From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Jan 9 18:28:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA24093 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 18:28:09 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id SAA27947 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 18:19:53 -0600 Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 18:19:53 -0600 Message-Id: <199801100019.SAA27947@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #559 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, January 9 1998 Volume 01 : Number 559 In this digest: Re: IN> Of Vessels and Roles... Re: IN> Of Vessels and Roles... Re: IN> Of Vessels and Roles... RE: IN> Of Vessels and Roles... Re: IN> Of Vessels and Roles... Re: IN> Movie Trailer: Partners RE: IN> Happy New Year's Re: IN> Plastic Little (?) AW: IN> Malakite and dissonance Re: IN> Reliever becoming Angels Re: IN> Lilim of Eris Re: IN> Christian Mods for In Nomine AW: IN> Malakite and dissonance Re: IN> Seraphim and Forms Re: IN> Questions, apparently not frequently asked Re: Anime off-topic (Re: IN> IN Anime movie trailer : 2) Re: IN> Malakite and dissonance Re: IN> Words of the Fallen Re: IN> A resonance question ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 17:01:19 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Of Vessels and Roles... Matthias Mueller wrote: > If they can create their own vessels, what would keep them from > having one that looks exactly like Michael Jackson, the pope or Bill > Clinton ? Possible answer: I can pronounce any word Bill Clinton can, but I can't imitate his voice. Without special circumstances, a celestial might be able to do no more than *approximate* a particular mortal form. ("Hey, you look a lot like Clinton.") > About Roles: ...Does all this pop > into existence once you've bought the Role - and has it been there > ever since your Role says you started the job ? Canon just doesn't say. I think it's best to assume there's lots of celestials who work behind the scenes to fake paper trails for the shallower Roles, and that the deeper Roles mean you spend years or decades developing them the hard way, by walking the walk. Just my guesses. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 17:26:12 -0500 (EST) From: Ozmodeus Subject: Re: IN> Of Vessels and Roles... According to Earl Wajenberg: > Matthias Mueller wrote: > > > If they can create their own vessels, what would keep them from > > having one that looks exactly like Michael Jackson, the pope or Bill > > Clinton ? > > Possible answer: I can pronounce any word Bill Clinton can, but I can't > imitate his voice. Without special circumstances, a celestial might > be able to do no more than *approximate* a particular mortal form. > ("Hey, you look a lot like Clinton.") Perhaps some skill in art or some such would allow closer approximations. After all, I could draw Clinton but a trained artist can draw him in much better detail. Dan Ozdowski - -- You had that "I'm not necessarily telling the truth" look on your face.... Emily Franklin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 17:38:26 -0500 (EST) From: "York H. Dobyns" Subject: Re: IN> Of Vessels and Roles... >If [Celestials] can create their own vessels, what would keep them from having one >that looks exactly like Michael Jackson, the pope or Bill Clinton ? Maybe because, in most cases, it wouldn't serve any useful Divine purpose, nor the angel's long-term goals, for the angel to be a celebrity lookalike? >About Roles: the same thing - do they get them from their Superior or >tailor them on their own ? And how is a high level Role created ? I mean, >take the Police Officer example - there are all the files and papers, a mug >with your name on it and your fellow policemen know you. Does all this pop >into existence once you've bought the Role - and has it been there ever >since your Role says you started the job ? Is the whole Symphony/reality >being changed just to accomodate your Role or are just some pieces of >evidence and faked memories created ? Since the character creation process says absolutely *nothing* about how long the character has existed prior to the start of play, I always kind of assumed that the high-level Roles were established gradually, as somebody cultivated and maintained a mortal identity over years of application. On the same reasoning I think I'd require anyone developing a *new* role in the course of play to start it at Level 1 and build it up over time if they wanted it to be more authentic. >Could you murder somebody and afterwards get a Vessel with his appearance >and his Role ? Could you do this while he/she is still alive ? (So you >could really be Jackson, the pope...) Oh joy, theft-of-identity, Celestial style. I will note that bumping somebody off to take on their identity is definitely a demonic tactic, unless the human in question is such a lowlife that even angels will figure he deserves to die rather than have a chance at redemption. Given that, it stands to reason that if whipping up Vessels for impersonation purposes is feasible, then figures like the Pope -- where it would really matter to the course of the War if they got replaced by a demon -- are closely watched and guarded to prevent exactly such a switch. Presumably there are demonic guards protecting pivotal bad-guys for the same reason, again. Hm, all sorts of conspiracy-fodder, here -- How exactly *did* Carlos the Jackal get captured by the authorities? Did John Paul I really die of "natural" causes? Why do so many American politicians seem to show personality changes as soon as they're in office? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 15:03:01 -0800 From: "Steven Feldon (Exchange)" Subject: RE: IN> Of Vessels and Roles... I've always imagined, in this version of IN rather than play test ones, that a high-level role either meant that your character spent the time growing the person from a baby or that a reliever did it for you. This _does_ assume that Heaven and Hell can both pretty much turn out bodies to spec, but if they can turn out bodies at _all_, I don't see that as too large a jump. Remember that for an angel, spending eighteen years getting a role "booted up" isn't nearly as costly as it would be for us. They _do_ have a lot more time to spend than we do. And nothing at all says that a child can't do some good to the family/neighborhood/school/scout troop while growing up. . . . I wish there was some way for non-Kyriotates to leave their body behind, perhaps with basic "I'm being awakened" type alarms set it. I keep looking at Song of Projection for this, but the Corporeal version lasts time measured in _rounds_, which means that basically the celestial's whole night is wasted, and they can only do it once every couple of days. Basically, I go with the idea of a talented reliever taking copious notes on what he's done, and making the transition at a moment when the role could be expected to be confused-perhaps after a car wreck, a move to college, a divorce, or even in extremis a coma. P'raps there should also be a mechanism for giving a vessel to another celestial. Wonder how that would work. steve -----Original Message----- From: Ozmodeus [SMTP:dto2c@watt.seas.virginia.edu] Sent: Friday, January 09, 1998 2:26 PM To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Subject: Re: IN> Of Vessels and Roles... According to Earl Wajenberg: > Matthias Mueller wrote: > > > If they can create their own vessels, what would keep them from > > having one that looks exactly like Michael Jackson, the pope or Bill > > Clinton ? > > Possible answer: I can pronounce any word Bill Clinton can, but I can't > imitate his voice. Without special circumstances, a celestial might > be able to do no more than *approximate* a particular mortal form. > ("Hey, you look a lot like Clinton.") Perhaps some skill in art or some such would allow closer approximations. After all, I could draw Clinton but a trained artist can draw him in much better detail. Dan Ozdowski -- You had that "I'm not necessarily telling the truth" look on your face.... Emily Franklin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 15:06:13 -0800 (PST) From: Querent Subject: Re: IN> Of Vessels and Roles... My understanding is that you can't *buy* a role. You can buy the game mechanics of an already established role. Here you are, a celestial on earth. As you interact under the guise of "Henry", you are creating a role. It's fake. You know it. If you spend the points, you can start to weave your fake role into the tapestry of the Symphony. (What a pretty metaphor that was!) You can not however, simply spend the points to suddenly change history into accomodating your existence. - ---Matthias Mueller wrote: > And how is a high level Role created ? I mean, > take the Police Officer example - there are all the files and papers, a mug > with your name on it and your fellow policemen know you. Does all this pop > into existence once you've bought the Role - and has it been there ever > since your Role says you started the job ? Is the whole Symphony/reality > being changed just to accomodate your Role or are just some pieces of > evidence and faked memories created ? == --Querent USELESS FACT: The shape gamers call a "twenty sider" is an "icosahedron" to mathematicians. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 17:36:53 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Movie Trailer: Partners At 7:48 AM -0500 1/9/98, Stacy Stroud wrote: >'Ey, Beth. >I dunno if you'd wanna go this far, but if I filmed _Partners_, I'd make >one change. > >Zaccur would make his final appearance as the proverbial horde of 22 cats. Now, now, I didn't include any scenes of who he might have Redeemed with... (Okay, okay, I was tempted by some fancy SFX and him kneeling and... But I couldn't figure out where to fit it in so it looked like a real movie trailer -- it would be a "final scene" like in Star Wars, and not enough action. Too many spoilers.) >* >SCENE: > >[One cat winks at Tryphena as the others whomp up on the Game agents] > >Cat: Better than a chainsaw. Well, yes... Especially with Claws. >* >Granted, the tether was of Laurence, so a Shedite would be more likely to >get splattered than Redeemed . . . but he *did* impress a Seraph, and his >actions in both disarming the bomb and going back to help Tryphena (even >though *he* was in even more trouble with the Game) were both selfless and >honorable. Even Laurence, though he might not believe his eyes (or his >resonance), might be swayed. Gotta believe that resonance. If you can't trust your resonance, what can you trust? (Yes, you're right, that was the set-up.) >Besides, that sets up the inevitable sequel: either Tryphena's trying to >get out of all her Geases and go Bright, or else we have an angel/demon >(well, angel/Lilim) friendship, with the attendant troubles from Judgment >and the Game. > >Whaddaya think? Sequal? Eeeeep! I'll keep it in mind. And if inspiriation strikes, it will be all *YOUR* fault! At 10:31 AM -0400 1/9/98, gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: >On Thu, 8 Jan 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >> At 10:27 AM -0500 1/8/98, Jamie Wilmoth wrote: >> >All right... but I get to play Zaccur. >> >> With or without bribery of a chainsaw? > >I like Zaccur. He'll have to show up in my campaign soon. He'd make a >perfect foil for my group's Malakim of War. He used the Artifact rules to >custom make his own weapon based on the falming sword: the Celestial >Flaming Turbo Chainsaw. > >Michael worries about that Malakim from time to time. Ah, yeah... Good thing they can't Fall... I think Zaccur might want to steal the chainsaw... [Still dealing with non-urgent email from the 400 messages from vacation] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 18:31:05 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: RE: IN> Happy New Year's At 2:45 PM -0500 1/9/98, Perry M. Lloyd wrote: [...] >1998, baby! Father Kronos keeps on ticking, as we just keep on licking! >or something... > >-Perry And for how long have you been a Soldier of Lust...? Hoppy Newt Year to y'all, too. [Still dealing with non-urgent email from the 400 messages from vacation] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 18:14:50 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Plastic Little (?) At 12:13 PM -0500 1/9/98, Casca wrote: >On Fri, 9 Jan 1998, Garrett Taylor wrote: [...] >> And how does the relate to IN? :) > >Beats me. But since we've sucked the list_moderator into the thread, I >think we're okay. ;) Hmmmmm...... Well, true. Hm. Can you slant the adventure for IN somehow? (Though I keep flashing on Dominican Tank Police here.) [Still dealing with non-urgent email from the 400 messages from vacation] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 00:16:48 +0100 From: Samuel Ranzato Subject: AW: IN> Malakite and dissonance - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD1D5E.5BDD4100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > However, yes, > normally a Malakite would let the human die rather than letting the demon > go. Unless he exercises his free will and chooses to take dissonance in > order to save the human. So what your Malakite did was the right thing for > HIM. How his Superior will see it depends on who his Archangel is... > -David So, what you're saying here is that for an angel, God's perfect creation is inferior to the martial rulebook a Malakite has to follow ? And you may have already guessed it, but indeed...my Malakim is a devoted warrior of Laurence. 