sam Kington Subject: Re: IN> Wow.. Cool Game John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > Remember that a Kyriotate without a vessel > will very quickly face his boss (or utter destruction if > they are an Outcast!) Well, dunno about "very quickly". Even for the wimpiest, 1 Celestial Force Kyrio, they can hang around for 10 minutes before being yanked up - - and that's surely enough to find a host in a reasonably well-populated area. OK, so the Kyrio will have problems if he ends up chucked out of his host in the middle of a desert (although there's always life *somewhere* in the desert), but that's comparatively rare. Most Kyrios will typically have three or more Celestial Forces, which gives them a good half an hour to try and jump into someone. Hardly taxing. (As for Kyrios of Jean, well, when was one of *them* last yanked up to Heaven for not having a host?) BTW, I thought an Outcast angel was yanked back to Limbo if their vessel was destroyed? Sam - -- Home page: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/ INWO Homebrew: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/cgi/illuminati "And in the news...body parts were strewn for miles...so check your sandwich" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 10:42:09 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Christian Mods Since the topic came up, and since I'm even one of the people who asked for it, here are some modifications to IN to make it more Christian-specific: Shape up the Archangels - ----------------------- I'd reduce the amount of squabbling in Heaven, and radically reduce the sheer emnity. None of this business of Michael called Dominic the "hyena of Heaven," etc. I'd even make Dominic Archangel of Justic. Now, there's a lot of fun to be had from having contrasting Archangels or choirs get on each other's astral nerves or try each other's patience, yea even unto celestial shouting matches, so I'd allow those, but they *are* all the original Good Guys, and they should all know that about each other. Falling and Redeeming - --------------------- Christian tradition is solidly in favor of a totally final fate or doom, contrary to the canon IN idea of any angel being in danger of falling or any demon having the hope of redeeming. But there is a lot of drama to the idea of celestial characters changing state that way. So I propose a more elaborate system. Old system: Unfallen - Outcast/Renegade - Fallen New system: Blessed - Unfallen - Outcast/Renegade - Fallen - Damned The two new states, Blessed and Damned, are final and irrevocable. If you reach either of those states, you have, in effect, *used* *up* your free will and are eternally fixed in that condition. Naturally, most PCs will not start the game Blessed or Damned. (Of course, for along time, lots of people *thought* Malakim were created Blessed.) ALL Archangels are Blessed. ALL Demon Princes are Damned. The only exceptions might be Janus, Valefor, and Lilith. Typically, human souls are Blessed or Damned when they die. However, reincarnation or shunting off to the Marches is an option in more softcore Christian games. Simple dissipation on death is unlikely unless the person was, ah, Damned unlucky. Immortality - ----------- The immortality of the soul is a very firm Christian tradition. I would say only the Damned can soul-die. Everyone else just goes into Trauma as in the canonical version. If the canon would have had you soul-dead, you go into Trauma so lengthy that you'd better start a new character. This means, by the way, that Remnants are recoverable unless they are Remnants of someone Damned. They are, in effect, in walking, corporeal Trauma. Other Religions - --------------- Obviously, if Christianity is true, or the truest of the available religions, the others are not as true, or simply false. How much this intrudes on play is a political variable the GM must tune carefully. At the hardcore end of the spectrum, if angels come in answer to prayers, they only come in answer to Christian prayers. Soldiers of God are almost always Christians. Some Soliders (of other religions) may *think* they are Soldiers of God but are really dupes of Hell. At the softcore end of the spectrum, Heaven gives everyone's prayers an equal hearing, regardless of creed, and is more equal-opportunity about Soliders of God. At the *really* softcore end, the angels and demons themselves aren't sure which religion is true, except for a very few, like Gabriel, who have been involved directly. I have a hard time imagining a Christian-specifc game in which Gabriel really started Islam, unless she was the vicitm of an infernal deception, which might be what drove her crazy. In the middle, Christians and Christian Soldiers would have only a few advantages, such as an enhanced ability to exorcise. In any Christian game, it is apporpriate for celestials to lean heavier on Christians, tempting them harder or demanding more moral effort of them. Catholic Mods - ------------ Here are some further modifications for a Catholic-specific game. Saints - ------ All Christians