From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Feb 26 14:47:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by deliverator.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA03495; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 13:09:46 -0600 (CST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA31940 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 13:13:06 -0600 Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 13:13:06 -0600 Message-Id: <199702261913.NAA31940@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #42 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, February 26 1997 Volume 01 : Number 042 In this digest: Re: IN> Michael/Lucifer Re: IN> The Four Horsemen Re: IN> The Four Horsemen Re: IN> Michael/Lucifer Re: IN> Who's Who In Hell: Sitri, Demon of Homosexuality Re: IN> The Four Horsemen Re: IN> IN Typo... Re: IN> First post Re: IN> What's this list about, anyway? Re: IN> The Four Horsemen Re: IN> Coolness ;) Re: IN> First Questions IN> Re:Sitri, Demon of Homosexuality IN> The Four Horsemen Re: IN> What's this list about, anyway? IN> A Question of Cool IN> Coolness ;) Re: IN> Michael/Lucifer IN> The Four Horsemen Re: IN> The Four Horsemen Re: IN> Novalis Re: IN> [Q] Hearts & Celestials Re: IN> The Four Horsemen Re: IN> [Q] Various Qs Re: IN> A Question of Cool Re: IN> Who's Who In Hell: Sitri, Demon of Homosexuality Re: IN> Ralph, Demon of Ragweed Re: IN> The Four Horsemen Re: IN> The Four Horsemen Re: IN> The Four Horsemen Re: IN> First Questions Re: IN> Who's Who In Hell: Sitri, Demon of Homosexuality IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #41 Re: IN> Character sheets Re: IN> Bodhi's 4th Adventure IN> Malakim Oaths Re: IN> Who's Who In Hell: Sitri, Demon of Homosexuality Re: IN> Who's Who In Hell: Sitri, Demon of Homosexuality ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 09:11:11 -0500 (EST) From: DeltaS Subject: Re: IN> Michael/Lucifer On Tue, 25 Feb 1997 IQJason@aol.com wrote: >And someone who's name is lost in the ether wrote: > " I seek information > from the Seraphim, Moria (who is a Bright Belseraph, she has her own > world view, and MAKES it the truth)" > > Point of order - Mike "Moriah" Sullivan is definitively not a she. Oh here we go with the gender thing again... I said it before and I'll say it again Celestials don't have a Gend... WAIT. oops. Moria is mortal. I think, but he's a priest... do they have genders? Hrm... Ah, yes they must, since they won't allow lowly women to enter into that vocation... ;) -DeltaS - who has a gender, but refuses to allow that to define her. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 97 08:19:56 -0600 (CST) From: kestre1@airmail.net (Andrew Getting) Subject: Re: IN> The Four Horsemen At 04:18 PM 2/25/97 U, in_nomine-l@lists.io.com wrote: > Subject: Time: 15:55 > OFFICE MEMO The Four Horsemen Date: 25/02/97 > >>Just wanted to pipe up about the 4 Horsemen -- they're >>sent to Earth from God, remember. Deep down, they're >>good guys, doing God's work. > >Hmm. Only in as much as the Devil himself is doing God's work. They're harbingers of the Apocalypse. > > >(And my Bible gives them the roles of Conquest, War, >>Commerce, and Death, which looks like Baal, Michael, >>Marcus, and Saminga.) > >Double hmm. I can only assume your Bible is one of those wacky American ones ;) > >Classically, the four are classically, War, Famine, Disease, and their leader, Death. Unless, of course, you choose the Catholic Bible as the classical work, in which case it's Conquest, War, Famine, and Death. Kestrel ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 97 08:19:57 -0600 (CST) From: kestre1@airmail.net (Andrew Getting) Subject: Re: IN> The Four Horsemen At 12:00 PM 2/25/97 -0500, in_nomine-l@lists.io.com wrote: >On 25 Feb 1997, Andy Butcher wrote: > >> Hmm. Only in as much as the Devil himself is doing God's work. They're >> harbingers of the Apocalypse. > >And who says the Apocalypse is a bad thing? >It's a time when evil is destroyed, the Messiah returns, and all good >christians go to their great reward to live happily ever after. > >Only us pagans and heretics should fear the Apocalypse. If you buy into standard Christian propaganda, we're looking at a minimum of 2/3 of the world going to Hell for all eternity, without including less-than-decent Christians. Any truly good Christian will think of the Apocalypse as a bad thing for this reason. >> Double hmm. I can only assume your Bible is one of those wacky American >> ones ;) > >Well, seeing how I'm an American in America, probably. Lesse, it's.... >King James, published by The World Publishing Company, Cleveland and New >York. The verses mentioning the horsemen are Rev 6:1-8, and only Death is >actually named. > >Which bible gives the more popular names? Most don't, but they're assigned by implication and description. BTW, could you describe