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Does *making* undead require >Superior intervention? I forget. It's not clear. There are implications of such, though. >("Let me get this straight. You want to be not un-dead, right? >So that would be, like, dead. Right?") (But with the soul freed, and the potential to do something useful... yeah, well, nobody said it would be easy! ) >Novalis or Eli would be good Archangels to approach. Through an >intermediary. I don't think there *are* any good Princes to approach, >though you could always try to bargain with Lilith, I guess. Novalis probably wouldn't kill anyone on sight. If you were peaceful, then she'd be peaceful. Just don't get her peeved. [Still dealing with non-urgent email from the 400 messages from vacation] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 18:17:32 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilim of Eris At 9:29 AM -0800 1/9/98, David M. Barr wrote: > a Lilim of Eris (Greek goddess of discord (ref; >www.pantheon.org)). Allowable by cannon, and it falls into the domain of >what I am willing to deal with. So, I am trolling for suggestions; what >would the resonance be for such a lilim? Something with apples, I should >think... Her *resonance* is the same as always. Her Band attunement? Hmmmm..... Possibly something similar to Valefor's (substitute "act of chaos and discord" for "theft"), possibly the ability to bind the Song of Charm into apples and use them as grenades... Malphas' Lilim have something akin as well... [Still dealing with non-urgent email from the 400 messages from vacation] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 17:57:26 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Christian Mods for In Nomine At 1:08 PM +0000 1/9/98, Kevin Walsh wrote: >> At 2:25 PM +0000 1/6/98, Kevin Walsh wrote: >> >> >> [...] >> >Why isn't Michael the commander of God's armies in official In Nomine, >> >anyway? >> > > >I was speaking conceptually, rather than asking about the history of the >thing. That particular question was rhetorical. Oh. Wasn't labled as such. Answer? I don't know. Might have been something in the old version. >> (As for dissonance... A Sword stands straight and rigid, while > >Except when it's a saber or a scimitar. It's straight on *one* side, though, right? >> War can be dirty and tricksy. (or so I'd figure) > >Failing to retreat when it is sensible is not tricksy. I said *can* be... This is why sensible people order their War-Servitors to "retreat if it becomes clear you cannot win"... (Along with telling your Malakim that keeping a low profile is often better than smiting evil.) [...] >I think that those dissonance conditions are simply wrong. And I also >think that failing to put the Archangel of War in charge of the War is >culpable. He should have been ordered to take the job, if necessary. Well, he used to. Your game, mix and match dissonance and whatnot as you see fit. O:> [Still dealing with non-urgent email from the 400 messages from vacation] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 00:24:40 +0100 From: Samuel Ranzato Subject: AW: IN> Malakite and dissonance - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD1D5E.622EAF80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Assume the Balseraph makes you swear on something it knows you won't = want > to dishonour ;-) ie. Swear on your sword and by your honour that = you'll do > XYZ. > (Nb. If I were the Malakite I'd just tell the Bal 'If anything happens = to > that mortal you're going to die. You know it, I know it, he knows it. = Let > him go and I'll give you a count of 10 to start running'. Naturally = I'd > count quickly ;) ) > jo There was also an honorable mention in the original about the Balseraph = being a former mentor of the Malakim. If he whipped his a$$ in training, would you seriously believe a = Balseraph of his experience would be impressed by idle threats. Me = neither. But what I think is more important, in contradiction to the line used = above, is that a Malakite should be careful about not underestimating an = adversary. That will kill a Malakim faster than you can say Discord. And even though the Malakim aren't afraid of dying in a battle with a = diabolic, they are cunning and not stupid warriors who most assuredly = not make idle threats. Samuel Ranzato - Malakim of Laurence, wielder of the Sword, touched upon = by Gabriel's creative fires. s.ranzato@tip.nl ICQ 6756263 - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD1D5E.622EAF80 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IhgXAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYANAEAAAEAAAAMAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAATwAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAGluX25vbWluZS1sQGxp c3RzLmlvLmNvbQBTTVRQAGluX25vbWluZS1sQGxpc3RzLmlvLmNvbQAAHgACMAEAAAAFAAAAU01U UAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAABkAAABpbl9ub21pbmUtbEBsaXN0cy5pby5jb20AAAAAAwAVDAEAAAADAP4P BgAAAB4AATABAAAAGwAAACdpbl9ub21pbmUtbEBsaXN0cy5pby5jb20nAAACAQswAQAAAB4AAABT TVRQOklOX05PTUlORS1MQExJU1RTLklPLkNPTQAAAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgEAAAACAfYPAQAAAAQA AAAAAAACrjsBBIABACAAAABBVzogSU4+IE1hbGFraXRlIGFuZCBkaXNzb25hbmNlAKkKAQWAAwAO AAAAzgcBAAoAAAAYACgABgAmAQEggAMADgAAAM4HAQAKAAAAEQAzAAYAKgEBCYABACEAAAAzQzIw MTY1NjRFODlEMTExODQzNTAwRUYwNUMxMDAwMADDBgEDkAYACAYAABQAAAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAA AAAACwApAAEAAAADAC4AAAAAAAMANgAAAAAAQAA5AGDaA8JVHb0BHgBwAAEAAAAgAAAAQVc6IElO PiBNYWxha2l0ZSBhbmQgZGlzc29uYW5jZQACAXEAAQAAABYAAAABvR1VwfyTTm1iiU4R0YQ1AO8F wQAAAAAeAB4MAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AHwwBAAAAEQAAAHMucmFuemF0b0B0aXAubmwAAAAA AwAGEMYKkgoDAAcQmAMAAB4ACBABAAAAZQAAAEFTU1VNRVRIRUJBTFNFUkFQSE1BS0VTWU9VU1dF QVJPTlNPTUVUSElOR0lUS05PV1NZT1VXT05UV0FOVFRPRElTSE9OT1VSOy0pSUVTV0VBUk9OWU9V UlNXT1JEQU5EQllZT1UAAAAAAgEJEAEAAAB2BAAAcgQAAKEHAABMWkZ1j5YToP8ACgEPAhUCpAPk BesCgwBQEwNUAgBjaArAc2V0bjIGAAbDAoMyBNYCAHCMcnESIAhQbWljBgS7BeACgzMDxgcTAoB9 CoCLCM8J2TsW7zI1NQKABwqBDbELYG5nMTA0wxUQCwNsaTM2DfALVYsS8gwBYwBBaSA+CuHPC2QV EgwBE6BvdAWQBUCKQQQQdQeAIHRoHjAGQgdAEfByYXBoIFUAwGsHkXkIYCAD4GVfCsECIB/AA3AS AGgLgGeEIGkFQGtub3cfdKp3AiAnBUB3AHB0CoeHGy8cPx1IdG8gZAQAhmgCIAhhIDstKSDw/GUu BgAf5h+RBcAD4AWwzGQgAHAoMGJ5J5QmJU0eUGEFQB+RJ2wDIGSGbwqFJDBYWVouIn9HI48knwVA KE5iJvBJ3mYuwCHABJAeNE0HQB9AEyEAHjBJJygwanVzzSWhZSoRHlUgJy7RAHDmeSCkEcBwcAnw BCAlwP8rPyxPLV8loSmSBGAAIDFxcynSL0FnbyDCJcMm4Vn3H6EhMiDxLC7xOLceYSE0+yEAJvBM EgAzHzQvNT8FQD0gsG03gShDMEAqEWdppnYeMB+SYSAFoHUCMH8gIC7gGhAlsjCgCsAFQHLXQBAD ABnwJybwTimgCHD9B0BsKKAwQTr/PA89HwVAqT/0cXUUIGtCUTsmsL4pCoVCv0PPRN8FQGozCPcL GUiLSwVUHmAvQSIwBCD/HqE+kikDHuACYB4wB4ACMF5pIDELgB5DBbBpP0BunzFxAaAIYDZCHnpi ZSDC+z/QAhByB4AFwE9CBbFAUd0veG0rJi7RHmF3ILAykecoMCCwTgEkJE+zHuALgOcgwTkgIdB1 bCgwH5MGcd0IYHNCUVIAGrBlP2E/0GcemEBRVaJleDKgCIFu3mNNwVcDUgAg8G0ToAeQ8xHwKHNp ZE8RHlAW8CmganMm8E0eMG5SEB5RcvsrJksFQlDxVSApoS8AIKL+ayDwBCA2sVsDNsICMDkg/0/B BaACMB7gJfAdsE+CJcH3HlIasF0AIDCQVXFQwT9gf2CBMtEpkj/QL7cmEVq1Y/8KwA3AVxBQtSFA BUBAEASB/weQT3AAwE9wUjIDoGEgP2D7EeAKwHkm8E2AKaED8CoR7y/wKhFjtj5gZk3wHZApY9cn g2TxIEFhKKBEBAAFoXpkKyZBKGFYcU/SCGBn3x8QU5koQBbwIfJhA1ALcPMoMEBRZHkgw2cxKIAp oP50TxED8B5QP8El8FDBGrD+YzkgHlEooGURP+BBVChDs2XiMKB1cG5xIjByV7H/EeBVESXQBGAw oU3wHgAW8b9CUWXiHzJb7EcsBhBtClC1AyBSAHB6KaAl0C1pB/lAUUxhdFFaUVbRCJBXIP9SwVNl JxAoEXDhCGARsFVxN3KwIDEokUcBoAiBbCfPBCAFAFxxP1JmaVtRKyYXXKAe4HeTQE9wcC5uAmxU VkNRIDY3NfA2MjYzRy4afxz9RywvgF+Bb4J8FhEAhwAAAAMAEBABAAAAAwAREAAAAABAAAcwoC5p zlQdvQFAAAgwoC5pzlQdvQEeAD0AAQAAAAUAAABBVzogAAAAAAMADTT9NwAAzco= - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD1D5E.622EAF80-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 18:27:04 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Seraphim and Forms At 2:16 PM -0500 1/9/98, York H. Dobyns wrote: >Casca writes (in his signature): > >>"...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of >>His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: >>with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their >>feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the >>doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." >> -- Isaiah 6:2,4 > >Hm, I had forgotten that passage (sounds familiar, so I'm sure I've seen >it in the past.) Seraphim with *feet*? We don't know -- they were covered with wings. >Now, do I recall correctly that in the Celestial realms, you always and >only wear your Celestial form, no other options being available? In our games (and fiction flying around), the assumption has been that a celestial can, if it chooses, manifest a humanoid form instead of having a dexterous tail (Bal/Seraph) or levitating things about with handy licks of flame (Ofanim). In that case, the celestial not being the corporeal, *BOTH* forms are fairly evident. This is especially common in Superiors. So Gabriel in CelForm is at once a collection of firey wheels spinning like that thing from Contact, and a beautiful woman (or man). Malphas is at once a nasty icky mass of roiling muck and an older man of mean disposition (or very charming, depending...). Asmodeus is at once a tall, burning-eyed human, and the scaly draconic horror dripping slime all over the carpet. (Except most people really don't want to look at that aspect, so they don't.) Many of Maya's Balseraphs, for instance (in her Caliah stories) manifest as very naga-like -- they have a humanoid torso, with hands, and the tail and wings (however many; I've been fudging and not