believe in saints -- all Christians feel they are or hope to BE saints -- but Catholicism has a large and specific body of learning about them and encourages commerce between them and the faithful still on Earth. A Catholic campaign could have Saints who are of the same power-rank as Archangels, a new type of Superior. (It could likewise have Deep Sinners as infernal counterparts.) There is, perhaps, a College of Saints in parallel with the Seraphim Council, or perhaps there are Saints on the Council. Such saintly Superiors could have lesser saints and angels as PC servitors. The premiere example of such a Superior would be the Blessed Virgin Mary herself, a sort of Heavenly counterpoint to Lilith. Purgatory - --------- In addition to the realms already in the game, we add Purgatory. The human souls in Purgatory are already Blessed, but they are cleansing themselves, refining their characters to make themselves suitable for Heaven. Dante has a detailed and beautiful description of Purgatory, but if you don't like it, you can make your own, of course. You could even make it look like Hell, but with a vastly different attitude. The people there, both human and celestial, are essentially optimistic. The place may be just as painful as Hell, but you are here to get better, and you will, and you will get out. It's like a school, or a hospital. In game terms, some souls may work off part of their purgation by coming back into the Corporeal realm to do good deeds or undo the bad things they did in life. This opens the possibilities of "saints" who are less saintly and more mundane than full, graduated Saints, and of ghost stories about expiational hauntings. Sacraments - ---------- Being baptized, or being in a state of grace after confession, could offer some degree of protection against infernals or ethereals. The Host might ward off infernals or inimical ethereals, as in many old tales. Church Organization - ------------------ The canon writeup on Soldiers of God already includes a division working out of the Vatican. Such things could be multiplied, and whole new Black Ops divisions of the Church could be imagined up, to interface with the IN celestials. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 10:50:17 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> The Company in IN Highway Star wrote: > 1) The Grays - are they demonic? Confused angels? Human? Or > actually alien? I think the most interesting thing is to make them real aliens who are working for celestials ... maybe alien celestials. Opens up whole new dimensions. Does Lucifer have franchises on Zeta Reticuli, or did someone else stage a separate rebellion elsewhere? Do the Archangels of Earth also have fields of operation all over the galaxy, or are their separate hierarchies, even alien choirs, on each planet? Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 10:01:40 -0600 From: Bob the Dancing Monkey Subject: Re: IN> The Company in IN At 10:17 AM 12/30/97 -0500, you wrote: >Well, for Christmas I bought myself a copy of GURPS Black Ops. I really >enjoyed it, and highly recommend it. > >And since I like to bastardize my game I decided to play around with >porting The Company (and its assorted enemies) into In Nomine. > >1) The Grays - are they demonic? Confused angels? Human? Or actually >alien? I was thinking that they might be servants of Vapula, modified by >some demonic plastic surgery or something... > Well, since you want to bastardize Black Ops and IN anyway, why not go a step further and get All the Answers! Run, do not Walk, and get Delta Green from Pagan Publishing. It's a fantastic and BIG Call of Cthulu supplement, is already in its second printing, and is already difficult to find. You will get all the neccessary motivations that you need for the Greys. A short synopsis: The Greys are in fact a manufactured race, created by the Mi-Gos to further the cause of chaos on the planet Earth and to test the governments of the world in How Far They Will Go for techonology and the benefits of having the aliens in their pocket. And Great Cthulu sleeps and dreams in R'Yleh still waiting for the stars to be right for the slumber to end and the great city to rise. And soon it will be... Using this model, think of Vapula taking Calabite stock and changing it into a sort of demonic Gregori; a sub-band dedicated to showing humanity the wonders of diabolic knowledge (as the Gregori promoted Heaven and knowledge) while pursuing chaos amidst mankind. Or think of them as agents of Kobal, creating the Great Joke (lot of talk about the Big One amidst this list; remember that Kobal is probably the most insidious of the Demon Princes - that his humor will kill and further the cause of evil while we laugh our ass off). Nybbas would be pushing his disinformation campaigns with movies like Men in Black and Independence Day, quietly laying a groundwork of questioning whether there is Something Out There, leaving the saps to wonder while Kobal does his magic. It is possible that Lilith may have her Green Hand on this, pushing humanity away