in_nomine-digest Thursday, February 20 1997 Volume 01 : Number 031 In this digest: IN> [Q] Hearts & Celestials Shapes IN> List conventions Re: IN> [Q] Hearts & Celestials Shapes Re: IN> List conventions IN> In Nomine/Good Omens Question Re: IN> A Review IN>Uriel and other religions IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #30 Re: IN> Bodhisattva's IN> Digest Re: IN> Bodhisattva's Re: IN> Bodhisattva's Re: IN> Christianity and Power IN> World Religions IN> Digest Re: IN>Uriel and other religions Re: IN> World Religions Re: IN> Rules and Whatever Re: IN> Rules and Whatever Re: IN> Adventure Idea... Re: IN> Bodhisattva's Re: IN> Bodhisattva's Re: IN> Bodhisattva's IN> Intro & Questions Re: IN> Bodhisattva's Re: IN> Cost of Relics IN>Uriel and other religion Re: IN> Bodhisattva's Re: IN> World Religions Re: IN> Bodhisattva's Re: IN> Bodhisattva's Re: IN> World Religions Re: IN> Bodhisattva's Re: IN> Bodhisattva's Re: IN> Bodhisattva's Re: IN> Bodhisattva's ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 17:46:03 -0600 From: Richard Godard Subject: IN> [Q] Hearts & Celestials Shapes First post to the list. So hello everybody :) I'm a French player had the chance to play In Nomine Satanis/Magna Veritas (INS/MV) eons ago. Waitting for the US version was worth it, it's very different in many way and I like it a lot :) Can't wait for Night Music :) So my questions are about Hearts. a) Can a Heart be moved from Heaven to Hell? (like you WANT to fall so you take your Heart from Heaven before Dominic's pals get it and you move it to Hell... I don't say it has to be easy... just want to know if it's possible or completely impossible) b) Can you have more than one Heart? (like in: oooops Dominic got my Heart and keep it locked somewhere to track and now my Demon Prince made me a new one?...) c) What is the process for creating a Heart? Can an Angel/Demon with his/her own Word create a Heart for him/herself? for other? Or is that the exlusive realm of ArchAngel & Demon Princes? d) Hearts can't leave the Celestial plane... where are the Hearts of Beleth/Blandine servitors? Oh and while I'm at it... a few questions about Celestials shapes :) e) Can someone disguise while on the celestial plane? (e.g. looking like a Lilim when you are en Balseraph?) or change your shape temporary or permanently? f) when an Angel fall, I guess his/her celestial appearance change, what cause that change? can it be somewhat controlled? Thanks Richard ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 16:40:54 -0600 (CST) From: darius@ldd.net (Rick Lamb) Subject: IN> List conventions As one of those swamped by trying to read all these messages, here's something I'd like to propose: Use GURU at the start of the subject line for messages dealing with rules questions. That would make it alot easier to sort out those dealing with rules questions (which I try to save) and those general chat topics. Just a thought... Rick Lamb darius@ldd.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 18:04:18 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> [Q] Hearts & Celestials Shapes At 5:46 PM -0600 2/19/97, Richard Godard wrote: >First post to the list. So hello everybody :) I'm a French player had the >chance to play In Nomine Satanis/Magna Veritas (INS/MV) eons ago. Waitting >for the US version was worth it, it's very different in many way and I like >it a lot :) Can't wait for Night Music :) > >So my questions are about Hearts. > >a) Can a Heart be moved from Heaven to Hell? (like you WANT to fall so you >take your Heart from Heaven before Dominic's pals get it and you move it to >Hell... I don't say it has to be easy... just want to know if it's possible >or completely impossible) I would think that if you're that Tripped, the Heart would have already shattered... Perhaps an about-to-Trip angel could shatter his Heart, much as a Demon can? >b) Can you have more than one Heart? (like in: oooops Dominic got my Heart >and keep it locked somewhere to track and now my Demon Prince made me a new >one?...) I think not -- it specifically says (under Falling, and Redemption boxes) that once you're realigned by an Archangel/Demon Prince, your old Heart shatters and you get a new one. >c) What is the process for creating a Heart? Can an Angel/Demon with >his/her own Word create a Heart for him/herself? for other? Or is that the >exlusive realm of ArchAngel & Demon Princes? Exclusive, I'd say. Too much complication otherwise! >d) Hearts can't leave the Celestial plane... where are the Hearts of >Beleth/Blandine servitors? In the Celestial side of Beleth/Blandine's Tethers, betcha. >Oh and while I'm at it... a few questions about Celestials shapes :) > >e) Can someone disguise while on the celestial plane? (e.g. looking like a >Lilim when you are en Balseraph?) Hrm. I think