From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Jan 19 18:46:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA27160 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 18:46:46 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id SAA32193 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 18:41:56 -0600 Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 18:41:56 -0600 Message-Id: <199801200041.SAA32193@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #575 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, January 19 1998 Volume 01 : Number 575 In this digest: Re: IN> Superiors: Old Testement or New Testement Re: IN> Last Night's Quotes Re: IN> Old Testament or New Testament Re: IN> Old Testament or New Testament Re: IN> Superiors: Old Testement or New Testement Re: IN> Old Testament or New Testament Re: IN> Old Testament or New Testament Re: IN> Definitions, please Re: IN> Loss of Superior Re: IN> Old Testament or New Testament Re: IN> TNATC Movie Trailer (at last!) IN> IN: Angel of Injustice (Long) Re: IN> Old Testament or New Testament Re: IN> TNATC Movie Trailer (at last!) Re: IN> Old Testament or New Testament Re: IN> Old Testament or New Testament Re: IN>Heavenly Judgement attunement IN> Evil Idea Re: IN> TNATC Movie Trailer (at last!) Re: IN> TNATC Movie Trailer (at last!) Re: IN> Evil Idea Re: IN>Heavenly Judgement attunement Re: IN> TNATC Movie Trailer (at last!) IN> Christianity in In Nomine. IN> Symphonic Disturbance and Relativity. Re: IN> New Archangel: Sophia Re: IN> New Archangel: Sophia Re: IN>Heavenly Judgement attunement IN> In Nomine, sideways ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 11:46:31 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Superiors: Old Testement or New Testement Emily Dresner wrote: > I've seen written in a bunch of places (the good olde Gustav Davidson > resource being one) that Raphael was one of the three Angels who went to > talk to Abraham, with Gabriel and Michael. [I have also seen this as > God/Gabriel/Michael.] I have also seen that Raphael bound Jacob's wounds > after his tussle with Satan/God/Michael/Sammael/my brother. All of this > is what, Genesis? Yes, the events are in Genesis. The angels are not named there, though. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 11:49:30 -0500 (EST) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Last Night's Quotes On Mon, 19 Jan 1998, Emily Dresner wrote: > True enough, although I just make up stuff when an intervention happens. > Randomness is fun. Randomness is happy. As my players can attest, two Infernal interventions when assaulting a Vapulan recording studio's transmission tower are Bad Things. Imagine little satellite dishes working like particle beam cannons... > What I mean is that the first time GM might get flustered on little stuff: > rules, characters doing completely random things, interventions, people > arguing, no characters working together, the entire universe exploding... > you know, small stuff. Don't sweat it, it's nothing to get into a fit > about. (Canon, yes. The universe exploding, no.) A few things I learned from my game last night: 1. A combat-monster with the Ofanim of War attunement is damn annoying. (Blasted Seraph kept damaging the emitters before they could zap him.) 2. A resonated Ofanite, using the Corporeal Song of Motion, does incredible damage with flying kicks. 3. The only sensible ones in the party are the Elohite and Mercurian. Speaking of the universe exploding, here's a vignette from last night. The party finally destroys the VapuTech by making the capacitor explode. Over 100 points of Essence are released into the Symphony, one and a half stories of the building are demolished, and the previous disturbance level was about 24. I give up on the numbers and describe it thusly: "First there was the Symphony, proceeding along smoothly. Then the fight started, and various intruments started acting acting up or playing out of tune. Then the tower exploded, and the fat tuba player in the back took a deep breath and went *blaaaaat!* over everything." San Francisco is gonna be ringing for a long time..... - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 11:56:28 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Old Testament or New Testament > > I still go along with the theory that Eli was Jesus. > > In Paradise Lost, it was Jesus who did the actual work of Creation. It's > always nice when things mesh. > > Call me a cynic, but what about Kobal as Jesus? Then again, if he had > been, he'd probably still be chuckling non-stop... > As much as this gave me a good momentary chuckle, I sort of doubt it, although I'm not going to dismiss it altogether. (The image of this in my head of my Kobal being Christ is actually pretty funny, and would work in a sick and twisted sort of way in my universe. Let's put it on the block for consideration later.) The only problem I see is that Yonder Demon Prince would have to have some sort of Destinylike ability to see the future. At the time there were dozens of Prophets, all roaming around the countryside and preaching doomsday messages. Granted, I assume he would know that riding into Jerusalam during Passover would likely get him killed in a spectacular way, but he would have to: * Meet John the Baptist and hang out with the Essenes. * Know that John would die at the hands