From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon May 12 18:59:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA06947 for ; Mon, 12 May 1997 18:59:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA02911 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 12 May 1997 17:24:54 -0500 Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 17:24:54 -0500 Message-Id: <199705122224.RAA02911@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #165 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, May 12 1997 Volume 01 : Number 165 In this digest: Re: IN> Copyright queries IN> Saints and angels? IN> Islam and IN Re: IN> Celestial Disturbances Re: IN> Saints and angels? Re: IN> Music threads Re: IN> Know Your Enemies' Music Re: IN> Archangel of Death : Susan of Sto Helit Re: IN> Islam and IN Re: Re[2]: IN> Demons Smoking... Re: IN>Archangel of Death Re: IN> In Nomine Mood Music Re: IN> List FAQ revised [none] Re: IN> In Nomine Mood & Re: IN> Celestial Disturbances IN>Death, death, death and death. [none] [none] IN> Various Items Re: IN>Death, death, death and death. IN> Immediate aftermath of the Fall; the law of threes Re: IN> In Nomine Mood Music [none] Re: IN> Some questions [none] Re: IN> Immediate aftermath of the Fall; the law of threes Re: IN> Immediate aftermath of the Fall; the law of threes IN> Re: your mail Re: IN> Immediate aftermath of the Fall; the law of threes Re: IN> Celestial Disturbances ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 01:33:37 -0400 (EDT) From: "Paul F. Strack" Subject: Re: IN> Copyright queries On Mon, 12 May 1997, Kurt White wrote: > If this is a dud question, just flame me and let me know, but.... > > I've read the FAQ, and I'm not sure where I stand using other peoples > creations as NPCs in a game. For example, say I want the PCs to journey to > Hell, where they will discover Ralph, Demon Prince of Apathy. Do I need to > get the permission of the characters creator, or is there an implied > permission in posting to the mailing list? I'd like to use some of the Joe > Demons, but don't want to tread on any toes. So long as you (a) don't claim that they are your own creations and (b) don't publish them for profit, you should be safe. Crediting the original author is a nice touch, but probably not that important if you are just using them in your onw game. I for one would be flattered if you used my stuff in a game. > PS - do Shedim of Asmodeus get the 12 points to spend on a role, or should > they use the 12 points to get skills that would enable them to emulate a role > while in a host? Is there a canon answer to this? So far as I can tell, Shedim of Asmodeus are just SOL. Here's a cool suggestion, though: they automatically adopted the role of their host, at the level they can afford with 12 points. That is, hosts with status 4 or less would be level 6 roles, those with Stat 5 or 6 would be level 4 roles. Not even remotely supported by the rules, and probably too powerful, but I like the idea. Paul Paul Strack | Madness takes its toll. pfstrack@math.unc.edu | Please have exact change. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ World of Darkness Page - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/wod.html In Nomine Page: INC2 - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/innom/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 12:44:23 +0100 From: nsm1@ukc.ac.uk Subject: IN> Saints and angels? Hello everyone, First up I'd like to say that this list is great - I've already had a huge number of questions answered simply by lurking for a couple of days. Secondly, am I the only Brit on this list? Are there other UK based IN players/GMs out there? Thirdly: >John Karakash wrote: >> It's canon that human souls and angelic souls are >> essentially different. One cannot become the other, so anyone >> that is human can't become an angel. Is there a canon on the souls of Saints? Yes, OK one could say that Saints are inherently human and one would (as I understand it) ascribe all Saints in years past as having been Soldiers of God. But then, seeing as the souls of Soldiers of God are somehow celestially tainted, you have to ask yourself: where does the soul of someone like this lie with respect to celestial and mundane souls? Are they mundane souls? Are they on their way to becoming celestial souls? Someweher in between then? Naveed ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 13:02:33 +0100 From: nsm1@ukc.ac.uk Subject: IN> Islam and IN Hi all, At the risk of reliving the earlier discourse on religious bias, I wonder if anyone had any pointers for a one off I was planning to run in the near future. Basically it's an adaptation of a "Noun: The Gerund" game I ran set in Northern Marocco (modern day). In particular I was wondering how best I could make use of the setting, especially in a religious sense, (I've already considered tethers in mosques and what have you). Any ideas/suggestions welcome, Naveed ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 12:56:01 +0100 From: nsm1@ukc.ac.uk Subject: Re: IN> Celestial Disturbances >Celestial Disturbances Excellent work Paul! OK - so this covers disturbances that are localised e.g. corporeal disturbances such as explosions. What about much more non-localised effects. Let's say a celestial makes, inadvertently