From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue May 13 04:50:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA29826 for ; Tue, 13 May 1997 04:50:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA32751 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 13 May 1997 04:18:06 -0500 Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 04:18:06 -0500 Message-Id: <199705130918.EAA32751@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #166 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, May 13 1997 Volume 01 : Number 166 In this digest: Re: IN> Immediate aftermath of the Fall Re: IN> Archangel of Death : Susan of Sto Helit IN> Roles. [none] Re: IN> Islam and IN Re: IN> Some questions IN> Re: Humans and Celestial Damage IN> Re: Mercurians vs Impudites IN> Re: No Subject Re: Re[2]: IN> Demons Smoking... Re: IN> Celestial Disturbances Re: IN> Islam and IN IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #165 IN> Eternal Dawn PBEM - Call for Lurkers IN> Too Much Music?? RE: IN> the law of threes... Re: IN> Know Your Diabolicals #14 -- missing information IN> Malakim Honour Re: IN> Celestial Disturbances RE: IN> the law of threes... Re: IN> Malakim Honour Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #165 Re: IN> Celestial Disturbances Re: IN> Islam and IN IN> More ramblings about smoking/disturbance... Re: IN> Immediate aftermath of the Fall; the law of threes Re: IN> Malakim Honour IN> Celestial Disturbances ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 12 May 97 15:05:34 PDT From: Christopher Paul Subject: Re: IN> Immediate aftermath of the Fall Sam Kington wrote, in part: > I've been wondering for quite a while about what happened in the > immediate aftermath of the Fall, when Lucifer and a third of the > existing Celestials Fell, and immediately found them on the wrong side > of twice as many suddenly hostile Angels, and God to boot. Namely, > why/how did the demons survive? I've always imagined it this way, from the perspective of the unimaginable. Put yourself in the shoes of the average Angel at the time of the Fall: Heaven is perfect and wonderful. Those misguided fools have behaved so poorly that they are no longer worthy. We will Kick Them Out. What punishment beyond that is meaningful or necessary? How sad would you be if you got Kicked Out of Heaven? Beyond that, why should one be hostile to them? Hostility is not the angelic nature. Pity seems more appropriate. The whole concept that there are other places to be (as they all pale in comparasion to Heaven), and the notion that the fallen ones would still be in the symphony and would try to mess it up (rather than just sit in their own little selfish corner of it and suffer their loss of the majesty of Heaven) is really a realization that is the product of hindsight. Although now it seems to have been a bad call, at the time, I'm sure "Exile from Paradise" was certainly seen as a punishment on par with eternal death. Any fool can see that to "conquer" Heaven would be to destroy everything that is majestic about it, so the idea of the fallen fighting to "re-take" Heaven is preposterous. The War is a much more insidious thing than that, and only the oldest and most powerful might have forseen it (Yves, Michael, God himself) and, as scary as it is, they might just have had some method to their collective or individual madness. I think it's just bad planning, quite frankly. Chris ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 09:18:41 GMT+10 From: "Leathal Weapon" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: Re: IN> Archangel of Death : Susan of Sto Helit The other three Horsemen -- > Famine, Pestilence, and War -- Ah, but don't forget that Pollution replaced Pestilence, who retired muttering something about penicillin :) Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 09:10:31 GMT+10 From: "Leathal Weapon" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: IN> Roles. Dear List, In my musings, I've come up with a new way (I think) to use Roles, or another advantage to them if you like. We all know that Roles can mask a celestial's actions in the Symphony, but I've also thought that Roles can 'amplify' the actions of other Celestials. For example, a Malakim has been studying a Doctor for weeks, and finally decides that he is in fact a demon. The GM knows that the Doctor is an Impudite, but the demon has the Role at level 6. The Malakim has decided that the best way to see if the Doctor is a demon is to casually stroll past him and punch him in the mouth! The 'Doctor' is walking home one evening, when the angel jumps out and assaults him. Using the same system for Roles masking noise (Role level + Corporeal Forces) the GM rolls against (say) a target number of 8 and succeeds. The demon's Role has masked his celestial nature. The demon ends up with a bloody nose, an almighty noise echoes across the Symphony for the Malakim hurting a 'human', and the angel makes a hasty retreat, very confused. Does anyone else think that this is a good use of Roles? Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 97 18:58 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: [none] >what would you say the celestial to human ratio in most major cities at >any given time would be? Major cities are probably celestial-heavy, per capita -- there's simply more going on there that concerns most of them. I'm probably going to use a ratio like 1:10,000 or 1:50,000 in my games, but I haven't settled on an exact value yet. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 19:00:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Cymrys@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Islam and IN In a message dated 12.5.97 12:16:00, you write: << it's an adaptation of a "Noun: The Gerund" game I ran >> At the risk of sounding totally lame... Huh? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 19:14:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Cymrys@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Some questions In a message dated 12.5.97 20:50:52, you write: << It was easier than inventing a whole new power for it. >> True, but the power covered more. Obsoive: o Attunement (The Immortal's favourite blade absobs a little of its owners power, reducing its difficulty by one) oo Concealment (The Quickening charged in the blade works to keep it from view [mechanics followed]) ooo Tempering (The Quickening imbued in the blade now strengthens the weapon itself [remember Ramirez chopping into walls!]. Since it can now also hold a better edge, add one to damage) oooo Charge (Acts like the Sword of Discharge from Mage) ooooo One Mind... (full name very long and taken from a technique espoused by Musashi. The Immortal is so linked to his blade that he can spend multiple Willpower on a roll) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 19:25:16 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Re: Humans and Celestial Damage At 1:04 PM -0400 5/12/97, gibsonc@nku.edu wrote: >what happens to a human who loses her celestial forces? This would normally not be able to happen, as humans cannot (to my knowledge) "go celestial" in any way, and therefore cannot take the last hit of Soul Damage that would cause them to lose *any* forces... However, if it happened... Will and Perception drop to 0 (or possibly 1 or 2, if the human had been an experienced sort who'd bought some extra characteristics of that nature without buying up Forces). What tatters of a soul left will either immediately disband upon death, returning to the Symphony, or proceed directly to the upper Heavens/Hell without passing go or getting an opportunity to be a Saint or whatever. IMO. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 19:21:55 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> Re: Mercurians vs Impudites At 1:00 PM -0400 5/12/97, gibsonc@nku.edu wrote: >question to paul, aa beth, moriah, and anyone else with a sensible answer: > >most celestials are opposite, by this i mean balseraphs are easily >understood to be fallen seraph, the djinn can truly be recognized as >disgruntled or selfish cherubs, this works well with all but the >impudites. the mercurians gain dissonance from hurting humans, so after a >while they harm them until they fall, the boom they can no longer hurt >them again. is it that they really get selfish and "love" humans the same >way dogs love bacon? or is the fact they need to feed essence off humans >a curse? i need a clarifcation on this please. Mercurians and Impudites, being the closest Choir/Band to humanity (save the Grigori, and we know what happened to *them*) have the shortest distance to rise, and the shortest to Fall. Basically, they still love Humanity -- but yes, now for different reasons. Mercurians have a selfless love of these mortals, who need a helping hand. Impudites have a selfish love of humans, feeding off them and looking to them for entertainment. Note that Mercurians cannot harm humans, while Impudites cannot *kill* humans -- the nuances are different. There is also an implication that a Mercurian has a lesser form of the Elohite passion-less requirement -- *Violence* in any form might be dissonant for a Mercurian. Including, say, kicking the tires on a corporeal vehicle that's just run out of gas at an inopportune time. Mercurians must control their tempers. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com // emccoy@jade.mv.net GURPS characters, Roleplayers; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 19:09:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Cymrys@aol.com Subject: IN> Re: No Subject In a message dated 12.5.97 20:39:49, you write: << what would you say the celestial to human ratio in most major cities at > any given time would be? >> It would vary; a good rule of thumb would be probably one per 100000, depending on importance of the city, evenly split between up and down ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 19:08:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Cymrys@aol.com Subject: Re: Re[2]: IN> Demons Smoking... Okay, I want to put forwards an idea on minor disturbances (btw, as a classical musician myself, I love the idea of the world as a symphony...) When you're playing a symphony, and - say - the 2nd Flute plays an E flat instead of an E natural in the long run up to the top of Gershiwn's American in Paris, believe me, nobody notices except the most ardent Gershwin groupie. It doesn't stop the performance, it doesn't even get an eyebrow raised from the conductor, unless it happens repeatedly. My point being that certain disturbances rank below 'audible' ranges - sort of a subsonic distrubance in the symphony. A lot of the really piddly things we discuss would pass completely unnoticed, even if you were standiong right next to the smoking demon. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 19:43:32 -0400 (EDT) From: "Paul F. Strack" Subject: Re: IN> Celestial Disturbances On Mon, 12 May 1997, Walt Mazur wrote: > On Sun, 11 May 1997 19:35:10 -0400 (EDT), "Paul F. Strack" > wrote: > > >Celestial Disturbances > > Thanks for drawing this issue to my attention. > > >Assume that the "average Celestial" listening for a disturbance has a > >Perception of 6, and 3 Celestial Forces. > > I have mixed feelings about this simplification. I like the idea of > simplifying since otherwise the GM potentially has to separately compute > disturbance for each celestial in the scenario, or at least the one in each > group with the highest combined celestial forces and perception. Further, > most battles will be a series of increasingly strong disturbances: since > the disturbance level determines basic range, the GM has to recalculate > everything from scratch. [snip] Wow! Great chart. I'll definitely have to archive this :) I was try to address a slight different question: Will a particular disturbance be heard by anyone at all? For that question, generic Celestials seemed to work best (I assumed things would "average out"). Your chart is *much* better when it comes to determining whether a particular Celestial will hear a Disturbance. If, for example, the GM has a list of the major Celestials in the city, he could cross index each Celestial's Force with their distance from the battle to see whether they would hear or not. Paul Paul Strack | Madness takes its toll. pfstrack@math.unc.edu | Please have exact change. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ World of Darkness Page - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/wod.html In Nomine Page: INC2 - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/innom/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 11:18:23 GMT+10 From: "Leathal Weapon" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: Re: IN> Islam and IN In reply to: > << it's an adaptation of a "Noun: The Gerund" game I ran >> > > At the risk of sounding totally lame... Huh? > Vampire: The Masquerade, Werewolf: The Apocalypse, Mage: The Ascension etc etc. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 20:33:11 -0400 From: Jason Griffey Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #165 > Christopher Jackson wrote: > > > In the Russian language, unlike any other language that I'm > > remotely familiar with, the noun for "death" is feminine. As a > > result, Russian culture tends to picture death as a woman in white, > > still holding a scythe, and not a bad person at all once you get to > > know her. > FYI, Death is also feminine in Spanish...La Muerte. Italian also, I think...La Morte. This leads me to think that it's more common than one might think to imagine death as feminine... Jason ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 21:09:08 -0400 (EDT) From: "Paul F. Strack" Subject: IN> Eternal Dawn PBEM - Call for Lurkers This will be the second last thing I send to the list about the PBEM, really I promise. I know that I've been skirting the edge of what this mailing list is for, and I appreciate everyone's indulgence - especially that of the list manager (Thank you Moriah!) The absolute last thing I will send to this list about the PBEM will be the address of the open, character-based, role-playing mailing list, when and if I get around to setting it up (maybe by next week). This message is a call for any people who want to lurk on the Eternal Dawn PBEM. There is only one move per player per week, so there shouldn't be more than about twenty message per week for Lurkers. It's going to be mostly a fiction writing game, so I hope that there may be some good reading in it. I'm offering two modes of Lurking. Player Mode: You see only what the players see. This includes all the "open" moves that the players make, but not the closed, secret stuff. God