From owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Mon Sep 29 22:53:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA29605 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 22:53:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id WAA19589 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 22:35:52 -0500 Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 22:35:52 -0500 Message-Id: <199709300335.WAA19589@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #367 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@LISTS.IO.COM Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, September 29 1997 Volume 01 : Number 367 In this digest: Re: IN> Chez Ennui's Son-o'-God thing Re: IN> Re: IN A thought - opinions wanted Re: IN> just a thought Re: IN> Re: IN A thought - opinions wanted Re: IN> Kyriotate of Jean questions Re: IN> LARPS - resolving actions Re: IN> Janus, Valefor, and ...?! Re: IN> Re:The various goals of major demons Re: IN> just a thought IN> Lilith's Goals Re: IN> Yves, Lucifer, and Michael Re: IN> Yves, Lucifer, and Michael Re: IN> just a thought Re: IN> Saints and Bodhisattvas Re: IN> Question about Shedim Re: IN>Chicago and Lilith and Marc Re: IN> Question about Shedim Re: IN> just a thought Re: IN> Chez Ennui's Son-o'-God thing Re: IN> Needing Light for Darkness Re: IN>Chicago and Lilith and Marc IN> More Prophecy stuff Re: IN> Chez Ennui's Son-o'-God thing IN> Where in Hell do you want to go today? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 15:14:31 -0700 (PDT) From: lugaid@seanet.com Subject: Re: IN> Chez Ennui's Son-o'-God thing On 1997-09-29 in_nomine-l@lists.io.com said to lugaid@seanet.com >Colin Fredericks wrote: >> This is a really cool story idea. It's actually not that heretical >> at all when you think of it. >Um... not that heretical in relation to what? 'Cause as a piece >of Christian theology, it's pretty heretical. see, that's one of the things i like best about discussing IN... almost every discussion is a theological one, from the question about whether Hell pre-existed the Fall of the Rebel Angels to the question of whether God is a super-powerful Ethereal... from Malakim-as-demons to what the Superiors want... we may end up going through every heresy and canon argument that went around historically, and then some... i *love* this game! as for Jesus, right now i'm leaning toward the depiction of Him in _The Last Temptation of Christ_ (the movie, as i have not read the book), and thinking of Him as a Boddhisatva, though He is on a par with the Superiors in terms of Forces and so forth... eventually, Hell intends to make an Undead Mummy with that level of power, but are wary of upsetting the current balance of terror between Heaven and Hell, and so are not willing to go through with it yet... when they do, though, all Hell will break loose... Slan agus Beannachtai, Lugaid MacRobert 999 : Girlfriend of the Beast. Net-Tamer V 1.08X - Test Drive ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 17:23:29 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN A thought - opinions wanted At 1:52 AM -0700 9/27/97, lugaid@seanet.com wrote: [...] > >I kinda liked the coming into power thread from WW, though after the > >second game that seemed to cover it, it got a little boring. The > >standard feel for them tends to be "the world sucks, and at most you > >can be a stopgap, or maybe fix yourself". > >i'd argue that that is inevitable in an adolescently-themed "dark" >game (by which i mean the aforementioned "coming into power", or >"growing up" theme)... i note that there are many more adolescents who >are in the grips of (dreaded word) "angst" than adults... i think that >this is very much due to the pressures of coming to terms with >newly-acquired "power" and attendant responsibilities... Actually, when I angsted, it was because of responsibilities (or a sense of responsibility) and a lack of power to handle said responsibilities. When there are things that Need Changing, and one has no way (or at least not the knowledge of *how*) to change those things, it's pretty stressful. Gaining the "power" to deal with the responsibilities helped nicely. (So: I got rather tired of WW's angsty "can't fix the world" after a bit, and am quite happy with In Nomine, where at least pounding a demon is satisfying... ) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 18:23:33 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> just a thought > >It's a good thing I'm lazy, or I'd work on Nifnial, Lilim of Dirty > >Dreams... > > Oooooo! (Why not an Impudite, though?) Either would work, but Lilim seem to have the skills necessary...plus, think of all Geasa (assuming it works). > For instance, if someone needs five hundred dollars for his rent, > and you give it to him in the dream, the need is not really met. > If he wants a really good sexual experience, well...maybe. That works for me...the need must be truely satisfied. If that can be done in a dream, so much better. Needs such as "Get me out of here" in the middle of a nightmare, would make great adventure seeds - - Lilim helping souls over to Blandine... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com 21. Contrary to historical belief, drugs and invocations do not mix. When the shit comes down, it is vitally necessary to be able to discern between the gibbering monstrosity to throw the holy water on and the gibbering monstrosity that will fade away after a few hours, some B-complex, and a good hot bath. - How to Be a Cultist ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 18:23:32 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN A thought - opinions wanted > > Nope - The Prophecy, Christopher Walken as Gabriel (I know he was > > intended to be *the* Gabriel, but he didn't strike me as Angelic, but > > Habbalic). Cool examples of high powered Songs, from Celestial Charm > > (reduce Will to make people listen to commands), the ability to make > > Mummies, and some Song that knocks people out (Celestial Entropy?). > > There will be a Song of Sleep in the Relics book. ;) We have a winner! I assume Corporeal Sleep would be a sleep spell, more or less? > 'Sh!' -- Gabriel, as played by Christopher Walken And he has it at level 3 or 4; verbal component only... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com 21. Contrary to historical belief, drugs and invocations do not mix. When the shit comes down, it is vitally necessary to be able to discern between the gibbering monstrosity to throw the holy water on and the gibbering monstrosity that will fade away after a few hours, some B-complex, and a good hot bath. - How to Be a Cultist ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 17:34:26 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Kyriotate of Jean questions At 1:02 AM +0100 9/28/97, Sam Kington wrote: > >I'm creating a Kyriotate of Jean for a forthcoming campaign, [...] Masochist. (Or Sadist, if you're the Kyrio in question.) > * Can you use any of the Songs of Form on a host, as opposed to a >vessel? If so, combined with Numinous Corpus:Wings, you could have > invisible flying toasters :-) > * Similarly, can a Kyriotate of Jean possess a machine and repair it > with the Corporeal song of Healing? > * If you possess a machine that has been switched off, can you turn > * Can you use the Corporeal song of Motion to move a machine you > possess, even if it could not normally move? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Mind you, all of the above require that you be able to perform the Song. If you don't know it at a high enough level, you'll have to use gesture and/or vocalization. That can be a real problem if you're a toaster. Also note that non-Kyrios may use the Corporeal Song of Healing on things. Also note that if you use NC:Acid while possessing someone's pants, the GM may rule that it's a "rear attack." At least a failed resonance roll with a CD of 6 will put the Kyrio out of commission for 6 - (Cel.Forces) hours. If you're the GM, tell him to buy Relics. He's going to want some of the anti-Kyrio devices in it, when it comes out. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 18:53:43 -0400 (EDT) From: "Benjamin D. Hutchins" Subject: Re: IN> LARPS - resolving actions > Ro-shim-bo (it's jock-em-po in Brasil) came with the first edition of The > Masquerade, the LARP game of Vampire. I don't know if it was the first LARP > game ever (it was released in '93), but since then I've seen a couple of > others and the jock-em-po system has been informally adopted by us for every > one of them. I think it *is* rather standard worldwide, but I really don't > know out there how people are doing... First LARP ever? Noooo. First one published commercially by a major game studio, possibly (I can't think of any others off the top of my head, but then I don't pay much attention to the store-bought LARP scene; the home-grown ones are almost always better), but people have been LARPing for a long, long time... combat systems vary almost as much as premises for the homegrown LARPs out there (I still have to remind myself not to use the old local term, LRPG, so as not to confuse latecomers :), but rock-paper-scissors is such a universal meme that it gets used in a lot of 'em simply by parallel invention. Plus, it doesn't take up too much time... win, lose or tie, you know pretty much straight away. There are simpler systems (Right, Truss? :), but they rely more heavily on the honor system, and you can't really do that in a big game where the players may be strangers to the GMs and each other. - --G. - -- Benjamin D. Hutchins, cofounder and Keeper-Straight of the Continuity Eyrie Productions, Unlimited - An AnimeTech Limited Company -><- Visit