From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed May 7 22:24:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA23571 for ; Wed, 7 May 1997 22:24:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA29875 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 7 May 1997 20:48:03 -0500 Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 20:48:03 -0500 Message-Id: <199705080148.UAA29875@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #157 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, May 7 1997 Volume 01 : Number 157 In this digest: Re: IN> Beleth/Blandine & Dis Sword... (Re: IN> 5 elephants, er elements...) Re: IN> Vessels, sex, and children Re: Laurence (Re: IN> 5 elephants, er elements... [none] Re: IN> the afterlife as mosh pit... Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #155 Re: IN> Vessels, sex, and children Re: Laurence (Re: IN> 5 elephants, er elements... Re: IN> Here goes... hope this works Re: IN> Confusion in In Nomine... New Angels (Re: Laurence (Re: IN> 5 elephants, er elements... IN> The Goals of Heaven IN> The Goals of Hell IN> Inflamations IN> SPAM EMAIL... BAD. Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #155 IN> Re: What Do Djinn Know? IN> Where Angels Come From IN>Archangel of Death IN> PBEM IN>the angel of literary criticism IN> Re: vessels, seeds, & children Re[2]: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #155 Re[2]: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #155 Re: IN> Vessels, sex, and children [none] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 19:50:09 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Beleth/Blandine & Dis At 11:54 AM -0400 5/6/97, Moriah - Steve Jackson Games wrote: >Q: Beleth's and Blandine's Servitors may not take celestial form while on >earth. How do they every ascend w/o incurring Dissonance (since they must >first attain celestial form before ascending)? > >A: They must use dreamsurfing and ethereal tethers as pathways to the >celestial realms to avoid Dissonance. Ethereal Tethers? (And what about Corporeal tethers?) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 19:39:58 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Sword... (Re: IN> 5 elephants, er elements...) At 10:17 PM -0500 5/5/97, Nathaniel P Eliot wrote: >Mage Bob writes: >>Metal -> Laurence > >I don't think his word extends that far - in fact, I'm having >problems with his word as written. I think I'm going to rule that >his word is actually a much larger celestial phrase, but the best >translation that could be easily read is Sword. The question is, >what does his word truely cover? Sword of Honorable Battle? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 19:49:23 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Vessels, sex, and children At 10:48 AM -0500 5/6/97, PERRY M. LLOYD wrote: >That's brings up another point. Female vessels. Menarche and menopause I'm >sure are not a problem. But what about the Menstrual Cycle? No. It doesn't happen. Unless the celestial wants it to. It's like eating, drinking, and excreting. Voluntary only. I'd say the same with female animals -- they don't go into heat unless the celestial wants. (Interesting question *there* -- does a vessel excrete if the celestial eats and drinks, automatically, or is that choice too? Can a celestial choose to drink six kegs and never go to the bathroom? Can a newly- arrived celestial get a urine test first thing, without having had a sip of water?) > I'm told that >it's a large part of female identity here on earth (just finished a Psychology >of Women course). Would celestials get PMS? he he he, Lenore with PMS... > >"Run away!!! Run away!!!" You do not want to see the Archangel of Archives (that's me) with PMS -- or cramps. Never, ever see a Kyriotate with cramps. Hm... A Kyrio might find itself in a host that had cramps... And would probably be doing the Song of Healing right quick! ("It's sick, it's sick! My poor host is sick!") Ahem. No, no PMS, no cramps. (Unless your Superior was playing a *really* dirty trick on you!) In some ways, celestials are really, really alien. Utterly alien with their knowledge and age one moment, utterly naive the next when it comes to dealing with some really human thing. Note Seraphim and Cherubim and soda machines. And Elohim, for that matter. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 16:39:57 -0700 From: "Manuel Rivera" Subject: Re: Laurence (Re: IN> 5 elephants, er elements... I have a question: where do new angels/demons come from? Was there a fixed number in the beginning and both sides have lost some due to attrition? It seems that Hell can "recruit" demons, but from where (other than fallen angels). How does Heaven recruit/make/get new angels? Just wondering... - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ------------------------------------------------- Mick = mcrivera@princeton.