From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Mar 12 07:59:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by deliverator.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA16064; Wed, 12 Mar 1997 07:59:03 -0600 (CST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA30197 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 12 Mar 1997 08:02:09 -0600 Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 08:02:09 -0600 Message-Id: <199703121402.IAA30197@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #68 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, March 12 1997 Volume 01 : Number 068 In this digest: Re: IN> In Nomine FAQ (3/10/97) Re: IN> IN vs. INS/MV Re: IN>GMing IN> Servitor attunments for Jordi Re: IN> Songs and Vessels Re: IN> Songs and Vessels RE: IN> Songs and Vessels IN> Highlander Race---- The Churahn IN> Numinous Corpus [Was Songs and Vessels] IN> Religion - Prophets Re: IN> Angels and Freewill Re: IN> Religion Re: IN> Songs and Vessels Re: IN> In Nomine FAQ (3/10/97) IN> Animal Vessels Re: IN> Songs and Vessels Re: IN> Numinous Corpus [Was Songs and Vessels] Re: IN> Who's Who In Hel(l,p): Request for advice Re: IN> A Few Thoughts.. Immortals + Others Re: IN> Celestial Agreement Re: IN> Religion Re: IN> Angels and Freewill Re: IN> Ponderables Re: IN> New Major Demon and Hi! Re: IN> Animal Vessels Re: IN> Angels and Freewill ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 11 Mar 97 17:48 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine FAQ (3/10/97) [johnk:] >> Instead of: "To swap vessels, spend 1 Essence and flow from one >> to the other over the course of a round (Total Noise: [Forces]+1)." > > > Whoa. I think I know where the confusion is coming from. >The rules on p. 54-55 only list going to _Celestial_ Form as >being noisy, NOT going to a Corporeal Form. Entering a Corporeal >Vessel causes NO disturbance unless you need Essence to do it. >So swapping Corporeal forms causes 1 Disturbance total. > The only time I know of that going into a Corporeal >Vessel will cause a lot of disturbance is when you do it while >entering the Corporeal Realm (i.e. you manifest on Earth). > Since there is no cost listed for assuming a Corporeal >Vessel when one is Celestial on earth, I must assume that there >is no cost and that makes no Disturbance. This somewhat conflicts with Moriah's statement on the subject from 2/20: - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >(ii) Does switching to celestial form cause the same degree of disturbance in >the Symphony as actually leaving or returning from the Celestial Realm? Does >the 2 essence required to change into Celestial form add to this? If >switching form does cause the same disturbance, does a celestial going to the >Celestial Realm cause double the disturbance (once for changing form, and >again for leaving)? Yes. Yes. Yes, although entering doesn't cause double since one enters the Corporeal Realm directly into a vessel. As a general guideline, GMs should always make the Disturbance rules side with celestial powers being as noisy as possible. Celestial powers make celestials hot stuff on earth, but there is always risk involved -- being noticed. The 2 Essence is added since there are times when a celestial doesn't have to spend that Essence, e.g., transforming in a Tether (although, compared to the noise a Tether makes, who would notice?). And, since it's been discussed on the list, here. Let me add that switching vessels should be as loud as going celestial. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 14:58:41 -0800 (PST) From: Raven <94fa193@dvc.edu> Subject: Re: IN> IN vs. INS/MV On Mon, 10 Mar 1997, Andrew Getting wrote: > > From comments and various snatches of conversation, I have > >gleaned the following (probably accurate) information: > > > >1) The mechanics are different > >2) The background has been modified in MANY details A little more detail than this would be nice. Anyone know them? > Didn't an ancient Pyramid magazine article cover the differences? THAT would be nice to see. If the SJG guys could be nice enough to post that article on teh IN page (hint hint, assuming the article exists), that would be oh-so-nice of them... |\ /| | | |~~~ |\ | "It's a hundred and six miles to Chicago, we've |_\ /_| | | |__ | \| got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, |\ | | \ | | | | it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses." | \ | | \| |___ | | "Hit it." