From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Jan 22 15:58:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA22753 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 15:58:53 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id PAA01352 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 15:57:19 -0600 Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 15:57:19 -0600 Message-Id: <199801222157.PAA01352@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #585 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, January 22 1998 Volume 01 : Number 585 In this digest: Re: IN> New to In Nomine Re: IN> Vessel bits Re: IN> Vessel bits Re: IN>Lying Re: IN> By Any Other Name Re: IN> Silly rules hacks. Re: IN> Old Testament or New Testament IN> Andre Re: IN> By Any Other Name Re: IN> Vessel bits Re: IN> Vessel bits IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #584 Re: IN> Vessel bits Re: IN> Vessel bits Re: IN> By Any Other Name Re: IN> Silly rules hacks. Re: IN> Vessel bits Re: IN>Lying Re: IN> Silly rules hacks. Re: IN> Vessel bits Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #584 Re: IN> Vessel bits Re: IN> Vessel bits Re: IN> Vessel bits IN> Re: Supplements I'd Like to See ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 19:15:29 +0000 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> New to In Nomine At 12:09 22/01/98 +0000, you wrote: > > >Of course, it has been repeatedly stated that the Demon Princes prefer >hordes to quality, and creating Uber-Servitors from "birth" is certainly >not favouring this principle. > > I think if I were a demon prince(ss) and 18 of my demons actually managed to agree with each other for long enough to ask to donate forecs, I would graciously grant them their wish, create the 18-force child with low will, use the song of possession on it and fulfil my parenticidal urges that I'd never had the opportunity to take out on the almighty ;-) Then I'd go for a curry. jo (No really, I'd do an ace job as DP of anarchy -- I'd just hack off all my servitors enough to give them severe attitude problems and loose them on an unsuspecting world. And there's be a set of leathers and a spraycan for everyone who wanted one) - ---------- "I like getting into hot water, it keeps me clean." G. K. Chesterton jhart@btinternet.com -- http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~jhart/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 19:17:43 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Vessel bits > > Problem is, there already *is* a way, readily available within modern > > technology (or Iron Age technology, for that matter), to identify a > > celestial vessel: > > > > Lock it up in a cell for a few days, with no food or water. > > Ahh, almost good. However, you /cant/ imprision a celestial. How > can you imprison something that can just go Celestial and fly through > the wall-- or even ascend to heaven.. > The point was that he (I think) was looking at ways to tell a Celestial from a human. If it just disappears, that might just indicate a Celestial. > Even if you ignore that-- there's the things stats to worry about. > Most celestials could /easily/ batter down a door designed not to > be battered down. I don't think that's true. 6 Strength is not enough, IMO, to do such a thing. It's only at levels 10-12 that I would consider allowing such a thing. 6 is an attainable stat for a mundane human, if you don't mind having 2 in the corresponding characteristic. And really strong mundanes can have 10 Strength. It's rare, but doable. Also, there's no such thing as an average Celestial. PC angels are weaker than most angels, and PC demons are stronger than most demons. There would be some doors that could keep the > 'weaker' celestials imprisoned, but why lock a normal looking human > (and some celestials perfer to take 'wimpy' looking vessels) in such > a hard to escape room.. > > Also-- songs. You could simply use something like the Celestial > Song of Motion to Teleport away.. > > but really-- that arguement falls short the second you consider > that a celestial can. . .go celestial :) > Assume a high-powered Impudite. I could make one with guaranteed success on resonance rolls against angels in half an hour. Less, if all I wanted to do was pick attunements. My Seraph of Janus has lockpick rolls starting at 15. Didn't matter without her tools. And she couldn't ascend without Essence, so she was stuck. (Part of her character background, not an in-game event. I leave the repercussions of such up to the GM.) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:17:52 -0800 From: "David M. Barr" Subject: Re: IN> Vessel bits Brandon Quina wrote: > > > Problem is, there already *is* a way, readily available within modern > > technology (or Iron Age technology, for that matter), to identify a > > celestial vessel: > > > > Lock it up in a cell for a few days, with no food or water. > > Also-- songs. You could simply use something like the Celestial > Song of Motion to Teleport away.. > > but really-- that arguement falls short the second you consider > that a celestial can. . .go celestial :) yes, well, if a "person" disappears from a locked cell, and leaves no evidence of having been there that a non celestial being can perceive, then that rather proves the theory that the "person" is, in fact not a human being, no? the point of the imprisonment was not to imprison, it was to determine the nature of the being in question. The only exception to that rule would be an Offanite of Janus (I think) since their attunement allows them to escape any sort of imprisonment. The locks just don't work on them. And even then, there is the issue of how they escaped. Does it look coincidental, such that it could be achieved by a mortal, or is it supernatural in appearance (My guess is the former, but I digress). can I safely assume that a rant about people not reading the thread before adding to it is gratuitous and redundant? - -Daiv. Who am I? Renegade Offanite in service to Tyche* (oh, yeah, I'm stable... (*look it up, cyber nickel for the first correct answer posted)) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 14:05:54 -0500 (EST) From: Dan Ozdowski Subject: Re: IN>Lying According to Kevin Walsh: > Actually, it'd probably need a special attunement, because otherwise it's > dissonant. Plus it's very scary. Maybe Kobal should be able to give that > attunement to his Balseraphs instead of whatever rite they get? Hmm, a good disclaimer just doesn't do any good these days.... But, I don't seem to understand why it's dissonant. A balseraph only gets a dissonant note when he gets caught in one of his lies or resisted in a major way, right? So if you do this lying/not lying trick with something that the lie-ee can't prove, or doesn't know proper stuff about, you should be safe. Example: Seraph: How did you find out I was an angel? Truth: Doug told me Balseraph decides: I saw your halo! Balseraph uses lying skill: Doug told me. Seraph reads lies and gets: *He's lying* ^^^^^^^^^^^^ And this "catching" of the lie shouldn't count for dissonance, because it's a skill, NOT a resonance. Unless the Seraph can go ask Doug: Hey Doug, did you tell Binky I was an angel? He can't catch the balseraph in his lie. No dissonance. I'm still not saying this should be tried (unless it's a Kobal attunement - then you bought it or earned it fair and square) because Balseraphs aren't supposed to have the lying skill. But isn't it sound mechanically? > > It's not as bad as a Habbalah who's actually right about why she's in hell, > though. (Yes, I have created such an NPC.) > Do tell, was it an Elohite masquerading, or was it an Elohite that God forced to Fall? Or what? Now I'm interested..... Dan Ozdowski PS - the sig file's not an Asmodeus reference, or an Arioch reference, or even a Robert Jordan reference.....things just get a bit chaotic whenever I'm around. Especially if I'm trying to take something apart - just ask SeanMike :) - -- I shall henceforth be referred to as: Lord of Chaos ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 14:29:04 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> By Any Other Name Emily Dresner wrote: > > It's traditional. > > So is ramming #2 pencil up one's nose while singing the Star Spangled > Banner. Well, that's a new one to me... > > Even before India and Tibet were places of > > mystical adventure, the West looked to Egypt for such thrills. > > Only because people looked at Egypt and didn't know what the heck was > going on there. Of course. It's very hard to set mystical adventures in the Known. Otherwise, you're not doing fanatsy; you're doing parapsychology. > I have yet to see anyone do anything even close to historically > accurate in a game setting. I'm not sure what "historical accuracy" might mean for IN. "Mythological accuracy" might be more to the point. I mean, I'd suppose that the IN use of Egypt that John Karakash had in mind is for modern Egypt to contain some leftover -- unexpectedly real -- of Egyptian myth. > Ack. Mme. Blavatsky was also a manic-depressive. Her Isis Unveiled > book is just... gads. Egyptian 'mysticism' isn't Egyptian. You bet. And her later adaptations of Hinduism and Tibetean Buddhism were probably just as off-base. She's just one more conspicuous datapoint demonstrating the tradition of using Egypt as a place for mystical goodies. > > Also, Egypt has Biblical associations ... > So do the Babylonians, the Canaanites, Hittites, early Turkish, > Greeks, Romans, Libyians, Sudaneses, Akkadians, etc, have a cool tie > in to not only Biblical associations by historical accuracy. Ah, yes, but they're not BOTH Biblical AND mystical. Or, to the degree that they are, there are also traditions for hanging stuff on them, too. And the tradition for Egypt is awfully old; after all, the Greeks and Romans themselves regarded it that way. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 19:44:09 +0000 (GMT) From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Silly rules hacks. > Acrobatic dodge 30 = Agility/12+Dodge/6+Acrobatics/6+Celestial Artifact/6. > Of course he could try resonance on a Perception of 7 for another 1-6. > Ethereal artifact, surely. > Without the possibly-unwise note that Acrobatics skill is sometimes added > to Dodge, he only had CD 13-18, instead of 19-24. > > Pistols was Ranged/6+Artifact/6+Precision/11 (Or so) > > His forces were 4/3/2. He was not the smartest or most willful of angels. > No, not really. My Calabite of Beleth would laugh his head off, though his Vessel probably wouldn't survive to enjoy the joke. (He isn't the strongest or fastest of demons, but he's the most intelligent character I've made for In Nomine.) Characters like that are just asking to be killed though. People in my group routinely take Songs of Entropy and Harmony. He'd be flattened. Unbalancing characters always has bad effects. Doing it for munchie reasons is silly. > > Loads of my characters are heavily Discordant, and the problem gets worse > > with each successive demon I make. > > OK. Here goes again. If there is no limit on discord, you can end up with > an Impudite of Vapula (for the attunement), with an Unholy Pistol/6 [!], > precision/12, ranged/6, artifact/6, who spends all 18 essence and does at > least 180 damage in a single shot. Even with dodge and armour, not many > vessels can take that. Compare a 'combat machine' with claws etc, who can > still only do in the region of 20-30 plus essence spent. > I take it the combat machine with claws has spurs as well. My Habbalah of War did silly amounts of damage with Song of Acid (I consider damage in the 8-13 range along with autohit silly.) So I petitioned the GM to change the rules so that Song was treated as a ranged attack based on just Precision, with Song Level still giving the bonus to Accuracy and Power. But there's a simple way out. Don't allow characters like that, or if you don't like doing that, point to all the powers in the books that will neutralise such a person. There are many. > Then you give the Impudite a reliquary/6, and take _another_ level 6 > discord to balance out. That would be another 36 damage then... > You can always limit artifacts. And Level 6 Discords! I'm scared to death for my character with a Level 6 Bound Discord. (With 7 Will.) I took it because I thought it was appropriate. He told his boss Saminga how he didn't want to be disturbingh the Symphony (making a play for the Balseraph of Death attunement), so Saminga imposed Bound Discord on him. And my Habbalah with Cowardly/5 spent a long time in Limbo, a very long time. (Given her character history, I can only conclude that Malphas removed rakes of Discord from her. 7 Levels in total is definitely on the low side.) Discords should be linked to background. It's funnier to give former Ofanim the Bound Discord than those who've been Calabim all their lives. And Vulnerabilities. I reckon every Calabite should have one. > Mind you, I only play around with numbers like that for entertainment. > I'd never _play_ a character like that. Except in a tournament-style game. > Ahem. > You want a competition to see who can build the munchiest character? I think I'll pass. But 12 Will Habbalah of Hardcore is always a good starting point. > Oh 'eck. What happens if you do all this for an Ofanite of War with > Precision? That's another 6-36 damage without having to spend the > essence, and before the other guy gets to move. Where's me calculator? > Ofanim of War are obscene. No question. > > (None of my angels are Discordant, but > > This is the important part. The more strictly you apply the 'Discord is > Angel leprosy' advice, the sooner angels stop taking it. > I am deathly afraid of what my GM would do if I even considered taking Discord for one of my angels, though I'm thinking of having some for an Elohite of Gabriel, redeemed just 10 years ago. I can't see Gabriel often having the presence of mind to remove Discord. Make characters explain how they got Discord, why