From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Jan 7 06:14:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA17432 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 06:14:46 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id GAA05035 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 06:06:15 -0600 Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 06:06:15 -0600 Message-Id: <199801071206.GAA05035@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #552 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, January 7 1998 Volume 01 : Number 552 In this digest: Re: IN> Seraphim and Roles Re: IN> Who are you, anyway? Re: IN> IN, WoD, mortals and history Re: IN> Who are you, anyway? Re: IN> Seraphim and Roles IN> A resonance question Re: IN> Extinction Re: IN> A resonance question Re: IN> IN, WoD, mortals and history IN> Seed: You Go Yahweh, I'll Go My Way IN> Seraphim and Roles IN> Seraphim and Roles IN> Seraphim and Roles IN> Extinction Re: IN> Who are you, anyway? Re: IN> Seed: You Go Yahweh, I'll Go My Way Re: IN> It finally happened, damnit... Re: IN> My Thoughts on the Song of Stability. Re: IN> Christian Mods for In Nomine Re: IN> Who are you, anyway? Re: IN> Seraphim and Roles Re: IN> Seraphim and Roles Re: IN> Seraphim and Roles Re: IN> Losing your wings? IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #550 RE: IN> Losing your wings? IN> Kissing God ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 14:33:56 -0500 (EST) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Seraphim and Roles On Tue, 6 Jan 1998 gibsonc@NKU.EDU wrote: > One of my players posed a question I thought I'd throw out to you guys. > Her character is 330 years of age, she thought she would just answer the > age question by counting by decades, answering 33. She used her background > the explain it saying after she turned 180 years she began herself to > count by decades. Hmmm, what do you guys think? Like I always remind people playing Seraphim, you have to take CONTEXT into account, too. A human being asking someone how old they are may not actually SAY "...in Earth years, please" at the end, but they certainly imply it. I'd consider it nontruthful unless she qualified it as being in decades. Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian (Married to Rev. Unibomber on 11/15/96 - be jealous ;) Meow! And finally, a special message to anyone who thinks I give a damn... \|/ ____ \|/ ~@-/ oO \-@~ /_( \__/ )_\ \__U_/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 14:36:38 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Who are you, anyway? > lore@tmgbbs.com writes: > > > Question Everybody.. If you were a non-mundane thing in > > the In Nomine universe, what would you be?? > > Renegade Balseraph of Kobal. > Thank you for your status and your location. Our agents will be there prompty. - - Em, Balseraph of the Game :P ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 19:44:25 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> IN, WoD, mortals and history > > > On Tue, 6 Jan 1998, Kevin Walsh wrote: > > > > > > > Funny, I always figured that conspiracies, Mists, Deliriums, etc. made it > > > harder for the -supernaturals- to figure out what was really going on and > > > put mortals -squarely- in the driver's seat in the WoD. > > > > > > > The Mists...sort of, the effect is skewed depending on what type of super > > is watching. But all supers are immune to the Delirium. > > That's -exactly- what I'm talking about. > > I give up. You deduce that the fact that Vampires remember when they saw a werewolf and mundanes don't is indicative of a failure on the part of Vampirekind to figure out what is really going on? The Mists I can see...the average Vampire or Technocrat (the allegedly ruling groups in the WOD) are very badly affected by them, more so than mundanes, but the Delirium? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 19:57:41 GMT From: maya@tcp.co.uk (GR Cogman) Subject: Re: IN> Who are you, anyway? Since everyone else is confessing: Elohite of Creation, in service to Blandine. (Though ever since I started looking at that Kult stuff, I've been wandering nearer to Beleth's Marches...) - --- Maya, Elohim of Eli in service to Blandine maya@tcp.co.uk - -- "There are those who say that wizards are subject to temptations and addictions beyond the understanding of ordinary men: the addiction to shape-changing, or to meditation under the influence of certain herbs and conditions of the stars; the obsession with knowledge, and the development of power. Yet this is not so. Temptation is temptation, obsession is obsession, and choice is choice." - Isar Chelladan, Precepts of Wizardry. -- "Dog Wizard", Barbara Hambly. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 21:08:41 +1100 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: Re: IN> Seraphim and Roles Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Another example: > > Must all Malakim be totally humorless? What if I want to play a > merrily gallant warrior angel, patterned after Cyrano de Bergerac or > Reepicheep or the Three Musketeers? Malakite would be the obvious > choir. Can't I fit in a sense of humor? The Malakite in my PC _is_ the fun one. He makes coffee, hangs out with artists, and is currently in a Mr. Freeze costume at a local theme park waiting to ambush the bad guys. Why yes, he does work for Eli... - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia I want to be a phallic symbol like the Tower of Pisa And wipe the smile off smile off the face of that bitch, the Mona Lisa I'll date Botticelli's Venus, just to tease her But unless you're hung like a Jackson Pollock You couldn't please her! DOUG ANTHONY ALLSTARS, "Fuck You" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 06:24:42 +1100 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: IN> A resonance question G'day. With angels, quite a few have Resonances that are very similar - Elohim, Malakim and Mercurian. Now, is there a limit as to how often these resonances can be used on a subject, or a delay after failing with them (other than when you fail with a cd of 6)? One of my players is a Malakite, and not much of a one for rolling dice. He's said that if there are no limits on how often he can roll, then he'll just roll once/turn until he gets it. Since he normally only uses the resonance outside combat (not that we've had any combat yet), he figures that we might as well just assume the roll always works and just cough up the results, rather than make tedious rolls. He's got a point... Any ideas? - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia I want to be a phallic symbol like the Tower of Pisa And wipe the smile off smile off the face of that bitch, the Mona Lisa I'll date Botticelli's Venus, just to tease her But unless you're hung like a Jackson Pollock You couldn't please her! DOUG ANTHONY ALLSTARS, "Fuck You" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 16:38:31 EST From: LAstley Subject: Re: IN> Extinction >Certainly evolution occurs. >Even though In Nomine is based on religious themes, nowhere does it >state that religious texts are conculsively correct. In fact, just >the opposite. There's all sorts of little notes saying 'don't take me >seriously' throughout the book. >Evolution and natural selection are not theories, they are phenomenon. >They can easily be reproduced in any laboratory situation. It's not >a question of does it happen, it's a question of DID that happen, and >in such a way as to refute the biblical story of creation. yeah, sure, i know all this. out of game, i'm an atheist and so believe in evolution. but in the IN universe science is just one aspect of a magical, physics-defying symphony. plus its been stated that god did create the human race (ie it didn't evolve). so i was just wondering whether evolution really had any effect in the IN world, or if its just down to god's plan (or maybe evolution is part of god's plan) >As to whether or not that story holds true, I point out that In Nomine >does support the fact that dinosaurs ruled the Earth. Where is that >written? It's on the front page. It clearly states "Steve Jackson >Games." Since Steve Jackson himself is such a dinosaur enthusiast, we >must assume his games would not deliberately refute the entire history >of the cretaceous. well, i can't really argue with this :) someone showed me a copy of the beta version of IN a while ago, and it had a cool bit in the history about the dinosaurs being an intelligent race with powerful magic. it was they who were responsible for the corporeal and ethereal realms being split into two (they were originally one realm). presumably none of this is in the IN canon anymore, which is a shame. jurassic park meets mage :) liam ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 13:52:52 -0800 (PST) From: Querent Subject: Re: IN> A resonance question It's not very blatant about it, but if you turn to page 57 of IN, you'll see "The Check digit of a failed resonance roll determines how many hours the celestial must wait before he may try his resonance again for that specific purpose and target." So, if he rolls a 3, he can't do THAT for 3 hours, but he can still use resonance on other things. If he rolls a 6, he can't use his resonance *at all* for anything for 6-Celestial forces hours. This applies to all Celestials, whether infernal or divine. - ---Patrick O'Duffy wrote: > > G'day. > With angels, quite a few have Resonances that are very similar - > Elohim, Malakim and Mercurian. Now, is there a limit as to how often > these resonances can be used on a subject, or a delay after failing with > them (other than when you fail with a cd of 6)? > -- > Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia > == --Querent USELESS FACT: Why are the command centers on submarines sometimes cloaked in red light? No, Red Alert is not the right answer. Stop watching Star Trek. In daylight hours, the command center is lit normally, but at night, the only lights are red to dilate the pupils. That way, if the periscope is needed, the crew's eyes are already adjusted to the lack of sunlight. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 14:59:31 -0700 (MST) From: Jason Corley Subject: Re: IN> IN, WoD, mortals and history On Tue, 6 Jan 1998, Kevin Walsh wrote: > > On Tue, 6 Jan 1998, Kevin Walsh wrote: > > > > > > Funny, I always figured that conspiracies, Mists, Deliriums, etc. made it > > > > harder for the -supernaturals- to figure out what was really going on and > > > > put mortals -squarely- in the driver's seat in the WoD. > > > > > > The Mists...sort of, the effect is skewed depending on what type of super > > > is watching. But all supers are immune to the Delirium. > > > > That's -exactly- what I'm talking about. > > > I give up. You deduce that the fact that Vampires remember when they saw > a werewolf and mundanes don't is indicative of a failure on the part of > Vampirekind to figure out what is really going on? Precisely! It's a classic case of misdirection. Since nobody else can see it, they -assume- it has to be important, when really, it's not. They hide the lies -under other lies-. The mortals who can't see through the Mists are seeing the important things. Jason ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 17:01:44 -0500 From: "Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki" Subject: IN> Seed: You Go Yahweh, I'll Go My Way WARNING: This is a very strange seed, and may offend some people. The start of it is based on a real incident -- check out http://members.aol.com/bjw1106/marian97.htm You Go Yahweh, I'll Go My Way There has appeared, in the large glass windows of one of the local office buildings of the town the PCs are in, an image which closely resembles, in outline form, Our Lady of Guadalupe, i.e. the Virgin Mary. If the PC are angels, they are ordered by Laurence, in his capacity as leader of the Armies of God, to get rid of the image. If they find out who's responsible, they are to destroy them or drive them away. Blandine, Janus and possibly Novalis are the only dissenters here -- they'll cladestinely tell their servitors to preserve the thing for as long as they can, though they shouldn't go out of their way to do so. They're still to figure out who did it and drive them away. Regardless, no explainations will be given -- it's just to be taken care of as quickly and quietly as possible. If the PCs are demons, it gets a little more complicated -- Kronos wants the image to be protected from the local angels, who are getting Laurence's orders, and will order his demons and anyone who'll listen to protect it. Kobol, for a change, agrees with him. Saminga, in one of his more subtle moods, wants it protected because it'll annoy Laurence, and likes the idea (suggested by a servitor and now claimed as his own) of some people martyring themselves to protect the thing. Beleth and, if anyone asks her, Lilith want the image gone. Furfur wants the image gone for his own reasons, and Mammon wants the image protected and exploited for profit value. The other Demon Princes will fall along the lines of their favored allies in the above, or don't care, though when in doubt, a given DP will want it protected (if asked), even if they won't assign a servitor to do it. Regardless, the demons don't get much explaination, but they should be used to that. A careful and well-informed examination of the image will reveal that it is the result of surface corrosion brought about by a defective well-water sprinkler spraying the building combined with the action of solar ultraviolet radiation acting over a period of years. Apparently, the glass is permanently changed so that the image can only be removed by replacing (or destroying) the glass itself. While this analysis of the chemistry involved does explain the cause of the image, it doesn't explain its shape which is distinctly non-random -- and the reaction of the various Superiors to it. The local populace has only just now gotten wind of it, and so the crowds are small, for now. But the longer it's up there, the more people it'll attract, and the tougher it'll be to get rid of it without a problem -- the crowds grow exponentially by the day. Within a month, over 500,000 people will have visted the image, pouring faith, devotion and Essence into this "miracle". Who's responsible for this? If the PCs come by the site at night, they'll find someone pecisely adjusting the sprinkler to make sure the image gets more distinct over time. The man is beautiful, with long, flowing blond hair, a blissful expression, and a generally adrogynous appearance, both in face and dress. He'll refuse to explain himself and produce a flaming sword out of nowhere to defend himself if pressed. If left alone, he'll be back every night to adjust the sprinkler. If followed, it will seem he spends his days sitting quietly in a pew at a local Catholic church. The priests have given up on talking to him. That's all he does -- adjust the sprinkler and sit blissfully in the church. If killed, the PCs will discover that this was a vessel for an Ethereal spirit, a strange, beautiful being of flame with many faces and wings, who will flee to the Marches as soon as possible -- through an Ethereal tether at the Catholic church he's been staying at! Once again, what really is going on here? It's simple. The In Nomine God is inscrutable, ineffable, and distant, and no religion is quite right about Him and His angels. But Christianity in general, and Catholicism in particular, has been