of Herod before Passover. * Figure out a way to piss of the Pharisees yet still get killed in the Roman manner. * His disciples would have to carry on his name long after he died. We can assume that much of the miracles, stories of divine conception, etc. was just an embellishment to keep the story moving. He MIGHT have been able to arrange some of this, if he was slick. And being a demon prince, he'd HAVE to be slick. Hmmm. A sick and twisted joke. A really sick and twisted joke that really got out of hand in a really bad way. Think of what Dominic and Laurence would think if they knew. *scratch chin* *ponder deeply* - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 12:05:31 -0500 From: Jesse Subject: Re: IN> Old Testament or New Testament >> I still go along with the theory that Eli was Jesus. This explains >> a lot in terms of attunements and dissonance, and it is just a fun theory >> for scenario/campaign ideas. >> >Actually, given the dissonance, I reckon it's more likely that he's >Aleister Crowley. Okay why does everyone keep bad mouthing Crowley? It is really strange of everybody to see him as some force of evil running around. As far a s I understand he ways just a wacky mystic and a former member of the Society of Jesus. In fact Crowley once dated Sonia Green, the same Green who latter married HP Lovecraft. Some scholars belive that this is where Lovecraft got the idea of the Necronamicon. - -Jesse X-Disclaimer: The DCUNS is not responsible for the content of this message ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 12:15:33 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Superiors: Old Testement or New Testement > > I've seen written in a bunch of places (the good olde Gustav Davidson > > resource being one) that Raphael was one of the three Angels who went to > > talk to Abraham, with Gabriel and Michael. [I have also seen this as > > God/Gabriel/Michael.] I have also seen that Raphael bound Jacob's wounds > > after his tussle with Satan/God/Michael/Sammael/my brother. All of this > > is what, Genesis? > > Yes, the events are in Genesis. The angels are not named there, though. > > Earl > But it's always useful to read books about the Bible, too. :) *thhhpt* No, they aren't named per se, but apparently they got names in the Middle Ages sometime. Since I'm at work, I'm not sitting in my pile o' reference books. I can post it sometime later, though. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 12:17:25 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Old Testament or New Testament Jesse wrote: > Okay why does everyone keep bad mouthing Crowley? It is really > strange of everybody to see him as some force of evil running around. But he *wanted* to be bad-mouthed. I mean, when you go around styling yourself "the Great Beast" and signing letters "666," and such, you are clearly not cultivating a reputation as a pillar of righteousness. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:24:30 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> Old Testament or New Testament >On Mon, 19 Jan 1998 d.ranzato@bpa.vnu.com wrote: > >> I still go along with the theory that Eli was Jesus. > >In Paradise Lost, it was Jesus who did the actual work of Creation. It's >always nice when things mesh. > >Call me a cynic, but what about Kobal as Jesus? Then again, if he had >been, he'd probably still be chuckling non-stop... > >Steve. I watched a series about Jesus that sort of summed him up as a political figure merely using the force of the Old Testament to back his claims and he only became Messianic after his death. In this light, he could just merely have been an effective tool. I would have to give the credit for that to Janus. Jesus liked to be on the go. Heck, the guy wouldn't even stay buried for more than three days. The revival of the One god faith started altering the Roman system of both religion and government. Janus is probably sad about the way that Christianity has slowly crystalized into a very stagnant religion, but its someone elses dollar now. Armand ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:24:30 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> Definitions, please >Ni Ke Hsin wrote: > >> The one exception is the fairies. There is a small body of >> folklore in which various members of the fairy races are converted. > >I recommend to the list "The Discarded Image" by C. S. Lewis >(author of "The Screwtape Letters"). This book is an introduction >to the medieval worldview, and has sections on angels that might >be interesting to IN players, but there is a whole chapter devoted >to faeries. Lewis points out that the medieval mind loved to tidy up >and classify, but could never quite decide what to do with fairies. >They had many different theories about them and never settled on one. >These theories included: > > - they are a class of angel > - they are a class of demon > - they are a class of neutral celestial (in IN terms) > - they are a class of the dead (a sort of ghost or undead) > - they are a separate species of rational animal, possibly unfallen > >Earl There is a novel that I read that made a comparison of traditional elves to aliens. Both species are more "elegant(?)" forms of humanity. Their appearances are often accompanied by bright lights. People that are visited by them refer time being lost (usually seven years with the