From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Mar 18 15:51:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by deliverator.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA00180; Tue, 18 Mar 1997 15:49:22 -0600 (CST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA17204 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 18 Mar 1997 15:51:12 -0600 Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 15:51:12 -0600 Message-Id: <199703182151.PAA17204@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #77 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, March 18 1997 Volume 01 : Number 077 In this digest: Re: IN> Restoring a Remnant? Re: IN> A matter of names... Re: Sophia (Re: IN> [THEO] OT and the Jews) IN> New Gods Re: IN> Religion Re: IN> Religion Re: IN> Totems and Angels Re: IN> New Gods Re: IN> Totems and Angels IN> Totems and Angels Re: IN> New Gods IN> Erikel, The Angel of Music Re: IN> Erikel, The Angel of Music Re: IN> Restoring a Remnant? Re: Sophia (Re: IN> [THEO] OT and the Jews) Re: IN> Tether Seneschals Re: IN> A matter of names... Re: IN> Totems and Angels Re: IN> Erikel, The Angel of Music Re: IN> Erikel, The Angel of Music IN> Female aa/dp Re: IN> Female aa/dp Re: IN> Restoring a Remnant? Re: IN> Female aa/dp Re: IN> Angel of Music Re: IN> Erikel, The Angel of Music IN> Word-bound in literature Re: IN> Totems and Angels Re: IN> Angel of Music ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 09:59:25 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Restoring a Remnant? > This may sound a bit cold, but ... Yes. > It's sort of like a Celestial Triage. Some angels >get better from wounds without care. Some angels need help, >but will be fine afterwards. > And some aren't worth the time. "Frankly, this sounds more like a Demon Prince, to me, ... "Archangels are supposed to be nobler in spirit. I see them as willing to *help* a celestial who has suffered grievously in the name of the Cause." Hear, hear. Frankly, the angels of In Nominie can use all the moral edge they can get, because they don't have enough. I bought and read through IN two weeks ago, and was disappointed in the low moral temperature of the angels. Mostly, they come across as merely self-righteous or merely laid-back (which is pleasanter but not enough). They need to be more exalted. As I said in an earlier post, the angels and demons are in danger of being no more than super-powered secret agents. Of course, how they are ultimately played depends on players. But I'd like to have seen some me stage directions urging high levels of Good on angel players. I am hoping this can come across in the supplements, since I realize that IN proper was very busy detailing rules and simply cataloging choirs, bands, archangels, and princes. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 10:04:19 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> A matter of names... "I'm not sure if many of the Archangels have names that are *really* anachronistic. David is a good Hebrew name (just as Elizabeth is...." I didn't mean "David," but "Laurence" and "Dominic" (Latin) and "Jordi" (French, but ultimately also Latin) and the like. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 10:17:01 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: Sophia (Re: IN> [THEO] OT and the Jews) > Ack! Sophia was not a goddess, but a manifestation of Yahweh's > wisdom, personified as female. "Why *did* she drop out of modern views? I mean, we've got the "Father, Son, and Ghost" trinity -- why is a female Wisdom left out in the cold?" The answer you get depends on your actual religious beliefs. The most conservative answer is that there is no Person in the Godhead corresponding to the figure of Sophia, and that's just the theological facts. Other answers include: Sophia/Wisdom, who was "with God in the beginning" according to her speech in Proverbs, is the same being as God's Word, that is, Christ. So Wisdom was not "left out in the cold," but is now known to us in its male Incarnation, Jesus. Focussing on the feminine aspect, perhaps Wisdom can be identified with the Holy Spirit, since "ruah," the Hebrew for "spirit," is a feminine noun. (It's neuter in Greek and masculine in Latin.) (Just by the way, on those grammatical grounds, all souls are feminine, I think. If I remember correctly, the word for "soul" is feminine in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin.) It is perhaps worth pointing out that, according to all the monotheistic theologies, God (apart from any Incarnations a particular theology may assert) is omnipresent, bodiless, and so has no real, literal sex. Word-wars about calling God "He," "She," or "It" are battles about choosing the best metaphor, or battles about grammatical gender, or blowings off of steam. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 09:20:29 -0600 From: Drew Johnson Subject: IN> New Gods I was just thinking about a few of the finer points of my recent education (having just graduated and all) and I was thinking; where do you suppose new gods come into the world of In Nomine? I'm speaking specifically of those types of deities that people create for themselves. New messiahs, objects of worship (such as America), concepts such as money (or as the Good Father might put it, mammon) and power, things like that. I can see many of them being simply extensions of demonic Words. Some, on the other hand, I could almost see as a new god springing up, sucking essence away from its believers (ever been to a political rally?) Where do the gods come from, anyway? I like both Pratchett and Gaiman's take on it (in _Small Gods_ and _Brief Lives_, respectively, but I'm not sure that precisely accurate in the IN world of monotheistic dominance. On a lighter note, would any of you Over the Edge players out there like to take a stab at the status of Aaron, the owner of the Terminal's Memphis or Karla Sommers in an IN game? And what the hell would the celestial landscape look like on Al Amarja, anyway? - -----[O O O]---------- Drew Johnson ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 10:21:42 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Religion "Well, actually the Jews originally refered to god as "Elohim" which is often translated as "gods"" Yes, but Hebrew includes a grammatical form called the "plural of excellence." The biggest and best instance of a class may be given a plural form. Thus the Hebrew "behemoth" (probably a word for "hippopotamus") is in the feminine plural form and could be translated "beasts" ... except that's clearly not what was meant. Insteand, what was meant was "honkin' BIG beast." I believe multiple gods/angels were also (and more often?) referred to as "elim." Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 10:29:37 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Religion "Few Christians these days are decended from Jews. In order to be decended from Jews, you must have a Jewish mother." There's decent and decent. In contemporary Judaism, yes, you need to have a Jewish mother to be a Jew (barring conversion). All Christians are adoptive or honorary Jews, according to Paul's letter to the Romans. Go back 2000 years and every living human has abot two to the 80th ancestors. (That's more than 10 to the 76th.) Since there weren't that many people on Earth, each living human is connected to the average human of the first century by more than 10 to the 60th lines of decent. That there are a few Jews in there is very likely, certainly for anyone who traces back to Eurasia and Africa. Ditto a few Chinese, Celts, Egyptians, Pygmies, etc., unless there is very good reason to suppose the bloodlines were isolated -- which the Jews certainly were not. None of which will make the slightest dent in the mind of a racist. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 09:26:52 -0600 (CST) From: Russ Collins Subject: Re: IN> Totems and Angels I REALLY liked this, but it got me to wondering: are there any "Fallen Totems"? Unfortunately, my knowledge of such things is pretty sketchy, so I can only raise the question, not answer it... Russ Collins rgc@io.com "Once one dismisses the rest of all possible worlds, One finds that this is the best of all possible worlds." -- Candide (Berstein, Sondheim) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 10:44:54 -0500 (EST) From: IQJason@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> New Gods Drew Johnson writes: "I was just thinking about a few of the finer points of my recent education (having just graduated and all) and I was thinking; where do you suppose new gods come into the world of In Nomine? I'm speaking specifically of those types of deities that people create for themselves. New messiahs, objects of worship (such as America), concepts such as money (or as the Good Father might put it, mammon) and power, things like that." In an IN worldview, those things aren't so much "worshipped"...they just get their Word strengthened. From various of the In Nomine Word-holders, it seems like "worship" involves granting of Essence from the faithful to a non-Mundane. That's why Uriel went after the pagans; they were giving their Essence to Ethereal Spirits "masquerading" as gods. " Some, on the other hand, I could almost see as a new god springing up, sucking essence away from its believers (ever been to a political rally?)" Several. :) And I'd see those kinds of demagogues (on both sides) as Soldiers. I can certainly imagine the Rev. Dr. King as a Soldier of Marc. (Resistance through economic pressure -- boycotts -- rather than violence.) I'd say that Soldiers can certainly receive Essence, as they've gained some control over it. yours, - -j Where do the gods come from, anyway? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 10:50:42 -0500 (EST) From: IQJason@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Totems and Angels Russ Collins: "I REALLY liked this, but it got me to wondering: are there any 'Fallen Totems'? Unfortunately, my knowledge of such things is pretty sketchy, so I can only raise the question, not answer it..." Well...I'd vote for the Golden Calf, myself. Servitor of Mammon. And it's certainly possible that all of the nasties that Uncle Howard wrote about are actually Infernal Totems. yours, - -j ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 09:20:26 +0000 From: "Bodhi" Subject: IN> Totems and Angels > I REALLY liked this, but it got me to wondering: are there any "Fallen > Totems"? Unfortunately, my knowledge of such things is pretty sketchy, so > I can only raise the question, not answer it... > That's a really good question. There are two ways of approaching it, depending upon which sorts of shamanistic traditions you follow. 1. Totems are neither good nor evil. They are. They are powerful, they teach us lessons, they represent certain ways and means. Thus, 'trickster' totems like Coyote, Raven (and Wolverine...) are merely doing their jobs for our own good. They aren't particularly evil, although they are particularly nasty and sometimes a little cruel!! However, they are NOT Evil. They are just doing their job, just being themselves. They were made by the Creator to do just that. We need them, if for nothing else, than to keep us from becoming complacent. - -or- 2. There are good totems and bad totems. Coyote is waiting to catch you if you ever slip up, and he'll rush in, take advantage, and devour you. Coyote, Raven, (and Wolverine...) are more than just opportunistic beings waiting to take advantage of you for your own good... they are out there, TRYING to get you to fall. When looked at this way, they are definitely Totems for the other side You could always just say that they started out doing the Creator's Will, but when the Diabolicals all left, these totems went with them. Thus, they used to be following the explanation number one, but then they switched sides and went all out for power!! ____________ Myself, due to my background and the sorts of environment in which I was raised, I can't see Coyote as anything other than a friend who knows what is best for me, and is willing to teach me that lesson, no matter how harsh the lesson is on me! However, if you prefer a more 'balanced' campaign, you can always divide the totems appropriately. It is always difficult when dealing with totems to assign a simple label like "good" and "evil". Different stories, different regional interpretations, different tribal traditions, all have different ways of representing these guys. Depending on who you talk to, Coyote is Good or Bad. Same with Raven. Different stories paint Eagle as just a power-hungry bastard, with others as being just so Noble that he is dangerous (he's not willing to compromise). Take the type which fits your style the best. Remember, you won't please everybody, and you won't make it mesh with every story, because the stories themselves don't all mesh! Walk in Beauty, Rob Wolff / Bodhi rob@v-wave.com Nicholas Copernicus, Master Astronomer Stood up and Shouted, addressing the throng, "Abandon poor Ptolomy, Stand up and follow me, Heliocentrically, Ptolomy's Wrong!!" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 11:41:38 -0500 From: "Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki" Subject: Re: IN> New Gods > On a lighter note, would any of you Over the Edge players >out there like to take a stab at the status of Aaron, the owner of >the Terminal's Memphis or Karla Sommers in an IN game? And what >the hell would the celestial landscape look like on Al Amarja, >anyway? Well, going with the general idea that Al Amarja is a big High Strangeness Magnet, I'd say that Al Amarja is a convoluted landscape with tiny Tethers everywhere, as the angels and demons form yet another power group interested in controlling the island. I see servitors of Technology, on both sides of the War, being very important, tho the demons are probably winning... Certainly the Hermetics and Sir Arthur Compton would have traffick with celestials. And considering the prevelance of psychic powers on Al Amarja (despite Her Exaltedness's ban), perhaps Al Amarja is a gathering place for the human children of the Grigori... Aaron and Karla could be non-Soldier humans who have acquired more Forces, and the ability to such Essence from their worshipers. (Karla unconciously, Aaron consciously.) I can easily see Aaron having a demonic patron, as well as the existance of a clandestine angelic patron for Karla (perhaps the proposed Archangel of Music). Perhaps Yves is quietly trying to "pull an Islam" with Karla and/or Aaron (especially Karla), hoping to cause less of a fuss this time... -Loki - -- Kirt "Loki" Dankmyer PGP key avail. My opinions are my own. love * Eris * RPGs * Anime * Magick * Carroll * techno * hats * cats * Dada I waked, she fled, and day brought back my night. --Milton ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 12:31:46 -0500 From: Hatcher Rhanyr Subject: IN> Erikel, The Angel of Music Since I originally posted the idea...I thought I'd come up with sometjhing. Tell me what you think. ************************************************************************ ERIKEL Angel of Music Coporeal Forces: 4 Str 6 Agi 10 Ethereal Forces: 4 Int 8 Pre 8 Celestial Forces: 6 Wil 12 Per 12 Songs: Attraction (Ethereal/5), Attraction (Celestial/3), Charm (Celestial/4), Harmony (Ethereal/5), Healing (Corporeal-Ethereal/3), Healing (Celestial/4) Sleep (Ethereal/4) Skills: Artistry/6, Emote/6, Knowledge (All Musical Instruments)/6, Singing/6 Artifact: A silver harp that causes all that hear it too be enthralled by it's music (Treat as Ethereal Song of Charm/6 affecting Precicision) Attunements: Mercurian of Eli, Abracadabra, Transubstantiation. Special Rites: Erikel gains an additional point of essence if she sleeps in a choir or orchestral perapit. Erikel is an enchanting angel, befriending almost everyone she meets. Most of the time she takes the form of a beautiful young woman with long blonde hair but she has been known to take other forms as well. The Angel of Music holds her word very dear to her. She became the Angel of Music many ages ago when she was granted the oportunity by Yves to give the knowledge of music to humankind. Since then though she has had some difficulty with the way mankind had twisted and perverted her beautiful word. Sometimes sullen because of this, most of today's music she simply refers to as "human noise". As far as today's standards go though, she really only abhors one genre of music,"Gangster Rap". Erikel has been fighting a battle with the Demon of Music for ages. While she tries to promote the finer things of mortal life (love, fulfillment, joy, etc) the Demon of Music is mostly resposible for the corruption of music. He fills human composers heads full of ideas about killing, drug use, sex, and all the horrors that plague mankind. She shows no mercy when dealing with the minions of the Demon of Music. Lately some of the Celestial Hierarchy have been concerned with Erikel's almost violent reaction to the Demon of Music's minions. In Erikel's own words she remarked "The plague that sweeps across music in the form of men like Curt Kobain and Tupac Shakir needs to be eliminated from the corporeal world." ************************************************************************ "Angel of Music, guide and guardian, share with me your glory" -Phantom of the Opera- ************************************************************************ * Hatcher Rhanyr * _< >_ * * * / \0/ \ * * "The Angel of Bright Shiney Teeth" * /_/| |\_\ * * * / \ * ************************************************************************ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 13:46:33 -0500 (EST) From: IQJason@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Erikel, The Angel of Music Hatcher Rhanyr gives us the Angel of Music: "Since then though she has had some difficulty with the way mankind had twisted and perverted her beautiful word. Sometimes sullen because of this, most of today's music she simply refers to as 'human noise'. As far as today's standards go though, she really only abhors one genre of music, 'Gangster Rap'." As opposed to, say, white-power hardcore punk? And 'gangsta rap' isn't really a genre of music; it's a genre of LYRICS. The music beneath the words is the same primal-beat or sampled electronica that underlies all rap music. (I'm going to go as far as placing hip-hop as a whole in the shared province of Music and Poetry.) Hmm. I wonder how she feels about "old style" industrial, like Cabaret Voltaire or Throbbing Gristle, which were attempts to define actual "noise" (gears grinding, chainsaws against metal) as music? "In Erikel's own words she remarked 'The plague that sweeps across music in the form of men like Kurt Cobain and Tupac Shakur needs to be eliminated from the corporeal world.'" Maybe I need a little more insight...how was the music of either of these men a 'plague' across music? And, although we've seen Angels encourage murder, do you really think one would promote suicide? yours, - -j ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 14:00:29 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Restoring a Remnant? At 1:39 AM -0500 3/18/97, Michael C. Nutt wrote: >>> If there is, theoretically, any way at all of restoring a >>> remnant, wouldn't angels and Archangels sometimes attempt >>> it? Simply out of charity and mercy? [...] >> It's sort of like