pouring a lot of Essence and performing an awful lot of Rites to God *as they understand Him*... This has resulted in an Ethereal god based on the human, Catholic understanding of God -- Ethereal Yahweh. He was just coming into existance when Uriel's crusade started up, and was small enough to be missed. With most of the pagan gods dead or damaged, the human conception of God just sat in Marches growing more powerful from the Masses performed in his name. There are other Ethereal Yahwehs, of course -- the Jewish one, which was seriously damaged but not killed during Uriel's crusade, and the Muslim Allah, not to mention recent contenders like the Ethereal God of Fundamentalist Christians. Where there is a large mass of people believing in a particular archetype of God, there is a faux God in the Far Marches sucking up Essence. Why are the angels working against these beings? They're arrogant. They refuse to believe that they're just the reflections of belief, and believe they are the One God. They war on each other in the Far Marches, considering all other gods to be false, and only recently have a couple of them gotten enough power to start sending servitors into the real world, where they intend to war (quietly, carefully) against the real God and his angels. Servitors? Yes, servitors. Most of the Ethereal Yahwehs have "angels" that attend them -- angels that are not as they are in Heaven, but as they are in the minds of human believers. (Yes, there are even the little baby-like cherubs.) Not to mention an Ethereal version of Satan, and demons -- the whole ball of wax. Heaven doesn't know what to do with these things. After all, they *do* try to encourage good behavior, and Yves has noted that several Ethereal "Guardian Angels" have guided a human or two to their Destiny, though many, in the smallness of their secrarian beliefs, have led people to curious Fates. Heaven's policy is that of containment -- keep them off of Earth, while Novalis and Blandine try to get them to work more closely with Heaven. Kronos, of course, sees a perfect opportunity for important people to succumb to Fates through religious bigotry, and is encouraging the war in the Far Marches between the different versions of Yahweh with Blandine's help. Blandine is working on the Ethereal Satans and their "demons", with a little more success than Blandine and Novalis, but the Ethereal Fallen are just as arrogant as the Ethereal Host they come from, and more than a few Ethereal Demons have inspired Destiny-provoking (and in some cases, laughter-producing) behavior in humans through their over-the-top, moustache-twirling evil (the Fundamentalist demons are especially bad this way). Kobol of course loves the sillier demons, especially the ones susceptable to damage by people quoting Bible verses. This could easily lead to an extended campaign, with Seraphs thwarting the machinations of the sectarian Ethereal Seraphs, or a trip to the Far Marches to convince the Ethereal Catholic Yahweh that it's a good idea to work with Laurence and Dominic... -Loki P.S. Comments welcome. ;) Thanx to Jason, who I bounced this idea off of and reminded me of the baby Cherubs. - -- Kirt A. Dankmyer --- Academic Computing Specialist http://www.wfu.edu/~dankmyka/ -- (910) 759-4202 -- PGP public key available. For the Snark _was_ a Boojum, you see. --Lewis Carroll ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 17:15:32 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Seraphim and Roles >>>One of my players posed a question I thought I'd throw out to you guys. Her character is 330 years of age, she thought she would just answer the age question by counting by decades, answering 33. She used her background the explain it saying after she turned 180 years she began herself to count by decades. Hmmm, what do you guys think?<<< If a human asks her "How old are you?" and the Seraph says "33", she is not being truthful, because she KNOWS the human meant years, her answer will be assumed to be in years, and if she gives him an answer using her own internal rationalization for some other quantity, she is deceiving him. Seraphim *cannot* use these diabolical twists of meaning to claim they are telling the literal truth! >>>You know, if the seraph has an ID card, he could always answer authories who are questiong his name or age by handing his ID over and saying,"here read this".<<< Yes, that would work, because he didn't actually say "This is accurate" -- he didn't actually *answer* their question. Now if the cop says "Is this your real age?", the Seraph is stuck again. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 17:15:26 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Seraphim and Roles >>>We seem to be talking about the flexibilty of the Seraph in general, and in my game, my PC Seraph has run into this problem. It's not just a matter of how to answer, it's the entire Seraph philosophy which makes them very difficult to play as player characters. Unless one is naturally obnoxiously truthful, it does get to me very tiring over the long haul. He has, on occasion, made some grumpy grumbly noises about having to be so careful all the time takes the fun out of the game, so as a GM, I do occasionally let things slide without screaming dissonance. It is, after all, just a game and everyone is there to have a good time, not to walk on eggshells. I know people want canon and want to be exact and all that as game masters, but occasionally, it has to take a back seat to the player's general enjoyment of the game. That's my philosophy, up there with Dice are Evil, and the Plot Must be Cool.