From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sat Apr 26 06:22:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA05548 for ; Sat, 26 Apr 1997 06:22:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA27559 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sat, 26 Apr 1997 04:48:44 -0500 Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 04:48:44 -0500 Message-Id: <199704260948.EAA27559@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #140 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Saturday, April 26 1997 Volume 01 : Number 140 In this digest: Re: IN> CANON: Damage Re: IN> Thanatos, Archangel of Death Re: IN> The War Revealed - Warrior Nun Re: IN> CANON: Damage Re: IN> In Nomine mailing list Re: IN> Killing People, and Healing. Re: IN> Faith Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #132 Re: IN> Faith Re: IN> vessel types... Re: IN> vessel types... Re: IN> Faith Re: IN> vessel types... Re: IN> New Archangel Re: IN> New Archangels/Demon Princes IN> Vessel Questions... Re: IN> Faith Re: IN> vessel types... IN> Faiths Re: IN> New Archangels/Demon Princes IN> CANON: The Supp Plan Re: IN> Faith Re: IN> Faith (and Lilim Questions) Re: IN> vessel types... IN> Millenium and In Nomine ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 02:51:02 -0500 From: tom timberlake Subject: Re: IN> CANON: Damage actually, Walt, this is a chance to "power up" the Saints and Soldiers--a mortal ceremony, not a Celestial Song, that exorcises Celestials. originally designed to work against demons, it has been converted to allow Satanist, both Sinners and Soldiers of Hell to toss out possessing angels. tom ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 02:42:49 -0500 From: tom timberlake Subject: Re: IN> Thanatos, Archangel of Death I don't know how, but you beat me to it! very much what I had in mind, though i was going to add Anesthesia as a Servitor Attunement, and also Sleep. he was also going to be known as the Angel of Release, not Death---release from pain, from consciousness through the little death of sleep, and from life when the time arrived. like you did, i was going to make premature death at the hands of a Servitor of Release Discordant and not just Dissonant. good job and faster than mine. tom ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 10:58:41 -0400 From: "C Lee Davis" Subject: Re: IN> The War Revealed - Warrior Nun I would really like to see a conversion of this series by someone who knows it better than I (I only started picking it up since IN came out). My campaign focuses more on soldiers (despite spotty support - come on, Night Music!) than on celestials, and I could use the references. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Apr 97 12:26 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> CANON: Damage >Urk! Yeah, Kyrios and Shedim needed an advantage to balance all those >disadvantages. ... >Seriously: the ruling makes sense, but I hope a Song of Exorcism is >under development! Sounds like we need one, yes. BTW, if Kyrios scare you, look at the Balseraphs of Kronos and think about their choir attunement a little.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 12:55:44 -0400 (EDT) From: gibsonc@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine mailing list what is this about? On Fri, 25 Apr 1997, Remo Strada wrote: > Robert W. Messina > 195 Rowland Ave. > Clifton, NJ 07012 > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 12:38:19 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Killing People, and Healing. > > as I read it, there will be a disturbance in the symphony, because none of > these things would have happened if K'Blui hadn't been there. The mere > presence of a celestial causes slight distortions (nothing so big you'd > notice, but it's there) in the symphony, but when they change > things...[loud minor chord] It's possible to take that to an extreme, though. If I ask a soldier to blow up a building with a hundred people in it, there is no Disturbance. Would this have happened without the presence of the Celestial? No. There's a point between DOING (as when the Celestial in the example hit the soldier's hand to deflect his aim) and just BEING (such as the soldier shooting at the Celestial, missing, and hitting a bystander) where the line has to be drawn with respect to Disturbance. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 13:01:09 -0400 (EDT) From: gibsonc@nku.edu Subject: Re: IN> Faith as far as the faith issue goes, faith is everything thing we think we know. when you get in your car you have faith that it will start. you don't know yet because until it does start you don't have proof. when you sit in a chair, its faith that it will catch your butt that allows you to begin that descent into it. dig? faith is simply beleif in something you haven't yet been able to actually prove. Moses had to have faith that God was the loving being he claimed to be. moses had to have faith that God would do all the thing he said he would. its kinda like trust. jahon, the definer ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 14:07:28 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #132 On Thu, 24 Apr 1997, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > And then there's the one in XXXenophile... You meen "End Game" in Issue 4? I also like the