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 18:43:21 +0000 From: "Joel Cardella" Subject: Re: IN>GMing > Music: [music stuff snipped] I'm glad someone is mentioning music. I would recommend: Angelic: "In Paradisium", by someone I forget on the Hyperion label. Very angelic. Beethoven's 9th (Chorale Symphony) Carmina Burana. Demonic: Danzig, "Black Aria". Described as 'evil classical music.' Very cool. Misc: Anything by Peter Gabriel (I'm a fan) or Enya (I'm a GREAT fan) > Props: [Prop stuff snipped] Very cool! Especially the stained glass idea! I'm buying an overhead! Wow! - --------------------------------- Joel Cardella All the powers of a man bestowed on a man. http://www.io.com/~dronf ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 15:37:00 -0800 From: Steven Feldon Subject: IN> Servitor attunments for Jordi Has anyone else noticed that Jordi's servitor attunements. . . um, aren't attunements at all, really? All of his servitors have one ability: anything you do in your Proper Animal Form, barring genuinely celestial activity, doesn't disturb the Symphony. This is a cool ability, but it's not in pattern for the rest of the Archangels. I was wondering if this was an oversight or whehter this ability is really more keen than I think it is. My co-ref and I were considering giving Servitors of Jordi some additional marginal abilities, too, like the ability to upgrade the Vessel level of animal vessels after creation, or something like that. . . . steve ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 10:46:12 +1000 (EST) From: Peter Frederick Subject: Re: IN> Songs and Vessels Dear Elizabeth (and List) Elizabeth McCoy asked >*Hypothetical Lead up clipped for Brevity* >Do you keep the ability to use the Claws, or do those go with the >vessel when you swap it back into "mallet space?"* > IHMO I would say yes. I mught make the player send the Claws to their Claw-Space before the change, but I would then let them bring them back. I might make them make some sort of roll to coordinate the Claws, or wahtever, with the new Vessel. On sort of the same track I am currently negotiating with a player to allow him to buy a personal "Flaming Sword" as the Claws NC. Anyone got any thoughts about shuffling around with the visual effects of this Song? Thanking you for your indulgence. Yours Peter. Email to peterf@geko.net.au "Whoso loveth God truely must not expect to be loved by Him in return." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 19:01:17 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Songs and Vessels At 10:46 AM +1000 3/12/97, Peter Frederick wrote: >Elizabeth McCoy asked >>*Hypothetical Lead up clipped for Brevity* >>Do you keep the ability to use the Claws, or do those go with the >>vessel when you swap it back into "mallet space?"* > >IHMO I would say yes. I mught make the player send the Claws to their >Claw-Space before the change, but I would then let them bring them back. I >might make them make some sort of roll to coordinate the Claws, or wahtever, >with the new Vessel. Retracting Claws seems to be the "default" for that ability, so that's cool. (True enough that long Claws on an animal vessel might make movements problematic -- and where would a bird vessel put it?) Are other Numinous Corpus "retractable" so that they can be shifted along with the vessel? >On sort of the same track I am currently negotiating with a player to allow >him to buy a personal "Flaming Sword" as the Claws NC. Anyone got any >thoughts about shuffling around with the visual effects of this Song? Sounds good to me, but the "flames" should be non-hot -- it's a special visual effect, not actual flames. And it will only be 6 inches to 1 foot long... ;-) (Or otherwise have only the stats listed for Claws.) Sounds like a nice customizing thing -- why should Wings be the only Numinous Corpus that reveals the celestial's heritage? (Does the Wings manifestation change with celestial status (angel/demon), or is it "set" for the aspect that it was learned at?) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 16:36:20 -0800 From: "Lonnie Foster (Volt Temp)" Subject: RE: IN> Songs and Vessels Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >Retracting Claws seems to be the "default" for that ability, so that's > >cool. (True enough that long Claws on an animal vessel might make > >movements problematic -- and where would a bird vessel put it?) > > Bird vessels are easy: talons. I've got a Malkite of Janus with an > Eagle/1 vessel and Claws/3. Makes for a good death from above sort of > attack. > > I'll agree, though, that foot-long claws on a housecat could cause > some severe mobility problems. Though I can envision someone reaching > down to pet that nice little kitty, which leaps snarling into the air, > producing Vorpal Kitty Slicers of Doom(tm) from thin air and reducing > the would-be cat lover to a puree... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 19:45:49 -0500 From: Hatcher Rhanyr Subject: IN> Highlander Race---- The Churahn This is what I've come up with as far as characters that I've adapted to IN from the movie Highlander. Please tell me what you think of this. *********************************************************************** The Churahn Many ages ago, Dominic devised a plan that would wipe the evil seed that had spread across Creation like a plague. With the help of Eli and the other Archangels they set about to create a race neither Angelic nor Human. The thought of the Dominic and Eli, acting like God, frightened many of the Archangels but they helped none the less. Eli took a portion of an Angels "soul" from each band and then selected a human "soul" to combine it with. Then they formed a vessel around this soul and named him Churahn, in honor of the essence of eternity and man. Yves knowing that this was all part of God's plan took the information on how Eli created Churahn and gave it to Kronos, for him to deliver to the Demon Princes. The Demon Princes repeated what the Archangels had done and created another named Kaurneh. Churahn and Kaurneh went together and they began to have children. Dominic questioned how this was possible but Eli had vanished. The Children, named after their father began to reproduce as well. What had started as a dream had quickly decended into nightmare. However Eli returned to rectify this mistake and made the descendants of Churahn no longer able to reproduce. However this still did not stop them from abusing humanity. Then God brought his wrath down upon the Archangels. God cursed the Churahn with an insatiable desire to destroy one another. As each Churahn took another one's head (this is one of the only ways to destroy one) they became enveloped in that Churahn's essence and absorbed his/her skills. God also made it so that each Churahn could sense when another is near. However as each Churahn is at least part Celestial, God declared that no Churahn may take another's life on holy ground. God's last proclamation was that in the end there can be only one. GAME MECHANICS: Churahns usually have between 6 and 8 Forces. It is impossible however for a Churahn to reach 9 Forces though. Like their human counterparts they can only use Corporeal songs. However they do have the ability to conciously use Essence which they regain like humans, at noon. There are several rites that allow a Churahn to regain essence more quickly though. By taking another Churahn's life, the victor gains the fallen Churahn's essence. Also while on holy ground, Churahn gain 2 points of Essence instead of one each day. ABILITIES: Immortality The Churahn are almost immortal in that they can regenerate 1 hit per round. However even when a Churahn has taken all the hits his body can take, he/she still regenerates. The only true way to ensure a Churahn's death is by decapitation (severing of the head). Sense Another This ability is always in effect. When a Churahn gets within 100 ft of another Churahn they mutually sense each other. On a successful Perception roll the Churahn can also tell who exactly this Churahn is. ************************************************************************ I hope you all like this!!!! ************************************** _< >_ * Hatcher Rhanyr * / \0/ \ * "The Angel of Bright Shiney Teeth" * /_/| |\_\ * * / \ ************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 11:57:07 +1000 (EST) From: Peter Frederick Subject: IN> Numinous Corpus [Was Songs and Vessels] Dear Elizabeth (and List) At 07:01 PM 11/3/97 -0500, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >At 10:46 AM +1000 3/12/97, Peter Frederick wrote: >>Elizabeth McCoy asked >>>*Hypothetical Lead up clipped for Brevity* >>>Do you keep the ability to use the Claws, or do those go with the >>>vessel when you swap it back into "mallet space?"* >> >>IHMO I would say yes. I mught make the player send the Claws to their >>Claw-Space before the change, but I would then let them bring them back. I >>might make them make some sort of roll to coordinate the Claws, or wahtever, >>with the new Vessel. > >Retracting Claws seems to be the "default" for that ability, so that's >cool. (True enough that long Claws on an animal vessel might make >movements problematic -- and where would a bird vessel put it?) Bird Claws, first guess on the Feet. But they could be a WIng buffet. >Are other Numinous Corpus "retractable" so that they can be shifted >along with the vessel? Acording to the description on page 82 they really are mallet-space objects. You don't retract them. Once you are successful at the song you can make them come and go as often as you like for the next [Check digit] hours. >>On sort of the same track I am currently negotiating with a player to allow >>him to buy a personal "Flaming Sword" as the Claws NC. Anyone got any >>thoughts about shuffling around with the visual effects of this Song? > >Sounds good to me, but the "flames" should be non-hot -- >it's a special visual effect, not actual flames. And it will only be >6 inches to 1 foot long... ;-) (Or otherwise have only the stats >listed for Claws.) Sounds like a nice customizing thing -- why should >Wings be the only Numinous Corpus that reveals the