<<< Certainly, cutting some slack as a GM if following the rules too much is inhibiting the game is a Good Thing. But Seraphim *are* very careful and very obnoxious and very difficult for humans to emulate -- their dissonance conditions aren't supposed to be easy to get around. It's what makes them Seraphim. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 17:15:30 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Seraphim and Roles >>>In fact, if a seraph can bring itself to take a human-looking vessel and so DECEIVE every casual onlooker into believing it's human, it must surely have enough flexibility to write "Fred" on a name tag instead of "Pharadiel, Holy Seraph and Servant of the Most High God, Accept No Substitutes, Servitors of Judgement Take Notice, Demons Dial 555-0111 for an Easy Target."<<< Sure. The Seraph can write "Fred" on a name tag and let others assume. On the other hand, if a human walks up to him and asks "Is your name Fred?" the Seraph can't say "Yes." (He could give the human a look of utter scorn, and say in a voice dripping with sarcasm, "Did I misspell it or something?" Sarcasm can be a Seraph's best friend. ) - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 17:15:29 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Extinction >>>Evolution and natural selection are not theories, they are phenomenon. They can easily be reproduced in any laboratory situation.<<< Really? Who's managed to evolve something in a lab? >>>As to whether or not that story holds true, I point out that In Nomine does support the fact that dinosaurs ruled the Earth. Where is that written? It's on the front page. It clearly states "Steve Jackson Games." Since Steve Jackson himself is such a dinosaur enthusiast, we must assume his games would not deliberately refute the entire history of the cretaceous. Therefore, the biblical creation story is NOT canon In Nomine.<<< Actually, although as you say, there are plenty of indicators that traditional fundamentalist interpretations of the Bible aren't correct, it's not stated anywhere that the agnostic scientific view of the universe is correct either. (The APG has some on the history of creation, which leaves it kind of open -- evolution is implied, and dinosaurs have been mentioned several times, but the GM can still infer as much celestial/divine meddling in the process as he likes.) The Biblical creation story is not supported as canon in In Nomine, but neither is it utterly excluded. I don't think it's correct to say that every game Steve Jackson publishes is going to reflect his personal views. Yeah, he's a dinosaur buff, but he's quite capable of publishing a game that suggests dinosaurs never really existed, it's all a plot by the Illuminati. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 17:26:22 -0500 (EST) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Who are you, anyway? On Tue, 6 Jan 1998, Emily Dresner wrote: > > lore@tmgbbs.com writes: > > > > > Question Everybody.. If you were a non-mundane thing in > > > the In Nomine universe, what would you be?? > > > > Renegade Balseraph of Kobal. > > > > Thank you for your status and your location. Our agents will be there > prompty. And you *believed* me? Heh...sometimes it's just too easy... Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian (Married to Rev. Unibomber on 11/15/96 - be jealous ;) Meow! And finally, a special message to anyone who thinks I give a damn... \|/ ____ \|/ ~@-/ oO \-@~ /_( \__/ )_\ \__U_/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 17:43:36 -0500 (EST) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Seed: You Go Yahweh, I'll Go My Way On Tue, 6 Jan 1998, Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki wrote: > WARNING: This is a very strange seed, and may offend some people. The start > of it is based on a real incident -- check out > http://members.aol.com/bjw1106/marian97.htm Don't remind me. It was right up the street from here, and VERY, VERY inconvenient for many of us. THRONGS and THRONGS of sheep milled into the parking lot of the bank for *WEEKS*. It blocked traffic so much they had to have 2-3 cruisers full of police there to keep accidents at bay. Over an oil painting. That's it. An oil painting. > A careful and well-informed examination of the image will reveal that it is > the result of surface corrosion brought about by a defective well-water > sprinkler spraying the building combined with the action of solar > ultraviolet radiation acting over a period of years. Apparently, the glass > is permanently changed so that the image can only be removed by replacing > (or destroying) the glass itself. While this analysis of the chemistry > involved does explain the cause of the image, it doesn't explain its