elves). What does canon think on aliens anyway? The first questions are they real? 2) How do they fit in the "God created everything" universe? Just got a bit curious with the idea, Armand ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:42:02 -0800 (PST) From: Querent Subject: Re: IN> Loss of Superior Hmmm...tough one. I don't see any problem with serving the same word. Certainly the Tsayadim set a precedent. I don't think the celestials still *hold* the word, but certainly they would most likely still want to serve it. After all, it's in their being. Bob the malakim of knowledge is now simply Bob the malakim. He still serves knowledge, but he has no word, nor does he serve a word bound celestial. I do think there would seem to be a great deal of pressure for the remaining celestials to join a new superior. Heaven/Hell wouldn't want to run the risk of thousands of new outcasts/renegades running around unchecked. The superiors would scoop up as many as they can use. As for attunements... On the one hand: A superior grants an attunement to any he wishes to. This attunement comes from the superior. He gave it to you, and he can take it away. When falling or redeeming, all attunements are lost, implying that being severed from heaven severs the tie to the superior. On the other hand, superiors *can* give their attunements to members of the opposite side. So maybe it's the act of falling/redeeming itself rather than some prohibition. Or maybe during falling/redemption it's a given that a superior will pull his support and remove the attunement. On the other hand: An attunement changes the inherent way a celestial interacts with the symphony. A superior grants it. A superior can remove it. But nowhere does it either state or imply (at least that I could find) that a superior is necessary to maintain it once granted. An argument could be made either way. - ---John L Veazey wrote: > > Question: > > When a superior ,such as Raphael or Legion or Uriel, is removed from play > and leaves behind servitors, can they continue to follow their supperiors > word? I know that the Tsayadim (Marches, 5) are a special case. They > continued to purify at the cost of becoming outcasts. > But could theses servitors not continue to follow their AA word, keep thier > attunement, and remain within the ranks of Heaven? == --Querent USELESS FACT: The name Led Zeppelin was first coined by Keith Moon, drummer for The Who. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 18:56:19 +0000 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Old Testament or New Testament At 09:24 19/01/98 -0800, you wrote: > > >I watched a series about Jesus that sort of summed him up as a political >figure merely using the force of the Old Testament to back his claims and >he only became Messianic after his death. A view I have heard is that St Paul was more or less totally responsible for Christianity and Jesus was just another would-be Jewish revolutionary (of which there were many at the time) who got rather manipulated by other political factions (including Paul), who basically rewrote his story, borrowing miracles from the old testament prophets, in order to give it a broader appeal and get recruits for their own factions. (has anyone read 'the Passover Plot'? I don't honestly recommend it, but its sort of interesting if you want to look at a conspiracy theroy kind of view) jo - ---------- "I like getting into hot water, it keeps me clean." G. K. Chesterton jhart@btinternet.com -- http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~jhart/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 18:58:11 +0000 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> TNATC Movie Trailer (at last!) At 10:54 19/01/98 +0000, you wrote: >> >ObNitpick. < ... > > >Apart from that, it's nice. But I'm a chronic nitpicker. > > Be fair Kevin, its supposed to be a Hollywood epic. Its pretty much in genre to ignore 'real history' if you think you can do better ;-) jo - ---------- "I like getting into hot water, it keeps me clean." G. K. Chesterton jhart@btinternet.com -- http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~jhart/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 13:14:50 -0600 From: "Yeager, Alex" Subject: IN> IN: Angel of Injustice (Long) > In the midst of my research for the lighthearted satire and action > I'm preparing for my winter convention schedule, this bastard popped > up. Use sparingly. > > Mastema, Angel of Injustice > > Stropharial: I have a question, Master. > Yves: And you seek my understanding. > S: I have been studying the record of Mastema. > Y: I can appreciate your confusion. He holds a unique position > among the angelic host. > S: It would seem that his Word is...incompatible with our Goals. > Y: And yet he is honored in Dominic's sight, and valued by the Hosts. > S: How can one who causes the righteous to suffer- > Y: Not only the righteous. Many evil men, from kings to slaves, have > also felt his power. > S: But why the righteous? Look at the example of Moses... > Y: Yes. A fine example of his worth, and one that many of the Host > doubted at first. > S: Did he truly try to kill Moses? > Y: He caused Moses to be attacked, with the intent to kill him. The > difference is subtle, but vital. I have often wondered why the > Biblical record leaves out the entire story, except for that > oblique