celestial's heritage? If we are going with the "Super-Real" celestial thing (which explains why a celestial who has one vessel that looks like a child and another that looks like Arnie has the same strength) then it doesn't matter what the thing looks like, it only matters what it IS. Nice point about the flames, I don't think I'll let him light cigarettes (or anything else) with it. >(Does the Wings manifestation change with celestial status (angel/demon), >or is it "set" for the aspect that it was learned at?) Depends on how your Ref feels. I would say it should be indicative of your celestial nature, and probably would change if you Fell or were Redeemed. But possibly not, Lucifer tho fallen is still seen as blindingly beautiful sometimes. Thanking you for your indulgence. Yours Peter. Email to peterf@geko.net.au "Whoso loveth God truely must not expect to be loved by Him in return." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 12:36:48 +1000 (EST) From: Peter Frederick Subject: IN> Religion - Prophets Dear Greg (and List) At 03:38 PM 11/3/97 EST, you wrote: >>Gregory Littman: >>That sounds good. Does it apply equally to the Archangels though? Wouldn't >>Michael have had enough of a chat with the Almighty to know who Jesus was? >>At the very least, wouldn't SOME Angel have checked out Jesus 2,000 years ago >>just to see if the miracles were real, if nothing else. > IMHO it is likely that the major figures of the worlds religions were either Celestials (of either side playing out important Roles, were visited by a Messenger of God or the sort of people who went on to be Saints (as defined in game). Interesting to think what might have happened to these spirits/souls. I am taken with an idea at the moment [Nod to Rob Wolff / Bodhi] that Jesus and Buddha were the same person, well reincarnated, but you get the idea. Further speculation as to who else might have been reincarnations of whom is left to the interest of individuals. Thanking you for you indulgence. Yours Peter. Email to peterf@geko.net.au "Whoso loveth God truely must not expect to be loved by Him in return." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 12:48:59 +1000 (EST) From: Peter Frederick Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Freewill Dear Josh (and List) > This of course assumes that angels have freewill. I know that for IN to >function as a game, angels (being PC's) must have freewill, if not the >player will get seriously board. However, one common conception of angels >(do not have my books with me) is that they have no will, except that of >God, which they devoutly (blindly?) follow. At the same time there is >supposed to be one instance in an angel's existence when it is confronted >with the choice of continuing his servitude, or falling and achieving >Freewill. One reason devils are selfish is that they posses a form of freewill. > But the angels in IN have freewill, at least they think they do, >but this leaves them open to doubt, the biggest threat to any faith. So, >how do the Servents of the Divine feel when God isolates himself, as he has >done in the modern age, from their activities and that of the world? Could >the apparent absence of God become a catalyst for more angels, who feel >abandoned, to fall? Do Archangels like Laurence and Dominic take this as >carte blanche to further their agendas? And why is Yves silent, is there >something he does not want his fellow angels to discover? > These are the questions I started asking myself when I first read >the game, and form the basis for a mythic campaign I hope to run. > > Some food for thought > Pax, > Josh > Nice ideas. I was thrashing this out with one of my prospective players and we came to the theory that "A Being's Freewill is porportional to their Distance from God". In other words Player Celestials have less freewill than Humans, cause they can see the Symphony and are subject to dissonance, but more than the Archangels, who are bound to the major Themes of the Symphony, leaving them little room to manouver. This can explain why we see such discordance between the Archangels. It is not really true to say that Dominic dislikes Eli, it is just that their Themes clash and when played in the same room don't Harmonise. It also makes the Players more important. Even a hidebound old rules follower like Dominic can see that sometimes you have to errr "broadly interpret" the rules to get a good outcome of a situation. He is unable to do this becasue he is so closely tied to his WORD, but his servitors are not, ie they have the freewill, and the freedom of action, to get the job done. Other Archangels are in a similar position, but I chose the most obvious example. Thanking you for your indulgence. Yours Peter Email to peterf@geko.net.au "Whoso loveth God truely must not expect to be loved by Him in return." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 21:57:07 -0500 From: John Maurer Subject: Re: IN> Religion At 03:38 PM 3/11/97 EST, Moriah wrote: > And even if a celestial checked Jesus out, just like they can't tell if >another celestial is occupying a vessel, how could they tell if that was God >in that human vessel? (And in Christian theology, that was more than a >vessel, that was a truly human being as much as it was truly divine.) Actually the Church faught bitterly over Jesus' status. Some believers felt that Jesus was fully divine and some felt that he was fully human. This debate was decided by a VOTE at the council of Nicea where the profession of the Christian faith was adopted. A few of the votes were very close and the Christian Faith may have taken a very different turn had a few of them swung the other way. The Church was quite oppressive to these heresies and has eventually all but stamped them out. The last real Heretical movement was the Cathari heresy in... I think the late 1200s. An interesting card game exists called "Credo". In the game you play the church fathers and vie to have your version of the creed adopted. The creed is broken into 10 lines and each one is voted on. All of the possibilities contained in the game were actually proffered by at least a few church fathers. Yours Catholically. John "He was possessed of every art and grace except for that of making his own living" -Cold Comfort Farm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 21:58:24 -0500 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Songs and Vessels On Mar 11, 5:25pm, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Subject: IN> Songs and Vessels > Okay, you've gone and sung yourself some Claws so you can walk the > bad part of town and have a fair chance of scaring the [celestial > realm] out of any muggers (just imagine their reaction when their > target flips a finger at them -- and then the 6 inch claw appears > on the end...). Then, for whatever reason, you decide that you > need to change form -- say, to your alley-cat so you can climb up a > tree and jump on someone who's been following you. > > Do you keep the ability to use the Claws, or do those go with the > vessel when you swap it back into "mallet space?"* Elizabeth... you just stay up _all_ night thinking of these things don't you? ;) ;) ;) My judgement woud be, yes, you can still use the claws since the Song is a changing of reality at a basic level and the Song says you can pop them in and out at will during the time. Isn't it kinda unwieldy for a 18" long cat to have 6" long claws, though? ;) The scary part is that Numious Corpus also can influence your Celestial Form... and do Celestial damage. Ouch. Ouch twice. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 22:00:26 -0500 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine FAQ (3/10/97) > Moriah changed that, IIRC. I have looked and cannot find the > email where he did that, to my annoyance... Ah, here it is. I'll > include at the end. > > > Here's a breakdown of some common situations and the > > Disturbance produced for each: > >Going from Heaven to Earth into a Vessel: Forces > >Going from Corporeal Vessel to Heaven successfully: Forces+2+Forces > >Assuming Celestial Form on Earth: Forces+2 > >Switching Corporeal Vessels: 1 > >Enter Corporeal Vessel while Celestial on Earth: 0 > > Except for the switching, is-cool. The way the questions were in > the FAQ was implying that "Switching Corporeal Vessels" was > going to be Forces+2 or even Forces+2+Forces, rather than > Moriah's current Forces+1. At least, that was how I was reading > them together. > > ------ > Date: 20 Feb 97 22:24:08 EST > From: Moriah - Steve Jackson Games <73407.515@CompuServe.COM> > To: > Subject: IN> [Canon] Some Q's... > Sender: owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Precedence: bulk > Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > > [...] > > And, since it's been discussed on the list, here. Let me add that > >switching vessels should be as loud as going celestial. Ow my head. Ow again. Well, it's official then. The changes will show up on the NEXT incarnation of the FAQ! ;0 - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 21:02:55 -0700 From: Bremstrahlung X Subject: IN> Animal Vessels Salutations I've just started my In Nomine game last night (Set in Bath, England) and when doing characters a random thought darted across my Cerebellum: Animals can't have roles, if I remember correctly. Which makes sense for most animals, but how about, say, a Cherubim devoted to protecting someone, whose role was the person's Guard Dog: The obvious use would be to muffles disturbances in the symphony stopping people breaking into his charge's house. And other pets could have roles too, though they would be less useful. Obviously Status would be a moot point: I would put it at One for all animal guards. Or is there an obvious reason