From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon May 5 06:14:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA09283 for ; Mon, 5 May 1997 06:14:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA06693 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 5 May 1997 05:49:31 -0500 Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 05:49:31 -0500 Message-Id: <199705051049.FAA06693@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #153 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, May 5 1997 Volume 01 : Number 153 In this digest: Re: IN> Card games Re: IN> Word Frequency Re: IN> DOMINIC.NET Re: IN> thought... Re: IN> Card games Re: IN> Clarifications from the book? Re: IN> Joe Angel 1 through 4 RE: IN> DOMINIC.NET Re: IN> DOMINIC.NET Re: IN> DOMINIC.NET IN> Dominic IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #152 Re: IN> DOMINIC.NET Re: IN> DOMINIC.NET Re: IN> Word Frequency Re: IN> Word Frequency Re: IN> Card games Re: IN> DOMINIC.NET Re: IN> Word Frequency IN> Elementalism IN> Chickens Re: IN> Card games ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 14:53:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: Re: IN> Card games > > > > > > > > > Also, someone told me that work had begun on an In Nomine CCG. I find it > > > unlikely, but would rather hear it from those who know better. > > > > > I believe there is (or was) a CCG for the original French system - > > published only in France so far. If SJG feel like picking up the rights > > to the CCG, I'd be very interested in checking it out... > > Heh. I'm kicking around some ideas based on the SJ version. > All VERY non-official and totally outside my role as the net-rep/ > answer guy. The basic premise is that you have a base character > (The AA/DP) and you try to forward your goals on earth. To make > it more interesting, there might be a variety of possible goals > per game (sway a certain number of humans, control a certain number > of servants, establish the right number of tethers and, of course, > utterly destroy your opponent). > Hey! I like this! What a Celestial card can do could be determined by its choir and the archangel (demon prince) that the player is representing. And to play up the way celestial politics seems to work, it may be better to replace the old win/lose dichotomy with a number of points scored in each game. Each celestial faction (Heaven or Hell) forms a side. You get 0 points if your side loses, 2 points if it wins, and 3 points if *your archangel* personally scores the most power by the end of the game. That way, the primary focus will be on making sure your side wins the great war, but there will still be the jockying for position that we know and love. And if you want *more* jockying for position, make it 0 for losing, *1* for being on the winning side and *2* for being top dog. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 20:12:45 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> Word Frequency On Sat, 3 May 1997 22:06:37 -0400 (EDT), Gregory Littmann wrote: >Its also worth remembering that the Word *we* read an Archangel as having >will only be the nearest English approximation to the actual Word. There >may be 10 celestial words that can each only be translated into "Sword", >simply becuase English isn't rich enough to draw the distinctions. Sword is merely the most general term referring to a long blade used for warfare. More specific terms include: back sword, bastard sword, bilbo, broadsword, claymore, cutlass, epee, falchion, gladius, glaive, greatsword, hand-and-a-half sword, hanger, katana, kris, pillow sword, rapier, saber, scimitar, short sword, small sword, two-handed sword, wakizashi, and yataghan. These are just the common terms delineating various lengths, curves, cross sections, hilts, nationalities, and other design features. Uncommon terms run into the hundreds, including many borrowed terms for specific foreign swords--consult a book on weapons if you're interested in a more complete list. English is quite rich: had a more specific term been desired for Laurence, plenty were available. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 13:46:00 -0700 From: Hollis McCray Subject: Re: IN> DOMINIC.NET At 02:32 PM 5/4/97 -0400, you wrote: > > > >> > >> >Remember, when Uriel got out of hand, he was recalled to the upper >> >Heavens by the almighty. Same thing could happen again. > >> It SHOULD! > >Are you against celestials being investigated in principle? Heaven may >not be swarming with double-agents, but if there were no Dominic, you can >bet it *would* be! True, but Dominic seems to concentrate on some Archangels and their servitors more than others.... Hollis McCray Madman at Large email: Mccrayh@yoda.cochise.cc.az.us "No matter where you go, there you are." - -Buckaroo Banzai ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 16:38:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: Re: IN> thought... On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Robert Coon wrote: > > > > Since we have an angel of Fire, one of earth (Stone), and one of air > > (Wind), why no angel of Water? I guess Novalis gets some of that, but I > > am a bit curious anyway.. > > > The Aristotlean elements are just an idea made by mankind -- there's > nothing that says that they all have to be represented in Heaven... > > Although, interestingly enough, aren't the Chinese elements all represented > in Heaven as well (except Water, if that is one... I can't recall...)