orotherwise, a difference in the world's stock exchanges initiated by what was otherwise a small exchange which on its own caused no disturbance. What if a mundane was to have caused that change himself? More importantly how would you measure such a disturbance? Or say a piece of graffiti left which inspires someone to write a best selling Self Help book? I can see a potential for GMs behaving really really cruelly towards PCs that they don't like simply picking up on small insignifcant details and magnifying their effetc throughtime. [You know when you got into the car and drove off for that showdown with the Angel of Small Mercies...well the little gust of wind you set started off sent a little piece of paper flying into Mrs Mayhew's garden on No. 42 Clarisse Avenue, Northolt, which subsequently became the foundation of a fifteen year long legal battle between her and Ealing council, culminating in the dramatic landmark McFirble decision to award all householders significant damages in all cases where council material was found to litter Geranium beds...] Naveed ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 08:19:22 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: Re: IN> Saints and angels? On May 12, 12:44pm, nsm1@ukc.ac.uk wrote: > Subject: IN> Saints and angels? > Hello everyone, > > First up I'd like to say that this list is great - I've already had a > huge number of questions answered simply by lurking for a couple of days. > > Secondly, am I the only Brit on this list? Are there other UK based IN > players/GMs out there? > > Thirdly: > > >John Karakash wrote: > >> It's canon that human souls and angelic souls are > >> essentially different. One cannot become the other, so anyone > >> that is human can't become an angel. > > Is there a canon on the souls of Saints? Saints are very advanced humans, but humans nonetheless. > Are they mundane souls? Are they on their way to becoming celestial > souls? Someweher in between then? A saint's soul cannot become an angelic soul, there is no 'in-between' state. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 07:53:39 -0500 (CDT) From: Austin George Loomis Subject: Re: IN> Music threads [Like I said last time, I only read the digests off the web, so for all I know, any or all of these questions has already been answered. But here goes anyway...] In the "IN> Know Your Enemies' Music" thread, different people were wondering who did two different songs (though I can't remember the names of the people asking). For the record, "Dream Warriors" (I'm pretty sure the title was actually plural, not singular as the querent had it) was by Dokken, and "Dream Police" (one of my personal favorite songs) was by Cheap Trick. In the "IN> In Nomine Mood Music" thread, somebody was trying to remember both title and artist for the song containing the lyric "No, we're never gonna survive...unless...we get a little crazy." That song is called "Crazy," and it's by Seal. Hope this helps, Auguste, Kyriotate of Eli in service to Blandine (stats to follow when the player gets the Book) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 09:17:18 -0600 (CST) From: "The Incredibly Unremarkable Cliffy Q. Scrimshaw" Subject: Re: IN> Know Your Enemies' Music On Sun, 11 May 1997, Bill Sier wrote: > "Money" by Pink Floyd > (I'm seeing a pattern, here...) good choice.. love that funky 7/4 time signature.. > "Turn, Turn, Turn" by [somebody] seems appropriate that's by the Byrds, and I think it fits better with Yves. matt s. "Life is like a yo-yo: .-. it has its ups and downs, __ __| | plus a few loops now & then." \ V / (() --Matt, a.k.a. CliffyQS@Earthling.net |_| ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 10:30:42 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Archangel of Death : Susan of Sto Helit Adam Canning wrote: "4 The DEATH of Rats : An independent part of DEATH that separated off and never rejoined. Presumed to be a ... skeletal? Flea in a Cloak with a Scythe." I think you meant to introduce this as "4 The DEATH of Fleas." Both the Death of Rats and the Death of Fleas appear in "Reaper Man," in which we also see the "New Death" you listed below. It might be of interest to IN readers that this Death is ONLY the Death of Discworld. When he was accused of taking too personal an interest in people -- and, in generaly, in getting too much like a person -- by the Reality Auditors, he was laid off by Azrael. Azrael is presented as the universal Angel of Death, in the gleam of whose eyes galaxies collide and die. When Death the personification got laid off, the abandonned psychic residues and belief-power sloshed around and congealed into numerous species-specific Deaths, such as a Death of Trees (manifesting only as the sound of an axe) and the Death of Mayflies (manifesting as a big black trout). These were eventually resorbed when there was once more a unified personification of Death, but Rat and Flea held out, having traveled faster down the personality track than the others. "6 The New DEATH : a skeleton in a robe driving a combine harvester. Supplied by the Auditors of the universe to replace DEATH because he cares about people." Trivial correction: As I recall, the combine harvester animated by itself, and the New Death rode a skeletal horse, which Old Death considered a piece of unprofessional dramatism. Also, I think the New Death was more an amorphous figure of smoke, wearing a crown. "Pratchits disc world has the other horsemen of the appocalypse as well. They come round to deaths villa [in the Dreamlands?] every so often to play cards." The Four Horsemen take an even more central role in "Good Omens," which Pratchett co-authored with Neil Gaiman. The other three Horsemen -- Famine, Pestilence, and War -- somewhat resemble the Endless of Gaiman's "Sandman" series, while Death in this book resembles Death of Discworld, RIGHT DOWN TO SPEAKING IN REVERB CAPITALS, though he is less approachable. They could still be the same character in different moods. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 11:28:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: Re: IN> Islam and IN > > At the risk of reliving the earlier discourse on religious bias, I > wonder if anyone had any pointers for a one off I was planning to run > in the near future. > > Basically it's an adaptation of a "Noun: The Gerund" game I ran set in > Northern Marocco (modern day). Interesting setting! I like it! > > In particular I was wondering how best I could make use of the > setting, especially in a religious sense, (I've already considered > tethers in mosques and what have you). > > Any ideas/suggestions welcome, > A strong Gabriel presence wouldn't be bad, especially if there was some tension between her servants and angels from the west who are more used to supporting religion in Christian form. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 11:36:00 -0400 From: corey@cfanet.com Subject: Re: Re[2]: IN> Demons Smoking... > Heeeeeyyy, that brings up a thought. Since cigarettes >are _meant_ to be burned, how much disturbance does that cause? >(This is non-canon rambling, btw, folks.) Would exploding >a grenade (and hurting nothing else) cause disturbance? I mean, >it was _meant_ to be exploded even if the grenade itself took >a heapload of damage from being triggered. Does 'regular use' >of some objects include destroying them thereby not generating >noise? Would a roomful of Celestials at Pizza Hut masticate >enough Body Hits of food to make noise? ;) > It doesn't make a difference at all if it was meant to be burned, blown up or whatever. What does make a difference is that it would not have been blown up then and there, and would have been done by a different person. Which could have changed the face of reality, For example: A terrorist is going to blow up a federal building and plants a car bomb on the street. At the same time some where else in the city a demon is running from a group of angels working for Novalis who want his blood all over their hands. Just by chance the demon takes a left turn at a street, running down past the federal building. Looking over his shoulder he sees a car with the keys still in the ignition! Hopping in the car he drives down the street about 50 yards until with a loud clapping boom and spinning flames the car blows up, completely destroying a small flower shop along the side of the rode. Novalis will not be pleased. My point is this. Even though the bomb was meant to explode, and yes, the car was made to be driven. The actions of the demon and the angels changed the history of the world for all time. Ironically, the demon save many lives of the people inside the building, which would not have happened. He also might have changed the Fate of the man who put the bomb there. These actions affect much more than he was aware of. Even as he ran down the street, he was displacing the air that would have been there. ____________________________________________________________________________ ________ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 10:40:46 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: Re: IN>Archangel of Death On Fri, 9 May 1997, Brion K. Lienhart wrote: > I knew that, I was talking about Terry Pratchett's Death. Read _Mort_, _Reaper > Man_ and _Soul Music_. When Gaiman and Pratchett collaborated on _Good Omens_ > they used Terry's version of Death, not Neal's. Susan and her "Grandfather" also appear in Hogfather. Shadowcat &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& Don't pay the ferryman" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 97 11:53 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Mood Music Another good one is Vangelis' album "Heaven and Hell", of course. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 97 11:50 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> List FAQ revised >Well, If you're going to ask a Seraph of Annoying and Technical Little Details, >the official archivist for the list would have to be majordomo@io.com, since >it maintains the list archives automagically... :) There's the *list* archivist and the *SJGames* IN archivist. Majordomo is the former, Elizabeth is the latter. - ---Walter (Seraph of Annoying Little Details, whose Rite is Nitpicking....) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 13:04:21 -0400 (EDT) From: gibsonc@nku.edu Subject: [none] what happens to a human who loses her celestial forces? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 12:54:58 -0400 (EDT) From: gibsonc@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Mood & the song "to hell with the devil" was by stryper on the album of the same name. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 12:48:44 -0400 (EDT) From: "Paul F. Strack" Subject: Re: IN> Celestial Disturbances On Mon, 12 May 1997 nsm1@ukc.ac.uk wrote: > >Celestial Disturbances > > Excellent work Paul! Thank you. > OK - so this covers disturbances that are localised e.g. corporeal > disturbances such as explosions. > > What about much more non-localised effects. Let's say a celestial > makes, inadvertently orotherwise, a difference in the world's stock > exchanges initiated by what was otherwise a small exchange which on > its own caused no disturbance. I don't believe in non-localized disturbance. I think that an angel only causes a disturbance when they are the direct agent of change. If, for example, and angel made a knife, and that knife was later used by a human to kill someone, there would *not* be a disturbance. Actually, more truthfully, there would be a disturbance, but so small and indistinct that it would be nearly impossible to notice or understand. Paul Strack | Madness takes its toll. pfstrack@math.unc.edu | Please have exact change. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ World of Darkness Page - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/wod.html In Nomine Page: INC2 - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/innom/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 10:14:43 -0700 From: "Christopher Jackson" Subject: IN>Death, death, death and death. In the Russian language, unlike any other language that I'm remotely familiar with, the noun for "death" is feminine. As a result, Russian culture tends to picture death as a woman in white, still holding a scythe, and not a bad person at all once you get to know her. Christopher B. Jackson ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 13:00:31 -0400 (EDT) From: gibsonc@nku.edu Subject: [none] question to paul, aa beth, moriah, and anyone else with a sensible answer: most celestials are opposite, by this i mean balseraphs are easily understood to be fallen seraph, the djinn can truly be recognized as disgruntled or selfish cherubs, this works well with all but the impudites. the mercurians gain dissonance from hurting humans, so after a while they harm them until they fall, the boom they can no longer hurt them again. is it that they really get selfish and "love" humans the same way dogs love bacon? or is the fact they need to feed essence off humans a curse? i need a clarifcation on this please. jahon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 13:15:04 -0400 (EDT) From: gibsonc@nku.edu Subject: [none] what would you say the celestial to human ratio in most major cities at any given time would be? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 13:49:57 -0300 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: IN> Various Items >Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 11:18:08 -0700 >From: Hollis McCray >Subject: IN> Tune in, turn on, drop out! > >Here's a new bent on what Eli's up to: > >Eli's been given a job by the big G himself. He can't tell anyone, he can't >ask for help, but he *can* arrange things so that people help him without >knowing they help him. Heh. Here's one based on that... There are a couple dieties out there, outside of the whole dynamic, who want to contract God to create a world of their own, but they'd like to see His handiwork before making a commitment. So God's having Eli show them around the planet. Secretly of course. After all, what would the Angels think if they found out God was considering taking a job in another pantheon? >Date: Mon, 12 May 97 21:22:50 UT >From: "Kurt White" >Subject: IN> Copyright queries > >If this is a dud question, just flame me and let me know, but.... > >I've read the FAQ, and I'm not sure where I stand using other peoples >creations as NPCs in a game. For example, say I want the PCs to journey to >Hell, where they will discover Ralph, Demon Prince of Apathy. Do I need to >get the permission of the characters creator, or is there an implied >permission in posting to the mailing list? I'd like to use some of the Joe >Demons, but don't want to tread on any toes. The way I see it, posting the character to the mailing list gives implied consent for you to use said character in a private fashion, for instance in a game. After all, how are we supposed to know if you do? \|=) And now, some more Kyriotate questions... If a Kyriotate of Jordi is possessing a swarm, does he take dissonance per swarm he leaves in a worse state or per 30 insects he leaves in a worse state? (Per insect seems a little harsh.) Also, if a Kyriotate possesses an office worker for five days, and at the end of the five days, the office worker has lost his job, for not showing up for the last five days, is that Dissonant? Finally, a suggestion to the 'How to spot a celestial in a vessel" list, though not a particularly useful one... A Mercurian can figure out whether a person is a Demon by throwing a punch at him. If he gains no dissonance, then that person is obviously a Demon. Of course, there are some hefty drawbacks to this method. \|=) = http://www.io.com/~beholder ===================== nofori@pop3.utoled.edu === Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Kiernek, Calabite Captain of Fire, The Demon of Radiation. ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 14:05:43 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN>Death, death, death and death. Christopher Jackson wrote: > In the Russian language, unlike any other language that I'm > remotely familiar with, the noun for "death" is feminine. As a > result, Russian culture tends to picture death as a woman in white, > still holding a scythe, and not a bad person at all once you get to > know her. Nice to hear that, since we all WILL get to know her... Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 19:23:25 +0100 From: Sam Kington Subject: IN> Immediate aftermath of the Fall; the law of threes Hi, I've been wondering for quite a while about what happened in the immediate aftermath of the Fall, when Lucifer and a third of the existing Celestials Fell, and immediately found them on the wrong side of twice as many suddenly hostile Angels, and God to boot. Namely, why/how did the demons survive? (Obviously, ineffability can explain everything, and many GMs will want to stick with just that. But some may not; and in any case, it's useful to have some misinformation to throw to the players ;-) ) First possibility: paternalism ============================== The demons have succumbed to their selfish nature and Fallen; let us hope that they see the error of their ways. According to this interpretation, the angels avoided antagonising the demons, hoping they would rejoin them at some point. When the demons suddenly turned out to be as numerous and powerful as the angels, and started waging War, the angels were shocked. Heaven in turn took up the War (some of them with great gusto, some of them grudgingly). Second possibility: blindness ============================= The angels sneered at the sorry fallen lot, and assumed they'd stay Down. The more trigger-happy may have precipitated or encouraged either the original Fall (tricky) or, more likely, the subsequent rise in population - can't have a real fight if the forces are so unbalanced that the outcome is known from the start, after all. Third possibility: stalemate from the start =========================================== As soon as Lucifer and his cohorts Fell, the angels realised the true nature of their foe: War was inevitable, and no good sentiments could avoid it. However, they were in no position to stamp out the demons at once, because although 1/3rd of the angels had Fallen, a *further* 1/3rd had gone missing/been reallocated by God to other purposes as yet unclear. Thus the three forces - Heaven, Hell and Neutral - were almost exactly equally matched. I'm still toying with ideas of exactly what this third Neutral force could be. I'd certainly like to know how many Remnants there are - given that no Celestials really pay them much attention, I suspect no-one is counting them. There may turn out to be far fewer existing Remnants than you would have expected (certainly I would have expected the immediate aftermath of the Fall, in this world-view, to be particularly bloody until some sort of Cold War situation developed). Where have they gone? Maybe this third force. For that matter, outcasts and renegades would also be looking for some third party to turn to. Notice the predominance of the number three in In Nomine: * Three realms (Celestial, Ethereal, Corporeal) * Three forces * Three ranks of angel/demon: + Vassal, Friend, Master + Knight, Captain, Baron * Three types of undead (this is probably coincidence though) *Two* opposing sides? Surely not. (And yes, I do watch Babylon 5 before you ask.) Sam - -- There are *my* opinions, dammit, and let no-one say otherwise. Home page: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/ INWO Homebrew: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/cgi/illuminati Schizophrenia beats being alone. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 14:21:26 -0500 (CDT) From: Bill Sier Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine Mood Music On Sun, 11 May 1997, Gregory Littmann wrote: [snip] > David - "Everybody Must Get Stoned", Bob Dylan. This had better be a joke. ;P > Eli - "Beat It", Michael Jackson; "Where the Streets Have no Name", U2; > "Sittin' on the Dock at the Bay". "Change" by Blind Melon > Janus - That shoplifting song by Jane's Addiction. "Hey alright, Yeah > alright..." "Been Caught Stealin'", or something like that. > Jordi - "I'm an Ape Man", The Kinks; "Wooly Bully", ?; "Old McDonald", > Trad. "Sheep" by Pink Floyd > Marc - "I Like Choco Bars", Shonin Knife. "This Bud's For You" by Neal Young (I think), or maybe that would go better with Nybbas? - -- "When asked how a 17-year-old boy could have committed a crime that happened over two decades ago, a police spokesman said, quote: He's very clever." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 15:35:54 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: [none] On May 12, 1:15pm, gibsonc@nku.edu wrote: > Subject: > > > what would you say the celestial to human ratio in most major cities at > any given time would be? Depends on the campaign. I.E. as many as they GM thinks necessary. Cities differ in importance and circumstance so there wouldn't be a single ratio anyways. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 08:46:24 -0700 (PDT) From: driskill@d2.com (Hank Driskill) Subject: Re: IN> Some questions > Ok, maybe not the place, but I wrote a White Wolf-based Immortal: The > Gathering game, which introduced a new Discipline called Inter Arma for > Immortals. The second dot in this gave you the Conceal Blade power (sort of a > specialised Obfuscate), based on the fact that I've seen Duncan McLeod > (series) hide that katana in a leather biker jacket before now... Of course, in my version of the White Wolf Highlander rules, I just used the "Arcane" background. (Sword? I didn't see any sword...) It was easier than inventing a whole new power for it. +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ Hank Driskill Digital Domain Venice CA driskill@d2.com +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ "It's that kind of wooly-headed, liberal thinking that leads to being eaten." - Principal Snyder, "Buffy The Vampire Slayer" +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 15:35:00 -0400 From: "John Karakash - Lucent ASCC" Subject: [none] On May 12, 1:00pm, gibsonc@nku.edu wrote: > Subject: > question to paul, aa beth, moriah, and anyone else with a sensible answer: > > most celestials are opposite, by this i mean balseraphs are easily > understood to be fallen seraph, the djinn can truly be recognized as > disgruntled or selfish cherubs, this works well with all but the > impudites. the mercurians gain dissonance from hurting humans, so after a > while they harm them until they fall, the boom they can no longer hurt > them again. is it that they really get selfish and "love" humans the same > way dogs love bacon? or is the fact they need to feed essence off humans > a curse? i need a clarifcation on this please. Demons are not 'opposite' of angels. They are _twisted_ angels. Their former natures are warped and changed not necessarily 'reflected' into its exact mirror image. -john 'Archangel of Nee(d)ful Consistency' karakash- - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | "A fundamental principle of economics is that the | | more you tax something, the less you get of it. | | In this country we tax success most of all." | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 16:55:50 -0400 From: "Mark McKenzie" Subject: Re: IN> Immediate aftermath of the Fall; the law of threes Sam Kington wrote, in part: > > Hi, > > I've been wondering for quite a while about what happened in the > immediate aftermath of the Fall, when Lucifer and a third of the > existing Celestials Fell, and immediately found them on the wrong side > of twice as many suddenly hostile Angels, and God to boot. Namely, > why/how did the demons survive? > Maybe it's not enough for God to win; Lucifer has to admit defeat. Or, "if you kill him, he don't learn nothin!" It should have been relatively simple for God's armies to destroy the Fallen rather than simply eject them from Heaven; even if Hell's forces were stronger in power regardless of the relative size of each side, it would have been simpler still for God to unmake what he had made. But, God chose not to do this; He must have had a reason (He always does....) - -snip- > > First possibility: paternalism > ============================== - -snip- > Second possibility: blindness > ============================= - -snip- > Third possibility: stalemate from the start > =========================================== - -snip- Fourth possibility: leave the door open just in case your Children ever decide to come back home. Just a thought. - -- Mark McKenzie Editor, HandMade Games E-mail: markadv@kinekom.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 16:37:58 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Immediate aftermath of the Fall; the law of threes Your missing "third side" might be Maintenance -- those angels mostly busy with implementing natural law. ("What are YOU doing for the War effort, brother?" "Nothing." "Nothing?!" "Not unless you count making sure that gravity works properly in Greenland.") Eli, Novalis, Jordi, David, and other archangels unspecified might have huge organizations that can never show up in the War because they are busy making sure there is a battlefield. While these folk are usually metaphysical wallpaper and thus effectively invisible, they could crop up in interesting ways: - objecting to too many miracles (by EITHER side), violating natural law to a degree they cannot overlook - showing up to point out to the more martial angels that a more nihilistic faction of demons has given up on corrupting humanity and has decided to just snuff the planet by, say, unplugging photosynthesis, to which end they have kidnapped a very powerful but little-publicized servitor of Novalis - announcing that, whether anyone is ready or not, it is time to introduce a new (pick one): - pollinating insect - natural force (in addition to gravity, electromagnetics, nuclear) - intelligent life - ice age (and they come on faster than you expect) - asking for help because a consignment of new-made human souls has gone astray. (You didn't think human souls just *happened*, did you?) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 17:08:47 -0400 (EDT) From: "Paul F. Strack" Subject: IN> Re: your mail On Mon, 12 May 1997 gibsonc@nku.edu wrote: > most celestials are opposite, by this i mean balseraphs are easily > understood to be fallen seraph, the djinn can truly be recognized as > disgruntled or selfish cherubs, this works well with all but the > impudites. the mercurians gain dissonance from hurting humans, so after a > while they harm them until they fall, the boom they can no longer hurt > them again. is it that they really get selfish and "love" humans the same > way dogs love bacon? or is the fact they need to feed essence off humans > a curse? i need a clarifcation on this please. Demons and angels aren't necessarily opposites. Demons are simply darker versions of the angels they once were. Impudites, for example, can *harm* humans, just not kill them. They are, therefore, a bit more free than Mercurians. Djinn are the same way. Their resonance is a twisted version of the Cherubim. They no longer get dissonance when the attuned is harmed, unless they "accidentally" get too attached. See? Similar, but twisted. Paul Paul Strack | Madness takes its toll. pfstrack@math.unc.edu | Please have exact change. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ World of Darkness Page - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/wod.html In Nomine Page: INC2 - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/innom/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 16:56:43 -0400 (EDT) From: "Paul F. Strack" Subject: Re: IN> Immediate aftermath of the Fall; the law of threes On Mon, 12 May 1997, Sam Kington wrote: > I've been wondering for quite a while about what happened in the > immediate aftermath of the Fall, when Lucifer and a third of the > existing Celestials Fell, and immediately found them on the wrong side > of twice as many suddenly hostile Angels, and God to boot. Namely, > why/how did the demons survive? I'd like to suggest a three more possibilities: Ignorance It is quite possible that the Heavenly Host assumed that the defeated Fallen Angels were gone, perhaps even destroyed. In the "old days", the Celestial realms were much more crowded, with the mass active pagan gods and all. It was not immediately obvious when the surviving demons set themselves up in a new home. The demons, knowing nothing of this, devoted the first few centuries to fortifying Hell. Only then did they venture out to the Corporeal realms. By the time angels were aware of them again, the infernals were too entrenched to make an assault on Hell practical. Failed Punishment Hell was created as a prison for the Fallen. Who was to know that they would not only eventually escape, but to completely take it over as well. Part of the Plan It quite possible that God prevented the angels from pursuing the Fallen demons. Very likely he would have given no reason. Modern angels now wonder if the existence of Hell wasn't part of God's plan in the first place... Personally, I prefer a combination of the three, with God forbidding pursuit, most angels believing the Fallen host destroyed, and the few that knew better thinking Hell to be an inescapeable prison. Only much later did they learn of their mistake. Paul Strack | Madness takes its toll. pfstrack@math.unc.edu | Please have exact change. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ World of Darkness Page - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/wod.html In Nomine Page: INC2 - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/innom/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 21:30:55 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> Celestial Disturbances On Sun, 11 May 1997 19:35:10 -0400 (EDT), "Paul F. Strack" wrote: >Celestial Disturbances Thanks for drawing this issue to my attention. >Assume that the "average Celestial" listening for a disturbance has a >Perception of 6, and 3 Celestial Forces. I have mixed feelings about this simplification. I like the idea of simplifying since otherwise the GM potentially has to separately compute disturbance for each celestial in the scenario, or at least the one in each group with the highest combined celestial forces and perception. Further, most battles will be a series of increasingly strong disturbances: since the disturbance level determines basic range, the GM has to recalculate everything from scratch. I think for now, I'll use the standard rules. To do that while accounting for disturbances and not pausing the story while the GM computes each disturbance for each group, I've pre-computed the following table. (Well, my spreadsheet has.) For each disturbance level and each level of celestial forces (of the perceiver) two distances are given. In computing disturbance detection, each level of disturbance gives a +1 to perception, essentially increasing the range of the disturbance by the basic distance. The first distance is the par distance, the distance at which a celestial will roll his perception with no pluses or minuses. The second distance is the basic distance, the distance that will give a +1 or -1. To use the table, look at the row for the disturbance level and the column for the celestial forces of the character in question--in a group, you'll usually want to start with the character who has the highest celestial forces. The first, par, distance is the distance at which they'd make a normal perception roll. For each basic distance closer, they get +1; for each basic distance further away, they get -1. For example, a disturbance of 5 at 100 yards. Someone with 3 celestial forces