why these these examples wouldn't count as roles, and I'm just being stupid. Actually that'll be it I am the Resurection Bremstrahlung X Jones, Demon of Incompetence and Angel of Britpop ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 17:08:02 GMT+10 From: "Leathal Weapon" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: Re: IN> Songs and Vessels In reply to: > (Does the Wings manifestation change with celestial status (angel/demon), > or is it "set" for the aspect that it was learned at?) IMO, as with most of these celestial songs, they are largely extensions of how the celestail sees themselves. Therefore it would be down to personal psyche. So Angels could have lovely white feathery wings and Demons black bat wings, but it's not that limited. A Demon who sees himself as ultra cool could have hip feather jet-black wings, or something. Basically I'd leave it up to the player as long as it fit into their character mentality. Just a thought... Leathal Weapon. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 17:11:03 GMT+10 From: "Leathal Weapon" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: Re: IN> Numinous Corpus [Was Songs and Vessels] In reply to: > >Retracting Claws seems to be the "default" for that ability, so that's > >cool. (True enough that long Claws on an animal vessel might make > >movements problematic -- and where would a bird vessel put it?) > > Bird Claws, first guess on the Feet. But they could be a WIng buffet. There are a few birds that have Spurs (kind of claws) of their wings. These make for good swoop attacks, but a successful attack can greatly upset flight. Just a thought... Leathal Weapon. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 97 22:53:38 -0600 (CST) From: kestre1@airmail.net (Andrew Getting) Subject: Re: IN> Who's Who In Hel(l,p): Request for advice At 03:21 PM 3/11/97 -0500, in_nomine-l@lists.io.com wrote: >I'm looking for some ideas about one of my favorite literary imps: >Mephistopheles, notorious tempter of Faust in Marlowe's and Goethe's works. I >figure that, by this time, he's probably made it up to full demon rank, but >I'm not sure who his superior would be or what Band he might end up in. Any >suggestions? > >Coming soon: Phineas, Archangel of Tribes. And that certain Lilim I mentioned >before. I'm pretty sure that, as printed, he's a Djinn. He wasn't even a familiar before (familiars can't summon and dismiss the souls of the dead, infiltrate and manipulate Church members, or turn horses into straw). This, combined with the way he manipulated Faust without directly messing him up, suggests a Djinn's touch. Kronos would be the most obvious Superior. Kestrel ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 97 22:53:39 -0600 (CST) From: kestre1@airmail.net (Andrew Getting) Subject: Re: IN> A Few Thoughts.. Immortals + Others At 10:27 AM 3/11/97 -0500, in_nomine-l@lists.io.com wrote: >> I don't know... the Preacher handles Christ's descendants pretty well. > > How did they do that? I only read the first few issues, and don't >know what's happened lately. Nah. It's too amusing... Kestrel ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 97 22:53:47 -0600 (CST) From: kestre1@airmail.net (Andrew Getting) Subject: Re: IN> Celestial Agreement At 11:33 AM 3/11/97 -0500, in_nomine-l@lists.io.com wrote: > > > > > > What happens when an Angel and a Devil agree on a course of action >because they DISAGREE on a moral principal. Lets say there is a law being >debated. The Angel happens to think that the law, if passed, would do a >lot of good. The Demon disagrees. He thinks that the law, if passed, >would do a lot of evil. Both of them may be trying to get the law passed. >Now - what happens when they become aware of each other? Either they call their own views into question or they think the other side's an idiot. Kestrel ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 97 23:46:16 -0600 (CST) From: kestre1@airmail.net (Andrew Getting) Subject: Re: IN> Religion At 09:57 PM 3/11/97 -0500, in_nomine-l@lists.io.com wrote: >At 03:38 PM 3/11/97 EST, Moriah wrote: > >> And even if a celestial checked Jesus out, just like they can't tell if >>another celestial is occupying a vessel, how could they tell if that was God >>in that human vessel? (And in Christian theology, that was more than a >>vessel, that was a truly human being as much as it was truly divine.) > >Actually the Church faught bitterly over Jesus' status. Some believers felt >that Jesus was fully divine and some felt that he was fully human. This >debate was decided by a VOTE at the council of Nicea where the profession of >the Christian faith was adopted. A few of the votes were very close and the >Christian Faith may have taken a very different turn had a few of them swung >the other way. The Church was quite oppressive to these heresies and has >eventually all but stamped them out. The