? > The Chinese elements are Earth, Fire, Metal, Water and Wood. That's two out of five I'm afraid. :) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 07:00:07 +1100 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: Re: IN> Card games John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > > On May 4, 11:19pm, Patrick O'Duffy wrote: > > Subject: Re: IN> Card games > > Bill Sier wrote: > > > > > > > > > Also, someone told me that work had begun on an In Nomine CCG. I find it > > > unlikely, but would rather hear it from those who know better. > > > > > I believe there is (or was) a CCG for the original French system - > > published only in France so far. If SJG feel like picking up the rights > > to the CCG, I'd be very interested in checking it out... > > Heh. I'm kicking around some ideas based on the SJ version. > All VERY non-official and totally outside my role as the net-rep/ > answer guy. The basic premise is that you have a base character > (The AA/DP) and you try to forward your goals on earth. To make > it more interesting, there might be a variety of possible goals > per game (sway a certain number of humans, control a certain number > of servants, establish the right number of tethers and, of course, > utterly destroy your opponent). Well, as a retailer, if you publish it, I'll stock it. As a gamer, if you set it up, and you need playtesters... - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia I'll have the veal, a lovely meal That's how I feel - May I use your skull for a bowl? TOM WAITS, "The Black Rider" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 17:06:30 -0500 (CDT) From: Bill Sier Subject: Re: IN> Clarifications from the book? On Sun, 4 May 1997, Scott Turnbull wrote: > 1st [snip] I dunno. I'd wondered about this myself. > 2nd [snip] I think it's included, like Asmodeus' extra points for a Role. (Note the use of the word "also".) > 3rd [snip] Unofficially (of course), a likely resistance roll would be against whatever characteristic is being lowered. Without a resistance roll, this song is just silly. - -- "It was when I received the endorsement of Alec Guiness that I knew the Force was with us." - Martin Bell, MP for Tatton Disclaimer: They're my opinions, but they're your problem. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 09:10:27 GMT+10 From: "Leathal Weapon" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: Re: IN> Joe Angel 1 through 4 In reply to: > > About the only question I have is...egad. ANOTHER Kyrio question. They > > possess people and critters, is it kosher for them to buy vessels? > From memory, Michael's (War) can create their own but their Forces are then tied up in that Vessel (how many depends on what type it is), Laurence's (Sword) can have the body of a soldier who died needlessly (I'm not sure if this ties up Forces, it's not clear), David's (Stone) can have stone Vessels (gargoyles, statues etc), Janus' (Wind) can manifest as gas and I can't think of any more that can do anything like this. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 May 97 23:00:19 UT From: "Kurt White" Subject: RE: IN> DOMINIC.NET I would just like to second this post if I may. I had the impression this was a list dedicated to the finer aspects of In Nomine, not an in-joke spamming session. I don't want to sound like some whingeing Elohim, but there is a time and a place for everything, and this list is just too large for throw away jokes. BTW - I love the twelve page replies with an entire message quoted, then some sod writes "I agree" at the bottom :) Nybbas strikes!!!! - -Kurt "There are things that one should never see" - ---------- I think I would like to second the eye poking out for the continuing saga going on here. For a few posts it was cute, but after a while it grows stale. This list is ABOUT role-playing not FOR role-playing. Would it be too much to ask that this go to some private e-mail? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 09:44:38 GMT+10 From: "Leathal Weapon" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: Re: IN> DOMINIC.NET In reply to: . And, BTW, Dominic judges the > > heavenly host, bu who judges Dominic? > > God. > Dominic is the Judge, God is the appeals court. He took Uriel back up to (higher) Heaven, and aquitted Michael when Dominic found him guilty. Also, if you read the descriptions, Dominic is respectful of Yves almost to the point of fear (yes, that's right). Dominic hates Gabriel and wants her head on a platter, but won't because Yves protects her. Yves doesn't protect Michael, but God does, and no-one protects Eli (not even himself) so he gets persecuted. If you peel back the layers, I think Dominic can't 'lighten up' because people will see that deep down he is truly an insecure bully who is too cowardly to pick on anyone who can stand up to him. Kick-them-while-they're-down and Pick-on-the-smaller-kid. Picture this. If Dominic was hunting Eli and Eli came up to Dom in all his Celestial glory and said "What?" who do you think would back down first? Whose Word is top dog around here? Just something to think about. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 19:25:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Cymrys@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> DOMINIC.NET In a message dated 4.5.97 21:23:04, you write: << >> > >> >Remember, when Uriel got out of hand, he was recalled to the upper >> >Heavens by the almighty. Same thing could happen again. > >> It SHOULD! > >Are you against celestials being investigated in principle? Heaven may >not be swarming with double-agents, but if there were no Dominic, you can >bet it *would* be! True, but Dominic seems to concentrate on some Archangels and their servitors more than others.... >> OH yeah, how true. But he doesn't always get away with it... (Yo, Dominic - how's the whole Michael-trial thing going? God acquitted him personally? Aww, diddums...) Malakite of War Cymrys "Laigh, and the world laighs with you. Prank a Malakite and yer on yer own..." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 19:21:56 -0400 (EDT) From: "Paul F. Strack" Subject: IN> Dominic Here's a piece of fiction I wrote a few months ago when I was trying to get a grasp on what Dominic is like. - -- Dominic's Tale Zuriphel's mortal servants strove against the advancing Malakim in vain. Gunshots echoed through the halls of the sacred grotto and the groans of the fallen were ignored in the fire of battle. The Symphony screamed with the strain of Celestial war on Earth. Emily Perkins wept in despair. She was a Soldier of God, sworn to uphold His Might and Word. How did it come to pass that she herself was fighting the angelic host? Panting with exhaustion, Zuriphel himself looked beaten. The last of his Essence was spent long ago, and only the power of the holy place that was his charge supported him now. Zuriphel was yelling hoarsely, rallying his forces for a final attempt to break free of the tightening circle of enemies, when a hooded form entered the room. All fell silent, Malakim and Soldiers alike, overwhelmed by the presence of the Angel of Judgment. Emily had time for a single thought, that Zuriphel's transgression must be terrible indeed to merit the Archangel Dominic's personal attention. Then Archangel spoke. "Zuriphel," Dominic's voice boomed through the chamber. "In His name I denounce you. You have consorted with demons, risking the safety and purity of those under your protection. Through your negligence the Enemy has learned of the order and disposition of many of our forces throughout this land. You have echoed the lies of the Enemy, tempting those who follow you away from the path of righteousness. The fact that you are entrusted with great honor - the Seneschal of this holy Tether to Heaven - only increases your blasphemy. For your crimes and sins against the holy Name, I cast you out. I drive you into the greater darkness, that you may meditate on your folly until the Final Days." Zuriphel drew himself up straight, his eyes blazing with rage. "How dare you denounce me, you self righteous prick. You are the cause of all our woe. The strife amongst the angelic host only furthers the infernal cause. What sin is it to echo demonic words if they speak truth? How can you stand by while..." Zuriphel's speech was cut short by the roar of flames. The angel screamed in agony as whirlwind of fire swept over him, pushing him back and down into the depths. The Zuriphel's mortal vessel burned away as his spiritual form was flung into darkness. Nearly all of Zuriphel's human servants stood stunned. All, that is, except Emily. "How could you?" she screamed, plummeting forward. "How can you condemn him, who did so much for Heaven? He was kind, beautiful and good, and you cast him away without a moment's thought! Doesn't he get a say, a chance to defend himself? Can divine justice be so arbitrary, so cruel?" Without even a glance, Dominic grabbed her coat, lifting her from the floor. He calmly directed the Malakim to clear the room and to guard against infernal invaders that might hope to take advantage of Heaven's temporary weakness. Emily raged incoherently and struggled in the Archangel's grips as her comrades filed hopelessly from the room. Soon her sobs where the only sounds left in the battered hall. "Fear not, mortal," Dominic said. "You are free of stain. Zuriphel's sin has been cut off at its root, and no more of your companions will suffer for it. When Heaven's new warden