there aren't any rules for that currently, though it would be a cool trick. >or change your shape temporary or permanently? On the Celestial plane? Hm. Some celestials will change -- they tend to look like their Vessel (hm! Which one, if they have more than one??) with celestial adorenments (like wings or horns). >f) when an Angel fall, I guess his/her celestial appearance change, what >cause that change? can it be somewhat controlled? I would assume that Angels will manifest their Discord/Dissonance (that made them Fall in the first place), and the full change to their demonic Band form will happen when they get taken under the (leathery) wing of a Demon Prince(ss). It probably comes from being wrenched from the "pure" Symphony, and following their own selfish version thereof. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 17:13:08 -0600 (CST) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> List conventions > Use GURU at the start of the subject line for messages dealing with rules > questions. That would > make it alot easier to sort out those dealing with rules questions (which I > try to save) and those > general chat topics. I dunno; conventions like that seem to become unused soon after implementation IME. And if you have web-browsing capability, the In Nomine Collection by Mr. Newquist appears to save every rules suggestion sent to the list. > Rick Lamb > darius@ldd.net Oops da "And a link to my full-page character sheets!" Ogre ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 17:19:29 -0600 (CST) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: IN> In Nomine/Good Omens Question I've written up Aziraphael for In Nomine, but I'm not sure if I've remembered everything correctly since it's been a while since I've read the book... So, if you would, would you if I've misremembered or forgotten anything from the following list? Corporeal Projection, Etherial Harmony, Knowledge (Bible), Language (Eng, Latin, French), Fiery Sword, Celestial Possession Oops da "Is the Bentley's Queen tape problem a Discord?" Ogre ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 18:59:08 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> A Review At 10:04 AM -0500 2/14/97, DeltaS wrote: >On Thu, 13 Feb 1997, Jason Newquist wrote: >> Saw this review posted at Discount Games. It's by Aaron Powell, and was >> posted today. >[snip] >> http://www.discountgames.com/reviews/in_nomine.html > [...] >[...] Mr. Powell points to the fact >that the publishers "...make the mistake of putting the system before the >setting". Well, that's a matter of opinion, and not a 'glaring blemish' >on the game itself. True. I will say, just as an FYI, that I read to about the d666 part, then skipped ahead to read the background stuff (second section of the book), then went back and read the mechanics stuff last. So while I have no problem with "what comes first" in that sense, I *did* skip around and read it in the other order... O:> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 19:39:52 -0500 From: Joshua Mosqueira Subject: IN>Uriel and other religions >> one of many, or one of many seen through "judo-christian-colored" glasses? > >Ahh, yes. I'm sure the karate-christians see things differently. :-) I am sure they do, damned typo..... >But, seriously, the IN book *explicitly* states that Uriel hunted down >many of the 'pagan deities' and that the survivors live in Beleth's part >of the Realms. True, true, but my question is why was he recalled to the higher planes of Heaven for his deeds of "purification" if he was merely serving the agenda of a" Christian God" assending to power? Doesn't this idea of being punished for killing other "gods" seem to suggest that there is more to it? >, but it seems to me that the rules and background strongly >imply that the Christian God has been in power for the last 1500 years, >thanks in part to Uriel's purge. Maybe the angels, being among the lower rungs of divine providence are only getting half the picture, just like humans can only imagine the divine? "There are many different Heavens (not merely seven) inhabited by even greater celestial power than the Archangels." IN pg 136 Pax, Josh ______________________________________________ Joshua Mosqueira, effigy@total.net ______________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 17:23:48 -0800 From: Aaron Harmon Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #30 Chris, Al, and Buddy? Was this supposed to be nicknames for Christ, Allah, and Buddha? Oh, fer cryin' out loud.....:) Don't bad puns cause some form of Dissonance (i.e. use a Pun, go to Hell). Aaron, Malakim of Gabriel,Angel of PUNishment, whose special rite is Chain of Fools. Aaron M. Harmon aaron@longsword.com http://www.longsword.com Bald men do it smoother. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 21:48:04 -0500 (EST) From: Don Fnordlioni Subject: Re: IN> Bodhisattva's On Wed, 19 Feb 1997, Mark Cogan wrote: > I did some quick checking, and the major world faiths are as follows: [snip] I didn't believe these numbers on sight, since Mark didn't include any sort of source, but I found a source which verifies these numbers -- the "World Alamanac, 1994," reprinted on the Ontario Centre for Religious Tolerance. | Don Fnordlioni | donfnord@pitt.edu | http://www.pitt.edu/~donfnord | Please use PGP encryption when writing Finger donfnord@pitt.edu for key ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 20:19:35 +0000 From: "Robert Wolff" Subject: IN> Digest Can anybody tell me how the digest rules work? Is every article replicated in the digest? Do only certain articles make it into the digest? I noticed some discrepencies between the digest and the ongoing list.. just need to know what to recommend to my friends. Thanks Sincerely, Rob Wolff / Bodhi rwolff@v-wave.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 23:47:30 -0500 (EST) From: Don Fnordlioni Subject: Re: IN> Bodhisattva's On Wed, 19 Feb 1997, Mark Cogan wrote: > (and the cosmology in IN isn't even Judeo-Christian; it just Christian.) Wellllll... I'd go so far as to say it's more Judeo than Christian -- these are some pretty Old Testament badass angels, here. Not exactly of the turn-the-other-cheek sort that Jesus talks about. (Jesus who? He's not even mentioned!) | Don Fnordlioni | donfnord@pitt.edu | http://www.pitt.edu/~donfnord | Please use PGP encryption when writing Finger donfnord@pitt.edu for key ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 23:45:38 -0500 (EST) From: Don Fnordlioni Subject: Re: IN> Bodhisattva's On Wed, 19 Feb 1997, Mark Cogan wrote: > As for the real world, well, it hasn't been said explicitly, but I'd > assume that non-game related metaphysical discussions are out of place on > this list (which is unfortunate, beacuse they can be heaps of fun...) Hmm. With a game like In Nomine, they're going to be inevitable, especially since I'd /like/ to see discussions of how people run their game worlds. The nature of God and Lucifer's struggle is a (the?) central theme of IN, and this sort of "real world" information is pertinant to the game. For example, I wouldn't have guessed that christians number close to 2 billion (where the hell are they all, anyway?). Such a statistic, imo, is extremely useful to a GM who wants to run a campaign around Lawrence and Dominic's Servitors. Besides, if you don't like the "facts," the GM can always change them -- after all, in the real world, there has never been an organized "Gothic Satanist" religion, where people conduct black masses to Satan and sacrifice children and perform magic and whatnot (source: OCRT, again). But such an institution might exist in the game world. | Don Fnordlioni | donfnord@pitt.edu | http://www.pitt.edu/~donfnord | Please use PGP encryption when writing Finger donfnord@pitt.edu for key ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 00:08:43 -0500 (EST) From: Led Mirage Subject: Re: IN> Christianity and Power On Wed, 19 Feb 1997, Deathdog wrote: > Okay, okay. It seems some people disagree on whether Christianity > is the most powerful religion or not. When I made that statement, Perhaps it would help if you define "power". If you mean by shear number, Christianity probably is the most numerous, but since the seperation of Church and State, Christianity doesn't wield as much power as it did before. On the other hand, all of the Middle East countries (I think) are Islamic. ------------------------------ Date: 20 Feb 97 00:56:48 EST From: Moriah - Steve Jackson Games <73407.515@CompuServe.COM> Subject: IN> World Religions >Led: >Perhaps it would help if you define "power". If you mean by shear number, >Christianity probably is the most numerous, but since the seperation of >Church and State, Christianity doesn't wield as much power as it did >before. On the other hand, all of the Middle East countries (I think) are >Islamic. To us 'Westerners' we look at very religious people who go to Church as being 'very Christian'; whereas those who are mostly unchurched or are Christian in name only are considered 'very secular'. To those in the Middle East, even the very secular Westerners appear to them to be 'very Christian'. But appearances are deceiving. In fact, that's a good thing to put on the list of IN NOMINE Themes: 1. It's a damned Cold War 2. Good v. Evil 3. Appearances are deceiving. BTW, Judaism is quite overlooked in our production schedule, I think I'll Try To Change That. Peace, Moriah ------------------------------ Date: 20 Feb 97 00:56:42 EST From: Moriah - Steve Jackson Games <73407.515@CompuServe.COM> Subject: IN> Digest >> Can anybody tell me how the digest rules