us on the World Wide Web at http://www.eyrie.net/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 17:19:15 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Janus, Valefor, and ...?! At 4:20 AM -0400 9/27/97, Thomas Davidson wrote: >On Thu, 25 Sep 1997, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> [...] >> Lessee... Thor was last seen holding off six Malakim. Loki and Odin >> are definitely kicking around. Valkyries and Einheriar are around. Hugin, >> Munin, Freke, Gere & Sleipner made it. Heimdall & Hela survive. And as >> for the rest, "many of the Aesir" escaped. > >Thanks for the info. That helps a lot. (I hope to have Marches by >Sunday...) Luck! >> >> [...] >> >> >But what if there's a group of humans who knows -- or perhaps suspects -- [...] >> >> Hrm..... Maybe they're the ones who corrupted the Grigori? [...] >> >Sure.... why not? Who would it be? It would most likely be a secret >> >society of some sort, on the order of the Illuminati, or the Knights >> >Templar. And what would be their motivation for doing such a thing? >> >> Gain allies, topple the structure that an Ethereal Jehova created? > >Hmmm... yyyyeeeahhhh..... I can do something with that.... Heh... evil GM grin...> [...] >More than a plot seed.... a campaign direction. Oh, good. (Hm. Was that a Need?) >> >> [scribbles down stuff] >> > >> >I start to sweat when an LE starts scribbling.... usually means >> >trouble's-a-comin'! :) (you wouldn't do that, though, would you? :) ) >> >> Who, me? > >LOL. Everyone does that to me. It's just not fair. Nobody believes me when I try to be innocent. Of course, this gives me a great way to make people paranoid -- try to Emote it when I really *am* innocent. >(I knew there was more than one reason I subscribed to this list...The >people here have sparked *more* than their fair share of latent neurons >since I joined, and made me laugh while they did it...) :) It is a good list. I like it muchly. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 17:51:49 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re:The various goals of major demons At 12:30 AM -0400 9/28/97, Calabim@aol.com wrote: >But suddenly I started wondering about Lilith. She wheels, she deals, she >scoops up souls in her web of geasa. But favors tend to be a means to an >end...so what would Lilith want? What is she after? My opinion: personal freedom first. Primarily. It is THE Most Important Thing to her. After that, she starts pushing individual freedoms for others -- and that includes freedom from responsibility. (Of course, it also includes freedom to choose responsibility. If humans make the wrong choice, well, that's their little problem.) After all, it serves her Word, and presumably increases her personal power. Nifty little thing, that. In the meantime, she's probably keen on kicking over governmental anthills. Get people fed up enough with politics and government, and maybe they'll *do* something about it, right? Besides, she used to be human. She's probably more prone to boredom than most celestials. She can always show up someplace "just to see what's going on." (And then there's my notion that Leslie Fish, filksinger and "infamous anarchist," is actually a Soldier of Freedom... "Cancel my salvation/Give me leave to go/Back to the freedom of the snow." "We don't like this world we've made/Bring it down! Bring it down!/We'd take World War Three in trade/ Bring it down! Bring it down!/Risk the fire in the midnight sky/And the rain of hell when the ashes fly/Just so long as the generals die!/Bring it down! Bring it down!" "Freedom road/is a long haul/but it's worth the ride/even if/ you never get there at all.") At 1:47 PM -0400 9/28/97, Calabim@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 97-09-28 13:05:01 EDT, you write: >Lilith geas' mortals...but does she claim souls after death? I would think >she would have to...to keep any power base. But then what does she do with >them? Sells them (or loans them) to other Princes, maybe? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 20:07:39 -0300 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: Re: IN> just a thought Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >It's a good thing I'm lazy, or I'd work on Nifnial, Lilim of Dirty > >Dreams... > > Oooooo! (Why not an Impudite, though?) I'd rather make it to a Lilim - she *does* know what I want and is eager to fulfill it... Ok, I'll end up with *many* Geas - in many levels -, but...who cares?!? :-) Andre (feeling kinda DP after that...) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 08:40:22 GMT+10 From: "Leath Sheales" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: IN> Lilith's Goals In reply to: "What do other demons do with souls? They milk them for essence, right? So why wouldn't Lilith? She doesn't give a damn about other people's freedom, just her own own (and her kin). Well, she may think that she gives a damn about other people's freedom, but I doubt she actually does, she's too selfish." (By Perry Lloyd) I think Lilith WOULD give a damn about other people's Freedom, because that's her Word. To gather power she has to promote her Word in the corporeal world, therefore if she merely promoted Freedom for herself and her Lilim, but denied it to mortals, she would basically be killing herself quickly by stopping the ultimate source of her power. It's still a selfish motive, because she's promoting freedom for everyone to increase her own freedom. On a different note, regarding the Prophecy discussion, I tend to like the idea that Gabriel is the Ofanite Archangel who is having the war in Heaven as part of her (his) insanity. IMO, his war doesn't even touch most of Heaven, just his own territory, but if he gets the dark soul he'll be able to expand the second war to cover all of Heaven. Usiel is one of his Malakim, not evil but infected enough by his master's insanity to be convinced that Simon is the enemy. Simon I'd like to think of as a Seraph of Yves. He knew everyone's name the first time he met them (Gabriel could also do that, but that's one of those extra powers you get with Archangel status) and he knew enough of what was going on to see that Gavriel getting the dark soul would be bad for everyone. Plus I don't think Simon ever lied. He misled, and avoided the truth, but he never actually lied (I'll have to go back and watch again to check this). Lucifer actually tells Gabriel that he is fighting Gabriel because two Hells is one too many, he could be lying, or he could realise that if Gabriel fell he'd have one Hell of a fight for power on his hands. He'd probably win, but it would also probably strip him of enough power that his DPs could get to him. Also, in the IN universe, Yves was the first SOUL created by God, Michael was the first Angel. It's a slight difference, but an important one to explain why Yves is 'different' to the rest of them. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 20:03:08 -0300 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: Re: IN> Yves, Lucifer, and Michael Stacy Stroud wrote: > Actually, the IN canon order seems to be Yves, Michael, Lucifer. > I don't like that myself, and prefer the more traditional approach of > putting Lucifer before Michael. Maybe they aren't counting on Lucifer - so it's Yves and Michael, of those who still are in Heaven. Lucifer may come just before or just after Yves. I prefer 'before', if Yves is also an Angel, but 'after' is ok in the 'Yves as God' theory... > Given that the Trinity does seem to exist in IN, Yves is the lower-heaven > manifestation of the Father, Eli of the Son. Candidates for the Holy Spirit > are more numerous: Blandine, Janus, and Gabriel all spring to mind for various > reasons. After reading Gabriel's description in The Marches, I tend to favor > her for this role. Me too. And remember: Gabriel was there when Virgin Mary got pregnant (baby Eli?) by the *holy ghost*... Maybe the two of them- ZAP!!! "DON'T EVER *THINK* THAT AGAIN...", says a retumbant voice. > Impudite: ??? (Andre?) Why not..? > I also tend to envision an empty chair at the very head of the Council > table. Most new saints (small "s") assume it represents God, but the > Archangels will tell you (gravely) that it's Lucifer's place, set aside for > him in hope of his repentance and restoration. But then, perhaps my > Archangels are more sentimental than most. No, I liked the idea! Andre ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 18:23:32 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Yves, Lucifer, and Michael > Note in Michael's description: "first created being after the ineffable > Yves," or something like that. "The first angel created by God, older than any Celestial but the ineffable Yves..." p130. Note that he is the first angel created by God, but not the first Celestial. Yves is not an angel...(is god a Celestial?) > However, Yves doesn't bother me as much, 'cause he's not so much > really an angel. Geeze, just came to the same conclusion... > (Notice his description -- how he doesn't really fit any choir.) > He's just this old guy who was already there when Lucifer and > Michael first came to consciousness, and he's probably the one who > explained God and the Symphony to them. The description of Yves leads me to believe that he and God are, at best, aspects of one another. Maybe Yves as the Father to God's Holy Ghost? > I've always figured that Yves is some kind of aspect of God, > filtering down into the lower heavens in a form that angels can > comprehend. Ack - dammit. Conclude something I don't, fer god's sake! > Notice that *he* gave the order to Gabriel to contact Muhammad, > and that even Dominic doesn't oppose him directly (though Dom does > grumble