Commerce in your Bible? It may actually be Famine... Kestrel ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 97 08:19:58 -0600 (CST) From: kestre1@airmail.net (Andrew Getting) Subject: Re: IN> Michael/Lucifer At 11:31 AM 2/25/97 -0600, in_nomine-l@lists.io.com wrote: >>>Sure the angels could win hands down pretty quickly... >> >>Erm, where did you get this idea from? In Nomine makes it fairly clear >>that the forces of Hell currently outnumber the forces of Heaven, but the >>average Demon isn't as strong as the average Angel. The result is an >>uneasy stalemate, with neither side confident of victory (there are other >>possible reasons why the two sides haven't kicked off a 'final battle', of >>course, but this is the only one that's really clearly stated in the book). > >Considering the fact that the Angels also have God on their side, As did Lucifer, of course. It's not a given that God will support the Angels in their every endeavor. >I'm sure they'd win easily. Maybe the whole point is that God isn't ready for >Heaven to win yet, which is why He doesn't interfere. In that case, yeah, it's >probably a stalemate to some degree. The point to remember most is that each angel >is an individual, some with every demon, and they might have their *own* >agendas that have nothing to do with the War. I think this is very apparent >just skimming over the book. Most Archangels and all of the Demon Princes are directly related to the war. Dominic, Michael, and Laurence would lose a great deal of power if the war were over, and David and Blandine would both be undercut as well. >>>Evil is not cool. >> >>On the contrary, Evil can be _very_ cool - it's all a matter of >>perspective ;) > >No, evil is not cool. It looks cool sometimes, just like your friends >looked cool smoking when you were a kid. Actually, they didn't look cool. Not much cool-looking about puking ;> >Your perception of things is not Truth. Just ask God, or Plato for that matter. Wasn't aware that God and Plato formed my opinions on others. >This kind of attitude is why Lucifer has so many allies...sometimes doing >good is just a pain in the ass :) And sometimes doing good and being good aren't the same things. Kestrel ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 97 08:20:00 -0600 (CST) From: kestre1@airmail.net (Andrew Getting) Subject: Re: IN> Who's Who In Hell: Sitri, Demon of Homosexuality At 01:04 PM 2/25/97 -0500, in_nomine-l@lists.io.com wrote: >"Good up until that last line. Novalis (aka The Hippy Angel) probably >wouldn't see anything wrong with it. Free Love's one of her ideals, >at least by implication." > >Free love, absolutely. But, as the Patron of Flowers and Fertility, I think >that her darkest secret might be a hang-up about gender roles. Stamen and >pistil, men and women. And Gabriel's a pyromaniac. An Archangel's Word is NOT the absolute definition of their existence. Novalis is charged more with peace than fertility, and knowingly abandoning someone charged with a similar duty would be to betray her word. Kestrel ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 97 08:20:19 -0600 (CST) From: kestre1@airmail.net (Andrew Getting) Subject: Re: IN> The Four Horsemen At 05:15 PM 2/25/97 -0600, in_nomine-l@lists.io.com wrote: >How many American versions have you read? Do you think >that every American version is full of inner-city slang? I know that my >New American Standard Bible is a direct word-for-word translation, nothing >added, nothing taken away. Why don't you get ahold of one, read it, and >tell me what you think. Not true. Another problem you forgot to note in Biblical inaccuracies is that of mistranslations. Not all words translate directly or correctly from one language to another, and this is especially true of languages like Greek and Latin being translated to English. Kestrel ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 09:24:06 -0500 (EST) From: DeltaS Subject: Re: IN> IN Typo... On Tue, 25 Feb 1997, Molt wrote: > > "...Lowest of the high, savior-faire incarnate, Mercurians move > > smoothly...' ^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > -- S. Skoog > > Hmm.. maybe it's just me but this seems so funny I'm inclined to > believe it was intentional. Me too please. I think this was certainly intentional. There are other clever bits like that in the text, but my book is at home, in the hands of a surly demon, while I slave away at work reading this mailing list. ;) DeltaS - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 09:34:48 -0500 (EST) From: DeltaS Subject: Re: IN> First post On Tue, 25 Feb 1997, Joe Fulgham wrote: > Enough self-promotion... I'll get working on a front page for the > net.books, and put something up by tomorrow. Probably use > http://www.holycow.com/in-nomine/ so keep your eyes peeled. Good idea. BTW, Line Editor, and the powers that be, thus guy, Joe Fulgham is an ACTOR. Yep. Get