work? << I have it set that every 24 hours or after every 1200 lines of text, whichever mark is hit first, a digest is produced. A digest puts a group of messages in one email. >> Is every article replicated in the digest? Do only certain articles make it into the digest? << Yes, every article. >> I noticed some discrepencies between the digest and the ongoing list.. just need to know what to recommend to my friends. << I'm on the list and the digest and I've noticed no discrepancies. If anyone's on the list and would like it switched to digest, send an email to and in the text put on the very first line. Subject header is ignored. To recap: To: majordomo@lists.io.com Sub: blah blah blah Text: digest in_nomine-l Send the email from the email address at which you receive the list. Peace, Moriah ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 97 01:29:24 -0600 (CST) From: kestre1@airmail.net (Andrew Getting) Subject: Re: IN>Uriel and other religions At 07:39 PM 2/19/97 -0500, in_nomine-l@lists.io.com wrote: > >>> one of many, or one of many seen through "judo-christian-colored" glasses? >> >>Ahh, yes. I'm sure the karate-christians see things differently. :-) > > I am sure they do, damned typo..... > > >>But, seriously, the IN book *explicitly* states that Uriel hunted down >>many of the 'pagan deities' and that the survivors live in Beleth's part >>of the Realms. > > True, true, but my question is why was he recalled to the higher >planes of Heaven for his deeds of "purification" if he was merely serving >the agenda of a" Christian God" assending to power? Doesn't this idea of >being punished for killing other "gods" seem to suggest that there is more >to it? This is likely a deliberate loose end. No doubt both Dominic and Laurence would have agreed with Uriel. The reason why Uriel was recalled, as well as his true fate, is unresolved. >>, but it seems to me that the rules and background strongly >>imply that the Christian God has been in power for the last 1500 years, >>thanks in part to Uriel's purge. > > Maybe the angels, being among the lower rungs of divine providence >are only getting half the picture, just like humans can only imagine the divine? > > "There are many different Heavens (not merely seven) inhabited by >even greater celestial power than the Archangels." IN pg 136 Like Yves. I agree. If the Archangels knew half of what was going on, the schisms between them would probably be lesser. Kestrel ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 02:47:09 -0500 (EST) From: Led Mirage Subject: Re: IN> World Religions On 20 Feb 1997, Moriah - Steve Jackson Games wrote: > BTW, Judaism is quite overlooked in our production schedule, I think I'll > Try To Change That. I've just gotten the core book and haven't really read through it yet, but I wonder where do other religions stand in the IN universe? Aside from Judaism, the other religion that sort of linked with Christianity is Islam and its huge. Or maybe IN doesn't care? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 00:29:14 -0800 (PST) From: Benjamin Cheng Subject: Re: IN> Rules and Whatever Hello, been reading the list and find everything really cool. I plan to start running In Nomine soon (I'll start off with an adventure about an overdue book which Yves would like back.) Some quick questions and comments. To the line editor, designer, or whoever knows. How will you be doing published adventures? You do have 2 very opposed viewpoints, and then the possibilities of a mixed group. General outlines with all the characters for both sides and how the PCs could fit in on either side? In terms of the corporeal combat system, I like the idea of making body hits only equal to the vessel level x strength, as proposed on that cool In Nomine web page. But I think that should only apply to humans. Supernaturals should probably still get Corporeal Forces + Vessel Level and then times strength. The principal objections have been that normal people could soak up too much damage, I don't think anyone has complained that angels or demons do. This way it fixes the most objectionable portion (all those silly examples of shooting people with shotguns at point blank, how rude and utterly inappropriate) by simply weakening those that are weak. Of course, very tough humans can still be made, which is good. A quick general question to everyone who has been playing In Nomine either playtest or just recently. I've been thinking of changing the rules for adding to the check digit. Right now, if you need a certain number above twelve, it's an automatic success (baring intervention) and you can add the difference between what you need and 12 to the check digit. I'm thinking of changing that so you get to add 1 to the check digit for every 2 or 3 you make the roll by (or fail the roll by). This way