mightily). In that light, it's rather ironic that Michael > has started to feel some hostility toward Yves; perhaps he, and not > Gabriel, will actually be the one responsible for the Second Fall. Maybe (to refer to an old post that suggested maybe Michael was Jesus) he's getting a little sick of the Old Man riding his tail all the time. He want's to go out and party... Or maybe not... > Or perhaps the three Archangels are individual creations like the > other angels, but their Words and functions link them more tightly > into the Symphony than the rest, and oblige them to act > occasionally as "mouthpieces" for the Most High. In my game (still forming), most of the angels are only bound to God, but Yves is actually a part of God-as-Kyriotate. He is the Father of the Trinity (whether there is a Son is questionable) - the Ghost is probably God in pure Celestial form, similar to a Kyriotate's Celesitial form... > Just a theory which will probably be discredited by the canon > material...but I rather like it. It's cool... > So who would those angels be? Here are my suggestions. > > Elohite: ??? Jean, probably. Logic, et all... > Kyriotate: ??? (perhaps the unFallen form of Legion) Jordi? > As for the Fallen: I don't know that the Fallen would have definative firsts like Angels - - they weren't made... > Lilim: Well, Lilith's not really a Lilim, but she'd be the > equivalent here. I think she might be the sole exception... > Currently, the Seven (I envision them sitting at the head of the > Seraphim Council) would be: > > Ofanite: Gabriel (voting through her aide, whose name I don't recall) Sol. > Elohite: Still ??? Who besides Jean is an Elohite? Why not Jean? Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com 21. Contrary to historical belief, drugs and invocations do not mix. When the shit comes down, it is vitally necessary to be able to discern between the gibbering monstrosity to throw the holy water on and the gibbering monstrosity that will fade away after a few hours, some B-complex, and a good hot bath. - How to Be a Cultist ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 19:41:20 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> just a thought At 6:23 PM +0000 9/29/97, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: >> >It's a good thing I'm lazy, or I'd work on Nifnial, Lilim of Dirty >> >Dreams... >> >> Oooooo! (Why not an Impudite, though?) > >Either would work, but Lilim seem to have the skills >necessary...plus, think of all Geasa (assuming it works). Point. (But Impudites can be so *Charming*... Hm. Andre, the Prince Charming your mother warned you about.) >> For instance, if someone needs five hundred dollars for his rent, >> and you give it to him in the dream, the need is not really met. >> If he wants a really good sexual experience, well...maybe. > >That works for me...the need must be truely satisfied. If that can >be done in a dream, so much better. Needs such as "Get me out of >here" in the middle of a nightmare, would make great adventure seeds >- Lilim helping souls over to Blandine... True, though Beleth would be very annoyed... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 19:23:17 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Saints and Bodhisattvas At 2:57 PM -0400 9/29/97, Stacy Stroud wrote: >Why is the usage of "Saint" and "Bodhisattva" almost exactly reversed from >the real-world usage? To some questions, I can only answer, "Fnord." I suspect some of it may come from the Bodhis hanging around the lower heavens -- many humans will stay there a while, and then move on from where none return (or at least not often). As to why they're "Saints," that may have arisen primarily under the rule of Laurence (and maybe Uriel before him?). He is very Christian-oriented, and therefore managed to get the terminology of "Saint" used. Another IN etemology is that many saints actually *were* Saints (or "reincarnated Bodhis," as some might call them) -- and thus lent their name to the ones who chose to go back down. Final one -- "Bodhisattva" is one heck of a mouthful (and fingerful to type). When "incarnated Bodhis" started being called Saints, most earthly angels took to the shorter word for "a Bodhi who's in a vessel right now." (Perhaps Bodhis didn't go down to Earth much, in prior stages of the War.) Will that work for reverse-engineering the reversal? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 20:51:09 -0400 (EDT) From: "Benjamin D. Hutchins" Subject: Re: IN> Question about Shedim > >Dominic ( Yes, this is my name, so we can add another superior > > to the list ). > > Uh-oh. > "Whoa! Jeez, Dom, you startled me. How long have you been there?" "i have always been here" - --G. (tell me Smif didn't draw him that way on purpose. :) - -- Benjamin D. Hutchins, cofounder and Keeper-Straight of the Continuity Eyrie Productions, Unlimited - An AnimeTech Limited Company -><- Visit us on the World Wide Web at http://www.eyrie.net/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 19:54:02 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN>Chicago and Lilith and Marc >In a message dated 97-09-28 17:14:17 EDT, you write: >Though I'm not so sure that money or souls are what really matter. Importance >probably has more to do with how it relates to human thought. Only for a handful of Superiors. The >universities probably matter a lot more than the stock exchange. Even Marc >probably cares more about the business schools than the stock exchange... More important than both is the Great Lakes port, the rail and highway hubs, and the airport. Marc is, above all, the Archangel of Trade, and almost from is beginning Chicago has been a center of trade. Not manufacturing, not education, but the simple business of moving goods from Person A at Point B to Person C at Point D. >Yes, Chicago would be very important to Marc. I can't imagine Jordi caring. Oh, Jordi cares- Jordi cares about the Stock Yards and Chicago Zoo very very much, to say nothing of the rampant pollution, urban sprawl, and near total destruction of the ecosystem in the area. >Novalis probably has fond (and bitter) memories. Few fond at all. Novalis is in favor of peace, and her Servitors -reduce- confrontations, not cause them. >Regarding Lilith--- a question along the lines of "know your diabolicals". >What would Lilith have to say about Marc? "He's not too bad, for an angel... he understands about a fair deal, y'know? I don't understand what the deal is with him about honesty, though. I mean, I've never been -unfair...- I just ask for a couple favors, now and then...." >What would Marc have to say about Lilith? "She's an irresponsible swindler. The only good thing I can say about her is she always keeps her end of a deal... unfortunately, the party of the second part doesn't know about -their- end until it's too late..." Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Marc sponsored the first http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | Chinese buffet restraunt; c/o White Lightning Productions | it was Haagenti who came http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | up with MSG. Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Celestial folklore http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 20:05:31 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Question about Shedim >This actually came to mind when I saw the Fisuba & Suzanne fight >post ( bite his ear, bite his ear ! ). Can Shedim possess >multiple vessels. I looked for it in the book when I was thinking >about Rizeel, Demon of Slaughterhouse Films, and I could find >no mention of multiple vessels, or any rules, or any reference >about "see Kyrios...". Admittedly, I scan pretty fast, so can >someone help me out with some hard text ( so to speak ). > Sourcebook, pg. 151: "... the fallen Shedim don't have- or cannot bear- the selflessness that comes of possessing multiple hosts at the same time." HTH. Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Marc sponsored the first http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | Chinese buffet restraunt; c/o White Lightning Productions | it was Haagenti who came http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | up with MSG. Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Celestial folklore http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 21:01:41 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> just a thought > >Either would work, but Lilim seem to have the skills > >necessary...plus, think of all Geasa (assuming it works). > > Point. (But Impudites can be so *Charming*... Hm. Andre, the > Prince Charming your mother warned you about.) Hehe... > >That works for me...the need must be truely satisfied. If that can > >be done in a dream, so much better. Needs such as "Get me out of > >here" in the middle of a nightmare, would make great adventure seeds > >- Lilim helping souls over to Blandine... > > True, though Beleth would be very annoyed... *Exactly*. A Bright Lilim might do it with more impunity, but a regular Lilim doing it has so much more possibilities... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com 21. Contrary to historical belief, drugs and invocations do not mix. When the shit comes down, it is vitally necessary to be able to discern between the gibbering monstrosity to throw the holy water on and the gibbering monstrosity that will fade away after a few hours, some B-complex, and a good hot bath. - How to Be a Cultist ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 21:09:10 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Chez Ennui's Son-o'-God thing > as for Jesus, right now i'm leaning toward the depiction of Him in _The > Last Temptation of Christ_ (the movie, as i have not read the book), and > thinking of Him as a Boddhisatva, though He is on a par with the > Superiors in terms of Forces and so forth... eventually, Hell intends to > make an Undead Mummy with that level of power, but are wary of upsetting > the current balance of terror between Heaven and Hell, and so are not > willing to go through with it yet... Nice, nice...I'm stealing this, in some form... > when they do, though, all Hell will break loose... But of course. > 999 : Girlfriend of the Beast. You are just wrong, my friend... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com 21. Contrary to historical belief, drugs and invocations do not mix. When the shit comes down, it is vitally necessary to be able to discern between the gibbering monstrosity to throw the holy water on and the gibbering monstrosity that will fade away after a few hours, some B-complex, and a good hot bath. - How to Be a Cultist ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 11:26:37 +1000 From: christopher.stevenson@aihw.gov.au (Christopher Stevenson) Subject: Re: IN> Needing Light for Darkness >So let's get real basic here. Pizza. The existence of pizza means at least >the existence of the conceptual concept of no pizza--as terrifying as that >may be. If you've got a concept of something, you automatically get at A truly horrid concept. >least the concept of not having that something. Actual existence is neither >here nor there; we're talking concepts here. > >Now to Genesis. Presumably, we start with Dark. That leads inevitably to >the concept, not dark; which we generally refer to as, Light. So, "Let >there be Light!" Inevitably, the concept arises that there might be >not-light, i.e., Dark. > >We can even go for everything at once: we have the concept >Universe--capital U Universe, all inclusive, for our use now including God >(the relation between the two is another question). We can conceive of the >concept of having nothing: no Universe. It's not possible to ever >experience it, but the concept exists. > >So, you don't have to have the actual existence of the opposite--we can't >find any not-Universe by definition. But the absence of something has to be >conceivable as soon as the presence of something is conceived. Only if the use of such terms denoted solely the exclusion but the terms generally refer to the inclusion and those things which share the same characteristics. In order to asscoiate one of these terms with a given situation it must be decided what the criteria are for inclusion and whether the situation meets those criteria. If inclusion is determined by the absence on a particular criterion, so be it. And unless absolutes are the only situations considered the concept becomes rather redundant. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Sep 97 20:30:29 PDT From: "Chris Jackson" Subject: Re: IN>Chicago and Lilith and Marc The trouble I'm having is finding any Archangel (Besides Marc and *maybe* Jean) with more than a passing interest in Las Vegas. Of course, I'm intending it to be pretty much a Demon town, along with the big Vapula tether in Area 51, but still, I'd like some angelic influence. Christopher B. Jackson ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 19:51:51 -0700 (PDT) From: nightgaunt@earthlink.net (Alexander Shearer) Subject: IN> More Prophecy stuff Well, all you Prophecy fans should prepare to (choose one): (A). Rejoice (B). Cringe Since the sequel is in the works. I don't actually know much about it, except Glen Danzig plays an angel. Mind you, this comes from the last time I watched television, which was before summer started, so... Alexander Shearer nightgaunt@earthlink.net gaunt@uclink4.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Sep 97 23:07:00 -0400 From: dwood@skipjack.bluecrab.org Subject: Re: IN> Chez Ennui's Son-o'-God thing Previously, from the desktop of Colin Fredericks... >Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 23:51:58 -0500 >From: Colin Fredericks >Subject: Re: IN> Chez Ennui's Son-o'-God thing > >>He died on the cross and was entombed in the cave. Exit Jesus #1. All >>well and good. But this is where the story gets a little bizarre. >>A demon of Saminga broke into the cave (they do that from time to time), >>eliminated the old body (which process, incidentally, left the imprints >>on the Shroud of Turin, but muddled the scientific data to make its >>precise age indeterminable), and used the Song of Forms to make himself >>up like the dead soldier. Here was Jesus #2. > > This is a really cool story idea. It's actually not that heretical >at all when you think of it. It sure seemed heretical to me -- here's a story in which Jesus looks more like David Koresh than the Son of God... (BTW, anyone on the list wonder about that little episode?) > Sure, it doesn't perfectly fit Yves' fnord >personality, but what da