him to help with the LARP rules. Yep. -DeltaS The Angel of Posturing, Cheribum of Janus. Rite: Soul of the Poseur ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 09:19:39 -0500 (EST) From: DeltaS Subject: Re: IN> What's this list about, anyway? On Tue, 25 Feb 1997, Ter Roshawk wrote: > Hey. I've been on this list for only a very short time, but I'm > considering jumping off. I was wondering, is this list talking about the > In Nomine game, or just a place for theological debates masquerading as > disscussions over a Steve Jackson RPG? [snip] > > Now, are we discussing game terms, and possible story ideas, or what? Yes. They are all storie ideas. I do not even think that these discussions come close to an honest to goodness theological debate. However, I have my own ideas about why a *cough* priest has taken such a great intrest in the game, even becoming the line editor. Hrm... could it be part of some nefarious plot by a celestial to get folks to actually *gasp* read the bible, and think about theological matters? Hrm... This stinks of a conspiracy to me... WAIT no that's INWO sorry. ;) Seriously though, how can we seperate story ideas if we don't talk about theology? -DeltaS - who is on to you, Moriah... ;) The Angel of Posturing, Cheribum of Janus. Rite: Soul of the Poseur ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 09:27:13 -0500 (EST) From: DeltaS Subject: Re: IN> The Four Horsemen On Tue, 25 Feb 1997, James Kiley wrote: > I'm feeling contrary today; this is my second post of the day. :) Get busy then, that's bush league. > > Someone who shall remain nameless wrote: > > > all that, but in the meantime there are more important things to do -- > > specifically, saving/damning peoples' souls. *That* is the important > > thing, *that* is why they fight. Sure, according to the Christian mythos > > See, I don't see that as being the reason they fight. They fight because > dicking with the other side is what they DO. It's a cold war mentality; > it's a Coke vs. Pepsi mentality; it's a Democrats vs. Republicans > mentality. Food for thought: what would they do if the 'war' were over? They would have nothing to do. Hence they should all fight the horsemen! I mean kicking around for all eternity with nothing to do would suck. -DeltaS The Angel of Posturing, Cheribum of Janus. Rite: Soul of the Poseur ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 09:40:59 EST From: jdye@juno.com (JOHN C DYE) Subject: Re: IN> Coolness ;) On 26 Feb 1997 13:43:51 U "Andy Butcher" writes: > Subject: Time: >13:25 > OFFICE MEMO Coolness ;) Date: >26/02/97 > >>>On the contrary, Evil can be _very_ cool - it's all a matter of >>>perspective ;) > >>Cool. Next time a partner cheats on you, a friend lies to you, >>you get robbed beaten, mugged, or someone decides to >>indulge in some hate or genocide, just smile and repeat the >>mantra "This is SO cool." > >As I said, it's all a matter of perspective (and I also said 'can be', >not 'always is'). > >Cool is a matter of style and attitude, not a morality judgement. Take >Good Omens (the book) as an example. Crowley (the demon) is very cool. >Aziraphel (the angel), on the other hand, is something of an >old-fashioned prude. > >Other good examples are the vast majority of 'gangster' movies - >nearly all of Quentin Tarantino's main characters are cool, for >example (George Clooney in From Dusk Til Dawn is a great example - >he's an armed robber, with several unpleasant character traits, but >he's _very_ cool.) > >It's pretty clear that Demons can be cool in In Nomine, at least by >their own standards (and the standards of their peers), and the story >about the devil on the SJG web site gives the definite impression that >many Demons think Lucifer is utterly cool. > >Like I said, morality doesn't come into it. So you say. Don't you find it the least bit curious that all the people you mentioned as cool were unrepentent scoundrals? The "cool" image has most commonly been pinned on the worst of society who happen to have panche. Superman is not cool, Batman is. Lucifer is cool, Dominic is not. Novalis is an exception in that she's cool, but she is also into that free love thing and from all of the postings, drug culture. Cool stuff: Leather jackets, drug culture, alternative lifestyles, promiscuity, motorcycles, rebellion, anarchy Uncool stuff: Disipline, monogamy (no, it's not a wood), luxury cars, contemplation of consequences. While not everything on this list is "bad", most have definative connotations in today's culture. So I'm not sure I can agree with you. That "bad boy" mystic is almost intrinsicly bound to cool. jdye@juno.com Formerly the GM God, evicted from Beleth's Lands for excessive Internet Use Since becoming John whose Word is Undead Hunter, Malakim of Gabrial in the hopes of getting some Flame proofing ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 09:53:17 -0500 (EST) From: IQJason@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> First Questions Greetings to Marco, who writes: "2. New Bands of demons: I miss a little bit my "favorit" demons the incubi and succubi. What would they be like ?" Actually...I saw the Lilim in that role, especially Lilim of Andrealphus. It's possible to "seduce" someone with more than just sexual delight, y'know. And the "Kiss Of Death" attunement seems to fit. "3. Missing demon princes: In the german issue are for example demon princes for Cold, Ocean and Illness/Plagues." Well, the Psychedelic Goblin is working on the Demon Prince of Pestilence. Anyone feel qualified to tackle the depths? again, welcome, - -J ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 09:55:40 -0500 (EST) From: DeltaS Subject: IN> Re:Sitri, Demon of Homosexuality On Wed, 26 Feb 1997, Andrew Getting wrote: > Can be. Gabriel and Dominic are the only Angels listed that can change > genders, while none of the other Angels or any Demon has been listed > with such a power (you'd think Andrealphus would be into it). Hrm. This is disturbing. Moria, can you clarify please? There is a big difference between 'Gabriel and Dominic are the only Angels listed that can change genders', and 'Gabriel and Dominic are the only Angels who DO change genders'. I just thought it was only mentioned for Gabriel and Dominic cause they tended to flipflop. I hate to think that they are the only ones who are thought of in a different light. DeltaS - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 10:02:12 -0500 (EST) From: DeltaS Subject: IN> The Four Horsemen On Wed, 26 Feb 1997, DeltaS wrote: > And it's in elglish. ;) Which obviously isn't my first language. yeesh. heh. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 10:13:45 -0500 From: dankmyka@wfu.edu Subject: Re: IN> What's this list about, anyway? >disscussions over a Steve Jackson RPG? Most of the messages I get are >wondering if Micheal has defeated Satan, if evil is "cool", what >cultures are wrong or right, and finnally, what the "true" standing of >the 4 horsemen is. > > Now, are we discussing game terms, and possible story ideas, or what? The nature of evil and the Four Horseman relate directly to the game -- it's the nature of the beast, I'm afraid. I think you'll find there's plenty character descriptions and story seeds as well, and that most of these discussions you complain of were generated by a particular character or scenario someone proposed. I fail to see how one can play a game about Angels and Demons without getting a tad bit theological... -Loki - -- dankmyka@wfu.edu minimalist .sig ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 10:19:48 -0500 (EST) From: IQJason@aol.com Subject: IN> A Question of Cool From the works of John "Six-Sided" Dye. (Yes, I will keep punning on it. It's a Rite. Which makes it a'right. :)) "So you say. Don't you find it the least bit curious that all the people you mentioned as cool were unrepentent scoundrals?" The key word there is unrepentant. What "cool" is, is distance from emotion, as opposed to "hot". Both were compliments in the Jazz Age, with the latter used to describe people who burned with intensity for what they were doing, and the former for those who did their deeds with a calm resolve. Type A versus Type B. "The "cool" image has most commonly been pinned on the worst of society who happen to have panache." Well, panache helps -- "cool" requires competence *and* detachment. But it's possible to be cool and not be evil. It's just easier, by its nature for evil to be cool. Brief IN aside: the "coolest" choir of angels would probably be the Malakim; the "coolest" of the demons, the Djinn. "Superman is not cool, Batman is." Well, yes. But that's in the nature of the characters. "Lucifer is cool, Dominic is not." Nonsense. Dominic is *very* cool. He's The Man. Laurence, on the other hand, is not cool. "Novalis is an exception in that she's cool, but she is also into that free love thing and from all of the postings, drug culture." Novalis' coolness is overrated. Behind that hippie exterior is something more shrewd: remember, she's managed to make her word into a symbol of Peace and Love. Not bad for a handful of shrubbery. :) Of course, all this hinges on the original meanings of the words, which were sprung from Gabriel (remember, she was one of the guiding influences on jazz). Nybbas has done his best to make "cool" and "hot" into his property. All Rights Reversed. yours, chilling out, - -J ------------------------------ Date: 26 Feb 1997 15:19:14 U From: "Andy Butcher" Subject: IN> Coolness ;) Subject: Time: 15:01 OFFICE MEMO Coolness ;) Date: 26/02/97 >So you say. Don't you find it the least bit curious that all >the people you mentioned as cool were unrepentent >scoundrals? No it's not surprising, because I was trying to make the point that being evil