you don't get the advantages only when you have an overwhelming chance of success. I don't know about this, so any comments would be appreciated. Anyways, will sign off now. Ben (benjamic@sfu.ca) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 05:47:33 -0600 From: Richard Godard Subject: Re: IN> Rules and Whatever At 2:29 -0600 2/20/97, Benjamin Cheng wrote: >To the line editor, designer, or whoever knows. How will you be doing >published adventures? You do have 2 very opposed viewpoints, and then the >possibilities of a mixed group. General outlines with all the characters >for both sides and how the PCs could fit in on either side? I don't know how they will do published adventures at SJG. Though I can tell you how they do it in France :) Most adventure offers two viewpoints, so they can be played either by a group of Angel or by a group of Demon... if you find another GM to work with or run the game on the net you can have the adventure being played by BOTH side simultaneously :) The funny thing though is that often the viewpoint for Angels & Demons is all-in-all not that much different :) Some adventure is just the same viewpoint but you change a few names... e.g. if your players are Demon maybe the story will be about an overdue book which Kronos would like back... or maybe both Kronos and Yves wants the book :) I don't remember many adventures where Demons & Angels work together (that is collaborating while knowing it... sometime they do collaborate without being aware of it :) Just my 30 pieces of silver :) Richard ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 11:43:44 +0000 () From: "David.Evans" Subject: Re: IN> Adventure Idea... 'Twas posted that:- > > Adventure Idea: > [Major snippage] > Okay... that's the basic premise. What do you think? I'm going to > do more, set up scenarios, encounters, stats, NPC's, Ziggy's > schedule, time-line, etc. If interest is shown, I'll work it up in a > text-based format for the group. > > If no interest is shown, I know I'm on the wrong track. Well, I dunno about anyone else, but *I'm* interested... please Sir, I want some _more_! Be seeing you... David. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 07:16:02 -0700 (MST) From: Mark Cogan Subject: Re: IN> Bodhisattva's On Wed, 19 Feb 1997, Don Fnordlioni wrote: > On Wed, 19 Feb 1997, Mark Cogan wrote: > > > (and the cosmology in IN isn't even Judeo-Christian; it just Christian.) > > Wellllll... I'd go so far as to say it's more Judeo than Christian -- > these are some pretty Old Testament badass angels, here. Not exactly of > the turn-the-other-cheek sort that Jesus talks about. (Jesus who? He's not > even mentioned!) I could be mistaken, but I think that Heaven, Hell, the Devil, fallen angels, and so forth are not a part of Judaic cosmology. Mark. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 07:27:42 -0700 (MST) From: Mark Cogan Subject: Re: IN> Bodhisattva's On Wed, 19 Feb 1997, Don Fnordlioni wrote: > On Wed, 19 Feb 1997, Mark Cogan wrote: > > > I did some quick checking, and the major world faiths are as follows: > [snip] > > I didn't believe these numbers on sight, since Mark didn't include any > sort of source, but I found a source which verifies these numbers -- the > "World Alamanac, 1994," reprinted on the Ontario Centre for Religious > Tolerance. I got my numbers from but the OCRT page is actually nicer, and it looks as if both sites used the same source material (with the difference that OTRC lists 'no religion' and 'atheism' separatley, which is interesting but incorrect, and Croghan's page lists 200 million 'Freethinkers' (lumping atheists in with agnostics and so forth) and no 'no religion' category. ) The OCRT page is: Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 08:14:14 -0700 (MST) From: Mark Cogan Subject: Re: IN> Bodhisattva's On Wed, 19 Feb 1997, Don Fnordlioni wrote: > On Wed, 19 Feb 1997, Mark Cogan wrote: > > > As for the real world, well, it hasn't been said explicitly, but I'd > > assume that non-game related metaphysical discussions are out of place on > > this list (which is unfortunate, beacuse they can be heaps of fun...) > > Hmm. With a game like In Nomine, they're going to be inevitable, > especially since I'd /like/ to see discussions of how people run their > game worlds. The nature of God and Lucifer's struggle is a (the?) central > theme of IN, and this sort of "real world" information is pertinant to the > game. For example, I wouldn't have guessed that christians number close to > 2 billion (where the hell are they all, anyway?). Such a statistic, imo, A lot of them are in the predominantly Catholic nations in South America and Europe, plus a lot of converts throughout Africa, Asia and the Pacific. > is extremely useful to a GM who wants to run a campaign around Lawrence > and Dominic's