From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Jan 5 17:25:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA28806 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 17:25:13 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id RAA05448 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 17:18:02 -0600 Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 17:18:02 -0600 Message-Id: <199801052318.RAA05448@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #548 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, January 5 1998 Volume 01 : Number 548 In this digest: Re: IN> Jewish IN Re: IN> Headaches IN> Losing your wings? IN> Seraphim and Roles IN> Seraphim and Roles IN> Seraphim and Roles Re: IN> Losing your wings? IN> Forces as Game-World Objects Re: IN> Seraphim and Roles Re: IN> Cast List Re: IN> Losing your wings? IN> Seattle for Celestials (was Re: Headaches) Re: IN> Angelic Player's Guide Nitpicks Re: IN> Angelic Player's Guide Nitpicks Re: IN> Who are you, anyway? Re: IN> Seraphim and Roles Re: IN> Seraphim and Roles Re: IN> Who are you, anyway? RE: IN> Who are you, anyway? Re: IN> Seraphim and Roles Re: IN> Seattle for Celestials (was Re: Headaches) Re: IN> Fwd: What 'he' finally did... Re: IN> Seraphim and Roles RE: IN> Who are you, anyway? Re: IN> Seraphim and Roles Re: IN> Seraphim and Roles Re: IN> Seraphim and Roles Re: IN> Seraphim and Roles Re: IN> Seattle for Celestials (was Re: Headaches) Re: IN> Seattle for Celestials (was Re: Headaches) Re: IN> Forces as Game-World Objects Re: IN> Forces as Game-World Objects ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 13:39:28 -0400 (EDT) From: gibsonc@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Jewish IN On Sun, 4 Jan 1998, Ijon Tichy wrote: > At 18:20 01/01/98 +0000, Jo Hart wrote: > > >I think I could write a version like this, but I don't know how playable it > >would be. The idea of the fall and the war between heaven and hell are not > >really Jewish in origin so.. they'd have to go ;-)And demons are more like > >the fae in medieval folklore. > > Well, there are some Fall-harbingering signs in Jewish tradition, if you > really try. And people like Asmodeus (ASHMEDAI) are mentioned quite > extensively in apocrypha and traditions such as HAZZAL. > Not to mention Seraphim and cherubim are Hebrew words. Plus the old testament is all about Jewish history. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 13:43:45 -0400 (EDT) From: gibsonc@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Headaches On Mon, 5 Jan 1998, MarkDEddy wrote: > > In a message dated 1/3/98 7:06:58 PM, emccoy@nh.ultranet.com writes: > > >>This reminds me... > >>In my game, our seraph of Laurence got into a duel with a Calabite of Baal. > >>In a parking garage. Directly beneath Yves' tether in Seattle. Less than > >a > >>quarter mile from Asmodeus' Tether. The two Seneschals showed up to the > >>fight, and ended up placing side bets. > > > >Why am I not surprised? The Game will probably bet on nearly > >anything, and Destiny has an inside track... Who *did* win? > > The Seraph. Because he had a third vessel. It was very close. And very > noisy. What I didn't mention was that the Seneschal of Yves' assistant is a > Elohite of Archives. And was holding the bets. (Any puns about bookies you > just thought of are my fault...) :} > > Mark(Maybe I should do a guide to Seattle and environs for In Nomine...) > Just curious, but what are the tehers in Seattle? Are they actual place or did you make them up? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 14:33:52 -0500 From: Jack of Spades Subject: IN> Losing your wings? Okay, I've gotten into a situation in my campaign I don't know how to handle, and I thought I'd throw it open for suggestions. I have a 9-force Malakite who got into celestial combat with a Calabite - and lost a force. Do I now have an 8-force Malakite, or a Reliever who used to be a Malakite? Any ideas on this one? Lee Davis * Fantasy Geographic Society * Web & game design jack.of.spades@mindspring.com * http://imagen.home.mindspring.com/fgs/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 14:45:57 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Seraphim and Roles >>>Can a seraph consider the possibility of having more than one "name"? Lots of humans have several.<<< Only the Seraph's true, angelic name is his *real* name, so all of the others would require Seraphic evasions as described previously. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 14:45:55 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Seraphim and Roles >>>I agree it is morally the same, and a seraph shouldn't be putting humans in such danger. However, the point I was trying to make is that seraphs can deiberatly mislead people. If asked how old they are and they respond,"Older than you think." this is true and purposly misleading at the same time. A human would guess the angel to be a few years older then the vessel looks. <<< Yes, Seraphim can mislead people (to a limited extent though), but not *lie*! "Older than you think" is very true! "Older than 30" would also be true. "30, give or take a few years" would *really* be pushing it if "a few years" meant 500. (As a GM, I would probably inflict dissonance, though depending on the Seraph's Word and the circumstances I might let him get away with that ONCE with a "warning" twinge...) "30 and some change" is over the line, since "and some change" would implicitly mean "30 plus an amount of time less than 1 year [or maybe 10 years] or I would have said 31/40 and some change". - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 14:45:58 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Seraphim and Roles >>>As i see it, a seraph could have said this, since the balseraph didn't like, if the balseraph had said," yes it safe to poke your finger in here," that would have been a lie, and the Balseraph along with a few classmates would have beleived it to be safe. Seraphs are not telling a lie if their wording is litterally not a lie.<<< Not quite true. You can create a tortured literal interpretation of nearly any wording to make it mean something very different from the surface meaning. Seraphim can say things that could be reasonably interpreted in several different ways, knowing the listener will probably choose the wrong interpretation, or they can say things that are literally true knowing the listener will take it as a figure of speech, but they cannot say things that are only literally true if you apply a bent, Balseraph-like twist to the meaning. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 14:53:13 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Losing your wings? My impression was that 9 forces are not the minimum for being an angel, but the minimum for being an angel an AA would send to Earth. So I think you have a Malakite in need of repairs. Whether it gets pulled back to Heaven for this, or whether the Superior is willing to come down on an invocation and heal it, and how long it will be until this happens, is all probably GM discretion. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 15:13:48 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> Forces as Game-World Objects There are so few forces in a standard entry-level celestial that one more or less makes a big difference. Do "forces" exist in the game world as well as in the game mechanics? Would one celestial say to another, "That Malakite's got to have at least five corporeal forces"? How abou Essence points? These are clearly descended from "spell points" and their cognates, but I never felt that magic users in these RPGs spoke to one another about how many "spell points" a given feat cost. But Essence has the same coarse granularity as forces. It would be reasonable to notice it. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 13:17:18 -0700 (MST) From: Jason Corley Subject: Re: IN> Seraphim and Roles On Mon, 5 Jan 1998, David Edelstein wrote: > >>>Can a seraph consider the possibility of having more than one "name"? > Lots of humans have several.<<< > > > Only the Seraph's true, angelic name is his *real* name, so all of the > others would require Seraphic evasions as described previously. Waiddaminute. A Seraph's true angelic name is his -identity-. But his Role's name is just as much "his" as his angelic name. So saying "What's your name?" "Rick Roleman." is perfectly okay. And I don't consider Roles deceptions at all, in that they don't 'grate on the trueness of the Symphony' like lies do. In fact, quite the contrary, they're meant to make the Symphony much smoother and less perturbed. Finally, the whole - -point- of having a Role rather than just pretending to be a regular person is that you -really are- that Role. (with some nods and winks from reality, admittedly). So I don't see what the big deal is. Jason ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 15:22:45 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Cast List > > > Marc: Wallace Shawn (Vizzini in "The Princess Bride") > > > > Marc ought to look and sound a lot smoother. He's over-exposed, > > but John Travolta might be interesting. > > This was personal. I love Wallace Shawn, and had to find a role > he'd fit into. "What? Nybbas signed a 666 year deal with Amy > Grant? Inconceivable!" Ah! I've found our Janus! "You keep on using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." (God, the number of times I've used those characters in a game is just hideous. Including the really bad AD&D game that inspired the quotes (from a Int 5 fighter) "Hey Vecini, check for traps. " and "How about we settle this sportsman-like; sit down, play chess?") > > > Baal: Al Pacino (Michael Corleone in "The Godfather" trilogy) > > > > I always though Michael Biehn (Many James Cameron flicks). > > Michael Biehn's not available, he's playing (surprise, surprise) a > soldier of God. Exactly how many special forces operatives HAS this > guy played anyway? Plus, Baal is a general, not a warrior. Pacino would do great as Baal (trust me, he did good as Satan...) Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 14:38:15 -0600 (CST) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Losing your wings? >Okay, I've gotten into a situation in my campaign I don't know how to >handle, and I thought I'd throw it open for suggestions. I have a 9-force >Malakite who got into celestial combat with a Calabite - and lost a force. > Do I now have an 8-force Malakite, or a Reliever who used to be a >Malakite? Any ideas on this one? > An Angel fledges into a Choir at nine Forces. However, once fledged, an Angel does not revert to a Reliever; instead, if stripped of a Force, they just become a wounded Angel of that Choir. Or that's how I play it. Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | "It's Christmas in Heaven, http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | there's great shows on TV; c/o White Lightning Productions | the Sound of Music twice an hour http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | and Jaws I, II and III." Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- A Nybbas Christmas http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 15:33:30 EST From: MarkDEddy Subject: IN> Seattle for Celestials (was Re: Headaches) In a message dated 1/5/98 10:59:24 AM, gibsonc@NKU.EDU writes: >Just curious, but what are the tehers in Seattle? Are they actual place >or >did you make them up? The tethers I have made up for the Seattle area are all actual buildings/locations. For obscure reasons, most of them are on or near the University of Washington campus. Side o' Light: Destiny (and Archives): Suzallo Library, the oldest library building in Seattle. The tethers are actually very close, but split. Yves' tether is in the old Graduate Reading Room, while Beth's is in the Library School Student's Lounge. The Cherub of Destiny who is the seneschal is unusually easy going. The Elohite of Archives has a twisted sense of humor, and (if she falls) is most likely to become a Habalite of Kobal. Lightning: The Academic Computing Center (ACC for short), the building shown in War Games. The seneschalle is a Mercurian who has a role as a Comp.Sci. Doctoral candidate. Flowers: Novalis' tether is in the Arboretum, specifically the Tea Room of the Japanese Garden. Her Seneschal is an Offanite who has a role as a Seattle Parks Gardener. The Sword: Laurence's tether is at the Fort Lewis Chapel, just south of Tacoma. His Seneschal is a Malakite (naturally) Judgement: The Dominican priory in the U District. The Seneschal is also the Prior. These are all the characters have visited. Side of Darkness: The Game: The Wizards of the Coast Gaming Center's upstairs offices. (Because we game there, and it was funny...) Lust: Deja Vu downtown (which has recently been closed down, for different reasons in game and out) Fire: The Mary Pang Foods warehouse's remains. Four firefighters died, and the state can't try anyone for murder. This is all I have for now.... Any comments? Mark(Seattle GM) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 23:27:43 -0600 (CST) From: Shadowcat Subject: Re: IN> Angelic Player's Guide Nitpicks On Fri, 2 Jan 1998, Nana Yaw Ofori wrote: > Now, getting around the "How old are you?" question...I suppose a > Seraph could say "23 and change," ommiting that the "change" amounts to 615 > more years. But now I'm digressing. Back to the Nitpicking. An answer you could use is "I was born in the year of the 'fire horse' under the sign of cancer." You just don't stat WHICH year of the fire horse. Shadowcat P.S. that is the answer I give to people when I don't want them to know my age. 5 points to anyone who can get my birth date with in a month. All cats may look upon a king. No comment on the Queen ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 23:34:41 -0600 (CST) From: Shadowcat Subject: Re: IN> Angelic Player's Guide Nitpicks On Sat, 3 Jan 1998, Brandon Quina wrote: > ::Grins:: Ive gotten into the habit of calling my girlfriend > Novalis. Its funny, if you looked at her and then at the picture > of Novalis you could SEE the resemblance.. Its uncanny.. If you come to Gen-Con in August we may. > Question Everybody.. If you were a non-mundane thing in > the In Nomine universe, what would you be?? This is hard. I am either a Cherub of Jordi, or a Free-Lilim trying to redeam. With a mild chance of being a shedim of Andre. You don't EVEN want to know my purity score. Shadowcat All cats may look upon a king. No comment on the Queen ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 16:12:39 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Who are you, anyway? lore@tmgbbs.com writes: > Question Everybody.. If you were a non-mundane thing in > the In Nomine universe, what would you be?? Elohite of Blandine. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 16:19:41 -0500 From: John J Maurer Subject: Re: IN> Seraphim and Roles At 02:45 PM 1/5/98 -0500, David Edelstein wrote: >>>>Can a seraph consider the possibility of having more than one "name"? >Lots of humans have several.<<< > > >Only the Seraph's true, angelic name is his *real* name, so all of the >others would require Seraphic evasions as described previously. Here is where I disagree. The name on my Birth Certificate is "John Joseph Maurer." When I was a child I answered to "John," "John John," "Weed," (as in Grows like a weed) and "Frog." I don't recall telling anyone my name was Weed or Frog but I did tell people "I am John John" and if people asked me if I was John John, I would say yes. When I was 14 I was confirmed into the Roman Catholic Church and took the name Peter as my confirmed name. (A toss up with Thomas). I usually put "John Joseph Peter Maurer" on any religious documents, like my Marriage Liscense. I also put John Joseph Peter Maurer on my Resume because it stands out from other resumes. When I was 16 I got involved in BBS's and used the Handle "Assassian" (I couldn't spell) and was refered to as "Ian" by those that knew me primarily on line. I have definately said "I am Ian" or "My Name is Ian" and if someone said "Ian, Right?" I would say yes. I have used Ian whenever I am in a group with 3 or more people named John. When I was 23 I was with a group that had a lot of Johns in it and they dubbed me "Speaks-Without-Breathing" or "Speaks" and I go by the name Speaks regularly. My wife once introduced me to P.H.Ds in her cirriculum as "Speaks" Does this mean, if I am a Seraph I can only refer to myself as "John Joseph Maurer" not even just "John"? As a GM I would allow me to use any Nom De Plume that is actually currently in use by me. i.e. Ian and Speaks are okay. Weed and Frog are out. A role is more than Acting. A role is part of what you are. Even the symphony sometimes recognizes that. Speaks "Being crazy and evil at the same time is no picnic, believe me!" -Necross the Mad ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 16:42:38 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Seraphim and Roles Obviously, the temperamental differences of the various choirs are meant to supply structure for building characters. But how much structure? How tight a strait-jacket does canon mandate? Too tight and no one will play canon, though they may use it. Must all seraphim be as conversationally hobbled as "Star Trek's" Lt. Data or Mr. Spock? There HAS to be some slack in the seraphic dedication to truth or they should never appear in corporeal vessels at all; that's deceiving the observer into thinking they're human. If they can deceive while remaining literally truthful, then they can get out of the vexed "What's your name?" problem by banking on the fact that "nickname" and "alias" are both *types* of name. Another example: Must all Malakim be totally humorless? What if I want to play a merrily gallant warrior angel, patterned after Cyrano de Bergerac or Reepicheep or the Three Musketeers? Malakite would be the obvious choir. Can't I fit in a sense of humor? A counter-example: Elohites are stereotyped as "emotionless." People frequently have to point out that they are not; they just can't be swayed by their emotions. One list member, I forget who, has written up descriptions of the cast of "Touched by an Angel" in IN terms, and given Della Reese's character, Tess, the choir Elohite. It fits. She is portrayed as firm of purpose and clear of head. She emotes freely, but that never stops her from doing what's needed or recognizing the truth. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 16:47:02 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Who are you, anyway? > > Question Everybody.. If you were a non-mundane thing in > > the In Nomine universe, what would you be?? > According to my .sig, and my character sheet up on the INC, I'm still a Balseraph of the Game. A very tired Balseraph, and getting a little tired of the Man riding on me today, but I did send in my dues. - - Em, Tired Unfun Balseraph ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 13:50:23 -0800 From: "Steven Feldon (Exchange)" Subject: RE: IN> Who are you, anyway? > lore@tmgbbs.com writes: > > > Question Everybody.. If you were a non-mundane thing in > > the In Nomine universe, what would you be?? > Cherub of Orc. Why does everyone serve the Big Words? :/ steve ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 21:51:27 +0000 From: Sam Kington Subject: Re: IN> Seraphim and Roles Jason Corley wrote: [snip] > Waiddaminute. A Seraph's true angelic name is his -identity-. But his > Role's name is just as much "his" as