from the structure and strictures of organized religion by attempting to create the illusion of an atheistic universe. And what better deal-makers than the Lilim, Balseraphim, and Impudites of Freedom? Doesn't the Black Ops book mention that the Greys are exceedingly strong, smart, and durable? Sounds like a Celestial in a Vessel to me... Just some thoughts, - -Drew ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 10:10:13 -0600 From: Bob the Dancing Monkey Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Christian Mods At 10:42 AM 12/30/97 -0500, you wrote: >Since the topic came up, and since I'm even one of the people who asked >for it, here are some modifications to IN to make it more >Christian-specific: > > Ok, Earl. You've just written what I've been trying to figure out for the past nine months. Congratulations. I've been trying to figure out how a IN game could work in a partiular religion, and I was starting to want to throw up my hands in disgust. This...could work. If anyone is interested, I'll come up with some Evangelical Christians additions/modifications (Yeah Drew, right, play IN in a Fundamentalist setting; just what everyone wants to do...but who knows? If it floats someone's boat, I'm all for it...) In the meantime, anyone want to try to take on another relgious tradition? Impressed, - -Drew ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 11:15:20 EST From: MarkDEddy Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Christian Mods In a message dated 12/29/97 8:36:59 PM, temujin9@ix23.ix.netcom.com writes: <> This is actually one of the central points of my personal theological oddity... The Job 1 vignette is very unusual. Most of the Christian traditions I know about believe that Job is actually the oldest book in the Bible. The names and places in Job put it, chronolgically, at about the time of Abraham. The character Satan is shown as having free access to both earth and heaven, but not having a place in YHWH's heirarchy. Satan (lit., "The Accuser") is shown as a celestial prosecuting attorney. Now we move to the prophets, where the character Lucifer (lit, "Light-Bearer") is introduced as the King of Tyre, the mighty one who has fallen, the (ex-) Guardian Cherub of the Heavenly Lights. This is written either peri- or post- exile, when Tyre was actually a world power, and the Princes of Tyre worshipped their God-King Molech. I don't believe these two are the same being. In game terms, the Satan of Job is much more like Dominic, and the Lucifer of Isaiah is more like In Nomine's Lucifer, with the exception that Lucifer's Band would thus be Djinn. Satan being the Seraph of Accusation, a servitor of Dominic (or even Dominic himself...) whose job is to accuse the Faithful, in game terms, would be the portion of the Inquisition that keeps an eye on Soldiers. This is one possibility for a modification... 8D Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 09:18:18 -0700 (MST) From: Jason Corley Subject: IN> IN, WoD, mortals and history On Tue, 30 Dec 1997, Frank Lazar wrote: > > One thing that strikes me as the big difference between the two, is that > despite efforts to shift it, Humans are largely irrelevant in White Wolf's > World of Darkness, especially if you play in one of those campaigns that > uses ALL of the supernatural types. With all those conspiracies, Mists, > Delieriums, whatnot, the mortals don't stand a chance in determining > history. After all the WOD and Amber playing I've done, InNomine is a bit > of a nice break. Funny, I always figured that conspiracies, Mists, Deliriums, etc. made it harder for the -supernaturals- to figure out what was really going on and put mortals -squarely- in the driver's seat in the WoD. I even started a WoD American History series of posts that had as their premise that no supernatural force has ever had any measurable effect on history because supernatural forces are, by and large, absorbed in their own little pointless battles and can all be more or less trampled by mortals who know what they want. ObIN> Maybe a few encounters like this could put the Heavenly/Infernal war into perspective for your people. Jason i know im a sicko, yes ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 11:26:52 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Christian Mods Bob the Dancing Monkey (aka "Drew") wrote: > If anyone is interested, I'll come up with some Evangelical > Christians additions/modifications (Yeah Drew, right, play IN in a > Fundamentalist setting; just what everyone wants to do...but who > knows? Glad you liked my effort. I mostly thought it out with the chunks of brain that weren't being used while I commuted this morning. I'd be very interested in an Evangelical mod list, since that's somewhat closer to my own convictions that the Catholic mods. I just did the Catholic mods as a denominational example, and because Catholicism has such a clear and well-known group of features that distinguish it from Christianity in general. Aside: Evangelicals aren't strictly speaking "Fundamentalist," but the differences might be more technical than the list in general would care about. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 11:43:11 EST From: "Perry M. Lloyd" Subject: RE: IN> The Company in IN From: MX%"in_nomine-l@lists.io.com" To: MX%"in_nomine-l@lists.io.com" CC: Subj: IN> The Company in IN >2) Is there anyway for a human to soul-kill a celestial via technology? >I've been thinking of this for a while, too, for a futuristic >post-Apocalypse IN varient I had thought up one day, and was trying to >conceive of some kind of ammunition or weapon that might be able to damage >a celestial's soul hits. Of course, I guess just repeatedly throwing the >celestial into Trauma might make it more cinematic...("I'll be back, and >you won't be able to stop me again! MUHAHAHAHA!") Can a celestial be soul-killed by technology? Ummm... well... Conservative answer: No. Liberal answer: Yes. I say.... Maybe. What might be able to do it? Some gizmo created by a servitor of Vapula? Maybe, my guess is that would have been some hapless, unwitting human scientist who's created a weapon the military doesn't want (to pay for) and can't seem to be able to sell. Sooner or later, he gets his own little Demon friends... Then, there's a little meeting between Jean and Vapula (something like: Jean: "Is this your doing, Vapula?" Vapula: "Hey, now, don't point the finger at me, we're all angels here.") or at least their servitors. Heaven (for the most part) wants to destroy the item, Hell wants it for themselves. During the course of the adventure, the device creates big bolts of lightning of various colors and does more than its share of damage to everything, and everybody, around it, perhaps killing someone (NPC Ensign, sole NPC member of the away team, etc.) and destroying a lot of scientific equipment. Then, at the very end, it's discovered that the device will only operate as long as the creator still lives. What a quandry. Can Heaven kill one human and possibly save the lives of celestials everywhere? Will the forces of Good be able to prevent the Diabolicals from making Dr. Whosit an undead? Who in Hell will want this, ratherm who doesn't? Is there anyone that wants to see it destroyed? Who will protect the human? Who is going to stab the PC's in the back for the device? - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- On the other hand, mixing Technology with "Powers from Beyond" is a common theme. I imagine a device which has been inbued with a new song, capable of doing Celestial damage on the Corporeal plane. - -alternatively- Ghost-busters, anyone? A device that forces a celestial from its vessel and then can be used to zap the Hell out of the celestial? - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd "The humans do not start from that direct perception of Him which we, unhappily, cannot avoid. They have never known that ghastly luminosity, that stabbing and searing glare makes background of permanent pain to our lives." -Screwtape (From "The Screwtape Letters", by C.S. Lewis) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 12:16:52 -0500 (EST) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Re: About those IN-WoD mods . . . On Tue, 30 Dec 1997, Garrett Taylor wrote: > Whoa there cowboy - *you* survived the beta tests. :) I have a few > choice words to say about the rules... Arrgh! One of my players is on the list! My Secrect Source of Evil GM Ideas has been compromised! When did you join? > > Okay - now post 'em. I'm anxious to *see* them for the first time... I -knew- you were a Djinn..... - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 12:20:58 -0500 (EST) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Wow.. Cool Game On Tue, 30 Dec 1997, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > You're very close. Treat the host body as a vessel > equal to the host's corporeal forces plus any toughness. > Expect that most hosts will have 1-2 tougness while the > rare ones will have 3-4. (This is in APG, btw.) Actually, John, I'm afraid you're wrong. I looked in Night Music last night, and the new, improved rules for mortal hits are (Corporeal Forces + Toughness) x Strength. - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 12:42:36 EST From: Neel Krishnaswami Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #537 : Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 08:44:03 -0500 : From: johnk@lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) : Subject: Re: IN> Some Marches questions : : On Dec 30, 6:12am, Patrick O'Duffy wrote: : : > 2. Since sorcerors aren't Soldiers, can they learn non-Corporeal : > Songs? : : There's actually a strong argument that they can't : even learn _Corporeal_ Songs! Unless I misread the Sorcerer : section, they get their sorcerous abilities, period. : What about this, Elizabeth? Did I miss something? I'm not Elizabeth, but you did miss something. :) I don't have my books with me (I'm on lunch break), so I can't give page numbers, but one of the examples of bargains with Hell is learning the Corporeal Song of Healing in exchange for cutting the brake