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 17:06:20 -0400 (EDT) From: gibsonc@nku.edu Subject: [none] does a djinn of kronos know automatically if a person if attuned to a celestial? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 17:15:10 -0400 From: ixdragons@worldnet.att.net Subject: Re: IN> the afterlife as mosh pit... Mage Bob wrote: > Original sin drags every soul towards hell, weighting it down like cement > shoes (lets not get too deep into my "the afterlife is like the mob" theory > shall we?), the only thing that saves a soul is Dominic's two boys standing > outside the gates pickin' out the good ones... this is also why purgatory > no longer exists, that ENTIRE celestial realm is now what is commonly > referred to by the dead as "the press" think of it like an eternal mosh pit > with new persons dropping onto the top & constantly being "surfed" towards > the gates of hell so that others can delay their fate. (yep its the only > mosh pit in creation where the moshers are trying to get away from the > bands... :) te he) > some souls cut their feet off before fully crossing into the celestial so > that their heavy cement shoes wont hurt anyone when they fall into the > crowd, these souls are commonly called saints... > > ~Mage Bob Unfortunately for this theory Original Sin is a Christian idea and In Nomine is not specifically Christian. ixDragons sends.... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 17:11:37 -0400 From: ixdragons@worldnet.att.net Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #155 Derek Patton Pearcy wrote: > > Somebody on the list wrote: > > Michael voluntarily stepped down as the leader of the Host, elevating his most > favored lieutenant - Laurence - to replace him. > > ---------- > > This is partially right; you're missing a step. Michael stepped aside to > let Uriel, Archangel of Purity, take his place. When Uriel ascended to > higher realms of Heaven, Laurence took his place. This irked Khalid, > another of Uriel's Servitors, who felt he truly deserved the generalship of > Heaven's armies. He decided to back the Moslems (founded by Gabriel, > long-time political enemy of both Dominic and Uriel), becoming the > Archangel of Faith and eventually the protector of Islam. Needless to say, > this irked Laurence, protector of Christianity, especially during all that > uncomfortable Crusade business. > > Michael was a Seraphim, while Laurence is a Malakite -- this is why Michael > could be questioned, while Laurence's purity has never been doubted. > Malakim, who cannot Fall, are beyond scrutiny (except by Dominic's angels, > who're always on the lookout for extremely dissonant Malakim). > > Just catching up as I fly through, > > Derek As Salamu Alaikum, Muslims not Moslems. Islam was not founded by Gabriel but revealed through him. Laurence PERSONALLY protects Christianity; i.e.' it is not his job, he does it because he wants to as a "collateral duty". Additionally I'd like to add that Dominic's inquest of Gabriel and Micheal is/was sparked by his personal preference for Christianity by which he measures the truth. Jews, Christians and Muslims can and do lay claim to the saim heritage, but they each find each other's beliefs equally heretical. IMHO it seems that alot of people are posting distinctly Christian points of view, which in and of itself pose no problem. My only complaint is that I would appreciate some research into any faith before including it in your point of view. I am a Muslim so Islam of course is important to me. If I used the Waco insident as a reference for Christianity I'm sure I'd regret it. I must also include that I am glad so far that no one has generalized Muslims as terrorists. ixDragons sends... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 08:48:58 GMT+10 From: "Leathal Weapon" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: Re: IN> Vessels, sex, and children In reply to: > (Interesting question *there* -- does a vessel excrete if the celestial > eats and drinks, automatically, or is that choice too? Can a celestial > choose to drink six kegs and never go to the bathroom? Can a newly- > arrived celestial get a urine test first thing, without having had a > sip of water?) I'd say that if the celestial has made the conscious decision to eat &/or drink, then they've also resigned themselves to the consequences of that act, excreting and egesting, so yes they would have to. As for urine test, I'd say no, but a quick drink of water would fix that problem (honestly, not everyone who is asked to give a sample for a urine test has the bladder content that's needed right away *grin*). Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 May 97 18:23 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: Laurence (Re: IN> 5 elephants, er elements... > I have a question: where do new angels/demons come from? There are hints in the book. Both sides can create new entities, mechanism rather unspecified, though there's a comment somewhere implying that Superiors can do it somehow. It seems that you can either create an imp/gremlin/reliever and "grow" it up into a full-fledged celestial, or you can create a full 9-Force celestial directly. There was also some discussion on the "Celestials and Sex" thread a while back where unofficial comments were made about ordinary celestials maybe being able to make new celestials somehow. Whatever the mechanism, since it involves Forces, one presumes it's *very* expensive to do. One speculation that I like is the notion that the "parent(s)" contribute the necessary Forces out of their own. Clearly this is not something that would be done lightly! - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 08:23:02 +1100 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: Re: IN> Here goes... hope this works Damian O'Dea wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > Something I came up with after a friend (player in my IN gp) > showed me the "Angels on a Pin" post a couple of days ago. > > Maxwell's Demons for In Nomine: > [big ol' snip right about here] That's kinda cool, Damian - takes me back to my abortive science career at Uni. Hope you've got more... - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia I'll have the veal, a lovely meal That's how I feel - May I use your skull for a bowl? TOM WAITS, "The Black Rider" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 17:52:16 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Confusion in In Nomine... At 4:32 PM +0100 5/7/97, pchan@videotron.co.uk wrote: (In Nomine 1/2 -- Celestials try to determine how Ranma and the others change vessels without Disturbance! Or are they Children of the Grigori??) >1. Unarmed combat. On p.64, it says that the attack roll target is Strength >plus Corporeal Forces. On p.75, under the Fighting skill, it implies that it >should be Strength or Will plus Fighting skill. Am I simply getting the >wrong end of the stick on this one? After all, if you have no Fighting >skill, your attack roll could be Strength plus the default penalty for >Fighting, rather than Strength plus Corporeal Forces. I think this has been suggested to be Fighting skill level + the various formula listed in the Combat chapter. This one is perhaps up in the air. >2. Cost of a role. On p.43, it says that the cost is half (the Resource >level times the Status level of the Role). On p.72, it says that the cost is >twice the Resource level of the role, plus two points for every Status level >above one. Use p. 43. That should be in the FAQ *and* Errata. >3. Which way do we round when we calculate costs? Should we be pernickity >and allow fractional costs (hence possibly allowing players to fudge their >character creation to squeeze every last advantage out of the character >creation rules)? Round so as to be most annoying to the PCs... >5. Is there an FAQ anywhere? If so, is it available by email request? (I can >read Web pages locally, I just don't have regular access to the Web.) Head to either my page or INC2 (I'll give my URL 'cause I know it...): http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles and there's a link to the FAQ. If you want it in Email, tell me in email, and I'll copy and send it to you. >6. Is in_nomine_digest-l simply an unedited digest of the stuff in this >list? I believe so, yes. >Finally, I've really enjoyed the stuff on the list, especially ArchAngel >Beth's Know Your articles. Some of these are quite amusing. Thanks! The whole thing ought to be going up shortly on my INC. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 18:27:54 -0400 (EDT) From: "Paul F. Strack" Subject: New Angels (Re: Laurence (Re: IN> 5 elephants, er elements... On Wed, 7 May 1997, Manuel Rivera wrote: > I have a question: where do new angels/demons come from? Was there a > fixed number in the beginning and both sides have lost some due to > attrition? It seems that Hell can "recruit" demons, but from where (other > than fallen angels). How does Heaven recruit/make/get new angels? Just > wondering... The rules give the impression that it is possible to "make" new angels and demons. This is apparently fairly common in Hell, but rarer in Heaven. Usually new demons are pretty weak, and have to claw their way of the infernal ladder. It seems that angels are created in at all sorts of different levels of power. The exact mechanism of creation is a mystery - probably kept that way by the powers that be. The only thing that is certain is that it requires tremendous power, at least that of an Archangel or Demon Prince. Other possible sources of angels and demons: * Converts from the other side. * Other spiritual converts. One premise of the game that I'm running is that the Old Pagan Gods had spiritual servants as well. When the Old Gods were defeated by Heaven, some of their followers were destroyed, some followed their masters into exile, but a good number chose to join either Heaven or Hell. This mirrors the process whereby invading religions either "demonize" or absorb old dieties. Some of these spirits joined with Hell against their Heavenly enemies. Not all of them are happy with Hell, but they hate Heaven far more. Others realized that they could continue their work under the auspices of Heaven, and Heaven welcomed such spirits with open arms. These spirits where typically "sainted", transformed into angels or whatever. A good example of the process is Brigid, once a Celtic Godess, now a Christian saint. Paul Paul Strack | Madness takes its toll. pfstrack@math.unc.edu | Please have exact change. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ World of Darkness Page - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/wod.html In Nomine Page: INC2 - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/innom/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 18:28:49 -0400 (EDT) From: "Paul F. Strack" Subject: IN> The Goals of Heaven Here's some more stuff I've written trying to get a handle on Celestial politics. - -- The Goals of Heaven Welcome, my child. Please be seated. I wish that I could answer all your question, but unfortunately, even exalted spirits such as ourselves do not know all the Mysteries. Why are we here? The brief answer is simple. We are the shepherds of humanity. As the pastor to his flock, so are we to men. What is it we wish men to do? Ah, now that is why things are so complicated. The Highest wishes men to be good. Not simply to *do* good, but to *be* good. Actions alone are meaningless. One have the proper frame of mind to truly please the Divine. Humans have many names for this mental state: Faith, Grace, Enlightenment. They must strive all their life to achieve it, or perhaps even for several lives. That is why we cannot reveal ourselves to men and give them God's word ourselves. If we did so, they would be doing good to please us. For Grace, they must do good because they know it is the right thing to do. Yes, we have been more open in the past, but times were simpler then. Now humanity is an collage conflicting cultures and urges of ever increasing complexity. More subtle means are needed, lest men mistake angels for their goal and forget about the Highest. Thus we move silently among them, encouraging them where we may; a hint there, a small suggestion here, a few good deeds for those who need them most desperately. We can only advise and cajole, never command or proclaim. We must always respect their fragile free wills, giving them enough guidance to come to the Path while leaving the ultimate choice of walking that Path to them. Oh it is marvelously difficult. It is a razor's edge we balance on. There are those among us who say we should not be here at all, that even our slight interference is too much. I can see that you are frustrated. There are easier ways available to be sure. Simply make your way Downwards and they can give you all sorts of easy answers. Are you ready yet to pay the price? I am glad to see that you are not. If for no other reason, the presence of Diabolicals forces us to intervene. They would never leave mankind alone, so neither can we. We must guard mankind against this unseen foe, and be ever vigilant to foil the plans of the Adversary. You shall meet the demons soon enough. They are not all utterly evil. Some of them can be decent enough at times, but never believe anything they say. They are deluded fools, having spurned the greatest gift ever given. Their selfish goals are designed to draw men away from God and into their fiendish clutches. There you have it, the reasons that we are here. We battle against our Fallen brethren, protecting the innocents from their scheming. We must gently prod humanity back towards the divine. It's not always obvious what is the best thing to do. Sometimes the salvation of a single soul can be more important that the doom of an entire nation. Not all angels agree on methods we should use. I regret to say that at times we bicker as fervently as demons. The Highest has given us only guidelines, and like men, we must muddle on as best we can to interpret Her Word. No, this is not some sort of joke on the part of the Highest. You are perhaps too young to remember. She has told all we needed to know when we were in the higher reaches of the Empyrium. To fulfill those task we had to descend to the mortal plane, however. The corporeal realm is a place of limits. By necessity we must assume some of the restrictions of living men. It is impossible for the finite mind to wrap itself around the concepts that are Her Word. The upper spheres are now but a half remember dream to us, and we must rely on our own judgment. Humans are even more confused than we are. Never believe that you are better than them, though. Mankind, with its freedom, is capable of heights and depths unknown to Celestials. They are capable of deeds so vile that it would chill the soul of Shedim. Yet they are also capable of acts of such sweet charity that it would make the a Cherubim weep. It is precisely because they have limits that they can do so much more. And when they have fulfilled their potential, they ascend to heights of Heaven denied even to us. It is they, in the end, that will determine the outcome of the War. Paul Strack | Madness takes its toll. pfstrack@math.unc.edu | Please have exact change. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ World of Darkness Page - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/wod.html In Nomine Page: INC2 - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/innom/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 18:29:23 -0400 (EDT) From: "Paul F. Strack" Subject: IN> The Goals of Hell Here's the other half of the argument. - -- The Goals of Hell Well bucko, congratulations on finally making it out of Hell. Earth is where the action is, and if you'll give me a little time, I'll show you the ropes. Despite what you may have heard, here is where the real War is fought, and this is the only place the matters. Why is the world so important? It's not the world, but people that make the difference. All those beautiful souls, and all the Essence that they generate. This War is about power, pure and simple. That power is Essence and the source is souls. To be sure, demonic souls generate Essence as well, but that's not enough when you're the underdog. We need every edge against Heaven that we can get. When we have enough power we can finally take the battle back to the other side's home ground, and win this once and for all. So, gaining souls is your major concern. Happily enough, humans are more naturally inclined towards us than they are toward the other side. The deal we offer them is simple: revel in life, do what you want and we'll take care of the hereafter. It's not enough that humans simply turn away from the Divine, though. Soul that are neither too good or too bad are simply recycled. You've got them be dramatic, go all out and really take advantage of all their options. We at least offer something in return for their compliance. Little deals, favors and pleasures are our forte. The angels give them nothing but some vague promise of eternal bliss. Don't believe what the angels say - they're playing the same game. They want souls and their power just as badly as we do. God is a bit more touchy about it than we are, though. The greedy bastard wants them all for Herself, and doesn't share the power with angels. Fine by us, of course; we get to use the power in the War, while the angels just scrape by. That is ultimately what God's after. She wants to draw all the souls in the world into the upper reaches of Heaven and into union with herself. She calls it Bliss, but we know better. She gives you Eternity, but only as a tiny part of herself. Union with the Divine means death of the mind, and personally, I like being me. Every soul she draws back into herself is one less soul in the world, and in the end she'll take us all. That's what we're fighting for: the right of the individual to exist. God doesn't fully understand what she did when she gave us Free Will. It's not something that we will ever give up willingly. Sure, I'll admit, some of our methods are a bit questionable. Most of the things we encourage humans to do are downright unpleasant. We have no choice, though - Heaven has stacked the deck against us. Heaven claims all the positive energy generated by mankind. We're left with the dregs. So be it. If the torture of mankind is the only means we have to defeat Heaven we'll take it. In the end men will thank us; even a life of torment is better than the void. If you have any doubt, just watch how enthusiastically humans imitate us, and even expand on our ideas. It's unfortunate that the work we do goes to some demons' heads. We bicker a lot more than is really necessary. Still, conflict is in the nature of the world, and the struggle keeps us strong and alert. Each Prince strives against the others, and most of the time the end results are a harmless exercise, like training almost. Every now and again some lesser demon gets ices, but they probably wouldn't have amounted to much anyway. When things get really out of hand, you can rely on the big S to step in and sort it all out. The angels, over course, can't see the forest for the trees. They think that the means we use are all there is to our message. What deluded fools. They believe that being devoured by God is the best possible thing that can happen to you. Most of them are saps, not too difficult to work around. Some of them can be dangerous fanatics, though, and those you need to avoid. Don't think that you can take them - they're tougher than they