their Superiors put up with it (if their Superiors are mad, maybe they didn't notice), and why you think it's cool to have that Discord. > > Some of the intersections are interesting, like Paranoid and Cowardly. > > Or Angry and Mercy, for that angst-from-the-start Elohite. If they kill > 'em, they did it for a subjective reason. If they don't, the same applies. > :( > That is silly. Very silly indeed. I don't know whether I'd let people take contradictory Discords. On balance, I probably wouldn't. People would start asking me things like "Do I get to use my Merciful Discord as a bonus to my Will roll to resist my Berserk Discord?", since in similar situations, like Habbalah messing, I would. Of course, nothing beats the old Paranoia/Anger/Berserk/Murderous combo. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 14:54:16 -0500 (EST) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Old Testament or New Testament On Thu, 22 Jan 1998, Kevin Walsh wrote: > > > > Same guy once played an Ofan(ite) with an acrobatic dodge of 30, and a > > 'pistols' of 20ish. Oh my word, but discord can be abusable if the GM lets > > it. > > Skills can't be higher than six, n'est-ce pas? ...without a Talisman, true. But with a Talisman, skills can EFFECTIVELY go up to 12. 12 Precision + Guns/6 + Talisman/6 = skill of 24. Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian (Married to Rev. Unibomber on 11/15/96 - be jealous ;) Meow! And finally, a special message to anyone who thinks I give a damn... \|/ ____ \|/ ~@-/ oO \-@~ /_( \__/ )_\ \__U_/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 15:01:18 -0500 (EST) From: Pee Kitty Subject: IN> Andre On Thu, 22 Jan 1998, Kevin Walsh wrote: > The reason I modelled the attunements on Lust was because I was looking > for powerful attunements, and Lust's attunements were the munchiest I'd seen. I never liked his Lilim attunement. It seemed so...inappropriate. The idea is that his Lilim are his favorite servitors, raw creatures of seduction and lust, and they get the Elohim of Yves attunement? It seemed like a cop out...like Derek couldn't think of a suitably good one, so he just gave them a very useful one that was bland enough to fit in anywhere. A few weeks ago, I was checking out a link from INC about different takes on Demon Princes, and ran into "Belial, Demon Prince of Lust"...didn't really click with me, BUT the Lilim of Lust attunement was perfect, and with a teeny bit of editing, it's what I now use. LILIM Andre's Lilim are his favorite servitors. He asked for a full page in which to express their virtues (it all boils down to "if you *ever* get a chance with one, take it.") They add their Corporeal Forces to any seduction attempt, and anyone they have consensual sex with *automatically* owes them a Geas/2. A little like Haagenti's, but that doesn't bother me one whit. Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian (Married to Rev. Unibomber on 11/15/96 - be jealous ;) Meow! And finally, a special message to anyone who thinks I give a damn... \|/ ____ \|/ ~@-/ oO \-@~ /_( \__/ )_\ \__U_/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 15:02:25 -0500 (EST) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> By Any Other Name On Thu, 22 Jan 1998, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Pkitty@cris.com writes: > > >Jadis (Winter - a Lilim Prince...why aren't there more of those?) > > MarkDEddy wrote: > > > 1) Did you steal her from Narnia? If you did, one of my PC's > > (whose word is Narnians) is going to be either peeved or pleased... > > If this is the White Witch of "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe," > shouldn't she be styled a Lilim Princess? I use "Prince" unisexually. Demons don't have genders, after all; even the Lilim are just as comfortable in a male vessel as a female one. Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian (Married to Rev. Unibomber on 11/15/96 - be jealous ;) Meow! And finally, a special message to anyone who thinks I give a damn... \|/ ____ \|/ ~@-/ oO \-@~ /_( \__/ )_\ \__U_/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 15:01:27 -0500 (EST) From: "York H. Dobyns" Subject: Re: IN> Vessel bits Brandon Quina writes: [I wrote:] >> Problem is, there already *is* a way, readily available within modern >> technology (or Iron Age technology, for that matter), to identify a >> celestial vessel: >> >> Lock it up in a cell for a few days, with no food or water. > >Ahh, almost good. However, you /cant/ imprision a celestial. How >can you imprison something that can just go Celestial and fly through >the wall-- or even ascend to heaven.. Perfectly true, but it defeats the point. Given