lines on a school bus. Presumably, this would imply that learning Sorcery does not preclude learning Songs. However, I suspect that most Infernals would try to lead a Sorcerer to the belief that only demons can perform Songs, in order to foster dependency on the part of the human. After all, you can either get a single service for teaching a human a Song, or you can get one service after another by just performing the Song *for* him each time he needs it. The Dozen, IMC, are just the sorcerers who learned the Corporeal Song of Entropy. This is rare precisely because the demons like to have the assurance that they'll eventually get the sorceres's soul.... - ---- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 09:52:20 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Bowman Subject: IN> Some questions 1. This is a followup to John's answer about resonances and servitor attunements of last week. The Elohim of Destiny attunement lets them succeed automatically at the resonance when touching the subject. Can other Choirs buy this attunement or only angels who have the Elohim resonance? 2. In Feast of Blades, Hamet has all Band attunements for Alaemon. But looking at them I see most of them are pretty resonance-specific. As a Duke does he have access to other Bands' resonances like Demon Princes do? 3. Any sort of rough idea on the future releases? I see that Fall of the Malakim, Last Trumpet, IPG and Librum Reliquariam are in production. What order will they be coming out, and do we have a rough idea when? Michael Bowman bvmi@odin.cc.pdx.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 12:57:50 -0500 From: "Thomas Davidson" Subject: Re: IN> Wow.. Cool Game - ---------- > From: Casca > To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Subject: Re: IN> Wow.. Cool Game > Date: Tuesday, December 30, 1997 12:20 PM > > On Tue, 30 Dec 1997, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > > > You're very close. Treat the host body as a vessel > > equal to the host's corporeal forces plus any toughness. > > Expect that most hosts will have 1-2 tougness while the > > rare ones will have 3-4. (This is in APG, btw.) > > Actually, John, I'm afraid you're wrong. I looked in Night Music last > night, and the new, improved rules for mortal hits are (Corporeal Forces > + Toughness) x Strength. > That rule is for normal, unpossessed mortals. The section on Kyrios in the Angelic Player's Guide clarifies rules for calculating Body Hits for Kyrios. You use the Host's Corporeal Forces + Toughness in place of a Vessel Level, since most Kyrios don't have a Vessel. Thomas Davidson tdavidso@suffolk.lib.ny.us MUSIC: Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Rolling Stones, Rush, Jimi Hendrix GAMES: Champions (old and new), In Nomine, Nephilim TV: The X-Files, The Simpsons, Superman, The Tick, The Animaniacs OTHER: Religion, Philosophy, mysticism, the runes, the Tarot, writing ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 13:18:03 -0500 From: Highway Star Subject: Re: IN> The Company in IN At 10:50 -0500 12/30/97, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >I think the most interesting thing is to make them real aliens who >are working for celestials ... maybe alien celestials. Opens up >whole new dimensions. Does Lucifer have franchises on Zeta Reticuli, >or did someone else stage a separate rebellion elsewhere? Do the >Archangels of Earth also have fields of operation all over the galaxy, >or are their separate hierarchies, even alien choirs, on each planet? That kind of brings in a similarity to the In Nomine/Illuminati University crossover that Archangel Beth did... One of the sample characters in IOU is an alien. In In Nomine, the player of that character has a story that goes along something like "You were on a different front of The War, but your archangel for some reason had to move you to Earth. Unfortunately, the only vessel available was your old alien body...better hope that nobody questions you *too* hard, and that Dominic doesn't get upset at this lapse..." That would also lead to have an "Archangel of the Earth" - would he have reign over Novalis and Jordi? What power does the Demon of Mars, or whatever, have right now? Oooo! "Mars Attacks!" meets "In Nomine" as Lucifer stages a counter-attack from the Red Planet with Vapulan flying saucers and ray guns! Lots of fun for a huge amount of Calabites! At 10:01 -0600 12/30/97, Bob the Dancing Monkey wrote: >Well, since you want to bastardize Black Ops and IN anyway, why not go a >step further and get All the Answers! Run, do not Walk, and get Delta >Green from Pagan Publishing. It's a fantastic and BIG Call of Cthulu >supplement, is already in its second printing, and is already difficult to >find. You will get all the neccessary motivations that you need for the >Greys. They actually have had a copy sitting in my local game store for quite a while. I'm starting to think people in C-ville aren't much for starting new games; I was the one that managed to get In Nomine rolling AFAIK (and hell, I bought both hardcover copies, and