his angelic name. So saying "What's > your name?" "Rick Roleman." is perfectly okay. This is again, I would rule, borderline: when people ask you "what is your name?" they tend to mean your *real* name, the most official one. If they're happy at any old moniker, they'll probably say something more like "What do you call yourself?" Again, a little bit of fudging and you're OK, but answering straight out, to "What is your name?", "Rick Roleman", is dissonance-worthy. That *isn't* your name. It's a name most people know you by, it's a name that works perfectly well in normal society, but *it's not your true name*, and I don't think a Seraph can bring himself to state such an outright lie boldly. They learn to camouflage the truth, but they won't out and out lie. (BTW, someone mentioned the fact that many people have several names. This is typically either a) nicknames, or b) fraud. Nicknames are problematic as described above; fraud is blatantly not on.) > And I don't consider Roles > deceptions at all, in that they don't 'grate on the trueness of the > Symphony' like lies do. In fact, quite the contrary, they're meant to > make the Symphony much smoother and less perturbed. Yes, but they do so in a rather dishonest manner. Rather than someone not causing any unnatural disturbance because he's a human and he's supposed to be part of the plan, you have some celestial ursurper who has special magic stuff that makes him look human. > Finally, the whole > -point- of having a Role rather than just pretending to be a regular > person is that you -really are- that Role. (with some nods and winks from > reality, admittedly). So I don't see what the big deal is. If you've got a role/6, say, it's sufficiently real that the angel has probably lived nearly all his apparent life as that person, and is pretty damn near the person he pretends to be. If you've got a role/1, though, the guy may look like a human and not be detected (unless you start looking too closely), but it's still nothing more than the celestial equivalent of a false ID. (I still think a role/6 is still just a *very good cover story*. It may be extremely good, equivalent to a Belgian pretending to be from France, as opposed to a role/1, which is more like an alien in a rubber suit, but it's still fraud.) Sam - -- Home page: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/ INWO Homebrew: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/cgi/illuminati Did gyre and gimble in the wabe ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 15:33:52 -0600 From: Bob the Dancing Monkey Subject: Re: IN> Seattle for Celestials (was Re: Headaches) At 03:33 PM 1/5/98 -0500, you wrote: >The tethers I have made up for the Seattle area are all actual >buildings/locations. >For obscure reasons, most of them are on or near the University of Washington> >campus. > >Side o' Light: > Excellent, Mark. Except that you forgot a few important Angelic tethers. Children: Gasworks Park on Lake Union - a power/gas plant turned into a pastel playground for children. And the greatest place to fly kites in the world. Trade: Pike Place Market - food, crafts, magic tricks, magazines...you can find almost everything there. Fire: Mt St. Helens - Gabriel's big blow-off of steam in 1980... - -Drew ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 16:29:20 -0600 (CST) From: Dataweaver Subject: Re: IN> Fwd: What 'he' finally did... On Sun, 4 Jan 1998, T Bretz wrote: > In a message dated 98-01-03 18:32:12 EST, you write: > > << >>AFAIK, neither are zebras, iguanas, or parakeets... > > or dinosaurs... :) >> > > Oh, you ought to hear my fundamentalist mother-in-law go off about dinosaurs. > She's convinced that their just part of some big paleontological conspiracy to > refute creationism. To her, they are the tools of the devil. FWIW, I know a couple of people who claim that dinosaurs _are_ mentioned in the Bible (specifically, the Leviathan from Job). And who knows? They may be right... obIN: every Word seems to either have two sides or an opposite number; what would the opposite of Extinction be? - ---- Jonathan Lang ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver --------- Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing, FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer. submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 15:29:55 -0700 (MST) From: Jason Corley Subject: Re: IN> Seraphim and Roles On Mon, 5 Jan 1998, Sam Kington wrote: > Jason Corley wrote: > [snip] > > Waiddaminute. A Seraph's true angelic name is his -identity-. But his > > Role's name is just as much "his" as his angelic name. So saying "What's > > your name?" "Rick Roleman." is perfectly okay. > > This is again, I would rule, borderline: when people ask you "what is > your name?" they tend to mean your *real* name, the most official one. > If they're happy at any old moniker, they'll probably say