Servitors. Exactly, but that's not what I meant by metaphysical discussions. What I meant was that we shouldn't digress into discussions of the merits (or lack thereof) of real-world religious views and cosmologies. Aside from being off topic, things can easily get quite heated. I quite enjoy such debate, however, and if anybody wants to take it up with me in e-mail, that's another thing. > Besides, if you don't like the "facts," the GM can always change them -- > after all, in the real world, there has never been an organized "Gothic > Satanist" religion, where people conduct black masses to Satan and > sacrifice children and perform magic and whatnot (source: OCRT, again). My favorite tidbit from OCRT is that while there have been perhaps two confirmed cases of satanic ritual abuse, there are over a thousand known *fatalities* from cases of _christian_ ritual abuse in recent years. > But such an institution might exist in the game world. I still think that the Church of Satan is much more in keeping with the essential qualities of the demons as defined in IN (that is, selfishness). Mark. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 15:25:20 GMT From: zarlor@acm.org (Lenny Zimmermann) Subject: IN> Intro & Questions Hello all, My name is Lenny Zimmermann and I'm a LAN Administrator for Tower Life Insurance in San Antonio, Texas. I've been and avid gamer for nigh on 16 years, or so. But enough about me... To Rob Wolff / Bodhi: The rastafarian idea sounds pretty good. I know I'd love to see what you come up with! To the rest of the list: Has anyone else had problems with character creation in buying skills? It appears to me that if I spent 1 point on a skill like Running I go from (Attribute -1) to (Attribute +1), but if I spend 1 point on a skill like Chemistry I go from (Attribute -5) to Attribute +1), quite a leap for the same price. This is may current take on the situation... Each character begins with Forces * 5 (or maybe 6) instead of Forces *4, Character points. For the first level a Skill is bought at the cost of the Default. So, in the situation listed above, Running will cost the standard 1 point to achieve level 1, while Chemistry will cost 5 points to achieve level 1. All subsequent levels in that skill will cost the usual 1 pint per level. The only problem with this situation is that for a Celestial character it gives them a good deal more points to start out with for buying more powerful items, for them, like Songs or Reliquaries. You could simply start this situation as only being viable for human characters. (That is how I am starting my game off, especially since none of my players have any clue what they will be playing, yet. ;-)) Even then Soldiers can buy Songs and whatnot, so it could be just as much of a problem there (or would it be a problem?) Any thoughts? Lenny Zimmermann zarlor@acm.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 10:19:55 -0500 (EST) From: Don Fnordlioni Subject: Re: IN> Bodhisattva's On Thu, 20 Feb 1997, Mark Cogan wrote: > I could be mistaken, but I think that Heaven, Hell, the Devil, fallen > angels, and so forth are not a part of Judaic cosmology. Welp, basically, anything in the Old Testament is Jewish. So, yes, you're mistaken -- Judaism isn't just about avoiding pork and getting periodically hunted down and slaughtered en masse. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 10:39:55 -0500 (EST) From: MC Hatter Subject: Re: IN> Cost of Relics On Wed, 19 Feb 1997, Don Fnordlioni wrote: > So, I ask again, what's the point of having a "normal" Celestial relic at > character creation? Well, if you're a Soldier, it allows you to use Songs you normally can't. Or are Soldiers unable to use (say) Etherial Songs, even when contained in a relic? -Loki - -- Kirt A. Dankmyer --- Computer Services Specialist for Carswell Hall Rm 013 Carswell Hall -- x4202 -- dankmyka@wfu.edu -- PGP public key available For the Snark _was_ a Boojum, you see. --Lewis Carroll ------------------------------ Date: 20 Feb 1997 15:47:42 U From: "Andy Butcher" Subject: IN>Uriel and other religion Subject: Time: 15:24 OFFICE MEMO IN>Uriel and other religions Date: 20/02/97 >But, seriously, the IN book *explicitly* states that Uriel >hunted down many of the 'pagan deities' and that the >survivors live in Beleth's part of the Realms. Obviously, >it's a game seeting and you (and I) can do what we want >with it, but it seems to me that the rules and background >strongly imply that the Christian God has been in power >for the last 1500 years, thanks in part to Uriel's purge. Actually, as far as I can see, after a couple of fairly intensive readings of the book, In Nomine only ever refers to 'God'. The implication seems to be that while there is _a_ God, the Christian take on Him/Her/It is only one of several interpretations. In