a Celestial Triage. Some angels >>get better from wounds without care. Some angels need help, >>but will be fine afterwards. >> And some aren't worth the time. > >Frankly, this sounds more like a Demon Prince, to me, as cited on p. 155 : > >"Theoretically, a Prince will help out his Servitors when he can. In fact, >your Prince will write you off if the cost of replacing you -- or your >mission -- is less than the risk of helping you." > >Archangels are supposed to be nobler in spirit. I see them as willing to >*help* a celestial who has suffered grievously in the name of the Cause. I >personally like the idea that a Remnant just wouldn't be the *same* person, >once he had Celestial forces restored to him, as what made him the unique >person he once was is gone, forever. [...] >And losing sight of who you are, and of the Cause that you're fighting for, >seems to me to be the surest way to Fall. It might be *very* hard to do, and leave the Archangel vunerable -- not only do they have to restore Forces, but they have to do it *ON EARTH*! They can't just grab the person and yank them up the nearest Tether to work on them in Heaven until they've restored at least one Celestial Force. And it's gotta be *noisy* as all getout -- a pyrotechnic show in the Symphony that echoes across a midwest state or two, say, since the Archangel is likely using the full power of the Symphony to reweave the tattered parts of the Remnant's soul. Which doesn't mean that it might not be tried, but it would probably be a *risky* move. If a Demon Prince were using a remnant as bait, he could run in while the Archangel was busy, and start dismembering the Archangel... Charity is all well and good, but if an *Archangel* gets turned into a Remnant -- that's no good to anybody. If you could find some way for the remnant to get into the Marches, though, that might be marginally safer... (Though even there you've got demons and Beleth and pagan gods; but at least Blandine might be persuaded to mount some kind of guard.) Now, how do you get what's left of this tattered collection of Etherial and Corporeal *totally* into the Marches? Well, that sounds like a roleplaying hook... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 13:45:42 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: Sophia (Re: IN> [THEO] OT and the Jews) At 10:17 AM -0500 3/18/97, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >> Ack! Sophia was not a goddess, but a manifestation of Yahweh's >> wisdom, personified as female. > > "Why *did* she drop out of modern views? I mean, we've got the > "Father, Son, and Ghost" trinity -- why is a female Wisdom left > out in the cold?" [...] [much good stuff clipped] >It is perhaps worth pointing out that, according to all the >monotheistic theologies, God (apart from any Incarnations a >particular theology may assert) is omnipresent, bodiless, and >so has no real, literal sex. Word-wars about calling God "He," >"She," or "It" are battles about choosing the best metaphor, or >battles about grammatical gender, or blowings off of steam. I wouldn't be so sure about that -- when all the pronouns one sees are male, one starts wondering where the female role models are. (Or this female one does, at least.) I have more "in common" with the In Nomine view of religion than I do with, say, my grandfather's fundie view. And part of that is due to the "Great White Father" image that is popular (especially with all the people down in Tx who tried to convert me...). ObNomine: So have more fem-manifesting Archangels and Demon Princesses! I *like* seeing a "gal" make good! - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 13:38:15 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Tether Seneschals At 9:03 PM +1000 3/18/97, Peter Frederick wrote: [...] >But how partisan are Tether Seneschals. If the Tether Seneschals >are servitors of Laurence and Dominic, both of who are hostile to Eli, how >cold a place is it going to be for Servitors of Eli. Obviously not as bad >as for Diabolical agents whose local tethers are run by servitors of Demon >Princes who are hostile to their Master, but how little comfort are they >going to get from these obvious sources of succor. > >Or are the Seneschals operating under a more open policy to work for their >side rather than a particular faction. I guess another slant is to make it >dependant on the personality of the particular Seneschal. Probably a combination. I'd use the "If your Superior is hostile to [the Seneschal's] master, your request may be denied, though a caretaker will rarely slam the door in the face of a desperate fugitive" comment from p. 59. I'd read that to mean that, for instance, a Servitor of Creation (not assigned to anyone else) would get let into a Tether of Dominic if necessary (i.e., there were demons coming after him *right then), but wouldn't be allowed to