last real Heretical movement was >the Cathari heresy in... I think the late 1200s. There have been heresies before and since: the movement away from Latin in Mass, the Reformation, the Templars, and even the Inquisition had its heretical elements. Kestrel ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 00:58:18 -0500 From: Joshua Mosqueira Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Freewill Fellow Divinities: >Nice ideas. I was thrashing this out with one of my prospective players andwe came to the theory that "A Being's Freewill is porportional to their Distance from God". In other words Player Celestials have less freewill than Humans, cause they can see the Symphony and are subject to dissonance,but more than the Archangels, who are bound to the major Themes of the Symphony, leaving them little room to manouver. I like this explanation, it creates an interesting play between fealty and freewill. After all being word-*bound* carries with it consequences, namely less freewill. > >This can explain why we see such discordance between the Archangels. It is not really true to say that Dominic dislikes Eli, it is just that their Themes clash and when played in the same room don't Harmonise. Yes, true but what if after all these ages the arcangels have taken their roles within the Symphony as grounds for acting the way they do. True Dominic might be the angel of judgement, but mayby being word-bound has forced Dominic to act in a certain pattern, what he might call freewill might have been God's plan all along? So this asks the question: did Uriel hunt down the pagan gods out of his own motivation, or was he doing God's biddng? >It also makes the Players more important. Even a hidebound old rules >follower like Dominic can see that sometimes you have to errr "broadly >interpret" the rules to get a good outcome of a situation. I like this, could lead to an interesting campaing where the character seem to be acting in a heretical manner, especially to angels such Dominic and Luarence, but are actully performing important deeds within the Symphony. Here's another idea, have a group of angels deemed Outcasts by Dominic or Laurence, becuase they are doing something these arcangels disagree with. The characters are now faced with the dilema; continue their tasks (maybe with the help of Yves, or even Gabriel) even when facing both infernal and celestial opposition, or are they feel betrayed and fall compleatly? Josh ______________________________________________ Joshua Mosqueira, effigy@total.net ______________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 02:40:10 -0500 (EST) From: "Michael C. Nutt" Subject: Re: IN> Ponderables My two cents here on some of these... >What I'm working on, so, please be patient. > > 1. Body Hits: Should human BH be figured differently (lower)? I don't have a problem with it the way it is. I *do* allow "one-shot kills" on people who *can't* dodge for some reason, but otherwise, I think it's OK... cinematic, yes, but acceptable. > 2. Fighting skill problem. I think you ought to just scrap the idea of adding the Corporeal Forces to the base number, and call it a typo . Actually, there's even an example in the core book, on p. 39, under "Automatic Success", that uses Fighting as an example, and it leaves out Corporeal Forces, so there's even a precedent. Plus, it'd bring Fighting back into line with every *other* skill... if you don't have the skill itself, then you use the default, and if you don't have a good chance to succeed, well, tough noogies. :) > 3. Possession: What exactly is the BH and Corporeal Characteristics of >the human or animal body possessed by a Kyriotate or Shedim or celestial who >sings a Song of Possession? I like the idea of keeping the vessel's BH, but using the possesor's Corporeal Characteristics. Kyriotates have to be *careful*, but them's the breaks. > 5. The results of celestials breeding corporeally: One thing for sure, >no half-breeds!! Either the child will have a celestial or a human soul. >Nothing else. Ever. Don't hold your breath for this one. This will be >dealt with in depth with the Grigori cycle *next year*. This year is the >celestials and soldiers, be patient for when they bed-wrestle with each other >in next year's supps. I don't like the idea of celestials interbreeding with corporeal life forms. Here's *my* idea on how to handle the problem: Vessels aren't fertile, unless *specifically* designed that way, and this is prohibited by the Powers That Be, due to the whole mess with the Grigori. Angels would want to minimize the disturbance to humanity as a whole, and the Infernal forces would be afraid of the backlash and uprisings against them if such crosses were to actually happen. OK, maybe some celestial who's about to be Outcast or go Renegade might do it *anyway*... but it ought to be *awfully* rare. On a related issue, just how *are* vessels made? Does one's Superior provide one for you, according to whatever you order? Do you create it yourself, with no input whatsoever from your Superior? And what happens when your vessel gets blown to shreds on the corporeal plane... do you just draw another one from Central Supply, of equal level, or do you need to have some CP handy to buy a new one? Michael ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 00:25:39 -0600 (CST) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> New Major Demon and Hi! This is attempt #3 to get it to the list... > > First of all, I'm new to the list, so I'll say a big Hi! to everyone > > out there. > > Hi. > > > Secondly I'm intrigued by these new Archangels, demons and Princes > > that people send to the list. If anyone has any of these saved up on > > their hard drives and have a moment could they please forward copies > > of these to me? > > I've been collecting them for my web page, but thanks to a > server crash, I have missed a few. Once I get all of this worked out, I > will gladly send them to you. > > > Leath. > > Oops da Ogre, Have they updated the digests online yet? > mudgb4@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 08:45:39 -0500 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Animal Vessels On Mar 11, 9:02pm, Bremstrahlung X wrote: > Subject: IN> Animal Vessels > Salutations > > I've just started my In Nomine game last night (Set in Bath, England) and when doing characters a random thought darted across my Cerebellum: > > Animals can't have roles, if I remember correctly. Which makes sense for most animals, but how about, say, a Cherubim devoted to protecting someone, whose role was the person's Guard Dog: The obvious use would be to muffles disturbances in the symphony stopping people breaking into his charge's house. And other pets could have roles too, though they would be less useful. > > Obviously Status would be a moot point: I would put it at One for all animal guards. > > Or is there an obvious reason why these these examples wouldn't count as roles, and I'm just being stupid. Sounds like a reasonable suggestion to me. You would want the role for the same reason you would want a human role (i.e. to muffle your Disturbances). That being the case, it'd take a pretty hard-ass GM to disallow someone buying something LESS useful for the same cost! - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 08:58:30 -0500 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Freewill On Mar 12, 12:58am, Joshua Mosqueira wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Freewill > Fellow Divinities: > >Nice ideas. I was thrashing this out with one of my prospective players > andwe came to the theory that "A Being's Freewill is porportional to their > Distance from God". In other words Player Celestials have less freewill > than Humans, cause they can see the Symphony and are subject to > dissonance,but more than the Archangels, who are bound to the major Themes > of the Symphony, leaving them little room to manouver. > > I like this explanation, it creates an interesting play between > fealty and freewill. After all being word-*bound* carries with it > consequences, namely less freewill. Depends on what you mean by 'free will'. For purposes of this discussion let's ignore the theory that God has minutely planned the entire history of the universe and we are predestined to do whatever He had in mind. The reason I suggest this is that it is almost completely irrelevant to the current discussion and, in a very real sense, doesn't matter. Does an Archangel have less free will than an Angel? Do both have less than a Demon? My answer: no. They have restrictions and limits placed around their actions but they are still free to ignore them. They pay a price, of course, sometimes a very weighty one. But their will is not being influenced directly any more than my will is restricted because I can't walk across a busy highway without inevitable consequences occuring! What many people have been calling 'less free will' could more accurately be termed 'greater consequences of actions'. The Demons didn't like God's plan and so chose not to follow it. Angels can go against their natures and generate Dissonance as a result. If your Superior will kick your Celestial butt for screwing up on a mission that doesn't mean you have less free will, it just means that you have a strong _incentive_ to do what he wants! This especially becomes apparent when an angel gains a Word. They are brought into harmony with a particular part of the Symphony that is theirs to govern, protect and promote. Does this limit their actions? Well, yes, insomuch that if they screw up, the consequences will be dire! - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #68 ****************************** The material here is (C) 1996 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.