he's only sold one or two others), and I'm the only one that shows any interest in Heavy Gear. Mebbe I'll pick up a copy of Delta Green now. I had been debating between that and Over the Edge. Do you need CoC for it? > A short synopsis: The Greys are in fact a manufactured race, >created by >the Mi-Gos to further the cause of chaos on the planet Earth and to test >the governments of the world in How Far They Will Go for techonology and >the benefits of having the aliens in their pocket. And Great Cthulu sleeps >and dreams in R'Yleh still waiting for the stars to be right for the >slumber to end and the great city to rise. And soon it will be... I had been trying to figure out ways to bring Cthulhu into In Nomine, mostly from the ethereal point of view, but I think it might tie in nicely with the alien idea posited above. However, the Greys have always seemed manufactured to me...and what a great battle it would be if a bunch of Malakim came face to face with none other then the Great Cthulhu himself...a truly dramatic ending for a campaign, methinks. > Using this model, think of Vapula taking Calabite stock and changing it >into a sort of demonic Gregori; a sub-band dedicated to showing humanity >the wonders of diabolic knowledge (as the Gregori promoted Heaven and >knowledge) while pursuing chaos amidst mankind. If so, they've already made a great start with the Internet.:) I don't know about them being Calabites, though. I can imagine a lot of BOFHs that I know being Djinn, and a lot of other tech-pushers being either Balseraphs or Haballah. No Impudites, though.:) Lilim would also profit greatly from this arrangement ("You need a Pentium 3958MHz computer with 15.6 GB of RAM and a 100 GB hard drive? Yeah, baby, I can get it for you, but you'll *owe* me...") > Or think of them as agents of Kobal, creating the Great Joke (lot >of talk >about the Big One amidst this list; remember that Kobal is probably the >most insidious of the Demon Princes - that his humor will kill and further >the cause of evil while we laugh our ass off). Nybbas would be pushing his >disinformation campaigns with movies like Men in Black and Independence >Day, quietly laying a groundwork of questioning whether there is Something >Out There, leaving the saps to wonder while Kobal does his magic. Once again, that could even tie in with the Cthulhu, mentioned before. The IN rulebook says that the formings of the "big joke" or whatever is forming in Kobal's mind. Could that possibly the resurrection of Cthulhu? ("Hahahaha! They were worried about *us* all the time, and now we have to unite or die!") Nybbas, OTOH, seemed to spend the 80s getting us ready for friendly contact, but now is getting us ready for contact with a hostile alien race (Close Encounters and ET versus Mars Attacks! and Independence Day). Maybe Lucifer was working with aliens (Cthulhu, who in HP Lovecraft's mythos *was* an alien) but then got shafted on the deal, and now the aliens are going to just kill everybody. > It is possible that Lilith may have her Green Hand on this, pushing >humanity away from the structure and strictures of organized religion by >attempting to create the illusion of an atheistic universe. And what >better deal-makers than the Lilim, Balseraphim, and Impudites of Freedom? She might be trying to free them from the constraints of organized religion, but it seems to be trapping humanity into another form of restraint - technological restraint. Perhaps she's working subtly with it, hoping to free mankind from religion, but not openly promoting technology except when it would free people (as in, giving oppressed people ham radios and Internet connections). >Doesn't the Black Ops book mention that the Greys are exceedingly strong, >smart, and durable? Sounds like a Celestial in a Vessel to me... They are, but not to the degree that Celestials are, for the most part. Also, in Black Ops, they don't even really compare to the attributes of the Ops themselves - of course, they're superhuman. IIRC, the GURPS conversion for IN suggests 1000 points for an angel. A *starting* Black Op is 700 points, and is definitely more combat-oriented. Also, he (or she, of course) doesn't affect the symphony, and has access to the highest technology on the planet. It's possible that the Cadre could have demonic influence, perhaps by Asmodeus, hunting down Renegade demons (there were multiple mentions of how Cadre members love to go on Demon hunts, and even "decapitating them with his teeth".) Or they could be influenced by an archangel, but their other habits would leave me to believe otherwise. Kronos might not appreciate The Company hunting down the members of The Lodge, who are attempting to steer events their way. Jordi would be upset at their hunts against various wigglers and beasts. Jean would be very interested in The Company's high tech equipment. David might appreciate how well they fight against the evil. Michael would definitely like their warrior skills - Laurence might too, even if they fight as dirty as their opponents. Litheroy would *hate* the