use it to try to call Eli for help. The Seneschal might ask a lot of questions about the situation, and if it were big enough, might call *his* boss and explain it. Or he might just say the angel of Creation could hang around till the demons left, and then he'd be well advised to push-off. There would certainly be awkward questions -- "What *are* you doing here? How did you get the demons riled up? Is this some mission from your master, or your own mess?" Or, "Is that Dissonance I smell on your breath? What *have* you been doing?" >The other thing that I am hazy about is the power level of the Seneschals. >Are they much bigger than PC starting level? In the description in the book, p. 59, it says the Seneschals are "always over a dozen Forces." >Are their >powers/abilities/Forces tied to their Tether? Probably somewhat -- they can sense if their Tether is under attack, no matter where they are, for instance. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 13:41:52 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> A matter of names... At 10:04 AM -0500 3/18/97, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >"I'm not sure if many of the Archangels have names that are > *really* anachronistic. David is a good Hebrew name (just as > Elizabeth is...." > >I didn't mean "David," but "Laurence" and "Dominic" (Latin) and >"Jordi" (French, but ultimately also Latin) and the like. What's wrong with Latin? Lots of church stuff is written in Latin... I admit, the Hebrew is often more *fun*... (Go to http://www.altavista.com and do a search on "HITCHCOCK'S BIBLE NAMES DICTIONARY" for a *WONDERFUL* source of names!) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 13:53:32 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Totems and Angels At 9:20 AM +0000 3/18/97, Bodhi wrote: >> I REALLY liked this, but it got me to wondering: are there any "Fallen >> Totems"? Unfortunately, my knowledge of such things is pretty sketchy, so >> I can only raise the question, not answer it... >> >That's a really good question. There are two ways of approaching it, >depending upon which sorts of shamanistic traditions you follow. > >1. [...] They are just doing their job, >just being themselves. They were made by the Creator to do just >that. We need them, if for nothing else, than to keep us from >becoming complacent. > >-or- > >2. There are good totems and bad totems. [...] more than just >opportunistic beings waiting to take advantage of you for your own >good... they are out there, TRYING to get you to fall. [...] [...] > It is always difficult when dealing with totems to assign a simple >label like "good" and "evil". Different stories, different regional >interpretations, different tribal traditions, all have different ways >of representing these guys. Depending on who you talk to, Coyote is >Good or Bad. Same with Raven. Different stories paint Eagle as just >a power-hungry bastard, with others as being just so Noble that he is >dangerous (he's not willing to compromise). Or that there is a Dark version of some -- so you have a Demonic Totem and an Angelic one, and whichever one's been most effective influences how they're seen... The Seraph Eagle is different from the Balseraph Eagle... This could explain different intrepretations, perhaps -- that when a shaman called, the one that matched the intentions showed up. Or one just happened to be passing by and started doing what they considered forwarded their power -- teaching lessons for someone's own good, or just taking advantage, fer intance. If we can have the Archangel of Fire and the Demon Prince of Fire, I see no reason why there shouldn't be at least a few Totems which are repeated on both sides (possibly specifically to sow confusion and disturst -- perhaps the dark Totems wind up reporting to Malphas?). - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 13:40:39 -0600 (CST) From: Brian Emord Subject: Re: IN> Erikel, The Angel of Music But I thought that you wanted an Arch-Angel/Demon-Prince pair??? I think that this angel would be good as a servitor to the Arch-angel of music moreso than being one himself and serving as the Angel of orchestra or classical music... no? ahh well, tis my opinion and interpretation, you are free to do with him as you please... Thank you for the contribution though Brian Emord Balseraph of Asmodeus Whose word is Daniel Webster - --* BEGIN GEEKCODE BLOCK *-- GCS/E d(+)>++ s+:+ a? C+++(++++)$ UBLAHS++$ P+++$ L++ E W++ N o K++ w O++ M-->--- V-- PS(++) PE(+)(-) Y+ PGP- t+@ 5+@ X R+(+++)* tv b++>+++ DI+++$ D G++ e(*)>++++ h+(*) r++>+++ y+ - --* END GEEKCODE BLOCK *-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 15:14:01 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Erikel, The Angel of Music At 1:40 PM -0600 3/18/97, Brian Emord wrote: > >But I thought that you wanted an Arch-Angel/Demon-Prince pair??? I don't see why that would be needed -- Music comes under Creation (and maybe Numbers), rather easily. We don't need *all* new characters to be Archangels! Encountering a "normal" Word-bound celestial can be exciting enough, methinks. There could also be lesser angels of different *kinds* of Music, who would report to Music... Maybe she's in the running for Archangel status, even. Or maybe she's just a general and has a lot of gophers for her. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 14:13:38 -0600 (CST) From: Brian Emord Subject: IN> Female aa/dp > ObNomine: So have more fem-manifesting Archangels and Demon > Princesses! I *like* seeing a "gal" make good! > Give me some hints at what you want to see (i seem more inclined to the lower realms though) i would be more than happy to try my hand at the making of a Demon-princess.... by your leave? Brian Emord Balseraph of Asmodeus Whose word is Daniel Webster - --* BEGIN GEEKCODE BLOCK *-- GCS/E d(+)>++ s+:+ a? C+++(++++)$ UBLAHS++$ P+++$ L++ E W++ N o K++ w O++ M-->--- V-- PS(++) PE(+)(-) Y+ PGP- t+@ 5+@ X R+(+++)* tv b++>+++ DI+++$ D G++ e(*)>++++ h+(*) r++>+++ y+ - --* END GEEKCODE BLOCK *-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 15:28:11 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Female aa/dp At 2:13 PM -0600 3/18/97, Brian Emord wrote: > >> ObNomine: So have more fem-manifesting Archangels and Demon >> Princesses! I *like* seeing a "gal" make good! >> >Give me some hints at what you want to see (i seem more inclined to the >lower realms though) i would be more than happy to try my hand at the >making of a Demon-princess.... > >by your leave? Mostly, it's just *having* a fem-type. That "she" pronoun can be fun, no matter where it's applied. (I know that celestials can genderswap, but it's just not the same.) Stylish is a plus. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 15:46:09 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Restoring a Remnant? "Which doesn't mean that it might not be tried, but it would probably be a *risky* move." Yep, very plausible. Saving souls is notoriously risky. Why, you could get *crucified* trying a stunt like that... Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 15:53:35 -0500 (EST) From: IQJason@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Female aa/dp Elizabeth McCoy: " Mostly, it's just *having* a fem-type. That "she" pronoun can be fun, no matter where it's applied. (I know that celestials can genderswap, but it's just not the same.) Stylish is a plus." Ooh. That gives an idea... KARAN Balseraph of Nybbas, Demon of Fashion "This year, the magic word is...VELOUR!" Karan, a former servitor of Marc, is responsible for the Media's role in telling us What To Wear. Under her watch, clothing's purpose is diverted from protection to vanity: having the money, the "savoir-faire" and the unnaturally thin bodies required to wear the improbable outfits she develops. From pants six sizes too large on men to swimsuits ridiculously cut for women, she sets the trends that keep the boutiques hopping. [InstaCharacter, of course. I may detail her more, later.] yours, - -j ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 07:24:16 +1000 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: Re: IN> Angel of Music Leathal Weapon wrote: > > A comment on: > > > [Patrick O'Duffy:] > > > Anyway, I'd have the Angel of Music be a Mercurian. I think they'd > > >dig the job the most. No idea who their superior would be. > > > I would allow there to be an Archangel of Music, who is obviously not > one of the more powerful at the moment. Generally I like these things > to be balanced, so there would need to be a Demon Prince of Music as > well. The Archangel could have 'good' music (not just classical) > where Heavenly ideals were expressed, and the Demon Prince would have > the 'bad' music (not just Heavy Metal) where concepts of evil, such > as suicide, murder etc were advanced. I dislike that idea becuase it's too subjective. Who's to say where you draw the line on 'nice' music and 'bad' music, when the effects are mainly in the listener. Anyway, I like to think of myself as a nice guy, but most of my tastes in music would lie with the Devil... - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia No prime donna, the perfume is on an old shirt That is stained with blood and whiskey And goodnight to the street sweepers The night watchman, flame keepers And goodnight Matilda too. TOM WAITS, "Tom Traubert's Blues" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 07:30:11 +1000 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: Re: IN> Erikel, The Angel of Music Hatcher Rhanyr wrote: > > Since I originally posted the idea...I thought I'd come up with > sometjhing. Tell me what you think. > > ************************************************************************ > ERIKEL > Angel of Music > > Erikel is an enchanting angel, befriending almost everyone she > meets. > Most of the time she takes the form of a beautiful young woman with long > blonde hair but she has been known to take other forms as well. The > Angel of Music holds her word very dear to her. She became the Angel of > Music many ages ago when she was granted the oportunity by Yves to give > the knowledge of music to humankind. Since then though she has had some > difficulty with the way mankind had twisted and perverted her beautiful > word. Sometimes sullen because of this, most of today's music she simply > refers to as "human noise". As far as today's standards go though, she > really only abhors one genre of music,"Gangster Rap". > Erikel has been fighting a battle with the Demon of Music for > ages. > While she tries to promote the finer things of mortal life (love, > fulfillment, joy, etc) the Demon of Music is mostly resposible for the > corruption of music. He fills human composers heads full of ideas about > killing, drug use, sex, and all the horrors that plague mankind. She > shows no mercy when dealing with the minions of the Demon of Music. > Lately some of the Celestial Hierarchy have been concerned with > Erikel's almost violent reaction to the Demon of Music's minions. In > Erikel's own words she remarked "The plague that sweeps across music in > the form of men like Curt Kobain and Tupac Shakir needs to be eliminated > from the corporeal world." > Well she can piss off then, quite frankly. She sounds like she wouldn't approve of my Nine Inch Nails and Marilyn Manson CDs, and approves of all that 'censorship of lyrics for commercial release' bullshit. Not my idea of fun, and not the kind of person(?) I'd like in charge of humanity's most important artform. I mean, she sounds like Tipper Gore. My girlfriend Ruth, _she'd_ make a great Angel of Music. Hebrew name and everything. - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia No prime donna, the perfume is on an old shirt That is stained with blood and whiskey And goodnight to the street sweepers The night watchman, flame keepers And goodnight Matilda too. TOM WAITS, "Tom Traubert's Blues" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 16:36:31 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> Word-bound in literature The Fashion Demon reminds me of the "Fashion Thing" who is part of the court of Morpheus, aka Dream of the Endless. Free-associating, you can see good examples of Word-bound demons (one of them female) in "Good Omens" by Gaiman and Pratchett. Well, maybe they aren't demons in that book, but the adaptation would be trivial. They are the four horsemen of the Apocalypse, War, Famine, Plague, and Death. War and Famine are particularly well done, I think. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 10:13:37 GMT+10 From: "Leathal Weapon" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: Re: IN> Totems and Angels > > I REALLY liked this, but it got me to wondering: are there any "Fallen > > Totems"? Unfortunately, my knowledge of such things is pretty sketchy, so > > I can only raise the question, not answer it... > > IMO, totems would probably more likely come under the category of fallen 'gods' who are now confined to the Marches, rather than Angels providing people with power. This is why fewer people follow them today, and why they don't often respond (in the IN universe, anyway). When Jordi came to power, he probably demanded domain over all animal spirits and used his power to banish the totems (remember, Angels are good, but still very political). If they get enough followers they can attempt to break out of ther dreamscape, but the problem is gathering enough followers when you don't have the power. Anyway, that's just my thoughts. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 10:17:33 GMT+10 From: "Leathal Weapon" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: Re: IN> Angel of Music In reply to: > DOH!?!?!? > And here I just finished my own write up for a Demon-prince of music and > was going to ask the list for name suggestions...:( > ahh well... win some, lose most, c'est la vie.... > After the suggestions I read yesterday, I've already put together my description of the Archangel of Music, and I've got the first part (the description and Dissonance) of the Demon Prince of Music (their names are Melody and Thrash, if any one's intersted). I've also got some cool ideas happening for some of their followers. I'll try and get the Archangel up today or tomorrow, and the Prince will appear when he's finished. Just 'cause it ain't official don't mean it can't work :) Just a thought... Leathal Weapon. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #77 ****************************** The material here is (C) 1996 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.