arrives to protect this place, you may serve that angel as you did Zuriphel before." "You bastard!" she cried. "I don't care what happens to me now. You've just destroyed the only thing that I've ever cared about. He never had a hope, no chance at all." Dominic frowned. "His crimes were unpardonable, especially for one of his station. To spout that demonic prattle to mortal ears was ..." "But it was true!" Emily burst out. "The archangels do bicker amongst themselves, and it does make Hell's work that much easier. Even if it was wrong of him to say so, you never gave him any warning, any chance to redeem himself." "Enough!" The Archangel of Justice loomed over the young woman, cowing her into silence. For the first time Emily met his eyes, burning deep within his cowl. For the first time she realized the power of the being that stood before her, a Prince of Heaven unveiled, and she thought, Dear God whom I serve, he could destroy me with a glance. Preserve me! She crumbled to the ground, expecting the death blow at any time. She trembled with her arms shielding her head, everything but her eminent demise forgotten. But only silence fell, and after a moment she heard a deep sigh, with the weight of ages wrapped around that breath. "Sit child," the Archangel intoned. "Speak no more. Listen to this story before you choose to judge me, who judges all." Emily looked up to see Dominic gazing into the distance. It was as if his vision pierced all the veils of time and distance, to some ancient past known only to the oldest of God's progeny. His arms hung limply at his side, his form perfectly still. "In the days before the beginning of time," Dominic began. "The Lord called His angels before Him. He spoke of a world He would soon make, of a species of creature that would inhabit it. He spoke of our role in that world, as guardian and guides. To each angel, He gave a task, a Word to defend and uphold, that the Symphony could thus be sung. "I was among the first who came before Him, and I confess that I expected to be gifted with honor and a great Word. Thus I was surprised when the Word I received was one never before heard in Heaven, that of Judgment. I asked His Glory, 'What is this thing Judgment? What does it mean?' "I was not the first to ask such questions, and He explained His meaning as patiently to me as He did to all the others. He said the Judgment led to the punishment of sin, that those who worked against His Will be my domain. He told me that it was my task to watch for those who would stray from the path of truth and goodness. "I walked away, humbled and confused. Such a thing was unimaginable to me. He Will was so manifestly righteous, so true, that I could not conceive how any could ever disobey it. I was lost long in thought, and so missed much of the great work of that eon. My mind ran it circles, and I began to feel that fulfilling my Word would be impossible. There would never be a need for it. "As I pondered my dilemma, another of the Heavenly host, a lesser angel named Abdiel, approached me. It was a few moment before I notice his presence, and when I did, it was because his countenance, posture and attitude were so strange. It clear that he wished to speak with me, but that he dreaded it at the same time. He was in conflict, and I had never before seen such emotions on an angelic face. "I waited, and at last he began. 'Dominic,' he said. 'There is something I ... there is something that you need to know. I think that I have witnessed something that falls under your Word.' "I did not know what to say, and there was an uncomfortable silence before he continued. 'I have been with Lucifer. He has been saying ... things. Disturbing things. He has said that he believes the Highest will set the inhabitants of the new world above us, that they will displace us in His eyes. Lucifer said there is a prophecy of a king that shall rise from among them and lay us low. That they shall make an end to angelic glory, and force us to bow before them.' "I was understandably shocked. I had some inkling of this prophecy, but never had I heard it interpreted in that way. The worst was yet to come, however. "'Lucifer also asked how I felt about the Plan,' Abdiel went on. 'He seemed to want to know if I might feel as he did. I told Lucifer that I trusted in the wisdom of the Highest, that I had faith that all would be for the greater good. Lucifer bantered with me a while longer, prying at me, and then left me with some pleasantries. I ... do not think I am the only one he has spoken to. I believe he is gathering others, speaking with them as well. I do not know what he says to them.' "'You did well to come to me,' I reassured Abdiel. 'I will look into this. Rest assured that the matter will soon be settled.' "I left him then, and I do not know if he saw how troubled I was. I still could not believe such a thing was possible. Lucifer was more highly placed than I, one of the most favored of the Lord. How could I confront one such as he with such a terrible question? In the end I chose to speak to him even as I do now: plainly. I went to Lucifer and without preamble said, 'Have you been speaking with other angels against the Plan?' "Lucifer was completely taken aback. 