demoness in "DEMONstration of affection" in issue #1, and Doug in Issues #2 & 4 of XXXenophile presents. Dougs Suerior in issue 2 of XXX. Pres. was realy neat. ;-) Shadowcat ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Apr 97 15:10 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Faith [Moriah:] > I'm sorry but I find your definition unconvincing. There is no supporting >argument you give for it except for 'that's how I define it.' You did not >address the problem of people who *do* have 'proof' of God's existence and >the nature of their faith. For those of us in the agnostic camp, though, belief in God's existance is the first stage of what we perceive as "faith". Which doesn't mean that people who are already convinced of the existance of God can't also have faith at additional levels, as you described. I suppose that, as a skeptic, I equate "faith" and "belief", which is probably sloppy of me -- they *are* different words.... In ancient polytheistic civilizations, I suspect many believed, but what you define as "faith" was probably often lacking -- the Greek gods were a pretty unreliable lot, according to mythology. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 12:47:41 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> vessel types... On Apr 25, 12:54am, Donald G Bixler wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> vessel types... > > Well, as far a escape goes, why not take Flea/5 as a vessel? That > > would one tough Flea! And how the heck would you be able to find it? > > Unfortunately, only Jordi's Kyrio's can take insects... > > > :) > > I think arachnids are still available... ;'} For the sake of my own sanity, I'd have to say no to this. Insects, 'bugs', arachnids, etc are all going to be lumped in the same category. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 12:39:33 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> vessel types... On Apr 24, 11:44pm, Perry Lloyd wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> vessel types... > On Wed, 23 Apr 1997 15:19:03 -0600 (CST) > "The Incredibly Unremarkable Cliffy Q. Scrimshaw" > wrote: > > > > I thought anyone could take animal vessels, within reason ("reason" being > > defined by the GM). Having a vessel/1 sparrow or something to escape with > > would be handy, and I thought it was mentioned somewhere. > > > > Am I wrong? > > > > matt s. > > > > Well, as far a escape goes, why not take Flea/5 as a vessel? That > would one tough Flea! And how the heck would you be able to find it? Heh. Insects are limited to Kyriotates of Jordi. Of course, such a Kyriotate could possess a LOT of fleas! ;) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 09:46:05 -0700 (PDT) From: "J. Dring" Subject: Re: IN> Faith On 25 Apr 1997, Moriah - Steve Jackson Games wrote: > >Andrew Ross wrote > >faith is precisely the "belief" that God exists. Yes, religious folks take > >it as a fact that God exists, but they do so because they have faith that > >he exists. Someone who has PROOF that God exists by definition, I think, > >cannot have FAITH because they KNOW. > > I'm sorry but I find your definition unconvincing. There is no supporting > argument you give for it except for 'that's how I define it.' You did not > address the problem of people who *do* have 'proof' of God's existence and > the nature of their faith. > Well, it would seem that there are several types of "faith" that need to be distinguished. I can have faith that a friend will come through for me, and I can have faith that God exists. I would not consider these to be the same thing. Also, as far as definitions go, I would point out that my trusty American Heritage Dictionary says "faith (2) belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence" As others on this list have mentioned, it is a long-held notion that deities require faith on the part of their worshippers to survive. God does not walk down main street handing out miracles because that would destroy people's faith. > Again, Moses and the prophets encountered God, does this mean they no > longer had 'faith' because they now have proof? > Well, maybe. Depending on the view you take they could have merely encountered celestials passing the word along, or even if they did, from a cost benefit analysis losing one person's faith so they could inspire hundreds if not thousands of others seems a pretty good deal. > Your definition of faith would lead to a Christian praying, "God, I am > saved by faith in you, so don't reveal yourself to me and destroy my faith." > :) No, you miss my point. It doesn't matter to the Christian/Moslem/whatever, it matters to the DEITY. Big difference. Andrew Ross ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 14:21:36 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: Re: IN> vessel types... On Fri, 25 Apr 1997, Donald G Bixler wrote: > > Well, as far a escape goes, why not take Flea/5 as a vessel? That > > would one tough Flea! And how the heck would you be able to find it? > > Unfortunately, only Jordi's Kyrio's can take insects... HUH??? I thought you could take what ever type of animal you wanted. I didn't know that certain choirs had certain types of beasties exclusively. Shadowcat ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 18:08:43 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> New Archangel At 10:19 AM +0000 4/24/97, Leathal Weapon wrote: >ANDARIEL- ARCHANGEL OF UNITY. >SERAPHIM- More sensitive to the mind games humans play with >themselves, Andariel's Seraphim can use their Resonance to not only >detect the truth of a statement, but can also feel whether that >statement is absolutely true, or whether it is merely true according >to the subject's perpective. Don't they already do this at higher check digits? Perhaps they just get a boost to the CD? Bet he hates Malphus... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 16:29:33 +0100 () From: "David.Evans" Subject: Re: IN> New Archangels/Demon Princes Tom said that:- > > by gum, I do believe he's right!!! nice call Gregory---how says the > list--guides by choir/band or by AA/DP? put me down in the Superior > side of the question. Hmmm, now I've been thinking over it, my overall feelings and thunks are that one AA and one DP book would be about right. As long as SJ keeps the number of Servitors down to less than 30 each side in total, and simply gives us a maximum of, say, 12 pages for each AA/DP with minimal (or no?) artwork. I think a no artworked 360 page *hardbound* (please? since it'll get a fair bit of use over the years...) book will quite satisfactory to those how wish for such a tome. Yeay or nay? Be seeing you... David. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 11:24:12 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Vessel Questions... Some questions *I* have had (and my personal preferences for answers... ;-) ). Do Vessels suffer Fatigue-effects? Or do they just keep going and going and going? (Probably *feeling* tired once they're out of Essence...) [My preference: Fatigue? What's fatigue? We can trek forever if we have to, just keep breathing.] Do Vessels "feel" extremes of weather that are below the "damage" threshold? (I.e., *maybe* heatstroke and frostbite, certainly things like flamethrowers and the hypothetical ice dagger...) [My preference: you can see a celestial in shorts in anything but below-freezing weather that would take out toes, or in a fur coat in anything up to 100F. They can *feel* temperature, and dress appropriately, but it doesn't discomfit them as badly as a human.] Do Vessels get sick, or contract "social diseases"? (Who, me, play Lilim?) [My pref: No.] Can they be carriers of disease? [My pref: maybe, not sure. A Song of Healing would probably fix it, though, if they could.] And we already know they can't get pregnant unless they want to... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 18:42:15 -0500 From: tom timberlake Subject: Re: IN> Faith let's face it, folks---faith IS a highly subjective matter, with as many different definitions as there are people on this ol' world. Even the atheist has faith--faith that there is/are no God/gods! y'all and I can exchange our opinions from now til Satan starts giving recreational ice skating lessons _down there_ and we won't be any closer to one all-inclusive, all-satisfying conclusion/definition. mankind has been working on this one since we first conceived of there being something beyond myself and we still haven't "got it", witness the differences of opinion exchanged here in our little community. the one thing we have "got", after all these years, is the ability to discuss this without smashing a rock over the head of anyone who disagrees with us, though there are places where even this isn't true. it might be as good as it gets, for now anyway, to exchange our opinions and then agree to disagree. tom timberlake, whose Word is Long-winded. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 19:47:04 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> vessel types... At 2:21 PM -0500 4/25/97, Shadowcat wrote: >On Fri, 25 Apr 1997, Donald G Bixler wrote: > >> > Well, as far a escape goes, why not take Flea/5 as a vessel? That >> > would one tough Flea! And how the heck would you be able to find it? >> >> Unfortunately, only Jordi's Kyrio's can take insects... > > HUH??? I thought you could take what ever type of animal you >wanted. I didn't know that certain choirs had certain types of beasties >exclusively. Only Jordi's Kyrios can *possess* Insects -- by extension, a GM could easily rule that no other angel could create an insect vessel (on the grounds that it's too obnoxious to have a Strength 6 flea running around)... But I don't think there's actually a ruling against *creating* an insect Vessel... Dang. Those Impudites of Technology are looking better and better! ("That flea has *how* much Essence??") - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: 25 Apr 97 21:34:25 EDT From: Moriah - Steve Jackson Games <73407.515@compuserve.com> Subject: IN> Faiths >Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 01:01:23 +0000 >From: "Perry Lloyd" >Subject: Re: IN> The Nature of Faith > >Which religions have the most followers? Islam, Catholicism, Buddism... THE >RACE IS ON!!! Any almanac quickly provides this info. As a percentage of world population: 32.4% Christianity 17.1 Islam 16.9 Non-religious (not the same as atheism) 13.5 Hindu 6.2 Buddhism 4.4 Atheist 3.9 Chinese folk 2.2 New Asian 1.9 Tribal 0.4 Judaism 1.1 Other (largest being 0.3%) Sikh; Shaman; Spiritism; Confucianism Bahaism, Jainism; Shintoism; Parsilism/Zoroastrianism Christians are 1/3 of the world's population and