look. A few of them have doubts of their own. Keep your eyes peeled for those angels. Every halo we can bring over to our set moves that much closer to victory - not to mention getting you a nice little bonus from the top. Is victory possible, you ask? You'd best not let Asmodeus hear of such defeatist talk. Still, it's a question I've asked myself, and here is what I've come up with. You see, God could have stop the fall from the very start. That's what being omnipotent means. When we rebelled, the loyal angels fought against us, but God Herself didn't lift a finger. Maybe, in Her inner heart, She knows that we're right. Maybe She even *wants* us to win. All I know is that for this entire War, the angels do all the work and She does nothing. And that's good enough for me. Paul Strack | Madness takes its toll. pfstrack@math.unc.edu | Please have exact change. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ World of Darkness Page - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/wod.html In Nomine Page: INC2 - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/innom/ ------------------------------ Date: 07 May 97 18:38:21 EDT From: Moriah - Steve Jackson Games <73407.515@compuserve.com> Subject: IN> Inflamations >From: "Robert Coon" >Subject: Re: IN> Re: Making GURPS Popular(Not Blasphemous) > >And having an RC editor is going to inflame a LOT of fundamentalists... I don't inflame... I cause fundamentalists to break out in hives. Peace, Moriah Royal Crown Editor ------------------------------ Date: 07 May 97 18:38:18 EDT From: Moriah - Steve Jackson Games <73407.515@CompuServe.COM> Subject: IN> SPAM EMAIL... BAD. >From: Lizard >Subject: Re: IN> Special request from the AA of Children (fwd) > >Be paranoid, suspiscious, callous... OK, since you asked for it... ;> Also refrain from requoting the entire damned spam when complaining about spam. Peace, Moriah ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 19:04:29 -0700 From: "Manuel Rivera" Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #155 I'd like some angels who support Hinduism or Buddhism, actually... Mick - ---------- > From: ixdragons@worldnet.att.net > To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #155 > Date: Wednesday, May 07, 1997 2:11 PM > > Derek Patton Pearcy wrote: > > > > Somebody on the list wrote: > > > > Michael voluntarily stepped down as the leader of the Host, elevating his most > > favored lieutenant - Laurence - to replace him. > > > > ---------- > > > > This is partially right; you're missing a step. Michael stepped aside to > > let Uriel, Archangel of Purity, take his place. When Uriel ascended to > > higher realms of Heaven, Laurence took his place. This irked Khalid, > > another of Uriel's Servitors, who felt he truly deserved the generalship of > > Heaven's armies. He decided to back the Moslems (founded by Gabriel, > > long-time political enemy of both Dominic and Uriel), becoming the > > Archangel of Faith and eventually the protector of Islam. Needless to say, > > this irked Laurence, protector of Christianity, especially during all that > > uncomfortable Crusade business. > > > > Michael was a Seraphim, while Laurence is a Malakite -- this is why Michael > > could be questioned, while Laurence's purity has never been doubted. > > Malakim, who cannot Fall, are beyond scrutiny (except by Dominic's angels, > > who're always on the lookout for extremely dissonant Malakim). > > > > Just catching up as I fly through, > > > > Derek > > As Salamu Alaikum, > Muslims not Moslems. Islam was not founded by Gabriel but revealed > through him. Laurence PERSONALLY protects Christianity; i.e.' it is not > his job, he does it because he wants to as a "collateral duty". > Additionally I'd like to add that Dominic's inquest of Gabriel and > Micheal is/was sparked by his personal preference for Christianity by > which he measures the truth. Jews, Christians and Muslims can and do lay > claim to the saim heritage, but they each find each other's beliefs > equally heretical. > IMHO it seems that alot of people are posting distinctly Christian > points of view, which in and of itself pose no problem. My only > complaint is that I would appreciate some research into any faith before > including it in your point of view. I am a Muslim so Islam of course is > important to me. If I used the Waco insident as a reference for > Christianity I'm sure I'd regret it. I must also include that I am glad > so far that no one has generalized Muslims as terrorists. > > > ixDragons sends... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 19:30:05 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Re: What Do Djinn Know? At 5:06 PM -0400 5/7/97, gibsonc@nku.edu wrote: >does a djinn of kronos know automatically if a person if attuned to a >celestial? I'd say no. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 19:29:27 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Where Angels Come From At 4:39 PM -0700 5/7/97, Manuel Rivera wrote: > I have a question: where do new angels/demons come from? Was there a >fixed number in the beginning and both sides have lost some due to >attrition? It seems that Hell can "recruit" demons, but from where (other >than fallen angels). How does Heaven recruit/make/get new angels? Just >wondering... Canon: (p. 108, first paragraph) Superiors create them, on both sides. Opinion: This is perhaps a non-trivial task, as Hell chose to create lots of low-Force ones... Canon: (p. 191; errata, 7 forces, not 9, to "grow up") Relievers and Imps/Gremlins grow up to be angels/demons. Opinion: I think they are the celestial-born offspring of celestials in the celestial realm... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 17:33:00 -0700 From: "Christopher Jackson" Subject: IN>Archangel of Death This is something that gets bandied back and forth about every week, so I thought I'd toss in my two cents. (Well, cent, maybe. Halfpence, at least.) In my campaign, there is an Archangel of Death, but she operates out of one of the higher levels of heaven, and doesn't have any servitors. Or at least none that the players are ever likely to meet. She usually appears as this cute Goth chick . . . ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 19:30:25 -0500 From: Mage Bob Subject: IN> PBEM Hi all, I would be interested in running a PBEM In Nomine game, or at least giving it a try, HOWEVER I will not have E-mail for a few days/weeks after I leave school, and thus have not volenteered, but I figured I'd let everyone know I was willing, and that they will just have to wait a bit for it to get going, as not only is the not having E-mail for a bit a problem but I am also busy setting up a live action Vampire game for 25 - 30 persons, as well as preparing for a hopefully awesome session of SLA Industries for GenCon, thus what I'm saying is that I will run one, if people want ME to, and that if others jump in front of me to run one, that is fine and in that case I'll want to play, so just wait a bit and I'll post when I'm ready to go... PS: LOOK MA, 8 lines, one sentence, three periods... ~Mage Bob, he who neglects to breath when he types ~Mage Bob & - ----------> http://larch10.res.iastate.edu Nobody ever says, "I wan`ta write driver code when I grow up." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 17:28:39 -0700 From: "Christopher Jackson" Subject: IN>the angel of literary criticism I made Benjamin the angel of Literary Criticism an Elohite of Yves, if anyone who cares doesn't really remember. Someone else (I'm sorry, I've already forgotten who) suggested a seraph of Dominic. Dominic - yes, absolutely, I'm smacking myself on my virtual forehead right now for not having thought of that. And the Demon of Deconstruction really should have been a servant of Asmodeus. Seraph - hmmm. I'm probably letting my personal prejudices as an English major shine through here, but I'm not sure. Seraphim are attuned to truth, and literary criticism as it is nowadays is just so damned (pardon the expression) subjective. It seems to deal more with impressions than with any kind of truth. On the other hand, this is the *angel* of criticism, so I suppose he's looking for deeper truths. I think for my campaign, I'll stick with an Elohite, but it is a great suggestion. Christopher B. Jackson (who is both surprised and pleased that someone actually read his adventure seed. Looking back, I think it has kind of a narrow focus.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 16:29:21 -0700 From: tzbarasc@lasierra.edu (Tony Zbaraschuk) Subject: IN> Re: vessels, seeds, & children Cymrys@aol.com wrote: >Vessels are not normal human bodies; viz, no need to eat, sleep, etc. >Presumably, therefore, their internal arrangement is different to that of a >normal human. Ergo, they probably don't have the capability for reproduction, >since that would not be deemed a necessary function of a celestial's vessel >(certain demons aside, the whole Son of Satan thing is an old shtick). According to Aquinas, demons (at least) aren't fertile on their own. A demon who wants to beget a child has to assume succubus form, "visit" a male, collect the semen, turn itself into an incubus, and then go find some woman to knock up... (Possibly altering the stuff on the way). Were I GMing, I would rule that celestial vessels are *not* inter-fertile with humans (at least, not as a general rule), because they aren't real bodies, just puppet-forms adopted to interact with the Symphony's corporeal parts. Full incarnation is something angels can't really achieve on their own (though God can, at least according to orthodox Christian theology.) OTOH, the Grigori seem to have managed it *somehow*. Possibly this is dependent on the level of your Role (roll d666; if you get less than your Role, you can be fertile