has a par distance of 90 yards and a basic distance of 15 yards, so since 100 yards is between 90 and 90+15=105 yards, he rolls perception. Someone with 4 forces has a par distance of 120 yards and a basic distance of 20 yards, so since 100 yards is less than 120 yards by 20 yards, he rolls against perception+1. Someone with only 2 celestial forces would have a par distance of 60 yards and a basic distance of 10 yards, so to get to 100 yards is 60+4*10 yards, and he rolls perception-4. In looking at the table, you will notice that as the disturbance level goes up the basic distance becomes relatively small compared to the par distance, because the disturbance level has more and more effect. As a quick rule of thumb, if the par (first) distance is much less than the distance to the disturbance, the disturbance can't be heard; if the par distance is much greater, the disturbance will be automatically heard. PAR/BASIC DISTANCE (yd=yards, mi=miles, 1760 yards per mile) Distur- Celestial Forces bance 1 2 3 4 5 6 1 2yd/1yd 4yd/2yd 6yd/3yd 8yd/4yd 10yd/5yd 12yd/6yd 2 6yd/2yd 12yd/4yd 18yd/6yd 24yd/8yd 30yd/10yd 36yd/12yd 3 12yd/3yd 24yd/6yd 36yd/9yd 48yd/12yd 60yd/15yd 72yd/18yd 4 20yd/4yd 40yd/8yd 60yd/12yd 80yd/16yd 100yd/20yd 120yd/24yd 5 30yd/5yd 60yd/10yd 90yd/15yd 120yd/20yd 150yd/25yd 0.1mi/30yd 6 42yd/6yd 84yd/12yd 126yd/18yd 168yd/24yd 0.1mi/30yd 0.1mi/36yd 7 56yd/7yd 112yd/14yd 168yd/21yd 0.1mi/28yd 0.2mi/35yd 0.2mi/42yd 8 72yd/8yd 144yd/16yd 0.1mi/24yd 0.2mi/32yd 0.2mi/40yd 0.2mi/48yd 9 90yd/9yd 0.1mi/18yd 0.2mi/27yd 0.2mi/36yd 0.3mi/45yd 0.3mi/54yd 10 110yd/10yd 0.1mi/20yd 0.2mi/30yd 0.3mi/40yd 0.3mi/50yd 0.4mi/60yd 11 132yd/11yd 0.2mi/22yd 0.2mi/33yd 0.3mi/44yd 0.4mi/55yd 0.5mi/66yd 12 156yd/12yd 0.2mi/24yd 0.3mi/36yd 0.4mi/48yd 0.4mi/60yd 0.5mi/72yd 13 0.1mi/13yd 0.2mi/26yd 0.3mi/39yd 0.4mi/52yd 0.5mi/65yd 0.6mi/78yd 14 0.1mi/14yd 0.2mi/28yd 0.4mi/42yd 0.5mi/56yd 0.6mi/70yd 0.7mi/84yd 15 0.1mi/15yd 0.3mi/30yd 0.4mi/45yd 0.5mi/60yd 0.7mi/75yd 0.8mi/90yd 16 0.2mi/16yd 0.3mi/32yd 0.5mi/48yd 0.6mi/64yd 0.8mi/80yd 0.9mi/96yd 17 0.2mi/17yd 0.3mi/34yd 0.5mi/51yd 0.7mi/68yd 0.9mi/85yd 1.0mi/102yd 18 0.2mi/18yd 0.4mi/36yd 0.6mi/54yd 0.8mi/72yd 1.0mi/90yd 1.2mi/108yd 19 0.2mi/19yd 0.4mi/38yd 0.6mi/57yd 0.9mi/76yd 1.1mi/95yd 1.3mi/114yd 20 0.2mi/20yd 0.5mi/40yd 0.7mi/60yd 1.0mi/80yd 1.2mi/100yd 1.4mi/120yd 21 0.3mi/21yd 0.5mi/42yd 0.8mi/63yd 1.1mi/84yd 1.3mi/105yd 1.6mi/126yd 22 0.3mi/22yd 0.6mi/44yd 0.9mi/66yd 1.2mi/88yd 1.4mi/110yd 1.7mi/132yd 23 0.3mi/23yd 0.6mi/46yd 0.9mi/69yd 1.3mi/92yd 1.6mi/115yd 1.9mi/138yd 24 0.3mi/24yd 0.7mi/48yd 1.0mi/72yd 1.4mi/96yd 1.7mi/120yd 2.0mi/144yd 25 0.4mi/25yd 0.7mi/50yd 1.1mi/75yd 1.5mi/100yd 1.8mi/125yd 2.2mi/150yd 26 0.4mi/26yd 0.8mi/52yd 1.2mi/78yd 1.6mi/104yd 2.0mi/130yd 2.4mi/156yd 27 0.4mi/27yd 0.9mi/54yd 1.3mi/81yd 1.7mi/108yd 2.1mi/135yd 2.6mi/162yd 28 0.5mi/28yd 0.9mi/56yd 1.4mi/84yd 1.8mi/112yd 2.3mi/140yd 2.8mi/168yd 29 0.5mi/29yd 1.0mi/58yd 1.5mi/87yd 2.0mi/116yd 2.5mi/145yd 3.0mi/174yd 30 0.5mi/30yd 1.1mi/60yd 1.6mi/90yd 2.1mi/120yd 2.6mi/150yd 3.2mi/0.1mi 31 0.6mi/31yd 1.1mi/62yd 1.7mi/93yd 2.3mi/124yd 2.8mi/155yd 3.4mi/0.1mi 32 0.6mi/32yd 1.2mi/64yd 1.8mi/96yd 2.4mi/128yd 3.0mi/160yd 3.6mi/0.1mi 33 0.6mi/33yd 1.3mi/66yd 1.9mi/99yd 2.6mi/132yd 3.2mi/165yd 3.8mi/0.1mi 34 0.7mi/34yd 1.4mi/68yd 2.0mi/102yd 2.7mi/136yd 3.4mi/170yd 4.1mi/0.1mi 35 0.7mi/35yd 1.4mi/70yd 2.1mi/105yd 2.9mi/140yd 3.6mi/175yd 4.3mi/0.1mi 36 0.8mi/36yd 1.5mi/72yd 2.3mi/108yd 3.0mi/144yd 3.8mi/0.1mi 4.5mi/0.1mi 37 0.8mi/37yd 1.6mi/74yd 2.4mi/111yd 3.2mi/148yd 4.0mi/0.1mi 4.8mi/0.1mi 38 0.8mi/38yd 1.7mi/76yd 2.5mi/114yd 3.4mi/152yd 4.2mi/0.1mi 5.1mi/0.1mi 39 0.9mi/39yd 1.8mi/78yd 2.7mi/117yd 3.5mi/156yd 4.4mi/0.1mi 5.3mi/0.1mi 40 0.9mi/40yd 1.9mi/80yd 2.8mi/120yd 3.7mi/160yd 4.7mi/0.1mi 5.6mi/0.1mi 41 1.0mi/41yd 2.0mi/82yd 2.9mi/123yd 3.9mi/164yd 4.9mi/0.1mi 5.9mi/0.1mi 42 1.0mi/42yd 2.1mi/84yd 3.1mi/126yd 4.1mi/168yd 5.1mi/0.1mi 6.2mi/0.1mi 43 1.1mi/43yd 2.2mi/86yd 3.2mi/129yd 4.3mi/172yd 5.4mi/0.1mi 6.5mi/0.1mi 44 1.1mi/44yd 2.3mi/88yd 3.4mi/132yd 4.5mi/0.1mi 5.6mi/0.1mi 6.8mi/0.2mi 45 1.2mi/45yd 2.4mi/90yd 3.5mi/135yd 4.7mi/0.1mi 5.9mi/0.1mi 7.1mi/0.2mi 46 1.2mi/46yd 2.5mi/92yd 3.7mi/138yd 4.9mi/0.1mi 6.1mi/0.1mi 7.4mi/0.2mi 47 1.3mi/47yd 2.6mi/94yd 3.8mi/141yd 5.1mi/0.1mi 6.4mi/0.1mi 7.7mi/0.2mi 48 1.3mi/48yd 2.7mi/96yd 4.0mi/144yd 5.3mi/0.1mi 6.7mi/0.1mi 8.0mi/0.2mi 49 1.4mi/49yd 2.8mi/98yd 4.2mi/147yd 5.6mi/0.1mi 7.0mi/0.1mi 8.4mi/0.2mi 50 1.4mi/50yd 2.9mi/100yd 4.3mi/150yd 5.8mi/0.1mi 7.2mi/0.1mi 8.7mi/0.2mi 55 1.8mi/55yd 3.5mi/110yd 5.3mi/165yd 7.0mi/0.1mi 8.8mi/0.2mi 11mi/0.2mi 60 2.1mi/60yd 4.2mi/120yd 6.2mi/0.1mi 8.3mi/0.1mi 10mi/0.2mi 12mi/0.2mi 65 2.4mi/65yd 4.9mi/130yd 7.3mi/0.1mi 9.8mi/0.1mi 12mi/0.2mi 15mi/0.2mi 70 2.8mi/70yd 5.6mi/140yd 8.5mi/0.1mi 11mi/0.2mi 14mi/0.2mi 17mi/0.2mi 75 3.2mi/75yd 6.5mi/150yd 9.7mi/0.1mi 13mi/0.2mi 16mi/0.2mi 19mi/0.3mi 80 3.7mi/80yd 7.4mi/160yd 11mi/0.1mi 15mi/0.2mi 18mi/0.2mi 22mi/0.3mi 85 4.2mi/85yd 8.3mi/170yd 12mi/0.1mi 17mi/0.2mi 21mi/0.2mi 25mi/0.3mi 90 4.7mi/90yd 9.3mi/0.1mi 14mi/0.2mi 19mi/0.2mi 23mi/0.3mi 28mi/0.3mi 95 5.2mi/95yd 10mi/0.1mi 16mi/0.2mi 21mi/0.2mi 26mi/0.3mi 31mi/0.3mi 100 5.7mi/100yd 11mi/0.1mi 17mi/0.2mi 23mi/0.2mi 29mi/0.3mi 34mi/0.3mi ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #165 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.