the monotheists are 1/2 of the population. All this without China, which is 1/4 of the population. Imagine if China opens up and Christian evangelization can occur there unhindered.... >Hmmm... this would have nasty implications for the Christiams... >Christmas is former pagan holiday, as is Easter, Halloween? >Is there a historian in the house?! Now you've hit upon one of my pet peeves. These Christian celebrations have certainly incorporated some symbols and rituals which were once part of earlier Pagan celebrations, but these Christian celebrations did *not* evolve out of earlier Pagan celebrations *at all*. Christmas was celebrated at various times of the year before it wound up near the Winter Solstice to *replace*, not evolve from, the Pagan Solstice celebrations. Easter was celebrated at the *anniversary* of the Resurrection. It did not evolve from Pagan 'rebirth of the dead god' celebrations. Halloween is literally the Eve (Evening, Even, E'en) of All Saints (Holy, Hallowed) Day. It was a Christian custom to gather at the tomb of a beloved martyr (the way we visit the graves of deceased family members) on the Eve of the anniversary of their death for prayer. That's how dead spirits got involved. All Saints Day was then moved to a point in the calendar, like Christmas, to *replace* Pagan festivals honoring their dead. So, these Christian feasts picked up Pagan symbols and rituals of the Pagan feasts they were replacing and attached a Christian meaning to the rituals. (You see, even though the local populace converted, even sincerely converted, they still had an emotional attachment to their Pagan rituals, and so the Church 'adapted' those rituals in a Christian manner to coincide with real Christian feasts which were sui generis (they originated on their own).) >The war might be boiled down to literally what "Gods" have the most >followers. That sort of world where belief creates reality is part of the Mage world. It is not part of the official IN NOMINE world, except for that maybe some Ethereal Spirits claim that's the way it is, and it might be, but everything else points to the Christian Mythos as being stable and unaffected by belief. Peace, Moriah ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 23:33:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: Re: IN> New Archangels/Demon Princes On Fri, 25 Apr 1997, David.Evans wrote: > > Hmmm, now I've been thinking over it, my overall feelings and thunks are > that one AA and one DP book would be about right. Sounds good to me. If its later decided that it would be good to have more material, it would be simple enough to do so. > As long as SJ keeps > the number of Servitors down to less than 30 each side in total, and simply > gives us a maximum of, say, 12 pages for each AA/DP with minimal (or no?) > artwork. I think a no artworked 360 page *hardbound* (please? since > it'll get a fair bit of use over the years...) book will quite > satisfactory to those how wish for such a tome. Yeay or nay? No artwork? I'm no expert, but I think that artwork does a lot to sell games. I'm sure that SJG must feel that way too, or they wouldn't have gone to such trouble over the vivid colour pictures throughout In Nomine. > > > Be seeing you... > > David. > !!! Not *that* David, surely... ------------------------------ Date: 25 Apr 97 21:34:18 EDT From: Moriah - Steve Jackson Games <73407.515@compuserve.com> Subject: IN> CANON: The Supp Plan Before the bitter complaints about how the IN NOMINE supps are going to be too much like the 'Compleat X' books or the 'Clan of the Month' books, perhaps you would want to ask the Line Editor (me!) if, in fact, this is what the supps will look like before complaining bitterly about it. What's that? Oh, OK, I'll tell you. Here's what a general outline of a Cycle book looks like (5 of 'em per year): 1. Vignette. A short story giving flavor of the game. It will present the setting in this supplement, the people introduced or expanded upon in this supplement, and advance a story arc for the 5 book cycle. Story arcs shakes things up a bit -- they reveal secret plots happening on a grand scale and describe a change in the balance of power. No, they will not *change everything*. But something will give. You'll cheer when your most disliked Superior is displaced. You'll whine unbelievably when your favorite Superior is displaced. That's the breaks in the Cold Celestial War. Pre-emptive whines won't do anything except maybe get me to convince the authors to do horrible things to your favorite Superior, so... don't start. :> 2. Features on two to four Superiors. About 8 pages of additional background material on Superiors introduced in IN NOMINE. How they interact with various types of creatures; various plots they've got hatching; what their apartment looks like, etc.... 3. Introducing, at most, two new Superiors (sometimes, none). These are shorter treatments on Superiors we couldn't fit into IN NOMINE. They're not the major powerhouses -- either they once were, but their power is on the wane, or their star is just now waxing.... This year, there are only 4 new Superiors and two new choirs (rather minor ones, being that they only work in the Marches) are being introduced. There will not be hundreds of them. 4. A Place. Yeah, it's a bit like the 'City by Night' books, but not as big. The