saying) and sometimes the six eyes as well. I go a bit more otherworldly (I'm a furry) and have Seraphim wandering around collecting books in Yves' Library by coiling around them and tucking the occasional small item in their shoulder feathers -- they use mouth, wings and tail to manipulate, and do quite well at it. I haven't had to deal with the Ofanite in celform yet, though... >Seraphic Celestial forms (and Ofanim) have the rather awkward trait of >lacking any kind of manipulatory appendages. On the trivial level, this >raises the question of how (in the initial confrontation of Lucifer's >Fall) exactly did the Seraph Michael grapple with Lucifer and fling him >from Heaven; the mind boggles at the notion of a couple of winged >serpents "wrestling", let alone being able to locomote while so doing. > >More seriously, would it lend more of an air of "otherworldliness" to >the characters to require Seraphim and Ofanim newly assigned to Earth >(in human vessels) to spend some time getting used to having hands? I would have no problem doing that. Even the humanoid ones are usually upset mildly at losing their wings. Seraphim think of their vessels as short, squat, and clumsily jointed, without enough eyes for a proper ripple-blink, etc. [Still dealing with non-urgent email from the 400 messages from vacation] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 18:57:52 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Questions, apparently not frequently asked At 6:42 PM -0500 1/8/98, York H. Dobyns wrote: >I have some questions about In Nomine that weren't addressed by the FAQ >that arrives when one subscribes to this list. Karakash, put in a link to the errata pages, eh? >1.) There are two different systems given in In Nomine for purchasing a >Role. One (around p. 40) gives the cost of a Role as (Level x Status)/2. >The other (around p. 70) gives the cost as (Level x 2) + (Status -1) x2. >Which of these was intended? The p. 43 one. I believe that's in the errata. ( http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine and follow the links around for a short while. ) >2.) Continuing on the subject of Roles, it is mentioned that any Role >includes a "free" skill of background knowledge in how to be the Role is>, with (IIRC) a level equal to the Role's. It is also >mentioned that mortals don't have Roles, since they have real lives in >the Symphony. Does a mortal also get an appropriate "free" background >knowledge skill, for whatever she is or does, or does she have to pay >character points for it? If it is a "free" skill, what is its Level? Um. I think this is probably a GM call -- in the rules-light tradition of IN, most humans have skills in their jobs. You can do this by letting them purchase a "role" as a job-packet (excluding any skills that the Role tells a celestial to buy) or as some kind of generic skill (Knowledge: Private Detective) or just give it to the human as a freebie, probably equal to Ethereal/Corporeal Forces (depending on what the job is doing). >3.) Why does it cost more, during character design (and, by implication, >when spending points to improve a character in the course of play) to own >a Talisman that grants you a skill, or a Relic that grants you a Song, >than it costs simply to know the skill or Song yourself? Because you can loan your Talisman out, you can store extra essence in your Relic to fuel the Song (useful when you're empty!), and some other things like that. You can also, if you've put your relic in a handy shape like a sword or something, know exactly where you left it (on a decent Perception roll) when you need it. And a Talisman can boost your skill above 6. Which is a very scary thing. >4.) Is there a reason why, after giving the first five major Choirs >Hebrew or pseudo-Hebrew names, the two "lowest" have Greek (Kyriotates) >and Latinate (Mercurian) names? Was this a deliberate design choice in >the English-language version, or an inheritance from the original French >game? Fnord. >5.) The discussion on Numinous Corpus songs mentions that two attacks, >e.g. one with claws and one with hooves, can be performed in the same >round, provided that one is based on Strength and the other on Agility. >Nowhere else, in either the combat section or the skills section, is the >notion of attacks based on Agility discussed; Fighting skill is >identified as based on Strength. Can this be clarified? I thought that was in the FAQ. Perhaps it's the errata. Karakash? (Fighting is based on Strength. Some other skills, such as Small Weapon, are based on Precision. This may be what's meant here...) [Still dealing