Mode: You see everything that I see, including secret player moves, except for the secret GM plans and schemes. Of the two, God Mode will have somewhat more and somewhat longer messages, but still not more than twenty a week. If you don't want to deal with the hassle of email, I'll be archiving all the "open" stuff on my In Nomine Web Page. I will probably draw from Lurkers first for getting new players into the game if I have slots open up. Lurking in God Mode does not necessarily preclude you from playing in the future, but your character may have to be limited in some fashion. Anyway, if people want to Lurk, I'd appreciate it if you let me know now, so you don't get too far behind. At the moment, my Lurkers list consists of: Jamie Wilmoth Martin Leslie Leuschen Both of you guys are in Player Mode at the moment. If you want to be switched up to God Mode, let me know. Paul Strack | Madness takes its toll. pfstrack@math.unc.edu | Please have exact change. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ World of Darkness Page - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/wod.html In Nomine Page: INC2 - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/innom/ ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 97 21:36:57 EDT From: Moriah - Steve Jackson Games <73407.515@CompuServe.COM> Subject: IN> Too Much Music?? Consider this: Pick any random song. More than likely, you'll be able to name a theme (or two) running through the song. More than likely, you can find some band, choir, Archangel, or Prince that will 'fit' with that theme. That song can now be named as appropriate mood music or a theme song for that Section or Superior. In other words, the current exercise of listing theme songs can be as long as the number of songs that exist, which is thousands of thousands. This means the current exercise can quickly devolve into a real spamming nightmare. That is Bad. In order to prevent this Belethian dilemma, here are some suggested guidelines: 1. Only pick songs that really, really, really, really 'fit' with that Section or Superior. Sure, "Like a Virgin" can be linked to Andrealphus, but "I Want Your Sex" is a much better fit (IMO). IOW, don't make your list exhaustive, just pick the one or two *best* songs you think fit. 2. Since people are looking for theme songs to play *in the background* of a gaming session, naming instrumental music that fits is probably preferred to songs with lyrics. 3. Once you post your list, that's it, no more from you. As mentioned above, every song you think of can be linked to an aspect of IN NOMINE, which means everybody here can probably go on forever with lists of songs. Don't. One list per person is enough. 4. And please don't start arguing back and forth over the merits of any song and how well it fits or doesn't -- there's really no point to it, is there? I don't want to cut off this discussion completely, just keep it from dominating the list. Thanks for your cooperation. Peace, Moriah IN NOMINE List Manager ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 97 19:18:19 UT From: "Kurt White" Subject: RE: IN> the law of threes... Just a quick thought on this one... "I've been wondering for quite a while about what happened in the immediate aftermath of the Fall, when Lucifer and a third of the existing Celestials Fell, and immediately found them on the wrong side of twice as many suddenly hostile Angels, and God to boot. Namely, why/how did the demons survive?" "First possibility: paternalism "Second possibility: blindness "Third possibility: stalemate from the start There is a fourth possibility: that the "pagan" religions that were "cleansed" by Uriel sided with Lucifer, and so any remnants of these religions surviving in Beleth's side of the marches are enough to maintain the balance of power at a stalemate. Would *YOU* want to face up to a Pee'ed off Zeus? Secondly, the Law of Threes... This manifests itself in TSR's Planescape supplement for AD&D. There is bugger all source material in it that can be used as IN reference, except for the "On Hallowed Ground" supplement, which has some stuff that could be used as filler for Beleth's Marches until that supplement comes out. (Please don't hurt me for mentioning a non-SJG product) With any luck my option for pagan heavyweights allying with Lucifer helps promote the Law of Threes, although as a Discordian, I more readily support the Law of Fives. Hail Eris! All Hail Discordia!! - -Kurt PS - Ewige Blumenkraft and Fliegende Kinderscheisse ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 21:29:02 -0500 (CDT) From: Austin George Loomis Subject: Re: IN> Know Your Diabolicals #14 -- missing information Nobody had pointed this out as of the end of digest v1-#165, so I just wanted to mention that Litheroy's Know Your Diabolicals info didn't mention the attitude held by the Archangel of Revelations toward the Servitors of Technology. When