hey. Well, he never counted on Jesus #2. That's why Jesus #3 was sent in, as damage control. Otherwise, I thought it fit Yves' personality very well. A Soldier is selected, heralded as a prophet or at the very least someone to watch, and is later set up as a martyr. Slightly deluded, surely, but still a martyr. He was intended to highlight the bloodier points of Judaism and the near-tyrannical rule of the Roman legions. And in that regard, he absolutely met his Destiny. The demon that came after capitalized on that Destiny, and then God said "Disallowed" and put his foot down. Or at least his thumb. That kind of direct intervention is IMHO the most unbelievable part of the story as I told it, though impersonating a blood relative of the supreme being would probably warrant some sort of slap... > I would, however, like to point you to one >obscure reference in the Illuminatus! Trilogy. The part where Malaclypse >the Elder (I think it was the Elder) comes back and teaches all the >apostles how to play Bingo. :) Oh Colin, Colin, Colin... do you really want to get me started -- I mean, are you willing to take that sort of irrevocable first step down the path - -- on the tenets of Discordianism as they apply to IN?? > We love Malaclypse 'round these parts. >Unfortunately, I can't tell you what page it's on. You're not cleared for >that (and I can't remmeber). Well fine... I'll just check my copy. If I can find it. I set it out to reread, and haven't seen it since. Unless I loaned it out... > fnord Stay Cool; - -David http://www.bluecrab.org/members/dwood/ MEMO: Due to their overuse by certain segments, the public has been desensitized to the word "fnord." Please cease its use immediately, and instead start using the substitute trigger word " ." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Sep 97 23:06:58 -0400 From: dwood@skipjack.bluecrab.org Subject: IN> Where in Hell do you want to go today? >>>I tend to think of Bill Gates as a Soldier of Vapula who's gotten out of >>>control. Or maybe not... Vapula *is* a Habbalite. Well, let's see... given the sphere of control that Bill Gates has grown for himself, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if there were a few honest people at the top and the rest of the hierarchy below them was run by enterprising (sorry) demons. Bill Gates is not one of them, though. He's not necessarily a demon, nor is he necessarily a soldier, but I figure he's shown a ruthlessness and lack of ethics in his business tactics that many would like to recruit him. The only reason he's not a Soldier yet is that too many demons are arguing over him and nobody can hold onto him long enough. Plus, he may be holding out for a better deal. If only he knew what was going on below him... Software development teams are led by Impudites of Vapula, who have a special attunement called "Grating Program Fragments," or "GPF" for short. (You thought you knew what it stood for, didn't you? That's what they wanted you to think.) Beside keeping everyone working in small groups which don't necessarily like each other, they use their resonance to all but guarantee that program modules will lay claim on the exact same resources at the exact same time, thereby reducing the efficiency of the software in question. There are rather few Balseraphs of Vapula in software development. They're higher up in management, cooking up ideas like Object Link Embedding, ActiveX, DirectX, and convincing people (like Bill Gates himself) that using portions of code from the competition isn't actually *wrong*. Legal is manned by Djinn ...of Kronos. They strengthen the company's claims to technologies developed by people outside the company, and crush the competition, and help them move toward their Fates. Technical support is manned by Habbalah ...of Kobal. The phone system is wired with delays and holding patterns so that Kobal's imps can trace the call. When the trace is completed, an imp goes there and sets up to record the event for the theaters of Shal Mari. Then the Habbalah picks up, gives stupid advice, and jerks the caller everywhichway with their resonance. (Sure, this could work at any of several dozen companies, but it just seems that more frustrated people call Microsoft.) Marketing is manned by Balseraphs ...of Haagenti. 'Nuff said. I think by now it should be obvious what I use. Don't get me wrong; Apple is certainly not staffed by angels. But Hell doesn't pay much attention to the Macintosh, since "it's just a niche machine" and it's "too damn easy to use to be a real machine" besides. Besides, I can't decide which demon Steve Jobs is a Soldier for. Either Malphas or Mammon, I figure... - -David http://www.bluecrab.org/members/dwood/ Demon of Obfuscation in service to Malphas ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #367 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.