secrecy their encased in. Aleamon would love it. Mammon would be horrified at their altruism (sure, they're making buckets of money, but they're spending it like mad, too). Zadkiel would love the fact that they're protecting humanity. Dominic could see a help in hunting down outcasts and renegades. Eli and Novalis would be encouraging the Science Department to convince the rest of The Company to use more non-lethal ways of subduing bad guys. Gabriel would see this as a chance to smite the cruel, even if they ignore most human cruelties, but would despise the Academy. Belial and Baal would just love the weaponary available. Saminga would be impressed by the death that follows the ops. Janus and Valefor would test their security. Marc would appreciate their manipulation of the free market system. At 11:43 -0500 12/30/97, Perry M. Lloyd wrote: >Can a celestial be soul-killed by technology? Ummm... well... >Conservative answer: No. Which would lead to the "Well, at least we put 'em in Trauma" solution, unless the bad guys are Malakim...uh, oh. "We killed him! Ugh, he's back!" BLAM BLAM BLAM "We killed him! Ugh, he's back!" BLAM BLAM BLAM >Liberal answer: Yes. Which means celestials would have to tread that much more softly when on Earth, and not just scoff at that guy with a .38, if he's actually got vessel-piercing ammunition. (Or holy/unholy bullets). >What might be able to do it? Some gizmo created by a servitor of >Vapula? Maybe, my guess is that would have been some hapless, unwitting If Vapula created it (and that would make an interesting adventure seed) I think that it'd give the demons a HUGE hand over the angels, at least, until Janus managed to steal the plans and give them to Jean for mass destruction. >human scientist who's created a weapon the military doesn't want (to pay >for) and can't seem to be able to sell. "What does this bullet do?" "It kills angels and demons." "You're whack." I can also see it ending up like the bullets from "Apocalypse Tomorrow", the story where the US government works with Hell to fight against God in Armaggedon, and wins. It also has Jesus in a Christ-mech. >Sooner or later, he gets his own little Demon friends... Or angelic. Some mafioso looking servitors of Jean... "Our boss would appreciate you not making any more of those, and we're here to make sure you don't." >or at least their servitors. Heaven (for the most part) wants to >destroy the item, Hell wants it for themselves. Sounds reasonable enough to me. >During the course of the adventure, the device creates big bolts of >lightning of various colors and does more than its share of damage to >everything, and everybody, around it, perhaps killing someone (NPC Ensign, >sole NPC member of the away team, etc.) and destroying a lot of scientific >equipment. Also giving the opportunity to have the heroic self-sacrifice ("I leap in front of the lightning bolt to keep the innocent little girl from being vaporized!") and to kill thousands of mooks/scrubs/redshirts. However, maybe it's like the guns from "Men In Black"...lots of collatoral damage, even when you hit the target. >Then, at the very end, it's discovered that the device will only >operate as long as the creator still lives. What a quandry. Hmmm. Maybe as long he's the only one who still knows *what* or *how* it's powered. >Can Heaven kill one human and possibly save the lives of celestials >everywhere? Will the forces of Good be able to prevent the Diabolicals >from making Dr. Whosit an undead? Of course, if he became an undead, I'm sure many Malakim would have no problem in whacking him right off the face of the planet. >Who in Hell will want this, ratherm who doesn't? Is there anyone that >wants to see it destroyed? Who will protect the human? Who is going to >stab the PC's in the back for the device? It'd give you some fun fun fun interparty tension as the various superiors want one thing or the other. Have someone at IOU develop it, and you get to deal with the Archdean, as well. Woohoo! >On the other hand, mixing Technology with "Powers from Beyond" is a common >theme. I imagine a device which has been inbued with a new song, capable >of doing Celestial damage on the Corporeal plane. I was thinking celestial bullets, which are overlayed with real bullets. It wouldn't take any essence to fire them, thus making them usable by normal humans, but would be slow to load, expensive, rare, or something. Or even an energy weapon that just burns right into celestial vessels. I've been wanting to send some human soldiers in Heavy Gears against some not-paying-attention celestials... "Oh they're just...oops...owowowowowow" >Ghost-busters, anyone? A device that forces a celestial from its vessel >and then can be used to zap the Hell out of the celestial? Perhaps the solidifier, one of the devices used by Black Ops to solidfy ghosts so they can just hose 'em with large caliber hypersonic bullets, would force a celestial out of their vessel and into a solid-like celestial form, making them vulnerable to bullets, etc. Of course, you've got to keep the celestial within