I asked Archangel Beth how Vapula got left off the first drafts of her first few KYDs, she smiled in that mysterious way she has and talked about brain hacking. (Of course, she was making that reference chiefly to explain how come I hadn't noticed it until someone, on the list or off it, specifically pointed it out...) Auguste (call us Gus) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 12:30:38 +1000 (EST) From: Peter Frederick Subject: IN> Malakim Honour Dear List I was considering a plot the other day when a question came to me. Does the honour of a Malakim extend at all beyong their personal oaths? Example. Bob, a Malakim of Michael, has the two standard oaths, "not suffer evil to live" and "no surrender to the forces of Darkness", as well as his own "never abandon a fellow warrior" and "follow all orders to the letter". He is sent to Earth with orders to stop a mixed group of renegade demons and outcast angels from killing an archbishop. He travels around the city talking to a few celestials at tethers and mortals who might be involved in the plot. Through a combination of lies, bribery, intimidation and basic roughhouse investigation Bob locates the bad guy's hideout just as they drive out to hit the archbishop. A chase ensues through the night streets with both sides spraying gunfire and supernatural powers. Bob hits several of the badguys driving them from their vessels (he is using a very big gun), but they manage to get to the archbishop's house were a corrupted servent lets them in and slows Bob down enough so that he only gets to the archbishop as the last badguy does. Recalling his orders Bob shoot the Archbishop, stopping the demon from killing him, and then finishes the demon off for good measure. Bob's tally for the adenture is several badguys, a number of innocent bystanders, a fair bit of property destruction, at least one stolen car, a lot of lies and strong arm tactics and a mission completed only sort of. Now I know that he is not going to be popular, especially with the other Angels of the City, and Michael if he wanted the archbishop saved (but then he should have said so what am I a mind reader). BUT, does Bob feel bad about it? He has not gained any dissonance because he hasn't broken _his_ code of honour. Are there any other "reasonable" limits that Malakim recognise on combat, or is their individual code sufficient for each of them. Additionally do Malakim oaths have to relate just to combat, or is "aid the weak and helpess" a reasonable oath? Thanking you for your indulgence. Yours Peter. Email to peterf@geko.net.au "Whoso loveth God truely must not expect to be loved by Him in return." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 02:46:39 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> Celestial Disturbances On Mon, 12 May 1997 19:43:32 -0400 (EDT), "Paul F. Strack" wrote: >Wow! Great chart. I'll definitely have to archive this :) Thanks, please do. >I was try to address a slight different question: Will a particular >disturbance be heard by anyone at all? For that question, generic >Celestials seemed to work best (I assumed things would "average out"). I see one difficulty with this. The average celestial may have three celestial forces (or may not since ethereal forces seem least useful). A group of average celestials will all hear the same thing. However, an group of random celestials may have an individual with a higher celestial forces, and, thus, a much greater perception of disturbance. IOW, one enemy celestial with six celestial forces and a perception of twelve or twenty is enough to ruin your whole day. Note that six celestial forces is quite possible for a beginning character; it's probable for a seneschal. >Your chart is *much* better when it comes to determining whether a >particular Celestial will hear a Disturbance. If, for example, the GM >has a list of the major Celestials in the city, he could cross index each >Celestial's Force with their distance from the battle to see whether they >would hear or not. Yeah, as is probably no surprise, that's the model I'm considering. Here's another way to work it: Assume that the enemy will put perceptive sentries throughout the city. The GM could put sentries on a map and just check the nearest sentry to see if he heard something. Or, he could assume a sentry is some average distance away from any disturbance. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 14:31:05 GMT+10 From: "Leathal Weapon" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: RE: IN> the law of threes... In reply to: > "I've been wondering for quite a while about what happened in the > immediate aftermath of the Fall, when Lucifer and a third of the > existing Celestials Fell, and immediately found them on the wrong side > of twice as many suddenly hostile Angels, and God to boot. Namely, > why/how did the demons survive?" Another reason I don't think anyone has suggested is that by leaving the demons alive and Hell 'just over there', they function as an object lesson to the other angels, hopefully helping to prevent them from falling. Michael and the others probably wanted to hunt Lucifer and his followers down, but God hekd them back and said "No, I want them to survive away from my sight, so that all of you may look upon their pitiful existence and know what it means to turn your back on me." That's just IMO, of course. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 14:26:12 GMT+10 From: "Leathal Weapon" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: Re: IN> Malakim Honour Peter, > BUT, does Bob feel bad about it? He has not gained any dissonance because > he hasn't broken _his_ code of honour. Are there any other "reasonable" > limits that Malakim recognise on combat, or is their individual code > sufficient for each of them. The way I'm running it at the moment is that every time a Malkim does something 'dishonorable', they gain a point of Dissonance unless they can correct the mistake. If they do something dishonourable that also contradicts their personal Code, they gain 2 or more points (depending on how many Codes they have and how dishonourable it is). The reason I was forced to initiate this was I had a Malakim player with the Oaths (+ standard ones) "Never lie to a friend" and "Never abandon an ally to an enemy". He then tried to rationalise this by continually telling me he didn't consider any of the other player characters friends, and only barely considered them allies when they did exactly what he told them, and nothing else. I told him to get stuffed and then started enforcing these (harsher) rules. I don't want to limit his game, but if he's going to take a Malakim (because he just wants a warrior type) but doesn't want to follow the strictures and selects oaths he can ignore or rationalise, then I'm going to play the Dishonour game to the hilt. Malakim embody honour. Occassionally they can get away with dispicable acts, but their entire being will flinch if they act dishonourably. More so if they violate those personal rules they have initiated as being extra restrictive. If a Malakim player took several extra oaths and always tried to follow their spirit as well as wording, then I would eliminate the extra Dissonance points and 'ground-state' dishonour rule. Sorry about my rambling, I hope this helps. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 00:03:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #165 > > > > > In the Russian language, unlike any other language that I'm > > > remotely familiar with, the noun for "death" is feminine. As a > > > result, Russian culture tends to picture death as a woman in white, > > > still holding a scythe, and not a bad person at all once you get to > > > know her. > > > FYI, Death is also feminine in Spanish...La Muerte. Italian > also, I think...La Morte. This leads me to think that it's more common > than one might think to imagine death as feminine... > I have been told, correctly or not, that when Vietnamese soldiers were shot, they said "death is a lady" (unless they died instantly, obviously). ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 00:00:39 -0400 (EDT) From: "Paul F. Strack" Subject: Re: IN> Celestial Disturbances On Tue, 13 May 1997, Walt Mazur wrote: > On Mon, 12 May 1997 19:43:32 -0400 (EDT), "Paul F. Strack" > wrote: > > >Wow! Great chart. I'll definitely have to archive this :) > > Thanks, please do. Consider it done. Well, eventually done anyway. > >I was try to address a slight different question: Will a particular > >disturbance be heard by anyone at all? For that question, generic > >Celestials seemed to work best (I assumed things would "average out"). > > I see one difficulty with this. The average celestial may have three > celestial forces (or may not since ethereal forces seem least useful). A > group of average celestials will all hear the same thing. However, an group > of random celestials may have an individual with a higher celestial forces, > and, thus, a much greater perception of disturbance. IOW, one enemy > celestial with six celestial forces and a perception of twelve or twenty is > enough to ruin your whole day. Note that six celestial forces is quite > possible for a beginning character; it's probable for a seneschal. Hmm. I apologize for harping on the same point. Let me try again. Assume that the GM know nothing at all about the angels of the city, except for a general idea of their local population density. No Forces, no Perception, nothing, nada, nilch :) The system I created in the article was designed to determine whether there will be a response to a particular Disturbance based solely on the strength of that Disturbance and nothing more. That's what all the dice rolling rules at the end of the article are for. The exposition at the beginning of the article was aimed at getting estimates of "average hearing distances" to make the second half of the rules reasonable. The random elements in the second half of the rules are intended to cover the possibility that there are Celestials of differing perceptive levels within range of the Disturbance. Paul Strack | Madness takes its toll. pfstrack@math.unc.edu | Please have exact change. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ World of Darkness Page - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/wod.html In Nomine Page: INC2 - http://www.math.unc.edu/Grads/pfstrack/innom/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 97 01:23:01 EDT From: "Iota (Tom Wenisch)" Subject: Re: IN> Islam and IN On Tue, 13 May 1997 11:18:23 GMT+10 Leathal Weapon said: >In reply to: > >> << it's an adaptation of a "Noun: The Gerund" game I ran >> >> >> At the risk of sounding totally lame... Huh? >> >Vampire: The Masquerade, Werewolf: The Apocalypse, Mage: The >Ascension etc etc. > >Leath. As the angel of nitpicking rears its ugly head again: Actually, the only White Wolf game to match the Noun: the Gerund pattern is Changeling: the Dreaming. Magic: the Gathering fits too. But, I like using the abbreviation, too, so I won't complain any further :) :) -Iota (Tom Wenisch) Note: This Tagline left intentionally blank. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 97 01:29:26 EDT From: "Iota (Tom Wenisch)" Subject: IN> More ramblings about smoking/disturbance... Continuing this ongoing thread on smoking/disturbance, I am curious as to what GM's are using as the "theory" behind disturbance in the symphony. What is it that makes a celestial's actions cause disturbance? Answering this may help answer some of the other questions out there. Some ideas: The main question is whether disturbance has to do with celestials effects on the corporeal world or celestials effects on beings with forces. In other words, the question I'm asking is what is the symphony, fundamentally, the beings (humans, animals, anything with force) or the physical reality. Let me give some examples of how this matters: If a celestial kills a human, clearly this causes disturbance. As a matter of fact, this causes a great deal of disturbance. If a celestial knocks down a wall, this causes distubance too. Now, is this disturbance due to the fact that some human might discover the wall has been knocked down, and thus alter the reality that human perceives, or is it due to the objective change to reality? Is it the people or the reality that matters? If this same wall were 3 miles down in the ocean where no human could ever observe the change to the world, would there still be disturbance? In some posts I have read in the past, it has been suggested that there are celestials who are responsible for maintaining reality, ie gravity, mundane souls, flowers, animals, to name a few. Does the "intervention" of these celestials to forward these "natural" laws cause disturbance? Can a celestial cause disturbance while Ethereal/Dream Walking? The rules seem to indicate that if a celestial changes reality from how it otherwise would have been, this causes disturbance. What if an angel does something which makes them the direct cause of something which was inevitable to occur anyway? Does it matter if there interference hastens something by a millisecond? A second? A minute? An hour? For example, say a pipe is under heavy stress from steam pressure, and is about to explode. Say that just before the moment this pipe was to explode a celestial opens the door in the room where the pipe is located, dropping the air pressure just slightly from the wind of the door opening, causing the pipe to explode a fraction of a second early. Granted, this case is contrived, but the question still remains: it would have happened anyway. All the celestial did was "speed things up" a little. Indirect effects raise another good question. The rules and stories in the book make it quite clear that a celestial can ask/manipulate/even strong arm mundanes into doing "disturbing" things for them without causing disturbance. Where is the line between directly causing and indirectly causing? Can a celestial drug a mundane and then cause them to do something? Could the grab the mundanes arm and swing his arm? (technically, the mundane is doing the action, the celestial is just moving the mundane's body...) What about in the world of computers? Can a celestial write a virus to take down international computer networks? What if a human wrote the virus, but the celestial planted it in a key location? This would seem like a great activity for a demon of technology to be doing. Does it cause disturbance? If it does, where (computer networks are not very centralized...) -Iota (Tom Wenisch) Note: This Tagline left intentionally blank. -Iota (Tom Wenisch) Note: This Tagline left intentionally blank. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 23:15:12 -0400 From: Anca Mosoiu Subject: Re: IN> Immediate aftermath of the Fall; the law of threes Hi there - I've just joined the list, so hopefully I'm not getting dug into an old topic... I rather like to think that perhaps the pagan gods helped out the demons when the Fall happened. After all, they were probably not too thrilled at the prospect of humanity thinking that it could achieve perfection, nor at the idea that there is "one God" out there. It would explain why they were "purified" nearly out of existence, and why Beleth seems to feel fine about letting them stay in her Realm. BTW, does anyone read Vertigo's "Books of Magic"? A VERY interesting hell/faerie storyline is taking place there as we speak. Anca. >On Mon, 12 May 1997, Sam Kington wrote: >> I've been wondering for quite a while about what happened in the >> immediate aftermath of the Fall, when Lucifer and a third of the >> existing Celestials Fell, and immediately found them on the wrong side >> of twice as many suddenly hostile Angels, and God to boot. Namely, >> why/how did the demons survive? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 08:17:27 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> Malakim Honour On Tue, 13 May 1997 12:30:38 +1000 (EST), Peter Frederick wrote: >I was considering a plot the other day when a question came to me. Does the >honour of a Malakim extend at all beyong their personal oaths? > >Example. Bob, a Malakim of Michael, has the two standard oaths, "not suffer >evil to live" and "no surrender to the forces of Darkness", as well as his >own "never abandon a fellow warrior" and "follow all orders to the letter". >He is sent to Earth with orders to stop a mixed group of renegade demons and >outcast angels from killing an archbishop. ... > ... he only gets to the archbishop as the last badguy does. >Recalling his orders Bob shoot the Archbishop, stopping the demon from >killing him, and then finishes the demon off for good measure. If the demon weren't there, the Archbishop wouldn't have died. I think Bob failed to fulfil his orders. He surrendered himself to the plans of the demon by helping to kill the archbishop, so he should gain dissonance from his second oath. If the archbishop could possibly be considered a fellow warrior, he should get dissonance from abandoning him and violating his third oath. Because he used his fourth oath as an loophole instead of a limitation, he should get dissonance from violating the basic nature of a Malakim. And I would be tempted to call him in violation of Michael's dissonance because he symbolically retreated from the spirit of his orders. The hallmark of a demon is his selfishness: to avoid a mere chance of not fulfilling the letter of his orders, this Malakim has violated the spirit of his orders and killed an innocent. If that isn't selfishness, what is? Really, this is such a heinous example of trying to selfishly manipulate one's oaths, I would give a player a dissonance roll before he actually took any actions in this direction, as a warning he was violating the basic nature of a Malakite of Michael. If he persisted in actually doing it, I'd give him a second dissonance roll for surrendering and maybe a third for actually killing a fellow warrior. Further, he should expect a visit from Dominic. A very unpleasant visit which he might not survive--after all Malakim can't be allowed to get close to falling, and Bob's damned near fallen. >BUT, does Bob feel bad about it? He has not gained any dissonance because >he hasn't broken _his_ code of honour. Are there any other "reasonable" >limits that Malakim recognise on combat, or is their individual code >sufficient for each of them. I think his code of honor has to have some relation to the basics of angelic nature (selflessness), Makakim nature (integrity) and the code of his archangel (in this case, no retreat). Malakim oaths have to work within that framework. A Malakim couldn't swear to always do what was in his own best interest, for example. He can swear to, "follow all orders to the letter," but that has to be taken in the sense of restricting him to fully complete the orders, not in the sense of liberating him to fulfil the letter of them while ignoring the spirit. >Additionally do Malakim oaths have to relate just to combat, or is "aid the >weak and helpess" a reasonable oath? As far as I can see, it only need relate to right and wrong, not combat. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 04:44:24 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Celestial Disturbances I have not checked the math yet, but as a "rule of thumb" system for determining whether celestial activity is noticed, Paul, I think this one is excellent. It definitely deserves to go on your website. - -David ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #166 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.