something more > like "What do you call yourself?" Again, a little bit of fudging and > you're OK, but answering straight out, to "What is your name?", "Rick > Roleman", is dissonance-worthy. That *isn't* your name. Waiddanotherminute. What I was saying is that your True Name isn't really your name either. Your True Name is -who you are-. So you'd be lying if someone asked you "What's your name?" and you didn't think they -meant- your True Name and you gave it! Furthermore, if someone asks "Who are you?" giving them your True Name is -still- far more than you need to do. Giving a True Name in response to that question is similar to if, when a cop pulls me over and says "Who are you?" then I pull my soul out of my innermost being and hand it to him. Yes, that's who I am, but that's not what he was asking, and it's no lie if I hand him my license instead or say "Jason D. Corley." > > And I don't consider Roles > > deceptions at all, in that they don't 'grate on the trueness of the > > Symphony' like lies do. In fact, quite the contrary, they're meant to > > make the Symphony much smoother and less perturbed. > > Yes, but they do so in a rather dishonest manner. Rather than someone > not causing any unnatural disturbance because he's a human and he's > supposed to be part of the plan, you have some celestial ursurper who > has special magic stuff that makes him look human. Is it just -looking- human? See, the way I understood vessels was that they look human, and even can pass muster with medical doctors and what have you. It's not a matter of physiology, it's a matter of the Symphony, and a Role is like picking up a different instrument than the one you usually play. Whereas lying is just playing your instrument in a particular way. For example, a seraph, even playing a Role, gets dissonance for lying. Regular old boring humans make a certain "noise" in the Symphony when they lie, seraphs can detect it. So Roles aren't 'dishonest' IMO, nor is the -size- of the Role material. If they're enough to have a name (and all Roles are), giving that name in response to a question about the person's name is perfectly legit. Jason wreck on the highway ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 15:31:03 -0700 (MST) From: Jason Corley Subject: RE: IN> Who are you, anyway? On Mon, 5 Jan 1998, Steven Feldon (Exchange) wrote: > > lore@tmgbbs.com writes: > > > > > Question Everybody.. If you were a non-mundane thing in > > > the In Nomine universe, what would you be?? > > > Cherub of Orc. > > Why does everyone serve the Big Words? :/ Seraph of Goedel Jason hows that for obscure ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 22:35:18 +0000 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Seraphim and Roles At 21:51 05/01/98 +0000, you wrote: >Jason Corley wrote: >[snip] >> Waiddaminute. A Seraph's true angelic name is his -identity-. But his >> Role's name is just as much "his" as his angelic name. So saying "What's >> your name?" "Rick Roleman." is perfectly okay. > >This is again, I would rule, borderline: when people ask you "what is >your name?" they tend to mean your *real* name, the most official one. Right. Official as in your legal name. The one on your passport/ documents/ tax returns. (Actually I tend to assume that when people ask you your name they probably just want to know what you prefer to be called, unless they are someone official or someone who wants to send you a letter). I conclude that a seraph should be allowed to use its judgement to work out which name is most appropriate to the question, and then be able to answer /that question/ truthfully without incurring dissonance. If its worried about specific wording it can always answer 'whats your name?' with 'I am A.N.Other', rather than 'My name is..' but I think this is just wordplay. They can sit up at night and angst about it later, but if that's the most they have to angst about then they are probably doing OK. 'Who are you?' is another interesting question. Again I think its quite reasonable to look at the situation and try work out what the questioner actually wants to know. If the seraph does this honestly and to the best of its ability tries to answer the question it believes was intended I figure that should be good enough. Sometimes integrity is the important thing. If they are in super-seraph mode or someone asks 'What's your full name' then they're in trouble of course, but English only has one word for 'name' and it doesn't have to imply 'true name' in a mystical sense IMO. Language can be so flawed ;-) (I saw the APG in the shops and thought to myself 'that book will still be on the shelf next month but the sequined miniskirt which was cut down to half price in the January sales probably won't.' You know how it is...) jo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 16:42:36 -0600 (CST) From: Dataweaver Subject: Re: IN> Seraphim and