that normal humans *aren't* able to disappear into thin air, this vanishing act would prove that whatever you imprisoned wasn't a normal human. Which was the whole point of the exercise -- how to tell a celestial vessel from a human being. >Even if you ignore that-- there's the things stats to worry about. >Most celestials could /easily/ batter down a door designed not to >be battered down. There would be some doors that could keep the >'weaker' celestials imprisoned, but why lock a normal looking human >(and some celestials perfer to take 'wimpy' looking vessels) in such >a hard to escape room.. Same issue. You want to know if George the mysterious drifter is a human being, or Something Else. You toss him into the local lockup. He rips loose the bars with his bare hands to escape. Scratch "human" off the list. The fact that the suspect has escaped from imprisonment is more or less moot. Anyone in the know will now be aware that the suspect is a celestial, and can respond appropriately when encountering him again. If the suspect had a Role, it's been blown sky-high. Anyone *not* in the know has been handed ironclad evidence that there are Things wandering around that look like human beings but aren't. >Also-- songs. You could simply use something like the Celestial >Song of Motion to Teleport away.. Even *this* reveals the celestial's nature, as mortals can't use Celestial Songs. If the goal is to identify a celestial vessel, none of the various escape methods prevent the celestial from tipping its hand. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 14:09:32 -0600 (CST) From: Dataweaver Subject: Re: IN> Vessel bits On Thu, 22 Jan 1998, York H. Dobyns wrote: > Brandon Quina writes: > [I wrote:] > >> Problem is, there already *is* a way, readily available within modern > >> technology (or Iron Age technology, for that matter), to identify a > >> celestial vessel: > >> > >> Lock it up in a cell for a few days, with no food or water. > > > >Ahh, almost good. However, you /cant/ imprision a celestial. How > >can you imprison something that can just go Celestial and fly through > >the wall-- or even ascend to heaven.. > > Perfectly true, but it defeats the point. Given that normal humans > *aren't* able to disappear into thin air, this vanishing act would prove > that whatever you imprisoned wasn't a normal human. Which was the whole > point of the exercise -- how to tell a celestial vessel from a human > being. Also, a mummy might be mistaken for a celestial vessel... - ---- Jonathan Lang ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver --------- Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing, FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer. submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 15:14:26 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Nutt Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #584 >> Although I can't >> (absolutely can't!) give any details, there's something >> really, really mean buried in Egypt. >> >Why do I have this sinking feeling all of the sudden? Does Egypt have >this big button on it that says "Push me, please"? Why does Egypt have to >be used as everyone's pet gimmick? > >I'm already frothing. Just warn me, so I can get good and angry early, >and get over it. > >- - Em, Seraph of Egyptian Historical Accuracy Em, a Seraph? Oh, *that* will be the day.... Check p. 10 of the Angelic Player's Guide... "Magog, a servant of David, helped accelerate the collapse of the Egyptian empire before engaging Saminga's demons in open warfare, which was forbidden then as it is today. Magog Fell soon after. He and those loyal to him were entombed beneath the sands of Egypt by David, with the help of Khalid, the Angel of Faith. Magog is to remain imprisoned until Armageddon, at which point the angels and demons may once again fight openly on the Earth." Michael Xena/Gabrielle in 2000... Because women are so tactful and diplomatic! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 15:18:43 -0500 (EST) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Vessel bits On Thu, 22 Jan 1998, York H. Dobyns wrote: > Pee Kitty writes: > > >On Wed, 21 Jan 1998, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > > > >> The vessels are very, very close to normal > >> bodies. It still hasn't been decided if there are > >> very subtle differences that can be detected by > >> intense scientific analysis. > > > >Be VERY careful about deciding the answer to that one...today's "intense, > >laboratory-required analysis" can be tomorrow's "handheld scanner". If > >it's possible AT ALL to detect a vessel with technology, Vapula will be > >issuing the equipment within