other words, I don't think In Nomine implies that God is the Christian God - He/She/It is simply God. Andy Butcher ------------------------------ Date: 20 Feb 1997 15:57:18 U From: "Andy Butcher" Subject: Re: IN> Bodhisattva's Subject: Time: 15:38 OFFICE MEMO RE>IN> Bodhisattva's Date: 20/02/97 >with the difference that OTRC lists 'no religion' and 'atheism' >separatley, which is interesting but incorrect... In what way is it incorrect? Atheism _is_ different to 'no religion'. Andy Butcher ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 97 10:06:03 -0600 (CST) From: kestre1@airmail.net (Andrew Getting) Subject: Re: IN> World Religions > > >On 20 Feb 1997, Moriah - Steve Jackson Games wrote: > >> BTW, Judaism is quite overlooked in our production schedule, I think I'll >> Try To Change That. > >I've just gotten the core book and haven't really read through it yet, but >I wonder where do other religions stand in the IN universe? Aside from >Judaism, the other religion that sort of linked with Christianity is Islam >and its huge. Or maybe IN doesn't care? Judaism was overlooked. Gabriel and, I believe, Khalid (a later addition, Archangel of Faith) are the patrons of Islam. The pagan religions are covered in the Marches. Kestrel ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 11:10:51 -0500 (EST) From: MC Hatter Subject: Re: IN> Bodhisattva's > I could be mistaken, but I think that Heaven, Hell, the Devil, fallen > angels, and so forth are not a part of Judaic cosmology. Well, Satan is mentioned in the Old Testamant, and there is an old rabbinical story attrubuting Lucifer's fall to a refusal to worship Adam... -Loki - -- Kirt "Loki" Dankmyer PGP key avail. My opinions are my own. love * Eris * RPGs * Anime * Magick * Carroll * techno * hats * cats * Dada I waked, she fled, and day brought back my night. --Milton ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 11:12:38 -0500 (EST) From: Don Fnordlioni Subject: Re: IN> Bodhisattva's On Thu, 20 Feb 1997, Mark Cogan wrote: > Exactly, but that's not what I meant by metaphysical discussions. What I > meant was that we shouldn't digress into discussions of the merits (or > lack thereof) of real-world religious views and cosmologies. Well, this sounds more like a "my God's better than your God," kind of argument you're trying to avoid. This shouldn't be too difficult a rule to enforce -- big dick contests like this are pretty obvious for what they are. So, in other words, things should be phrase things objectively, like, "Buddists believe this and this," rather than the subjective, "Buddists are better than Jews because of this and this." | Don Fnordlioni | donfnord@pitt.edu | http://www.pitt.edu/~donfnord | Please use PGP encryption when writing Finger donfnord@pitt.edu for key ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 10:50:54 -0600 (CST) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> World Religions > 1. It's a damned Cold War > > 2. Good v. Evil > > 3. Appearances are deceiving. What about the whole "Is there free will?" thing? > BTW, Judaism is quite overlooked in our production schedule, I think I'll > Try To Change That. I would hope so. The angels who are supporting Christianity in particular seem to have a rather Old Testament attitude; it'd be interesting to know how they treated Judaism before Christianity was created... > Moriah next to final> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Uh oh! Are we having some problems with dissonance? ;'o Oops da Ogre, who's read the Satanic Bible and believes that LaVey Satanism meshes quite well with the In Nomine world... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 10:25:29 -0700 (MST) From: Mark Cogan Subject: Re: IN> Bodhisattva's On 20 Feb 1997, Andy Butcher wrote: > >with the difference that OTRC lists 'no religion' and 'atheism' > >separatley, which is interesting but incorrect... > > In what way is it incorrect? Atheism _is_ different to 'no religion'. The 'no religion' category should *include* (along with agnosticsism) atheism. Most definitions of 'religion' would exclude atheists (although, some Buddhists and Unitarians qualify in some sense as atheists). The OCRT page lists 800 million or so people as having 'no religion', and another 240 million as being atheists...what this actually means is that there are over a billion people in the world who do not consider themselves to belong to any religion, and about a quarter of them consider themselves atheists. Mark. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 10:32:32 -0700 (MST) From: Mark Cogan Subject: Re: IN> Bodhisattva's On Thu, 20 Feb 1997, Don Fnordlioni wrote: > On Thu, 20 Feb 1997, Mark Cogan wrote: > > > Exactly, but that's not what I meant by metaphysical discussions. What I > > meant was that we shouldn't digress into discussions of the merits (or > > lack thereof) of real-world religious views and cosmologies. > > Well, this sounds more like a "my God's better than your God," kind of > argument you're trying to avoid. It can get more subtle than that; someone may want to say, for example "We can just think of Buddhism, Hinduism, and Shintoism as different ways of seeing the same truth", which is contentious and invites debate, without being an outright pissing contest. Mark. ------------------------------ Date: 20 Feb 1997 18:05:15 U From: "Andy Butcher" Subject: Re: IN> Bodhisattva's Reply to: RE>>IN> Bodhisattva's >>In what way is it incorrect? Atheism _is_ different to 'no >>religion'. >The 'no religion' category should *include* (along with >agnosticsism) atheism. Most definitions of 'religion' would >exclude atheists Good point - I see what you're getting at. Nonetheless, I think it's interesting to see them split into different categories - how many people just aren't religious, as opposed to those who actively believe that there is no God... Andy Butcher - ------------------------------ Date: 20/02/97 17:44 To: Andy Butcher From: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com On 20 Feb 1997, Andy Butcher wrote: > >with the difference that OTRC lists 'no religion' and 'atheism' > >separatley, which is interesting but incorrect... > > In what way is it incorrect? Atheism _is_ different to 'no religion'. The 'no religion' category should *include* (along with agnosticsism) atheism. Most definitions of 'religion' would exclude atheists (although, some Buddhists and Unitarians qualify in some sense as atheists). The OCRT page lists 800 million or so people as having 'no religion', and another 240 million as being atheists...what this actually means is that there are over a billion people in the world who do not consider themselves to belong to any religion, and about a quarter of them consider themselves atheists. Mark. - ------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------ Received: by qm-gw.futurenet.co.uk with SMTP;20 Feb 1997 17:42:41 U Received: from firewall.futurenet.co.uk by dnserv.futurenet.co.uk (8.7.5/PIPEX simple 1.27) id RAA15642; Thu, 20 Feb 1997 17:42:36 GMT Received: by firewall.futurenet.co.uk; id RAA24206; Thu, 20 Feb 1997 17:34:00 GMT Received: from lists.io.com(199.170.88.15) by firewall.futurenet.co.uk via smap (g3.0.3) id xma024167; Thu, 20 Feb 97 17:33:45 GMT Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA15248 for in_nomine-l-outgoing; Thu, 20 Feb 1997 11:29:05 -0600 Received: from mailhost.azstarnet.com (mailhost.azstarnet.com [169.197.1.8]) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA15242 for ; Thu, 20 Feb 1997 11:29:03 -0600 Received: from web.azstarnet.com (marq@web [169.197.1.3]) by mailhost.azstarnet.com (8.8.3-p/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA24888 for ; Thu, 20 Feb 1997 10:19:49 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (marq@localhost) by web.azstarnet.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id KAA05098 for ; Thu, 20 Feb 1997 10:25:29 -0700 (MST) X-Authentication-Warning: web.azstarnet.com: marq owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 10:25:29 -0700 (MST) From: Mark Cogan To: In Nomine List Subject: Re: IN> Bodhisattva's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 12:12:54 -0600 (CST) From: Bolie Williams IV Subject: Re: IN> Bodhisattva's Atheism is like a religion in the sense that it involves a belief in an essentially unprovable supernatural state, that is, the nonexistence of a god or gods. It requires as much faith as most religions require. That's only one sense, though... I wouldn't classify it as being a religion overall. Bolie IV On Thu, 20 Feb 1997, Mark Cogan wrote: > On 20 Feb 1997, Andy Butcher wrote: > > > >with the difference that OTRC lists 'no religion' and 'atheism' > > >separatley, which is interesting but incorrect... > > > > In what way is it incorrect? Atheism _is_ different to 'no religion'. > > The 'no religion' category should *include* (along with agnosticsism) > atheism. Most definitions of 'religion' would exclude atheists (although, > some Buddhists and Unitarians qualify in some sense as atheists). > > The OCRT page lists 800 million or so people as having 'no religion', and > another 240 million as being atheists...what this actually means is that > there are over a billion people in the world who do not consider > themselves to belong to any religion, and about a quarter of them consider > themselves atheists. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Bolie Williams IV bolie@io.com http://www.io.com/~bolie/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #31 ****************************** The material here is (C) 1996 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.