with non-urgent email from the 400 messages from vacation] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 19:03:03 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: Anime off-topic (Re: IN> IN Anime movie trailer : 2) At 3:41 PM -0600 1/9/98, Redneck Gaijin wrote: >>At 2:12 PM -0600 1/8/98, Redneck Gaijin wrote: >>>and manic. And definitely >>>>Malakite of Fire with attitude. >>>> >>>But that would make the other two Priestesses Malakim as well- who would >>>they fall under? }:-{D >> >>Hm. I don't know if they're Malakim or not. Maybe. > >They refer to each other as 'sisters.' Mmmmm.... I dunno, could be a sorta title. > I think Air >>would have been an Elohite of some kind (*not* Wind, I think, though >>Creation in service to Wind might be possible). Water is a Novalisian. > >Actually, I'd have Miz Mistahl (Water) be a Malakite of Novalis and Afura >Mann (Wind) be a Malakite of Jean. Okay, I could see that. So what's Ifurita in this case? Hm... Grigori? >>>Ai Orikasa doesn't have a squeaky voice. (Quite frankly, if I could marry a >>>voice- -just- a voice- I'd propose to Ai Orikasa's voice. }:-{D ) >> >>Which character would that be? (Yeah, Ryoga's voice is pretty >>close to that effect...) > >Among many roles, she is best known here in America as the original seiyuu >for Ryoko from the various TenchiMuyo! series. Ahhhhh! Okay. Now that we have the close-caption TV, we need to hear it in the *original*. >>That's assuming that resonances work on Superiors. O;> / }>:| >>I mean, can you just see some poor Lilim trying to resonate >>Laurence? (Though he might think it was amusing to let her see: >>Needs to have Heaven win the War against Hell. (Yeah, >>let's see some poor Daughter do *that* hook, sure...)) Or >>Dommie. (Daughter limping away going "owowow" with an >>excedrine headache.) > >("And I thought Andrealphus was kinky! Great blazes of Sheol, but I'm going >to be off sex for a century or two....") (.... I can think of some of my characters, PC and NPC, who would be amused as all getout...) [Still dealing with non-urgent email from the 400 messages from vacation] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 19:00:36 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Malakite and dissonance At 2:43 PM +0100 1/9/98, Samuel Ranzato wrote: [...] >I decided for my character that a human life saved now, was worth the >dissonance for letting him go. >So, we made a promise that if the human was returned to us, we'd let him >go..for now. > >My question is thus, did I do the right thing? >Is a human life more important to an angel (even a Malakim) than his >oath(s) ?? It depends on the Malakite and the Archangel he serves. If you're one of Novalis', for instance, then you *DEFINITELY* did the right thing, and Novalis might remove the dissonance. (Especially if you nail the nasty demon later.) However, p. 49 of the Angelic Players Guide (aka, the APG), has useful words of wisdom... "Wise Malakim realize the oath enforces no time limit. They will reconnoiter, stalk and plan until they can launch their best attack, or until their hand is forced by circumstances. Once all leads and advantages have been explored, all hesitation ends, for an evil escaping while they wait also triggers dissonance." Also, "If a Malakite is forced to choose *which* of two evils will escape, he earns no dissonance for choosing the lesser!" Getting the dissonance then is probably the right thing for that situation. You might be able to have that note of dissonance lifted by tracking down and slaying the Balseraph later. (That's probably what *I* would do... Especially considering one of Laurence's Servitor Attunements -- the Hunt thingy one, IIRC.) At 3:52 PM +0000 1/9/98, Hart, Joanna wrote: >My vote goes to 'Tell the demon you agree, then try to toast it after it has >released the mortal', but I'm not sure how strictly honorable that might be >considered. Does depend a lot on what the Malakite's vows are and its view >of its own priorities. If you have any vows that equate to 'protecting the >weak' or 'keeping your word' then that makes the choice easier but its >definitely a dilemma, I think. p. IN 101: "If you see a Malakite tell a [...] demon live if he cooperates, you've just seen a Malakite lie to some poor bastard demon who's about to die." So yes, unless you're sworn to keep your word... "Of *course* we'll let you go, Mr. Balseraph!" Which doesn't work as well if he's got some cute escape done, but yeah, well. At 4:16 PM +0000 1/9/98, Kevin Walsh wrote: >> Unless another of your oaths was to always keep your word, you should have >> jumped the