doesn't mean you can't be cool ;) (snipped list of cool and uncool things) >While not everything on this list is "bad", most have >definative connotations in today's culture. So I'm not sure >I can agree with you. That "bad boy" mystic is almost >intrinsicly bound to cool. Erm, actually, if you're saying that being evil doesn't mean you can't be cool, you are agreeing with me ;) On the other hand, I never meant to give the impression that being good means you can't be cool, either. To take one of your examples, Batman is cool. He's also on the side of good. Many (in fact most) heroes in fiction are cool, and many of them are likewise good guys - Assistant Director Skinner from the X-Files, for example, is very cool. Like I said, being cool is a matter of attitude and style, not morality. Andy Butcher arcane - the roleplaying magazine - ----------------------------------------------------- abutcher@futurenet.co.uk http://www.futurenet.co.uk/ - ----------------------------------------------------- There are only twenty-seven ways to kill somebody with a toothbrush... Rorschach knew them all. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 97 16:39 CET From: Marco Lambert Subject: Re: IN> Michael/Lucifer At 08:19 26.02.1997 -0600, you wrote: >>Considering the fact that the Angels also have God on their side, > >As did Lucifer, of course. It's not a given that God will support >the Angels in their every endeavor. > >>I'm sure they'd win easily. Maybe the whole point is that God isn't ready for >>Heaven to win yet, which is why He doesn't interfere. [Snip] If I may quote a old but competent source: the "maleum maleficarum" or "witch hammer" a book about the knowledge of witches, possessed beeings and demons and also then their judgement (with case-studies) written by two inquisitiors/monks in the 15th century as a kind of handbook for their fellow witchhunters. About the question of all these evil demons and evil men in the world they say: "God does not allow evil, God does not forbid evil either, God does allow the posibility of evil." Wich also is stated in modern theology as the freedom of mankind to choose between good and evil. Perhaps does God allow also the angels and demons to choose ? Bye and tschuess, Marco. ________________________________________________________________ Marco Lambert (Dipl.-Phys.) * Universitaet Kaiserslautern * Email:lambert@rhrk.uni-kl.de Fachbereich Elektrotechnik * Tel.:(+49) 631/205-3354 Lehrstuhl fuer Mikroelektronik * Fax.:(+49) 631/205-3616 Postfach 3049 * D-67653 Kaiserslautern * Geb.: 12 Raum:262 Germany * ________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: 26 Feb 1997 15:40:58 U From: "Andy Butcher" Subject: IN> The Four Horsemen Subject: Time: 15:14 OFFICE MEMO The Four Horsemen Date: 26/02/97 >>Which bible gives the more popular names? >I'd like to answer this...Any Bible that names them all is full >of shit. ;) Well, ignoring the discussion of the accuracy of different Bibles, it's true that no Bible I've read specifically names the other three. However, there are some strong implications of their 'area of interest' ;) Revelations 6:8 reads (this is the King James, but there are few differences between the versions I've seen): "...to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth." My interpretations of this are: Sword = War Hunger = Famine Death = Death ;) "Beasts of the Earth" is slightly less clear, but given that Revelations then goes on to mention swarms of locusts, scorpions, and associated diseases (the Bible is very firm in equating 'animals' with 'unclean'), I'd say Pestilence is a fair choice of word - 'pestilence' doesn't just mean 'disease' in a medical sense. Andy Butcher arcane - the roleplaying magazine - ----------------------------------------------------- abutcher@futurenet.co.uk http://www.futurenet.co.uk/ - ----------------------------------------------------- There are only twenty-seven ways to kill somebody with a toothbrush... Rorschach knew them all. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 10:47:52 -0500 (EST) From: IQJason@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> The Four Horsemen Revelations 6:8 reads (this is the King James, but there are few differences between the versions I've seen): "...to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth." *** Killing with death, eh? How very efficient. It's like cooking with food, I suppose. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 97 10:42 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Novalis [Derek:] > I can't wait to see the >Servitors of Eli fleshed out -- that's scheduled for next year. Next year...? Argh! I want it *now*.... - ---Walter (whose Word is *not* Morning....) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 97 11:27 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> [Q] Hearts & Celestials [Moriah, answering questions:] >e) Can someone disguise while on the celestial plane? (e.g. looking like a >Lilim when you are en Balseraph?) or change your shape temporary or >permanently? > > In Heaven, no... unless you're a demon. But demons can't go to heaven... >or can they? Anyway, this is more a GM call for the purposes of their >campaign. I'd make any PC with the power to disguise their Celestial Form >pay for it. Obviously, then, one way to find out exactly what you're dealing with is to somehow force it to go celestial. Incidentally, this brings up an ancillary question: can characters with the Seraph of Yves servitor attunement (who can tell the "true name" of a person they touch) determine the true nature of a being? It seems that the ability to discern a "true name" likely means hearing the thread of the Symphony associated with the person. Certainly it seems plausible that you could tell the Word of a Word-bound celestial, at the least, and that it might be possible to determine angel/human/demon and Choir/Band, though not probably not Superior (unless the celestial is close to being Word-bound to a Word related to the Superior's). >f) when an Angel fall, I guess his/her celestial appearance change, what >cause that change? can it be somewhat controlled? > > Metaphysics. Angel are creatures whose *nature* is attuned to some part >of the Symphony - their Choir, their Superior, their own Word. By rejecting >that nature, their Resonances change... they strike a new chord. Their >outward appearance reflects the Resonance of a Dark Angel. This implies that Outcasts probably ought to have a "tainted" angelic celestial form that reflects the fact that they've sort of partically Fallen. Renegades are another case, depending on whether they're just running away from their former Prince, or actually on the road to Redemption. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 11:24:49 -0500 (EST) From: DeltaS Subject: Re: IN> The Four Horsemen On Wed, 26 Feb 1997 IQJason@aol.com wrote: > "...to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts > of the earth." > Killing with death, eh? How very efficient. It's like cooking with food, I > suppose. This is probably one of those 'translation' problems, from Greek to whatever. There may be a word that means someting similar to 'death' but has just the tiniest different connotations... DeltaS - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 97 11:32 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> [Q] Various Qs [More Moriah:] >> This IN> thing on the subject line, do you need this or is it added >>automatically? > > It is added automagically. Now, if we can get people to stop adding the >RE: to the subject line... we all know that a subject line tells us what the >message is in REgards to. Well, *people* don't usually add it -- it's considered proper netiquette in email reply subject headers, and most mailreaders add it automatically when the user does a reply operation. I suspect editing it out is painful in a lot of mailreaders.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 97 11:47 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> A Question of Cool [IQJason:] >Well, panache helps -- "cool" requires competence *and* detachment. But it's >possible to be cool and not be evil. It's just easier, by its nature for evil >to be cool. Brief IN aside: the "coolest" choir of angels would probably be >the Malakim; the "coolest" of the demons, the Djinn. Actually, by that definition, I think the Elohim would probably qualify as the "coolest" angels -- after all, detachment is what they do. On the other hand, they don't really seem to score any points for style.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 12:03:56 -0500 (EST) From: HarlinHirs@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Who's Who In Hell: Sitri, Demon of Homosexuality In a message dated 97-02-26 09:21:46 EST, someone wrote (Durn, I gotta get back off AOL): << >Free love, absolutely. But, as the Patron of Flowers and Fertility, I think >that her darkest secret might be a hang-up about gender roles. Stamen and >pistil, men and women. And Gabriel's a pyromaniac. An Archangel's Word is NOT the absolute definition of their existence. Novalis is charged more with peace than fertility, and knowingly abandoning someone charged with a similar duty would be to betray her word. >> Additionally, don't most flowers have BOTH stamen and pistil? If you carry this to its logical extreme, Novalis would find any sexual activity that didn't involve bees distasteful... Paul. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 12:04:24 -0500 (EST) From: HarlinHirs@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Ralph, Demon of Ragweed In a message dated 97-02-26 01:07:48 EST, Deathdog wrote: > Here he is...my first attempt. > Disclaimer: This is *really* stupid. > Actually, I like Ralph a lot... He may actually find his way into my game at some point. Paul. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 97 18:12 CET From: Marco Lambert Subject: Re: IN> The Four Horsemen At 11:24 26.02.1997 -0500, you wrote: >On Wed, 26 Feb 1997 IQJason@aol.com wrote: > >> "...to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts >> of the earth." >> Killing with death, eh? How very efficient. It's like cooking with food, I >> suppose. > >This is probably one of those 'translation' problems, from Greek to >whatever. There may be a word that means someting similar to 'death' but >has just the tiniest different connotations... Yes, in this case it means death by natural cause. Therefor the death figure has the hourglass with him the connection to your time on earth, wich is over when he comes. This death is not to confuse with death by force (War/Sword) Disaster (hunger) or a illness not related to just old age. (pestilence). bye and tschuess, Marco. ________________________________________________________________ Marco Lambert (Dipl.-Phys.) * Universitaet Kaiserslautern * Email:lambert@rhrk.uni-kl.de Fachbereich Elektrotechnik * Tel.:(+49) 631/205-3354 Lehrstuhl fuer Mikroelektronik * Fax.:(+49) 631/205-3616 Postfach 3049 * D-67653 Kaiserslautern * Geb.: 12 Raum:262 Germany * ________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 12:14:43 -0500 (EST) From: Don Fnordlioni Subject: Re: IN> The Four Horsemen On 26 Feb 1997, Andy Butcher wrote: > I'd say Pestilence is a fair choice of word - 'pestilence' doesn't just > mean 'disease' in a medical sense. Hmm, I never associated pestilence with disease --- I always assumed "pestilence" was specifically insects, small frogs, or other bothersome swarms, which (in the case of, say, mosquitos), is sometimes accompanied by "plague." | Don Fnordlioni | donfnord@pitt.edu | http://www.pitt.edu/~donfnord | Please use PGP encryption when writing Finger donfnord@pitt.edu for key ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 12:11:04 -0500 (EST) From: Don Fnordlioni Subject: Re: IN> The Four Horsemen On Wed, 26 Feb 1997, Andrew Getting wrote: > >Only us pagans and heretics should fear the Apocalypse. > > If you buy into standard Christian propaganda, we're looking at > a minimum of 2/3 of the world going to Hell for all eternity, without > including less-than-decent Christians. Any truly good Christian > will think of the Apocalypse as a bad thing for this reason. Eh. I think you're mixing definitions of "Christian" with the upper-case version (a devotee of Jesus, the Bible, and associated teachings), and the lower-case version (a generally good person). > Most don't, but they're assigned by implication and description. > BTW, could you describe Commerce in your Bible? It may > actually be Famine... Nod -- I know he's called Famine popularly, but the way I read it, it looks more like Commerce (on a black horse): "...and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand ... A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny" Sounds like standard weights and prices to me -- a measure is about 1/5 of a U.S. bushel, and a penny is worth about a day's wages. This is just a guess, though, about the worth of a measure of wheat and barely, but it doesn't sound like a shortage. | Don Fnordlioni | donfnord@pitt.edu | http://www.pitt.edu/~donfnord | Please use PGP encryption when writing Finger donfnord@pitt.edu for key ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 12:48:48 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> First Questions At 3:18 PM +0000 2/26/97, Marco Lambert wrote: >2. New Bands of demons: >I miss a little bit my "favorit" demons >the incubi and succubi. What would they be like ? >Or are this just human descriptions for some of >the servitors of Andrealphus ? Incubi and Succubi are probably names for various demons: Lilim in various guises -- quite possibly Lilim who serve Beleth, as well as those who like Andre. Impudites, again serving Beleth as well as the obvious Andre. Other potentials are Shedim who have some kind of varient possession. Some demons might have created Incubi and Succubi (in an effort to become free of "forign" lilitu), making them a Band that we haven't seen before (and which didn't make it into this book). We're certainly supposed to be getting more data in subsequent books, which may or may not include Incubi and Succubi -- but I think there are enough demons around already who fit the bill (unless they're *supposed* to be knock-off copies of Lilim). - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 12:53:07 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Who's Who In Hell: Sitri, Demon of Homosexuality At 1:04 PM -0500 2/25/97, IQJasonS@aol.com wrote: >"Good up until that last line. Novalis (aka The Hippy Angel) probably >wouldn't see anything wrong with it. Free Love's one of her ideals, >at least by implication." > >Free love, absolutely. But, as the Patron of Flowers and Fertility, I think >that her darkest secret might be a hang-up about gender roles. Stamen and >pistil, men and women. Novalis isn't the Patron of Fertility -- Eli is. Creation, remember? That's why consensual sex generates Essence for his servitors, and you get a bonus to call him if you have *unused* contraceptives. If anything, Eli himself might be the one who would be slightly concerned over an angel with a Word that does not promote genetic reproduction. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 09:52:32 -0800 From: Aaron Harmon Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #41 So would a lilim have her heart in the same manner as a servitor of Eli? ____________________________________________________________ Aaron M. Harmon aaron@longsword.com http://www.longsword.com ____________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 13:27:12 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Character sheets At 7:09 PM -0600 2/24/97, warlock@webstar.net wrote: >However, before we begin playing, we need character sheets. I remember >somebody posting that they had made sheets and put them on their web >page...but I can't find that message anywhere. I'm sorry for asking the >question again and wasting bandwidth, but, WHERE ARE THEY? Well, here's a place... I have a first-draft of an Excel In Nomie character sheet. If I get permission from the Powers That Be, I'll gladly ship it along to someone. (I *was* waiting till I saw something about which Fighting rule was going to be in effect... And there's a few other bugs here and there, but it's pretty useful, *I* think.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 13:32:12 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Bodhi's 4th Adventure At 1:25 AM +0000 2/25/97, Robert Wolff wrote: >Adventure Idea: > >Title: All's Well that Ends Well I love this. The only thing I'd add would be Grigori or Children of Grigori... [...] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 11:56:28 +0000 From: "Robert Wolff" Subject: IN> Malakim Oaths I appreciate your efforts in this area. I personally found it one spot that was distressingly under-defined, and far too open to player abuse. What I'd like to know is, do Malakites, when they do something 'anti-resonance', then just add another oath instead of gaining a point of dissonance? That's the way we've been playing. This way, Malakites don't get off 'scott free', as it were, and they still have to pay the piper when they go against their nature. It's still true that "makakites don't fall", but some malakites have to make much more stringent promises to restrain themselves much more than others do. Sincerely, Rob Wolff / Bodhi rob@v-wave.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 13:57:45 -0500 (EST) From: DeltaS Subject: Re: IN> Who's Who In Hell: Sitri, Demon of Homosexuality On Wed, 26 Feb 1997 HarlinHirs@aol.com wrote: > And Gabriel's a pyromaniac. An Archangel's Word is NOT the absolute > definition of their existence. Novalis is charged more with peace than > fertility, and knowingly abandoning someone charged with a similar > duty would be to betray her word. I honestly thought that an Angel/Demon's word certainly IS the absolute definition of their existence. I thought that they were, or became a personification of their word. I honestly thought that was the whole idea. -DeltaS The Angel of Posturing, Cheribum of Janus. Rite: Soul of the Poseur ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 14:09:29 -0500 (EST) From: IQJason@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Who's Who In Hell: Sitri, Demon of Homosexuality Elizabeth McCoy (who may remember me from the SJG conference at Arisia; I was the one in the black and the fluffy shirt) said: "If anything, Eli himself might be the one who would be slightly concerned over an angel with a Word that does not promote genetic reproduction." As far as I can see it, he was. But only slightly -- after all, sexuality does seem to be under his aegis, and that's sexuality of all kinds. "That's why consensual sex generates Essence for his servitors, and you get a bonus to call him if you have *unused* contraceptives." ...like that. :) And about Novalis...you're right. Fertility is not strictly her word. Then again, neither are "growth and nurturing", which are also associated with her. She's done a great deal of work in making flowers a key musical phrase in the symphony: you give them as a sign of reconciliation, you see them at all popular ceremonies (weddings, funerals) and so on. So, I associated her connection of Growing Things with a sense of fertility in the Demeter sort of way. yours, - -J ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #42 ****************************** The material here is (C) 1996 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.