Place being detailed can be a place your adventures take place in or a place your group of PCs visit. The Place in the supp is usually where the action of the story arc is taking place. In the place, you'll get lots of interesting Tethers and NPCs. 5. Introducing XXXXX. This could be the introduction of the complete rules and background for elements of the IN NOMINE world only hinted at in the IN NOMINE Book. All about Soldiers; Undead; Saints; Ethereal Spirits; Sorcerors; Priests; Grigori; Mages; etc.... 6. An adventure. This gives the PCs a chance to get involved in the story arc. --------- And that's it for the Cycle supps. Each year, there will be about two more supps called Core books. They will follow a different type of outline. With the Angel Guide and the Demon Guide due out this year, the bands/choirs will receive more indepth treatment so that there will be no need for any clan books. Look for the final word in Kyrio/Shedim possessions to appear in this year's core books. So, *now* that you *know*, you all can start to bitterly complain properly. :) Peace, Moriah ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 23:31:53 +0000 From: "Captain Nemo" Subject: Re: IN> Faith Moriah wrote: > >J. Dring > > Someone who has PROOF that God exists by definition, I think, > >cannot have FAITH because they KNOW. > > I'm sorry but I find your definition unconvincing. There is no supporting > argument you give for it except for 'that's how I define it.' You did not > address the problem of people who *do* have 'proof' of God's existence and > the nature of their faith. "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." --Heb. 11:1 (KJV) Using the official reference of _IN_, even. ;) Note those last couple of words there. "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." -- Heb. 11:6 (KJV) Note the first couple of phrases, from "But" through "he is." the rest of the verse is kept so I can't be accused of quoting too much out of context. :) > Again, Moses and the prophets encountered God, does this mean they no > longer had 'faith' because they now have proof? Now I argue the other side, since that's where I ultimately believe, anyways. :) This is also where the latter part of Heb. 11:6 comes into play, and the first part of Heb. 11:1. Faith is belief, but is more than just a belief in God's existence. Continuing arguing from Biblical sources, most of Heb. 11 and Romans 3:21-5:11 show that faith is as much believing God as believing in God--believing what He says, His promises and love, as much as in His existence. This could be one problem with angelic revelation: what happens when someone who is otherwise faithful believes an angel, but the angel is unsure of what's God's immediate motives and guidance are? (The ultimate ones aren't in question, just the proximate ones.) That aside, even--when someone finds out how long it's been since a given Seraph has *seen* God? "Yes, I'm doing His Will. No, I haven't talked to Him about this. I don't need to. I know His Will intuitively. Really. No, I haven't spoken with Him directly for millenia. Yes, I'm sure He still exists. Why? Because I have faith, just like you." (See? It *is* possible for angels to have faith, unless you count them as direct extensions of God's will, in which case they can't have any faith at all, but nor could they effectively Fall without his acquiescence. And that plotline has already been explored once or twice....) > Your definition of faith would lead to a Christian praying, "God, I am > saved by faith in you, so don't reveal yourself to me and destroy my faith." > :) Even taking that view, that itself would depend on the revelation. No normal mortal has *seen* God (well, while incarnate, no technicalities here) except Moses, who only saw His back. Most other revelations have been voices, knowledge, or answers to prayer. And honestly, in a day when the Oracle at Delphi foretold the future by listening to Python (probably an ethereal spirit in IN), voices wouldn't be a big deal; Freud, ancient court magicians, and any Servitor of Beleth or Blandine could try to interpret dreams; and answered prayers can come from mundane as well as celestial sources. Proof, incontrovertible proof, is much more difficult to come by. IMHO, incontrovertible proof wouldn't even come with angelic revelation. Some would still insist celestials were aliens from another dimension whose comings and goings in various periods of history had been misinterpreted by ancient peoples as supernatural and religious events. :) And, to be slightly cynical about it, they wouldn't be too far wrong, from a strict theological standpoint. ;) Man, but that post wandered all over the place, and had support for two different views. The first part was mostly for the challenge of it, though, and because Heb. 11:1 was bugging me every time I saw Moriah's statement about what faith was not. :-p The middle part was more my own view, which are probably closer to Moriah's, but put differently. In my game, the Heavenly Host don't reveal themselves because their Superiors say it would be a Bad Idea. Where *they* got this idea (Yves, perhaps, or God Himself), the players don't know yet. And being the good little angels they are, they question (questioning is good, actually), but they haven't broken the rule. For now, they have faith that *someone* higher than they has a good reason. And for angels, since they have a closer knowledge of God's existence, this is perhaps the only type of faith they can truly have. John / Nemo ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 21:43:23 -0500 (CDT) From: Scott Johnson Subject: Re: IN> Faith (and Lilim Questions) On Fri, 25 Apr 1997, tom timberlake wrote: > let's face it, folks---faith IS a highly subjective matter, with as many > different definitions as there are people on this ol' world. Even the > atheist has faith--faith that there is/are no God/gods! Well, depends on the atheist - for a lot, if this is true then nearly everyone has a huge amount of faith - faith that there is no Easter Bunny, for instance. And then there's agnostics, like me. I'm currently of the opinion that there's probably no gods out there, simply due to the fact that nobody's ever given me a good case for one existing. If one were to manifest him/her self to me, I'd likely go, "Oh, okay. You exist. Fine. Now, is there a reason I should worship you other than 'I'll send you to Hell if you don't,' or can I get on with my life?" There's plenty of other people out there who just don't see the existence or non-existence of a diety as a factor in their lives - we're less numerous than the people who've got religion, I'd guess, but we're out there. I do agree that this is the sort of topic that can get ugly fast, though. I recommend that, if people decide they need to share some part of their beliefs with the list, they should say it briefly, trying to make it relevant, and make their point without trying to upset or excite others. And I'd also recommend not to respond to others mentioning their religion or what not unless it's vitally important to the rest of the discussion. If someone inadvertently insults your religion, or says something that you feel begs to be corrected lest his immortal soul be imperiled (or whatever), try private email first - it'll cut down on off-topic and marginally on-topic list chatter greatly. And, just to try and put this letter back on topic a bit, I've got a few questions about Lilim I've been meaning to ask, one serious, one non. The non first: Is there a singular form of Lilim? It looks plural, like Seraph/Seraphim, Shedite/Shedim, Cherub/Cherubim, but I haven't seen a singular for it anywhere. It looks like it *could* be a plural of Lilith, but that risks confusion with their mother... Lilis perhaps? Lilite? Lilaph? On a more serious note, Lilim can divine Needs by looking into their subject's eyes, then fulfill them and trade that for a Geas. Is that the only way they can impose Geasa? Or can they agree to do something in exchange for a Geas even if it's not a Need they saw, or a Need at all, or even if they haven't ever looked into someone's eyes, or met them in person? If they can only trade Geasa for Needs they've seen in someone's eyes, it makes, for instance, the jobs of Lilim of Vapula much more difficult - they'll likely be doing favors, in some cases, for people they've met on the Net but never in person. And no Lil* (my improvised Lilim singular) would really gain a benefit by doing someone a favor if it wasn't something they Needed, or if they had the poor fortune not to see the Need the current conversation was about - which seems to restrict them more than seems in character for me. Just a thought. - -- Scott Johnson | zagyg@io.com | This space intentionally left blank. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 01:06:11 -0500 (CDT) From: Thany Subject: Re: IN> vessel types... On Fri, 25 Apr 1997, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Only Jordi's Kyrios can *possess* Insects -- by extension, a GM > could easily rule that no other angel could create an insect > vessel (on the grounds that it's too obnoxious to have a Strength 6 > flea running around)... Actually, I think that if you choose an Insect vessel, it's a swarm of them, instead of one individual bug. > But I don't think there's actually a ruling against *creating* an > insect Vessel... Dang. Those Impudites of Technology are looking > better and better! That's what Vapula has been aiming for... > ("That flea has *how* much Essence??") Hmmm... could a flea vessel be used to bite a Celestial for Essence? - -- "I can't believe in things that don't believe in me" - Marilyn Manson, _1996_ Disclaimer: Don't laugh, the joke is on you. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 03:21:33 -0500 From: Scott Turnbull Subject: IN> Millenium and In Nomine I'm sure many of us who have seen the Fox show Millennium, know that In Nomine shares genre similarities with it. I just wanted particularly point out the episode that aired on friday night, the 26th. If you didn't get to see it, search frantically for a friend who has tapped it, because it is a definite MUST SEE for In Nomine players/GM's. The plot itself ((and others the show has produced) could have been directly translated to an adventure for Soldiers of God. It seems like some of the antagonists could have been NPC's given direct stats from the IN system. Anyway, It's just a heads up and I hope you get a chance to see it. Cheers, Scott ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #140 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1996 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.