reference in Exodus... > S: But, because of his power supposedly manifested at the hands > of the pharoah's sorcerers, the events were put into motion that > led to the slaughter of thousands of innocent Egyptians! > Y: And because he strengthened the pharaoh's resolve against Moses, > the slaughter of the Egyptian firstborn could have been avoided? > S: All those people...not all of them were evil... > Y: No, they were not. But Moses had a Destiny unlike any that had > been seen before him, and Mastema's assistance provided the proper > impetus to cause his Destiny - and the Destinies of so many of his > people - to be achieved. > S: But why is Injustice necessary? > Y: Why should Laurence use hammer, anvil and fire to forge his > swords? Because certain Destinies must be forged from adversity. > We cannot allow the Fallen to create tests that are beyond a > human's ability to overcome; nor can we neglect their potential by > lack of encouragement on our part. Mastema has executed his Word > since the Fall with judicious restraint and with few failures, and > his respect amongst the Angelic is as great as the hatred and fear > he causes in the Infernal. > S: I confess I still do not fully understand...and I do not envy his > burden. > Y: Mastema has felt the squirming insides of many a demon, many a > Fate...I do not envy him that. But he has also touched the > greatest Destinies that humanity has known. That...that is > something that even Archangels cherish. > > Mastema is a Cherub, an angel who predates the Fall. At the > conclusion of the First War, Mastema pleaded with the Higher Powers > that there could be a need for demons to be used, and Mastema was > granted the Song of Possession (there is speculation that he may > have been one of the original wielders of this Song) and the Forces > necessary to possess a sizable percentage of the newly Fallen. > (Tradition states that he was given power over one tenth of the > Demonic Host.) Due to his success at defending his Word and the > explosion of demons, many of relatively weak power, he today can > possess and manipulate a much larger percentage of the Infernal. > > He is very powerful (probably in the 30-40 Forces range), but not an > Archangel; a loner, his nature is to remain in the field, performing > tasks at the request of Dominic and, on occasion, Yves. > (Yves and Mastema are very close, which is odd from a personality > standpoint, less so from his history of destiny encouragement. > Novalis and Eli find his methodology distasteful; most others are > neutral to supportive.) > > On the Infernal side, he is universally hated, with servitors across > the board having borne the brunt of his machinations. In > particular, Kronos will personally intervene if any of his servitors > report evidence of Mastema's interference. > > Mastema can directly possess a human or celestial to fulfill a task, > or will use his Songs of Targeting (see below) to direct a certain > demon to interfere with a life. He will ultimately be protective of > a human with a bright Destiny (and is developing towards its > fulfillment). For Fated humans, or those actively working with > Infernals, he will still attune to them in order to strengthen their > resolve and abilities, and simply remove the attunement (yes, is > Will IS that high) when the desired fall from power has been > achieved. He is absolutely convinced in the appropriateness of his > means, and the only thing that has changed in the intervening years > is the strengthening of his contempt and cold disregard for the > Infernal and Fated it is his job to manipulate. (Think Jesuit > dominatrix with no safewords for the Fated/Fallen.) > > Typical plot hook: A group of PCs have been assigned to Mastema > for a mission. Their job is to support the friends and family of a > person who is being manipulated by Mastema in order to remove > him from some position of influence (CEO, scoutmaster, etc.) > The PCs will watch the elder angel systematically destroy every > good and helpful thing in the target's life, with behaviors in > the target's life becoming increasingly extreme (abuse, drug > use, lawbreaking, etc.) without any repercussions due to Mastema's > "protection". As the target's support system falls away (with the > requisite consolation and intervention from the PCs), there should > be some questions raised about the justification of Mastema's > actions. The "successful" completion on the adventure should leave > the PCs a bit reflective on the methodology sometimes employed by > Heaven. > > Random Overview of Abilities - Mastema has the Song of Possession at > autosuccess levels for most beings a PC group would generally > encounter. Other Songs include the Shields set, the Charm set, > Targeting set (see below), Ethereal Light, and Celestial Harmony. He > has the Cherubim, Ofanim, Elohim and Malakim of Dominic attunements, > as well as Incarnate Law and Heavenly Judgment. On the Destiny > side, he has Divine Destiny, Divine Logic (useful for justifying his > actions) and the Cherubim attunement. He also has Zadkiel's Succor > attunement (and others as plots may require/GM's discretion). > > Songs of Targeting > Corporal: Can cause a person engaged in a physical attack within Es > yds. (whether random or not) to refocus their attentions on the > target for min. equal to the check digit rolled. > Ethereal: Can create a "false positive" in a resonance used on the > target for Es hrs. Replace the check digit of the resonance roll > with the song's check digit and defined result (Note that this is > NOT reactive; this "programs" a target for a SPECIFIC result if a > SPECIFIC choir/band resonance is attempted. Use GM discretion for > enhanced resonance effects, especially if known ahead of time which > enhancement will be faced.) > Celestial: Nullifies a celestial barrier for a single effect (would > prevent a single-ability protective relic from working, or allow a > single effect to pass through Celestial Shields) The check digit > signifies the success in dropping the protection (6+ = completely > nullified), with the target vulnerable to that effect for Es hrs. > Disturbance (for all): check digit > > Suggestions/comments are, as always, encouraged/appreciated. > Alex Yeager YeagerAW@Maritz.com MIB 0230/FoL/INWO Local 23 > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 19:22:15 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Old Testament or New Testament > A view I have heard is that St Paul was more or less totally responsible > for Christianity and Jesus was just another would-be Jewish revolutionary > (of which there were many at the time) who got rather manipulated by other > political factions (including Paul), who basically rewrote his story, > borrowing miracles from the old testament prophets, in order to give it a > broader appeal and get recruits for their own factions. > > (has anyone read 'the Passover Plot'? I don't honestly recommend it, but > its sort of interesting if you want to look at a conspiracy theroy kind of > view) > Does that bear any resemblance to "The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail"? It makes fairly heavy use of this argument as a justification for its central tenets, which are: a) there is a secret society out there, called the Prieure de Sion, which controls everything (I'm exaggerating) b) it's purpose is to safeguard the descendants of Jesus and eventually place them on the throne of Europe c) it is persecuted by the Catholic Church, which fomented anti-semitism to strike indirectly at the descendants of Jesus. Allegedly it is for this reason that the Church allegedly killed the last effective Merovingian King, Dagobert II. d) the Merovingians were the descendants of Jesus, brought to France by Joseph of Arimathea e) the Holy Grail is a mistranslation of Sangraal, which is medieval French for Royal Blood, ie the blood of Jesus Some of the stuff is hilarious, like their citing of the emblem of a French petrol company, and the use of the Cross of Lorraine by the French resistance as evidence of the Prieure's involvement. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 19:26:33 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> TNATC Movie Trailer (at last!) > > Be fair Kevin, its supposed to be a Hollywood epic. Its pretty much in > genre to ignore 'real history' if you think you can do better ;-) > > I never said I could do better, even if I wasn't such a lazy bastard. (Case in point; I have five exams over the rest of the week.) But I am both a chronic nitpicker and a chronic rules-lawyer (though I like to think my characters are interesting as well), and to be honest I don't think I'm capable of changing this at this point in my life. But I could probably have refrained from commenting if he hadn't misspelled Deirdre. It's a pet hate of mine. Once I started, though... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 14:25:34 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Old Testament or New Testament Jo Hart wrote: > A view I have heard is that St Paul was more or less totally responsible > for Christianity and Jesus was just another would-be Jewish revolutionary > (of which there were many at the time) who got rather manipulated by other > political factions (including Paul), who basically rewrote his story, > borrowing miracles from the old testament prophets, in order to give it a > broader appeal and get recruits for their own factions. I have heard of this view. It is certainly true that Paul first introduced a lot of important themes of Christian theology. But not all of them. And Paul's own letters say virtually nothing about Jesus's life and the events in it (such as miracles). That is wholly done by the gospel authors, only one of which -- Luke -- is associated with Paul. Also, there are significant chunks of theology in the gospels, notably in John, and in the non-Pauline epistles. As to Jesus being one more revolutionary, the gospel stories seem to depict someone trying to stay *out* of the political forum for much of his career, who then makes an about-face and seems to deliberately court disaster by annoying the authorities. Of course, if you want to believe all this was fabricated later, have fun. You could also propose that Socrates is a fictional character made up by Plato, but it wouldn't get the same degree of attention. I realize this is drifting away from the game, so I'll shut up now. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 13:26:16 -0600 From: Corey Subject: Re: IN> Old Testament or New Testament At 06:56 PM 1/19/98 +0000, you wrote: >At 09:24 19/01/98 -0800, you wrote: >> >> >>I watched a series about Jesus that sort of summed him up as a political >>figure merely using the force of the Old Testament to back his claims and >>he only became Messianic after his death. > >A view I have heard is that St Paul was more or less totally responsible >for Christianity and Jesus was just another would-be Jewish revolutionary >(of which there were many at the time) who got rather manipulated by other >political factions (including Paul), who basically rewrote his story, >borrowing miracles from the old testament prophets, in order to give it a >broader appeal and get recruits for their own factions. > >(has anyone read 'the Passover Plot'? I don't honestly recommend it, but >its sort of interesting if you want to look at a conspiracy theroy kind of >view) To keep with the Messianic conspiracy theory, as well as a damned good film, go see "The Last Temptation of Christ". I thought it was one of the best films I've ever seen, the guy who I watched it with thought it was horrible, but then he liked American Werewolf in Paris. :) > > >jo >---------- >"I like getting into hot water, it keeps me clean." >G. K. Chesterton > > >jhart@btinternet.com -- http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~jhart/ > - --"From the seed of Belial came the vampire Nosferatu which liveth and feedeth on the blood of mankind and abideth, unredeemed, in horrible darkness, on the cursed earth of graveyards of the Black Death." -F.W. Murneau's "Nosferatu" (1922) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 19:38:02 GMT From: geographic@mindspring.com (Lee Davis) Subject: Re: IN>Heavenly Judgement attunement On Sun, 18 Jan 1998 12:04:05 +1100 (EST), Peter Frederick wrote: >Dear Querent >**Snipped** >The question hasn't been asked yet, but I think I would rule that if the >target fled from one Plane to another that the Sword followed him doing the >appropriate damage for the new Plane. Also that if called by a Celestial in >Celestial form on the Corporeal Plane targeting another Celestial in >Celestial form then it would do Celestial damage. > Ouch! My understanding was that a vessel pretty much protected someone from any form of celestial damage. Or do you mean to say that Heavenly Judgement is not useful when called by an angel in celestial form against a foe in his vessel? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:07:55 GMT From: maya@tcp.co.uk (GR Cogman) Subject: IN> Evil Idea (Note : I do not necessarily believe this or plan to use it, but...) There is, amid the Archangels of Heaven, one who schemes for spiritual and Temporal power. He tricked his previous Superior into overreaching himself and mounting a crusade against the inhabitants of the Marches, and then seized the vacant position when his Superior was "called upstairs". He controls the Armies of God with a ruthless fist, and attempts to extend the Catholic Church upon Earth to sway the hearts and minds of the humans. He adopts an innocent and honorable demeanor, convincing all that he is upright and virtuous, letting them forget precisely how far Malakim would _go_ to achieve their ends. Step forward, Laurence. (Be afraid. Be very afraid.) - --- Maya, Elohim of Eli in service to Blandine maya@tcp.co.uk - -- "There are those who say that wizards are subject to temptations and addictions beyond the understanding of ordinary men: the addiction to shape-changing, or to meditation under the influence of certain herbs and conditions of the stars; the obsession with knowledge, and the development of power. Yet this is not so. Temptation is temptation, obsession is obsession, and choice is choice." - Isar Chelladan, Precepts of Wizardry. -- "Dog Wizard", Barbara Hambly. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 14:24:08 -0600 From: tom timberlake Subject: Re: IN> TNATC Movie Trailer (at last!) Kevin Walsh wrote: > > >Em, I think, said: > > Be fair Kevin, its supposed to be a Hollywood epic. Its pretty much in > > genre to ignore 'real history' if you think you can do better ;-) > > > > > I never said I could do better, even if I wasn't such a lazy bastard. > (Case in point; I have five exams over the rest of the week.) > Actually, I think Em was saying that it is in genre to ignore real history if you, the producer/director of the film, feel that you can make it a better movie by including the anachronism[s]. tom, role of James the Stone Malakim, Heaven's Quai Chang Cain: "I am James; I will help you." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 15:42:52 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> TNATC Movie Trailer (at last!) > > >Em, I think, said: > > > Be fair Kevin, its supposed to be a Hollywood epic. Its pretty much in > > > genre to ignore 'real history' if you think you can do better ;-) > > > > > > > > I never said I could do better, even if I wasn't such a lazy bastard. > > (Case in point; I have five exams over the rest of the week.) > > > > Actually, I think Em was saying that it is in genre to ignore real > history if you, the producer/director of the film, feel that you can > make it a better movie by including the anachronism[s]. > > tom, role of James the Stone Malakim, Heaven's Quai Chang Cain: "I am > James; I will help you." Except I didn't say it. It's amazing how I get around sometimes, even disembodied! So it's hard for me to be saying anything. I keep getting sucked into threads I'm not participating on, strangely enough. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 16:17:49 -0500 From: Jesse Subject: Re: IN> Evil Idea and attempts to extend >the Catholic Church upon Earth to sway the hearts and minds of the humans. Yeah! Go team! Pontiff! Pontiff! Ra ra ra! - -Jesse X-Disclaimer: The DCUNS is not responsible for the content of this message ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 13:19:23 -0800 (PST) From: Querent Subject: Re: IN>Heavenly Judgement attunement In this argument, it seems clear to me that the argument is in favor of celestial damage *only* when both the attacker and the attackee are celestial. My original question was: If the one being attacked loses his corporeal vessel (either by choice, or by death) will this weapon proceed to do Celestial damage? - ---Lee Davis wrote: > > > > >The question hasn't been asked yet, but I think I would rule that if the > >target fled from one Plane to another that the Sword followed him doing the > >appropriate damage for the new Plane. Also that if called by a Celestial in > >Celestial form on the Corporeal Plane targeting another Celestial in > >Celestial form then it would do Celestial damage. > > > Ouch! My understanding was that a vessel pretty much protected > someone from any form of celestial damage. Or do you mean to say that > Heavenly Judgement is not useful when called by an angel in celestial > form against a foe in his vessel? > == --Querent USELESS FACT: The name Led Zeppelin was first coined by Keith Moon, drummer for The Who. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 98 17:34:49 -0500 From: David Wood Subject: Re: IN> TNATC Movie Trailer (at last!) Quoth "Kevin Walsh" on Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:54:12 +0000 (GMT) >> [Fade from black, exterior shot of a medieval village, circa 9th century. >> People are running around, roofs are on fire, and there are peasants, men >> in abnormally bright and shiny armor, and animals lying dead in the >> streets.] [nitpicks noted] >Apart from that, it's nice. But I'm a chronic nitpicker. Feh. It was my first attempt anyway. Any revisions, I'll just post to my site. And because I'm a meanie, I won't say exactly where in my site it's located until I make those changes. There will probably be other changes made, just to make it a bit more dramatic. - -David http://www.bluecrab.org/members/dwood/ "Gabriel doesn't HAVE hot flashes... Gabriel IS a hot flash!" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 01:15:21 -0600 (CST) From: Shadowcat Subject: IN> Christianity in In Nomine. Greetings. Someone mentioned that a person, had put up some ideas for modifying In Nomine to a christian bent. Seeing as the group I am getting together are all devout Christians, sans Fran and I, I would be interesting in looking at this sight. Does anyone have the URL for it? Shadowcat All cats may look upon a king. No comment on the Queen ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 17:16:17 -0600 From: ehp Subject: IN> Symphonic Disturbance and Relativity. Another question from the peanut gallery. Is the Symphony faster than light? Does it travel at the speed of sound? If a Symphonic disturbance occurs in London, will it circle the globe or penetrate it to get to Australia? The reason it comes to mind is that in the Fade to Gray PBeM game, a disturbance has been hidden by being locked into the sound of the Dawn... and in order for the entity in question to pull off that stunt, I had to make up some rules about it. In my current guestimation, the symphony represents an alteration of Relativity, in that there is a definable universal Present which is the Symphonic moment, and disturbances are immediate and noticcable anywhere in the present by any who are close enough to sence the perturbations and their echoes. The linking to Dawn stunt required a very impressive use of a song of Sheilds by a very powerful being... but in effect slowed the Symphinc repercussions to the speed of the earth's rotation. Comments/ answers? Evan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 19:28:07 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: Re: IN> New Archangel: Sophia > >>>>Ummm - Enlightenment belongs to Litheroy...<<< > > > >No, Litheroy is the Archangel of Revelation. > > I thought Litheroy was the angel of mood regulation. No, I guess > that's his twin brother Lithium. > > =================================================== > > Goombert strikes again! Dear lord, what have I created? Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 19:28:07 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: Re: IN> New Archangel: Sophia > >>>Ummm - Enlightenment belongs to Litheroy...<<< > > No, Litheroy is the Archangel of Revelation. Okay - you caught me. I thought that seemed mighty strange - so obvious a mistake, and Beth had not stomped on it viciously yet. I stand corrected... Though you have to admit, there is more than a bit of overlap between the words. > >>>Is this official now? Or are you speculating?<<< > > See the APG. For those of us who are waiting patiently for our stores to make it available? Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 19:28:07 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: Re: IN>Heavenly Judgement attunement > In this argument, it seems clear to me that the argument is in favor > of celestial damage *only* when both the attacker and the attackee > are celestial. > > My original question was: If the one being attacked loses his > corporeal vessel (either by choice, or by death) will this weapon > proceed to do Celestial damage? I, personally, would say yes, with one (okay, two) caveats. The sword can only follow the target into the Celestial realm if the Superior that controls that part allows it - in the case of vessel death, this is the target's Superior, usually. Most Demon Princes would stop it instantly, unless the target displeased them. And the sword cannot follow the target into Limbo. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 19:28:07 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: IN> In Nomine, sideways > > So, needless to say, you are going to have to break some of the eggs > > to make such an omelet (who-boy; talk about your mixed metaphors). > > For what I am doing, I broke just about all of the eggs; the > > Celestials are off, the Werewolves are really off, the Changelings > > were disassembeled and used for parts, and the Mages were weighed in > > the balance and found wanting. About the only ones that were close > > were the Camarillia vampires, and even they had the whole story > > behind Cain all wrong... > > It's simpler if you only make the Celestials delusional, or lying, > bearing in mind that the Caine myth is a fabrication. (Probably > better to have the Seraphs be delusional.) But would you mind > e-mailing me your explanation of the nature of the universe? Might as well spray the list with it: I've been hinting long enough. Note that this takes freely from plenty of books, as well, so some of it will seem kinda strange. And really mucking large - this is going to be broken into multiple parts. Unfortunately, the Caine part won't come for a while, though if you're dying to know I can write it beforehand. Also, please comment, people. If it was worthwhile, tell me, and I'll write out more. If not, tell me, and I won't waste your bandwidth and my time actually typing more of this. Part One - Genesis 1 - -------------------- "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God..." - John 1:1 Suprisingly, the scientists are more right then you might think. The universe started with a Big Bang, expanded and cooled for a while, and then earth came along. Evolution happened for thousands of years, slowly working towards humans. But humans did not work like scientists think. The pre-sentience that the ape families showed did not arrive in humans. Instead, as they evolved a instinctive language system, one which acted almost like an operating system for human minds. Very few humans ever thought; their actions were simply dictated by their linguistic programming. There were those, however, who did think, and with amazing clarity. The linguistic system's control over a human's nervous system could be broken, but something outside had to do it. A soul. Many lower animals had souls of sorts, but the linguistic system kept most souls that tried to enter the humans (a natural process that happens at about four months into the pregnancy) from succeeding. Those souls that did succeed, however, were very powerful - amazing intelligent, perceptive, and willful. Many were killed, because their independance from the language represented a danger to the rest of the humans. [Note - at this point, anybody who has read Snow Crash should be recognizing what I am doing. A lot of this stuff comes from Snow Crash, flavored heavily with stuff from the book Xenocide, by Orson Scott Card.] Some, however, managed to avoid death, and learn how their language worked. They came to understand how to manipulate that language, so that they could control the actions of their fellows. In the words of their ancient language, they were "ba'al shem" - lords of the word. They became powerful lords, ruling large tribes through words alone. And while they lived, physically, not much longer than most, many of them had powerful enough souls to survive ressurection without losing personality or power. Time passed. Slowly, and through contact with each other, the ba'al shem became increasinly learned; instead of simple commands, ba'al shem could create whole "programs" for things such as making bread. Instead of tribes, the ba'al shem now ruled kingdoms, and made war with one another. They devised security measures within the minds of their subjects, and attempted to subvert their opponent's subjects with "viruses". It was into this world that the ba'al shem who would take the name Yahweh was born. - -------------------- Timeline: (note - I'm using the names of the books just for feel, not because the events correspond) Genesis 1: Creation of the world, the evolution of man. Origins of the ba'al shem. The birth of the ba'al shem Yahweh. Genesis 2: Yahweh rises in power. The nam-shub of knowledge, the creation of the seraphim and cherubim. The Fall, the nam-shub of breaking. The flood. Exodeus: The war in Heaven. Battle of Har Meggido, creation of Hell. The origins of Lucifer. The covenant with Israel, the expansion of Judiasm. Apocrypha: Origins of vampires, werewolves, fae, etc. The principles behind souls, planes, Resonance, Dissonance, and Falling. - -------------------- Beyond that, I'm not sure: I'm willing to answer any and all questions. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #575 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.