Roles On Sun, 4 Jan 1998 gibsonc@NKU.EDU wrote: > > "Is it safe?" asks the friend. > > "Absolutely." > > Friend sticks his finger into the beaker, screams, and pulls it out with > severe burns from the acid. Other students laugh at his stupidity, and the > Balseraph grins as he gains a point of Essence. > > "What I meant was, the acid is perfectly safe..." > > As i see it, a seraph could have said this, since the balseraph didn't > like, if the balseraph had said," yes it safe to poke your finger in > here," that would have been a lie, and the Balseraph along with a few > classmates would have beleived it to be safe. > Seraphs are not telling a lie if their wording is litterally not a lie. That sounds too much like Asmodeus, rather than Dominic (for those of you who don't know, I believe that Asmodeus represents obeying the letter of the law, while Dominic represents obeying the spirit of the Law); seraphs need to, IMHO, follow the spirit of "do not intentionally mislead", rather than the letter. In the above example, said Seraph would have gained severe dissonance, since he was attempting to mislead. Does this mean that a seraph who doesn't go around attempting to ensure that everyone he talks to knows exactly what he is, why he is there, and what is going on at all times is attempting to mislead? I don't know. - ---- Jonathan Lang ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver --------- Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing, FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer. submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 09:50:54 +1100 From: christopher.stevenson@aihw.gov.au (Chris Stevenson) Subject: Re: IN> Seraphim and Roles >> So what you are saying is that intentionally misleading someone by choice >> of words is not a lie. That seems to fit my definition of a lie exactly. >> Intentionally misleading someone wether you actually say "Its safe to put >> a finger in a blender" or if you mislead someone to think that is safe to >> put a finger in the blender by not qualifying the statement, they ammount >> the same thing, morally speaking. Not even little white lies, huh? >I agree it is morally the same, and a seraph shouldn't be putting humans >in such danger. However, the point I was trying to make is that seraphs >can deiberatly mislead people. If asked how old they are and they >respond,"Older than you think." this is true and purposly misleading at >the same time. A human would guess the angel to be a few years older then >the vessel looks. Doesn't this depend on what the angel's conscious or unconscious intention is? I would argue the response 'older than you think' is not inherently misleading, so the dividing line is between what is implied and what is inferred. And if someone follows a flawed premis, is it the angel's duty to make them aware of the flaw directly? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 09:56:12 +1100 From: christopher.stevenson@aihw.gov.au (Chris Stevenson) Subject: Re: IN> Seraphim and Roles >> >>>Can a seraph consider the possibility of having more than one "name"? >> Lots of humans have several.<<< >> >> >> Only the Seraph's true, angelic name is his *real* name, so all of the >> others would require Seraphic evasions as described previously. > > >Waiddaminute. A Seraph's true angelic name is his -identity-. But his >Role's name is just as much "his" as his angelic name. So saying "What's >your name?" "Rick Roleman." is perfectly okay. And I don't consider Roles >deceptions at all, in that they don't 'grate on the trueness of the >Symphony' like lies do. In fact, quite the contrary, they're meant to >make the Symphony much smoother and less perturbed. Finally, the whole >-point- of having a Role rather than just pretending to be a regular >person is that you -really are- that Role. (with some nods and winks from >reality, admittedly). So I don't see what the big deal is. > > >Jason If there are 'true names' then the question of 'name' is not specific, allowing responses of pseudonyms etc. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 14:46:32 -0800 (PST) From: Querent Subject: Re: IN> Seattle for Celestials (was Re: Headaches) Funny, I too set my games in Seattle, though I've a few different tethers. Currently I'm editing and compiling a few pages of notes for an article to be submitted to Pyramid magazine...In Nomine: Seattle. For liability reasons, some of the more favored tethers are not included. I don't think WotC would like being an infernal tether. (In my games, WotC is a very strong victory for Asmodeus, hence the large number of powerful Black cards in their game...) Look for it soon, I plan to submit copy by mid February at the latest. - ---MarkDEddy wrote: > > >Just curious, but what are the tehers in Seattle? Are they actual place > >or > >did you make them up? > > The tethers I have made up for the Seattle area are all actual > buildings/locations. > For obscure reasons, most of them are on or near the University of Washington > campus. > == --Querent USELESS FACT: Why are the command centers on submarines sometimes cloaked in red light? No, Red Alert is not the right answer. Stop watching Star Trek. In daylight hours, the command center is lit normally, but at night, the only lights are red to dilate the pupils. That way, if the periscope is needed, the crew's eyes are already adjusted to the lack of sunlight. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 10:05:39 +1100 From: christopher.stevenson@aihw.gov.au (Chris Stevenson) Subject: Re: IN> Seattle for Celestials (was Re: Headaches) >At 03:33 PM 1/5/98 -0500, you wrote: >>The tethers I have made up for the Seattle area are all actual >>buildings/locations. >>For obscure reasons, most of them are on or near the University of >Washington> > >>campus. >> >>Side o' Light: >> > >Excellent, Mark. Except that you forgot a few important Angelic tethers. > >Children: Gasworks Park on Lake Union - a power/gas plant turned into a >pastel playground for children. And the greatest place to fly kites in the >world. > >Trade: Pike Place Market - food, crafts, magic tricks, magazines...you can >find almost everything there. > >Fire: Mt St. Helens - Gabriel's big blow-off of steam in 1980... Does that make Mt Rainier, as the other decade volcano, an encore performance in the making? (Get your ring-side tickets now!) >-Drew ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 15:02:50 -0800 (PST) From: Querent Subject: Re: IN> Forces as Game-World Objects Certainly the difference could be told (provided some method other than simple perception were used.) But never would a quantifiable amount be used. I can look at the person next to me, and say "Gee, he's much stronger than I am" but I'd be hard pressed to say "Looks like he's got 3 more points of Strength than I have." Provided the observer had a means to discern the amount of forces/essence, the difference would be relational, not quantitative. Just my 0.16 bits. - ---Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > There are so few forces in a standard entry-level celestial that > one more or less makes a big difference. Do "forces" exist in > the game world as well as in the game mechanics? Would one celestial > say to another, "That Malakite's got to have at least five corporeal > forces"? > > How abou Essence points? These are clearly descended from "spell > points" and their cognates, but I never felt that magic users in > these RPGs spoke to one another about how many "spell points" a given > feat cost. But Essence has the same coarse granularity as forces. > It would be reasonable to notice it. == --Querent USELESS FACT: Why are the command centers on submarines sometimes cloaked in red light? No, Red Alert is not the right answer. Stop watching Star Trek. In daylight hours, the command center is lit normally, but at night, the only lights are red to dilate the pupils. That way, if the periscope is needed, the crew's eyes are already adjusted to the lack of sunlight. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 10:06:39 +1100 (EST) From: Peter Frederick Subject: Re: IN> Forces as Game-World Objects Earl wrote: >There are so few forces in a standard entry-level celestial that >one more or less makes a big difference. Do "forces" exist in >the game world as well as in the game mechanics? Would one celestial >say to another, "That Malakite's got to have at least five corporeal >forces"? I am not sure that it would be too noticable when the Forces are cloaked in a Vessel, but on the Celestial or Ethereal Plane, where you can get a more direct look at the Forces, then I would give a Player some sort of idea. "The Lava Spirit is big, perhas a third bigger than you, and mostly concentrated in Ethereal Forces." or somthing like that. >How about Essence points? These are clearly descended from "spell >points" and their cognates, but I never felt that magic users in >these RPGs spoke to one another about how many "spell points" a given >feat cost. But Essence has the same coarse granularity as forces. >It would be reasonable to notice it. > >Earl Similar to above, I am not sure that I like the feel of Celstials putting numbers to expenditure of Essence. I couldn't tell you how many calories any feat of strength is going to cost me, but I can tell you that swiming 100m takes about all I have in one burst. So maybe it is just "A Little bit", "A Lot", "All I have" and "Twice what you can hold" (if you can see the Essence in a big Relicary). Thanking you for your indulgence. Regards, Peter. Reply to peterf@wr.com.au What does the Lord require of you, but to do justice and to love kindness and to walk humbly with your God ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #548 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.