'Whatever do you mean?' he asked. I proceeded to explain all that Abdiel had told me; guilelessly I left out nothing. When I was done, he smiled at me. My doubts broke like mist before the beatific glow of that Seraph. "'Surely Abdiel misunderstood my questioning,' was his answer. 'I have been speaking with many of the Heavenly Host. My task in the new world is a profound and complex one. I thought it wise to consult the opinions of my fellows in the problems relating to my Word. I am deeply sorry that my speech disturbed poor Abdiel. I am sure his task is difficult as well, and I hope my rambling did overly not burden him.' "'But your words were spoken in such a way as to call into question the very Plan itself,' I replied. "'But that cannot be,' Lucifer was quick to respond. 'How can anything counter the Plan? How can anything not be a part of it? The Lord's wisdom encompasses all. I only sought to perfect my own understanding.' That high angel paused meaningfully a moment, furrowing his exquisite brow as if deeply troubled. I remember next his words well 'If my speech disturbed Abdiel so, perhaps this is an issue that should be brought before the Council of the Seraphim. It is something that should be aired and corrected before proceeding with the work. It would not do to continue with the Plan when we are surrounded by uncertainty.' "Oh he twisted my mind as if held my heart in his hand! That I was not the first to be misled by his wiles does not lessen my shame. I was quick to reassure him that no inquiry would be necessary, and certainly that no pause in the work was required. His protests only made me more certain. At last he allowed me to persuade him to relent, and I left him with an only admonishment to choose his future words more carefully. How that serpent must have laughed in his heart at my error! "Not even when the Enemy's great deception was revealed, did I realize the extent of my failing. Only when I stood at the edge of Heaven and watch the Fallen plummet into the void did I know. So many spirits lost, so much glory wasted! I was told I could have done nothing that would have prevented it. I was told that Lucifer power was greater than mine, that I was not the only one to err that day, that the Fall may have been ordained from the beginning. None of it mattered. "I know, I *know*, that if I had been more vigilant, I could have saved them. Even if I could not prevent the Fall, I could have saved some of the Fallen. I remained silent, and they were damned. Who knows how many Lucifer turned after I let him go free?" Dominic turned his gaze on Emily once again. His eyes were now blank, cold and unfeeling. His voice was rigid as steel. "That is why I do what I must. The poison planted by the Lord of Lies lingers until this very day. Judgment must be unwavering and eternal. There is no place in it for mercy. I am merciless, that others can have mercy. I am unforgiving, that others may forgive." Without another word, Dominic turned and was enveloped in light. His glowing form lifted up, slowing fading from sight until no sign of it remained. Emily was left in the barren chamber, numb with loss. "There will come a day," she whispered, "when you will be judged. And I dearly hope to stand and see it." Paul Strack | Madness takes its toll. pfstrack@math.unc.edu | Please have exact change. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ World of Darkness Page - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/wod.html In Nomine Page: INC2 - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/innom/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 20:37:32 -0500 (CDT) From: rogue@ez-net.com (RogueLdr) Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #152 > >to Rogue and the list: > you signed off, >>Rogue, Who is Desperately tring to Develop Dominic > this combined with your comments about Dom. being lonely and Dom. >judging himself=Rogue, Who Has a Firm Grasp on Dom.'s Personality . what says >the list--shall we refer all future questions on Dom.'s reactions to Rogue, as our >inhouse expert on Dominic? > >tom Why, Tom, you do me an honor! I never professed to be an expert on Dominic (who but Derek can be?) I just seem him as more than a Man In Black out to Hurt People. I'd be happy to answer any questions to the best of my ability, of course. Thank you. >> > >> >Remember, when Uriel got out of hand, he was recalled to the upper >> >Heavens by the almighty. Same thing could happen again. > >> It SHOULD! > >Are you against celestials being investigated in principle? Heaven may >not be swarming with double-agents, but if there were no Dominic, you can >bet it *would* be! Pre-cisely! - -Rogue, Whose Malakim Of Dominic May Not Be The Most Well Liked NPC, But Sure Is