Balseraph as soon as he let go of the human. Malakim don't >> have to keep their word to anybody (especially demons) when they promise >> to let evil go, unless they have an oath that requires them to do so. >> >And a smart Balseraph would know this and require the Malakite to take >that oath, at least a one-use oath. Malakim are not Lilim!!!! They can't do one-time-oaths, last time I looked. Each oath a Malakite takes is FOREVER. I suppose a Bal could try to make one take a "keep your word" oath on the spot, though. Of course, you'd have to have the Seraph *say* that the Malakite had actually sworn a *binding* oath. (Or hear it from the Malakite in celestial form, sung angelically, in the language that holds no lies.) At 2:40 PM +0000 1/9/98, Kevin Walsh wrote: [...] >Moral dilemmas. What fun. (It's why I play... O:> ) >> He was (according to the gamesmaster) one of my former Seraphim >> instructors in the use of the sword. I knew that he was around since the >> first war, when Lucifer fell from grace and all. > >I often wonder about character longevity. I've avoided characters being >anywhere near that old. I sort of assume that if someone's that old and >they're not Word-bound with lots of Servitors, that they're doing >something wrong. That's also addressed in the APG, y'know... O;> [Still dealing with non-urgent email from the 400 messages from vacation] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 19:32:41 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Words of the Fallen At 12:49 AM -0400 1/9/98, gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: >On Wed, 7 Jan 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >>>Like im convinced that there isnt a Archangel of Love-- just a angel >>>in the service to Novalis :) >>Well, whoever holds the Word had better be careful. Andre might not >>like people who assume his old Word... (APG, p. 9) > >This reminds me of a conversation I had with one of my players. How >jealous are Fallen Angels of their former Words? Do they still consider >it their Word, or do they forget about it. I know the APG says (or at >least implies) that Outcasts get to keep their words, and that they can >only lose their word when they Fall, but what are their feelings about >their old words? > >What prompted this was the fact that the Word of Light is still up for >grabs in Heaven. My friend (who plays a Mercurian of Laurence) said that >he would never even consider trying for that Word because he would be >concerned that Lucifer would show up in person to kick his butt. Would >that happen, and why or why not? It's your game, you're the GM, you decide... Personally, I'd think that Princes would be pretty snitty at anyone who wanted their old Word. Just from the obnoxiousness point, if not possessiveness. "Who is this runt who thinks he can be the Angel of Fear/Love/whatever-Kobal-was/etc.? Why, I was a thousand times more an angel than he'll *ever* be. I'll just administer my *own* little test for his worthiness..." Also, the Seraphim Council might be a little leery of doling out Words whose previous owner Fell. There might be some contamination left over. [Still dealing with non-urgent email from the 400 messages from vacation] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 19:32:53 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> A resonance question At 1:16 PM +0000 1/9/98, Kevin Walsh wrote: >> > Tell him nice try. Any failed resonance roll means you can't use it on >> > that subject (at least for the same purpose) for a number of hours equal to >> > the check digit. And on *any* failed resonance roll with a check digit of >> > 6, the resonance becomes useless for a period of hours! (In Nomine, p. >> > 56-57). >> >Unfortunately, I've noticed two exceptions. Under the Calabites, it >specifies a number of minutes equal to the check digit of the failed roll. >Under the Habbalah, it says that a failed resonance roll has no effect >(bottom of p. 146). Presumably, this statement shouldn't be there, or >should be modified to state that it doesn't affect other emotions the >Habbalah wishes to inflict, but there it is. The Calabite one is a Band-specific exceptions. Anything that doesn't have one, go with the p. 57 stuff. The Habbalite one refers to the lashback-effect of a resisted resonance roll. If the roll simply *fails*, then the Habbie suffers no lashback -- and can't use his resonance on that target for a while. [Still dealing with non-urgent email from the 400 messages from vacation] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #559 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.