shape > which is distinctly non-random -- and the reaction of the various Superiors > to it. Now THIS is a cool idea. You know what the original was? See, a few years ago, this bank comissioned a *huge* oil painting of Jesus Joseph and Mary; one figure for each window-side. The Mary side happened to be in direct sunlight most of the time, while the other two weren't. WHen they removed the paint, the sun had baked oil into the glass...so after several months, it began to ooze out again and the picture reshowed up. Didn't even look like her at that point. It was weird, mishapen, and didn't have a face. I mean, not at ALL...the whole face was gone. It seriously could've been interpreted as a painting of Gene Simmons. Yet it got hailed as a miracle (even after the real reason was revealed) and tied up US 19, one of the busiest roads in the county, for weeks. I have no problem with Christians, but I do worry greatly when that many of them decide to camp out for weeks on end to worship a PAINTING. Okay, I vented. I feel better. Nice game idea...I won't be running it, myself though. :) Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian (Married to Rev. Unibomber on 11/15/96 - be jealous ;) Meow! And finally, a special message to anyone who thinks I give a damn... \|/ ____ \|/ ~@-/ oO \-@~ /_( \__/ )_\ \__U_/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 20:24:19 EST From: LAstley Subject: Re: IN> It finally happened, damnit... >>Malakim are NEVER cruel! A vicious lie from the Balseraph. >>Like I said, speaks for itself. >Does it? I'm quite prepared to believe that some Malakim are cruel, but >all of them? I suppose they're all combat monsters as well, too. i don't think malakim are cruel. sure they can be vicious, or ruthless. but cruelty is taking pleasure in inlicting pain. that doesn't seem very honourable to me. (unless of course it's against diabolicals, in which case it's admirable :) ) liam ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 20:28:08 EST From: LAstley Subject: Re: IN> My Thoughts on the Song of Stability. >>They are the only beings with destinies >>and fates (at least in my world) and therefore are the only things that >>"count" in whatever ineffible game God (and Lucifer) are playing. Giving >>them some ability to me implies that they NEED an ability. >Anyway, why shouldn't Celestials have Fates or Destinies? From what I can >see, their souls are no more or less immortal than a human's soul. It >could be that both Fate and Destiny are works in progress, and that you >can bounce between them. If my Habbalah of Malphas Redeems and later >gains the Word of Healing, is that not an example of Destiny in action? i think everything in the symphony has a fate and a destiny, even the symphony itself (its destiny is the beauty of heaven, its fate the discordance of hell) liam ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 20:20:38 EST From: LAstley Subject: Re: IN> Christian Mods for In Nomine >Ruthlessness and cruelty are not the same thing. Ruthlessness is doing >the unpleasant/immoral because it is necessary. Cruelty is doing it because >it's enjoyable. i agree with you here. i thought the point of angels is that they are, at the end of it all, the good guys, and generally act accordingly. cruelty is, by its very nature, evil >Why isn't Michael the commander of God's armies in official In Nomine, >anyway? according to the game background michael was named archangel of war because he led the defeat of lucifer's army in the fall. he _was_ general of heaven's armies for a long time, until dominic tried to put him on trial for pride. he was let off the hook by god in person, but still stood down as general (whether by personal choice or due to political pressure is not made clear) and just went off to "do his own thing", a course all his servitors followed. as the next most powerful warrior archangel (probably) and most zealous (definitely) Uriel took over as general. he was in charge until the infamous crusade of purity against the magical creatures, when he was recalled to the higher heavens by god. laurence was his second in command, and so took over the command of heaven's armies. i imagine the old servitors of michael, those who were around when he used to lead the Host, as being grizzled, cynical soldier types. they probably used to be picture-perfect legionnaires like laurence's servitors, but grew disillusioned as the same time as their superior. the newer servitors of michael have carried on in this loner tradition liam ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 23:50:32 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Kinney Subject: Re: IN> Who are you, anyway? > lore@tmgbbs.com writes: > > Question Everybody.. If you were a non-mundane thing in > > the In Nomine universe, what would you be?? > Cherub of Michael, I think. alberich@iglou.com | Mark Kinney | http://www.iglou.com/nations "The spectre on my back will soon be free... The dead have come to claim a debt from thee..." -- The Pogues, "Turkish Song of the Damned" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 23:51:07 -0400 (EDT) From: gibsonc@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Seraphim