Respected (And For More than Just the MIB Status) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 21:51:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: Re: IN> DOMINIC.NET > > << > >> > > > > > > >Are you against celestials being investigated in principle? Heaven may > >not be swarming with double-agents, but if there were no Dominic, you can > >bet it *would* be! > True, but Dominic seems to concentrate on some Archangels and their > servitors more than others.... >> Sure! You don't want the cops investigating everyone equally. You want them investigating whoever is acting most suspicious. Some Archangels and their servitors are acting more suspicious than others. Just why *is* Eli being so damned secretive anyway? > OH yeah, how true. But he doesn't always get away with it... (Yo, Dominic - > how's the whole Michael-trial thing going? God acquitted him personally? Aww, > diddums...) Its when the prosecution has a 100% success rate that you know your living with a corrupt system. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 21:58:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: Re: IN> DOMINIC.NET > > > > > > If you peel > back the layers, I think Dominic can't 'lighten up' because people > will see that deep down he is truly an insecure bully who is too > cowardly to pick on anyone who can stand up to him. No-one who is a coward is *ever* going to try to pick on Michael! Who is scarier to have as an enemy in the whole of Heaven? Gabriel isn't exactly a push-over either. If there's one thing you've got to give Dominic, he isn't afraid to step on *anyone's* toes. (Now, you may say that he steps on too many toes, but that's another issue) > Kick-them-while-they're-down and Pick-on-the-smaller-kid. I haven't seen him take a crack at Novalis. Or Marc. > Picture > this. If Dominic was hunting Eli and Eli came up to Dom in all his > Celestial glory and said "What?" who do you think would back down > first? Whose Word is top dog around here? Dominic would ask that Eli explain what he has been doing. There is *no* way that Dominic would back down from fear. The guy took on Michael! Satan himself is frightened of Michael... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 22:17:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: Re: IN> Word Frequency > > >Its also worth remembering that the Word *we* read an Archangel as having > >will only be the nearest English approximation to the actual Word. There > >may be 10 celestial words that can each only be translated into "Sword", > >simply becuase English isn't rich enough to draw the distinctions. > > Sword is merely the most general term referring to a long blade used > for warfare. More specific terms include: back sword, bastard sword, > bilbo, broadsword, claymore, cutlass, epee, falchion, gladius, glaive, > greatsword, hand-and-a-half sword, hanger, katana, kris, pillow sword, > rapier, saber, scimitar, short sword, small sword, two-handed sword, > wakizashi, and yataghan. These are just the common terms delineating > various lengths, curves, cross sections, hilts, nationalities, and > other design features. Uncommon terms run into the hundreds, including > many borrowed terms for specific foreign swords--consult a book on > weapons if you're interested in a more complete list. English is quite > rich: had a more specific term been desired for Laurence, plenty were > available. > English is quite rich, but that does not show that the celestial tongue is richer. Besides, all the different terms you have presented for swords have been for swords that differ because of their construction. There are other ways to categorise them - your ancestral sword, the sword that makes you feel angst when you pick it up yet also makes you want to slay demons, sword that is either for cutting pizza or for cutting hair. And so forth. Obviously, all of these can be expressed in English, because I just expressed them in English, but that does not mean that there are subtle concepts that the celestial language can express in a word that English can't even express in a book full of words. Consider trying to translate the Japanes word "Bushido" into English in a way that preserves its meaning. That's *hard*! And its just a translation from one Earthly tongue to another. You can bet there are bigger problems translating a celestial word into an English one. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 23:29:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: Re: IN> Word Frequency On Sun, 4 May 1997, Gregory Littmann wrote: > > > English is quite rich, but that does not show that the celestial tongue is > richer. This was, of course, meant to read "English is quite rich, but that does not show that the celestial tongue is *not* richer". Kobal strikes again. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 22:25:59 -0500 From: tom timberlake Subject: Re: IN> Card games an INteresting idea. hmmm...ok, put me down as another guinea pig, erh... volunteer for playtesting any as yet unrealized IN card game. it would be a good way to get a taste of the setting, the World of Angels, so to speak, without having to worry about how many points a vessel cost, how many points to put into a fighting skill, etc... 1 question: is Patrick going to move to Oklahoma or am I going to have to move to Australia, so he and I can sit across the table to playtest the cards? I don't see playtesting by IRC as being a completely viable option, though I suppose he and I could each serve as a nucleus for separate playtest groups. well, we'll see what develops.... tom "...say hello to the frog..." Heather Alexander _Life's Flame_ "The Garden" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 14:54:57 GMT+10 From: "Leathal Weapon" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: Re: IN> DOMINIC.NET In reply to: > No-one who is a coward is *ever* going to try to pick on Michael! Who is > scarier to have as an enemy in the whole of Heaven? Gabriel isn't exactly > a push-over either. If there's one thing you've got to give Dominic, he > isn't afraid to step on *anyone's* toes. (Now, you may say that he steps > on too many toes, but that's another issue) I'm not saying that Dom was always a coward, but I think he is now. Back when he accused Michael of Heresy, he would have had Heaven's backing because they didn't know better and after all, it was Dominic's job. Therefore they'd all back Dominic. Michael may be strong, but he's VERY loyal to God, so wouldn't have simply kicked Dom's butt for doing a job he was supposed to do, trusting that 'the system' would work. It didn't, and he got persecuted, leaving him with a hatred of Dominic. God intervened and aquitted Michael. All of a sudden, all of Heaven can see that Dominic isn't always right, and that his power isn't absolute, so he loses followers. Yves is their next favourite so they follow him. Dominic is shaken by the experience, but sees Gabriel being 'heretical' by talking to mortals, so he tries to persecute her. Yves intervenes and Gabriel storms off. Dom's lost his target and most of Heaven is against him for that one. So his confidence is shaken. He loks for another target. Eli has gone mortal, so therefore MUST be turning to evil. Better still, he doesn't have that many allies, and he won't even defend himself. Finally someone Dominic can pick on for a long time without fear of obvious retribution (either from other Archangels or from the Boss Himself). So Dominic sends his followers to seek out 'heretics' among the lesser angels, and only persecutes Eli himself, whilst maintaining a strong front. He's afraid of being publicly shown to be wrong again, so won't risk it. Novalis and Marc could be targets, but they have allies. Notice how he hasn't tried to get Janus? Janus is too strong, and has several allies. I can see a major campaign here with several angels (hopefully a few of Dominic's followers) realising the truth and trying to get Dominic to realise it so he can begin the self healing process and regain hhis former courage. It would be difficult, but would make for a great story. > Dominic would ask that Eli explain what he has been doing. There is *no* > way that Dominic would back down from fear. The guy took on Michael! > Satan himself is frightened of Michael... Not the way I see it. Dominic would stand up before Eli and say "Thou art a heretic. I cast you down from God's sight." Then Eli would pat Dominic on the head and say "Sorry, I don't think so." Dominic would just collapse from being shown up again in front of Heaven, and his brave front would shatter, and everyone would be able to see him for the coward he had become. This is probably what he would need in order to heal himself and become what he was. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 05:47:41 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> Word Frequency On Sun, 4 May 1997 22:17:20 -0400 (EDT), Gregory Littmann wrote: >> Sword is merely the most general term referring to a long blade used >> for warfare. More specific terms include: back sword, bastard sword, >> bilbo, broadsword, claymore, cutlass, epee, falchion, gladius, glaive, >> greatsword, hand-and-a-half sword, hanger, katana, kris, pillow sword, >> rapier, saber, scimitar, short sword, small sword, two-handed sword, >> wakizashi, and yataghan. These are just the common terms delineating >> various lengths, curves, cross sections, hilts, nationalities, and >> other design features. Uncommon terms run into the hundreds, including >> many borrowed terms for specific foreign swords--consult a book on >> weapons if you're interested in a more complete list. English is quite >> rich: had a more specific term been desired for Laurence, plenty were >> available. >> >English is quite rich, but that does not show that the celestial tongue is >richer. If I implied that, I did not mean to. Reading your later note: nor the contrary. > Besides, all the different terms you have presented for swords >have