the range of the solidifier, but life ain't easy as a black op... SeanMike just trying to make life...interesting...for his players - -- Sean Michael Whipkey, smw4s@virginia.edu Weldon Cooper Center for Public Service, Publications Div. 804/924-4185 (or -4188) voicenet, 804/982-5536 fax http://www.virginia.edu/~cpserv/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 13:38:44 -0600 From: Bob the Dancing Monkey Subject: Re: IN> The Company in IN At 01:18 PM 12/30/97 -0500, you wrote: >One of the sample characters in IOU is an alien. In In Nomine, the player >of that character has a story that goes along something like "You were on a >different front of The War, but your archangel for some reason had to move >you to Earth. Unfortunately, the only vessel available was your old alien >body...better hope that nobody questions you *too* hard, and that Dominic >doesn't get upset at this lapse..." > >That would also lead to have an "Archangel of the Earth" - would he have >reign over Novalis and Jordi? What power does the Demon of Mars, or >whatever, have right now? > >Oooo! "Mars Attacks!" meets "In Nomine" as Lucifer stages a counter-attack >from the Red Planet with Vapulan flying saucers and ray guns! Lots of fun >for a huge amount of Calabites! > >At 10:01 -0600 12/30/97, Bob the Dancing Monkey wrote: >>Well, since you want to bastardize Black Ops and IN anyway, why not go a >>step further and get All the Answers! Run, do not Walk, and get Delta >>Green from Pagan Publishing. It's a fantastic and BIG Call of Cthulu >>supplement, is already in its second printing, and is already difficult to >>find. You will get all the neccessary motivations that you need for the >>Greys. > >They actually have had a copy sitting in my local game store for quite a >while. I'm starting to think people in C-ville aren't much for starting >new games; I was the one that managed to get In Nomine rolling AFAIK (and >hell, I bought both hardcover copies, and he's only sold one or two >others), and I'm the only one that shows any interest in Heavy Gear. Mebbe >I'll pick up a copy of Delta Green now. I had been debating between that >and Over the Edge. Do you need CoC for it? Oooo. Hard choice. My first RPG love was Over the Edge. The writing for both is stupendous; both create a very specific world with which to inflict upon your players. PC body count has a tendency to run very high on both of them (Call of Cthulhu is a little nicer, actually; many PCs I know of didn't survive the airport on Al Amarja in OvtE - and every new character must go there...). For the purposes of running a Black Ops of the paranormal type, you really can't get better than Delta Green. Not only does it uncover a _much_ darker conspiracy than GURPS: Black Ops does (funny that, what with the Mythos hanging over Delta Green's head), it gives you whole appendices dedicated to law enforcement agencies in America, the basics of the Classified system (fantastic for props), and some really well-written bits to set the mood (the piece on Millenial NYC made my hair stand on end). It also probably fits a bit better into IN than GURPS: Black Ops due to the serious discussions of moral decay, decadence, and hunger for power; the Mythos, it explains, is all around us today - it needs no cult members anymore to propagate it. >> Or think of them as agents of Kobal, creating the Great Joke (lot >>of talk >>about the Big One amidst this list; remember that Kobal is probably the >>most insidious of the Demon Princes - that his humor will kill and further >>the cause of evil while we laugh our ass off). Nybbas would be pushing his >>disinformation campaigns with movies like Men in Black and Independence >>Day, quietly laying a groundwork of questioning whether there is Something >>Out There, leaving the saps to wonder while Kobal does his magic. > >Once again, that could even tie in with the Cthulhu, mentioned before. The >IN rulebook says that the formings of the "big joke" or whatever is forming >in Kobal's mind. Could that possibly the resurrection of Cthulhu? >("Hahahaha! They were worried about *us* all the time, and now we have to >unite or die!") > >Nybbas, OTOH, seemed to spend the 80s getting us ready for friendly >contact, but now is getting us ready for contact with a hostile alien race >(Close Encounters and ET versus Mars Attacks! and Independence Day). Maybe >Lucifer was working with aliens (Cthulhu, who in HP Lovecraft's mythos >*was* an alien) but then got shafted on the deal, and now the aliens are >going to just kill everybody. > On this count, there's some interesting stuff written by one of the Sub-Genii (I think it was for an X-Day Drill '97 rant, but I don't remember exactly) discussing the deception of ID4 and MiB; you recall that though the aliens were tough, humanity dispatched them with relative ease. What better way to soften up mass culture than with a couple of feel-good movies about the inherent superiority of humanity? - -Drew ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #538 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.