and Roles Seraphim and Roles > Another example: > > Must all Malakim be totally humorless? What if I want to play a > merrily gallant warrior angel, patterned after Cyrano de Bergerac or > Reepicheep or the Three Musketeers? Malakite would be the obvious > choir. Can't I fit in a sense of humor? according to the APH, malakim don't enjoy humor, they are deadpan characters. jahon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 00:37:08 -0500 (EST) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Seraphim and Roles On Tue, 6 Jan 1998 gibsonc@NKU.EDU wrote: > > But by this defination, if a seraph is asked his age then he has to say > the exact truth, same with "what's your name?" True. He cannot lie about his age. He can be a bit vague, "I'm over 21" if he wants, but that's about as far as he can go. Note that that statement is the same as if he had said (WRT the acid), "Yes, the acid is safe when handled properly"...it's qualified. I never said he didn't have to say the truth when asked his name. I'm saying that there is more than one definition of "his name", and more often than not, the name of his Role is what's being questioned. Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian (Married to Rev. Unibomber on 11/15/96 - be jealous ;) Meow! And finally, a special message to anyone who thinks I give a damn... \|/ ____ \|/ ~@-/ oO \-@~ /_( \__/ )_\ \__U_/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 03:17:40 -0500 From: "Ehrbar" Subject: Re: IN> Losing your wings? I'd say 7 forces is the minnimum to maintain Angel status, simply because a Demon could be fledged as, say, a Balseraph at seven forces and, (mostly theoretically) could Redeem as a seven-force Seraph. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 23:32:59 -0500 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #550 >Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 01:03:58 -0400 (EDT) >From: gibsonc@NKU.EDU >Subject: Re: IN> Seraphim and Roles > >You know, if the seraph has an ID card, he could always answer authories >who are questiong his name or age by handing his ID over and saying,"here >read this". No, he can't. If the ID card has any false information on it, and he is presenting it to someone as if it were true, it's a lie. If someone gave such an ID card to the Seraph, his resonance would pick it up. (Mentioned in the APG.) I don't believe this to be a problem with the name but with the Date of Birth. Four ways around this that come to mind... 1) Don't have an ID card, or if you do, don't give it to anyone. Advantages: Well, you can't lie with an ID card if nobody sees it. Drawbacks: Well, don't get pulled over by the police. 2)Have your Vessel made on the date that will eventually become the "Date of Birth" on your ID cards. When people ask "How Old Are You?" they are really asking "How long has it been since your body was born?" They will assume you only have one body, and they are not asking "How long has it been since your soul came into existence?" Humans do get reincarnated, and some of those souls are older than some angels. Requires that your Vessel be grown in an artificial womb of some sort, after which it can be attatched to you, or stored in a Body Bag. Advantages: Allows you to answer the question "How Old are you?" and "When is your birthday?" Allows you to fill out forms with "Age." on them. Probably the best of all the choices here. Drawbacks: Requires years of advanced planning. 3) (Really walking a thin line). The date your Archangel made you is 5/6/1234. On your ID card, have "Date of Birth" read "5/6/34." However, this date would require a 63-year-old looking Vessel. Advantages: Well, you have an ID card. Disadvantages: Damn close to outright lying. Little choice in how old your Vessel is going to be. 4) Your date of creation is 2/3/1100. Your ID card reads "2/3/75" Say "Minus nine centuries or so" audibly whenever you hand it to someone. If anyone asks "What do you mean?" say "It's just a little something I say whenever I hand over an ID card." and shrug. If they press the question, arrange it beforehand so you can say "A friend told me to do it. He said it was good luck." If they continue to press the question, go off on a tangent on how peachy the 12th Century AD was until they tell you to shut up. Advantages: You have an ID card. Good Job. Disadvantages: Will make people give you funny looks. You're not lying, you're just crazy. If they're in the know, they will probably suspect you are a Seraph. Of all the above, the second one is probably the best choice, if your GM will allow it. I would. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 03:49:31 -0500 From: Jack of Spades Subject: RE: IN> Losing your wings? On Monday, January 05, 1998 23:39, gibsonc@NKU.EDU [SMTP:gibsonc@NKU.EDU] wrote: > > > I have to agree, that a nine force angel is what superiors would expect > when sending someone on a mission. I'd say if the player want to scrap > the > character let him. If not, his superior may want to send him on a > special > mission to prove he's worth the extra force. This could be a great > chance > for some serious roleplaying and growth for that character. especially > since he will be at a disadvantage from the others in the the group. > Actually not; I'm running a mixed Soldier/Celestial campaign, so the damaged angel is still above the power median. I now have two six-force soldiers, a seven-force soldier, an eight-force Malakite, a nine-force Cherub, and a ten-force Seraph. Thanks for the advice, though! You guys confirmed my instincts, and, in a world as complex as In Nomine, I don't quite trust pure instinct. The temptation to "de-fledge" the Malakite was strong, though. Really, the player would be more comfortable in another Choir, but she's invested a lot in working out this character's background. De-fledging her would have allowed her to re-fledge in another Choir, more suited to the player. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 12:59:05 +0100 From: Samuel Ranzato Subject: IN> Kissing God Kissing God by Edgar Allen Poet I. If you were to jump from the top of St. Peter's Cathedral, the one in Rome, where the Pope lives, with the great dome that reaches high above everything, built by those brilliantly illustrious masters of architecture, from the very summit, reachable only by an endless series of spiraling staircases through claustrophobically narrow passages, at the top where there is only a slim railing between you and the hazy sky, with the seven hills spread out before you, would you fall into the arms of God, would Jesus save you, would you glide downward with angelic grace, and land primly on your feet, or would you slide uncontrollably down the side of the dome like a holy waterslide and then free fall, perhaps losing consciousness, and collide with the roof, behind the towering statues of the saints, with a great and bloody display? Would you stain the white marble permanently? Would the poor souls praying relentlessly for redemption and the hoards of dazzled tourists gaping shamelessly at the awe inspiring spectacle in the cathedral below hear the sound of your bones shattering high above their heads? And what if you didn't willingly cast yourself down from that unnaturally dizzying height in a desperate attempt to relieve that sensation of shear childish terror that was making your heart pound and your knees melt? What if the wind blew suddenly so strong, as you knew it could, that it swept you off your unsteady feet, and cast you far out over the piazza, farther than you ever could of jumped, and in a twist of cruel, unthinkable irony impaled you upon that lone obelisk, one of seven authentic ones in Rome, at the foot of which they set up that life size nativity scene during Christmas, and you wriggled there like a bug stuck by god's needle, a skewered offering for all to see, until someone figured out how to get you down without upsetting the Pope? Would they bury you in St. Peter's? Would you be redeemed? II. What do you suppose draws people to that lonely pedestal floating high above this vast and ancient city? Do they believe that it is possible, from that vantage point, to see with the eyes of god? As if they were standing on His shoulders? Or do they just want a glimpse into the Pope's bedroom window, or a chance to catch his holiness whispering to god as He appears to him in the form of a pigeon? How high must you go before you're close enough to touch the hand of god? Is that why the pope wears that tall, funny looking hat, to be a length closer to god? III. The dome of Saint Peter's is visible from almost every angle, from every insignificant corner of the city, like a giant blemish that you see plainly on your face whenever you look in the mirror. It's the original holy skyline. IV. When in Rome I saw an obscene number of magnificent and splendid churches and cathedrals, the buildings themselves such glorious works of art, and I beheld a number, beyond reason, of beautiful and masterful religious images portraying the virgin and child and Jesus bleeding on the cross. In fact, so many, that I became overcome by the urge to convert, but I didn't think the pope would be available to perform the ceremony personally. V. I wonder what would have happened if crucifixion was not the standard mode of execution in the Roman empire during that period when Christ lived. I wonder what the world would be like, if at the time, it was, instead, beheading? Would we all be wearing little axe blades around our necks? Would Botticelli have depicted Christ after he had lost his head or while in the process having it sliced off? Would we have Christ's head above the altar, or just the body, or both together, but separated? Would his head have been restored when he was resurrected, or would he have just carried it in his hands? Would he have said to his disciples: Take this apple and bite it. It is my head. VI. What do you suppose it would be like to kiss god? Would it be a rush, like sticking your tongue in a wall socket? Would you survive the experience, and if not, would it be worth it? Do you think god just implanted baby Jesus in the womb of Mary, like artificial insemination, or did he make love to her eternal soul, and if so, did she climax? ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #552 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.