been for swords that differ because of their construction. There are >other ways to categorise them - your ancestral sword, the sword that makes >you feel angst when you pick it up yet also makes you want to slay demons, >sword that is either for cutting pizza or for cutting hair. And so forth. Actually, many of the above are named by mode of usage (rapier), place of usage (pillow sword) or name a historical weapon (gladius); the particular construction followed from the mode of usage, etc. For example, a rapier is shaped like a rapier because of the development of fencing as a fighting style. >Obviously, all of these can be expressed in English, because I just >expressed them in English, but that does not mean that there are subtle >concepts that the celestial language can express in a word that English >can't even express in a book full of words. Consider trying to translate >the Japanes word "Bushido" into English in a way that preserves its >meaning. That's *hard*! And its just a translation from one Earthly >tongue to another. You can bet there are bigger problems translating a >celestial word into an English one. I quite agree, and most people who want to translate Bushido into English translate it as "Bushido". :) What I was trying to contest was the IMHO unwarranted assumption that sword was intended to be some special sword instead of being inclusive. It is somewhat specific, using sword instead of weapon, but I see no evidence that any more specific sword was intended. Sword is merely used as a symbol for a somewhat more honorable, formal mode of combat than Michael's War. Laurence wouldn't fight a guerilla war; Michael would. Had they wanted to imply still more, they could have. For example, calling Laurence the Archangel of Excaliber would have implied a knightly code of honor. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 02:14:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Raoul Duke Subject: IN> Elementalism > > > Since we have an angel of Fire, one of earth (Stone), and one of air > > > (Wind), why no angel of Water? I guess Novalis gets some of that, but I > > > am a bit curious anyway.. > > The Aristotlean elements are just an idea made by mankind -- there's > > nothing that says that they all have to be represented in Heaven... > > Although, interestingly enough, aren't the Chinese elements all represented > > in Heaven as well (except Water, if that is one... I can't recall...)? > The Chinese elements are Earth, Fire, Metal, Water and Wood. That's two > out of five I'm afraid. :) Well, if we stretch it, Novalis could handle Wood, and Swords are made of metal! }:::) Seriously, an AA of Water might be a nice idea... Perhaps tapping into some Jungian ideas of rebirth and spirit, although that might infringe a little on Blandine's turf... Any takers? Joe ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 18:12:49 +1000 (EST) From: Peter Frederick Subject: IN> Chickens Dear List had to write this to get it out of my head, so no reason why I should suffer alone :) . Why did the Chicken Cross the Road? Eli - this side's a bum scene man. Novalis - to smell the flowers on the other side. Marc - to gain a commercial advantage. Michael - to get a better line of fire. Blandine - Fish. Janus - Why does it need a Reason? Jordi - to show contempt for the artifacts of civilisation. Jean - it's easier than crossing a swamp Lawrence - it was ordered to. Yves - there isn't anywhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be. Gabrial - it felt like it. David - to test it's limits. Dominic - It's Crossing was Without Fault. Thanking you for your Indulgence. Yours Peter. Email to peterf@geko.net.au "Whoso loveth God truely must not expect to be loved by Him in return." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 20:38:29 +1100 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: Re: IN> Card games tom timberlake wrote: > > an INteresting idea. hmmm...ok, put me down as another guinea pig, > erh... volunteer for playtesting any as yet unrealized IN card game. it > would be a good way to get a taste of the setting, the World of Angels, > so to speak, without having to worry about how many points a vessel > cost, how many points to put into a fighting skill, etc... 1 question: > is Patrick going to move to Oklahoma or am I going to have to move to > Australia, so he and I can sit across the table to playtest the cards? I > don't see playtesting by IRC as being a completely viable option, though > I suppose he and I could each serve as a nucleus for separate playtest > groups. well, we'll see what develops.... I was trying to ignore that small geographical problem... optimism recognizes none of reality's barriers... - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia I'll have the veal, a lovely meal That's how I feel - May I use your skull for a bowl? TOM WAITS, "The Black Rider" ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #153 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.