with humans). Possibly they were ... helped ... by someone. Perhaps an Archangel can create a vessel capable of fertility. Maybe some of the refugees in the Marches know how (remember all those folks running around in Greek mythology). Perhaps celestials *used* to be able to become fertile with humans, but God (or the Seraphim Council) tightened the rules a bit after the Grigori went wild. As to celestials being interfertile with each other -- probably they are; possibly only within their Choir/Band (avoids all those annoying questions about how half-Malakim/half-Mercurians manage to survive, and what they would be like). Among the angels, it's probably something that requires complete willingness on both sides; among the demons, it probably doesn't. New celestials have to come from somewhere -- then again, who says it has to be the same way as humans do it? Maybe they have to reproduce in triads? Or singly? Or in groups of six hundred or so? Tony Z Special Collections Librarian & Archivist E-mail: tzbarasc@lasierra.edu La Sierra University Et vocavit Deus, "Fiat lux!" ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 97 18:47 CDT From: Christian Ritchie Subject: Re[2]: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #155 >As Salamu Alaikum, Islam was not founded by Gabriel but revealed :through him. Laurence PERSONALLY protects Christianity; i.e.' it is not :his job, he does it because he wants to as a "collateral duty". Additionally I'd like to add that Dominic's inquest of Gabriel and :Micheal is/was sparked by his personal preference for Christianity by :which he measures the truth. Jews, Christians and Muslims can and do lay :claim to the saim heritage, but they each find each other's beliefs :equally heretical. IMHO it seems that alot of people are posting distinctly Christian :points of view, which in and of itself pose no problem. My only :complaint is that I would appreciate some research into any faith before :including it in your point of view. I am a Muslim so Islam of course is :important to me. If I used the Waco insident as a reference for :Christianity I'm sure I'd regret it. I must also include that I am glad :so far that no one has generalized Muslims as terrorists. :ixDragons sends... Muslims are terrorists and Christians are Wac(k)os...;) *Xian* "Amirose, Angel of Suffering" ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 97 19:01 CDT From: Christian Ritchie Subject: Re[2]: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #155 - --body-part-boundary-1 - ---------------------------- Forwarded with Changes --------------------------- From: Date: 5/7/97 2:42PM To: Subject: Re[2]: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #155 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - --body-part-boundary-1 - --body-part-boundary-1 IMHO, the picture of Eli, and knowing the nature of demons, is those people Nybbas most feels are a threat to him. Other demons, this is no secret, but Eli. Eli holds a special place of contempt and fear in Nybass' heart. Eli, Archangel of Creation, of creativity, of selfthought. Paint a picture, write a song, read a book. These are Eli's gifts to man. This is the enemy of everything Nybbas seeks to create. Eli, IMHO, is going to be, in Gods eyes, the salvation of man and angel alike. We shall see. *Christian* >>>You ever looked at the Tv screens in the picture of Nybbas, Prince of >>>the media? It has a few Demon Princes and one extra person. :) >> >>Yep, Eli. Noticed this a while back.... wonder why? > >Either it's misinformation to incite Dominic and his followers (which I >would not put past any of Satan's Princes, much less Nybbas) or Eli is >in a bad way... Check out some of the other screens -- some of them are enemies of Nybbas. So Eli's being there may not say very much. Then again, you never really know what's going on with Eli.... - ---Walter - --body-part-boundary-1-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 20:19:23 -0400 (EDT) From: gibsonc@nku.edu Subject: Re: IN> Vessels, sex, and children can celestials and/or remnants get drunk? be sedated? etc? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 20:49:47 -0400 (EDT) From: gibsonc@nku.edu Subject: [none] hey thanxs for all the input toeveryone out there. i just got thru running a game based on the mist by steven king, its a pretty cool game setting. i set it up where vapula and beleth used the "arrowhead" project and opened a portal to allow nightmare creatures to escape into the corporeal realm. our heros were caught in the mist with the other book characters. it was fun and horrifying. they survived and kept some others who died in the book alive, but they couldn't stop the mist or figure out what happened. my input, jahon ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #157 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. 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