the year, and humans will have it a few > >decades later... > > Problem is, there already *is* a way, readily available within modern > technology (or Iron Age technology, for that matter), to identify a > celestial vessel: > > Lock it up in a cell for a few days, with no food or water. True, but I was referring to something that could be done by analysis, not by a controlled situation and observation. > > In any case, given the aforementioned extremely low-tech way to identify > a celestial vessel, modern technology *almost* certainly has easier ways > of doing it already. (I say "almost" because designers of bioassay > equipment tend to make some simplifying assumptions, such as that the > tissues under scrutiny obey basic laws of physics and chemistry -- > celestial vessels conspicuously don't. I don't see that this would be true. What modern technology could accurately determine the answer to "What effect would starvation have on this organism"? If tissue samples are the same for humans and vessels, there isn't a way. On the other hand, a Vapulan > technology, created by celestials who know exactly what's going on, > could avoid this pitfall.) Perhaps, but now we're talking about demons...they're not humans. (Close to humans, but not nearly as bad...:-) Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian (Married to Rev. Unibomber on 11/15/96 - be jealous ;) Meow! And finally, a special message to anyone who thinks I give a damn... \|/ ____ \|/ ~@-/ oO \-@~ /_( \__/ )_\ \__U_/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:14:29 -0800 (PST) From: Querent Subject: Re: IN> Vessel bits Actually, the argument was not that you could imprison a celestial, but rather imprisoning them would be a way to prove they are celestial. Leaving the Corporeal realm is one way of proving the vessel is celestial. If anything, the argument is further substantiated here. - ---Brandon Quina wrote: > > > Problem is, there already *is* a way, readily available within modern > > technology (or Iron Age technology, for that matter), to identify a > > celestial vessel: > > > > Lock it up in a cell for a few days, with no food or water. > > Ahh, almost good. However, you /cant/ imprision a celestial. How > can you imprison something that can just go Celestial and fly through > the wall-- or even ascend to heaven.. > > Even if you ignore that-- there's the things stats to worry about. > Most celestials could /easily/ batter down a door designed not to > be battered down. There would be some doors that could keep the > 'weaker' celestials imprisoned, but why lock a normal looking human > (and some celestials perfer to take 'wimpy' looking vessels) in such > a hard to escape room.. > > Also-- songs. You could simply use something like the Celestial > Song of Motion to Teleport away.. > > but really-- that arguement falls short the second you consider > that a celestial can. . .go celestial :) == --Querent USELESS FACT: The hominid skeleton known as "Lucy" was named after the Beatles' "Lucy in the Sky With Diamonds", the song that was playing when the discovery was made. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 15:21:17 -0500 From: Brandon Quina Subject: Re: IN> By Any Other Name > > It's traditional. > So is ramming #2 pencil up one's nose while singing the Star Spangled > Banner. It doesn't mean it needs to be done. Hey! I only did that once, and was cleared of all charges! You cant prove anything... > > Even before India and Tibet were places of mystical adventure, the > > West looked to Egypt for such thrills. > Only because people looked at Egypt and didn't know what the heck was > going on there. Not to say that Ancient Egypt wasn't an interesting > place, because it was, but not it a 'Let's game there' sort of way. > They never fail to remind me of Neo-Confucists. > I have yet to see anyone do anything even close to historically > accurate in a game setting. But hey, it's a game, right? If I just > keep repeating that, I'll stop frothing. In time. What'cha gotta remember, is that in the In Nomine universe-- Saminga and god-only-knows who else was there.. Saminga. You know, that guy who would do things that would make Vlad the Impailer seem 'quaint'. I mean.. As ive heard white wolf say on occasion- there really werent demon princes wondering around Egpty in the real world, so all our historical information is flawed to begin with > I would prefer finding the Ark of the Covenant then some nasty > "Egyptian Relic of Set". Mmmmh. Arc of the Covenant. Isnt that locked up in Warehouse 23 somewhere?? Still, I imagine that would be a pretty neat artifact.. Maybe we'll get to read something about it in the relicquarium book?? > *froth* Has anyone ever told you that you look cute when your frothing at the mouth?? Brandon, Ever ready to jump into the fray without any bodily armor of any sort. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 15:26:56 -0500 From: Brandon Quina Subject: Re: IN> Silly rules hacks. > This is the important part. The more strictly you apply the 'Discord > is Angel leprosy' advice, the sooner angels stop taking it. Ummmm, I didnt think that Demons liked Discord either. Expecially with Demons of the Game going around who know that Discord = Dissonance = Potential Renegade.. Indeed, I usually give my demons a worse time about Discord than I give to the demons.. Afterall, hell dosnt know stuff like 'compassion' and things like that.. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 15:28:57 -0500 (EST) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Vessel bits On Thu, 22 Jan 1998, Brandon Quina wrote: > > Problem is, there already *is* a way, readily available within modern > > technology (or Iron Age technology, for that matter), to identify a > > celestial vessel: > > > > Lock it up in a cell for a few days, with no food or water. > > Ahh, almost good. However, you /cant/ imprision a celestial. How > can you imprison something that can just go Celestial and fly through > the wall-- or even ascend to heaven.. Ummmm....don't you think that that'd be JUST as good a way to clue the people watching it that it was a Celestial they had locked up, and not a human? > Even if you ignore that-- there's the things stats to worry about. > Most celestials could /easily/ batter down a door designed not to > be battered down. There would be some doors that could keep the > 'weaker' celestials imprisoned, but why lock a normal looking human > (and some celestials perfer to take 'wimpy' looking vessels) in such > a hard to escape room.. Again, this would make it fairly obvious that it was not a human. > Also-- songs. You could simply use something like the Celestial > Song of Motion to Teleport away.. And how many normal humans can do that?? > but really-- that arguement falls short the second you consider > that a celestial can. . .go celestial :) Uh-huh. I'm confused here. My point was that there shouldn't be any scientific way to determine if a 'human' is actually a human or a Celestial in a vessel. He then said that one could determine the truth by locking said 'human' up in a cell without food or water. You then go on to say that this wouldn't work (i.e., that it would not reveal the celestial for what it is) because the celestial can teleport away or pass through the walls?? Humans can't do that, you know. :) Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian (Married to Rev. Unibomber on 11/15/96 - be jealous ;) Meow! And finally, a special message to anyone who thinks I give a damn... \|/ ____ \|/ ~@-/ oO \-@~ /_( \__/ )_\ \__U_/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 15:33:22 -0500 (EST) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN>Lying On Thu, 22 Jan 1998, Dan Ozdowski wrote: > According to Kevin Walsh: > > > Actually, it'd probably need a special attunement, because otherwise it's > > dissonant. Plus it's very scary. Maybe Kobal should be able to give that > > attunement to his Balseraphs instead of whatever rite they get? > > Hmm, a good disclaimer just doesn't do any good these days.... > > But, I don't seem to understand why it's dissonant. A > balseraph only gets a dissonant note when he gets caught in one > of his lies or resisted in a major way, right? So if you do > this lying/not lying trick with something that the lie-ee can't > prove, or doesn't know proper stuff about, you should be safe. > > Example: > Seraph: How did you find out I was an angel? > Truth: Doug told me > Balseraph decides: I saw your halo! > Balseraph uses lying skill: Doug told me. > Seraph reads lies and gets: *He's lying* > ^^^^^^^^^^^^ > And this "catching" of the lie shouldn't count for dissonance, because > it's a skill, NOT a resonance. That's very iffy, though. By a strict reading of the rules, the Bal *has* been caught in a lie. Nevermind that the lie was true...at that moment, for that Balseraph, it *IS* a lie...and he got caught. I'm not saying that the rules can't be interpreted otherwise...but I do think an attunement should be required. Just a little 5-point one, or a new Band attunement. Kobal is definitely the way to go here. > Unless the Seraph can go ask Doug: > Hey Doug, did you tell Binky I was an angel? Which would *definitely* cause dissonance, of course. Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian (Married to Rev. Unibomber on 11/15/96 - be jealous ;) Meow! And finally, a special message to anyone who thinks I give a damn... \|/ ____ \|/ ~@-/ oO \-@~ /_( \__/ )_\ \__U_/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 15:35:50 -0500 (EST) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Silly rules hacks. On Thu, 22 Jan 1998, Kevin Walsh wrote: > You want a competition to see who can build the munchiest character? I > think I'll pass. But 12 Will Habbalah of Hardcore is always a good > starting point. Okay, I've seen this three times now...and don't have Night Music. Someone's gotta clue me in. What do Habbalah of Furfur get?? Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian (Married to Rev. Unibomber on 11/15/96 - be jealous ;) Meow! And finally, a special message to anyone who thinks I give a damn... \|/ ____ \|/ ~@-/ oO \-@~ /_( \__/ )_\ \__U_/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 20:51:23 +1100 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: Re: IN> Vessel bits > All the celestials in my game eat. Not as often as humans, perhaps, but > they rarely go more than a few days without food--it's just easier to > debate about a strategy over a big pile of pizza. And yes, they have to > 'go', later...I let 'em hold it for as long as they like. OBTW, I'd say > the corpse would decay, and would not necessarily be *perfect*. The Malakim of Eli in my group goes around reminding other angels to eat. Sure, they don't _need to eat, but they miss out on so much flavour... - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia Uncle Bill will never leave a will And the tumor is as big as an egg He has a mistress, she's Puerto Rican And I heard she has a wooden leg TOM WAITS, "Cemetary Polka" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 15:44:46 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #584 > >I'm already frothing. Just warn me, so I can get good and angry early, > >and get over it. > > > >- - Em, Seraph of Egyptian Historical Accuracy > > Em, a Seraph? Oh, *that* will be the day.... Just on this issue. I'm a Bal on everything else. > > Check p. 10 of the Angelic Player's Guide... > > "Magog, a servant of David, helped accelerate the collapse of the Egyptian > empire before engaging Saminga's demons in open warfare, which was forbidden > then as it is today. Magog Fell soon after. He and those loyal to him were > entombed beneath the sands of Egypt by David, with the help of Khalid, the > Angel of Faith. Magog is to remain imprisoned until Armageddon, at which > point the angels and demons may once again fight openly on the Earth." > Um.... help accelerate? How? It took 1000 YEARS. They had to be invaded a half dozen times, and the LAST time was from the Greeks, who they saw as liberating them from the Assyrians, who they saw as liberators from all sorts of other stuff. Even then, they dragged out the dregs of their culture until 600AD, after the Greeks got kicked out by someone else. But they stopped building the big tombs long before then. I guess he's a man who took his time in a BIG WAY. Even in Falling. Great. The Mummy's Curse. - - Em, who just doesn't want to know anymore. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 15:54:20 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Vessel bits Patrick O'Duffy wrote: > The Malakim of Eli in my group goes around reminding other angels to > eat. Sure, they don't _need to eat, but they miss out on so much > flavour... This reminds me of the angel Monica on the CBS series "Touched by an Angel," whose one sensual weakness is coffee. In one episode, she was accused of incompetence and hauled before her Superior, who exonerated her, but had one little criticism: "One word: decaf." Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 15:58:58 -0500 From: Brandon Quina Subject: Re: IN> Vessel bits > Actually, the argument was not that you could imprison a celestial, > but rather imprisoning them would be a way to prove they are > celestial. > Leaving the Corporeal realm is one way of proving the vessel is > celestial. If anything, the argument is further substantiated here. Im sorry, but if I was a scientist and my subject disappeared 'he ascended to heaven' would be the last thing I would assume happened. Rather, I would assume that he found a way to open the door, close it behind him, and then left without being spotted. 'He was an angel' just dosnt hold any weight.. If he suspected the target might be an angel, there would be other ways to see if he was or not. Fire an uzi at full-auto at him, if he's more or less unhurt then he is a celestial or a mummy or some kind of supernatural creature. Its also just about as illegal is locking a person up in a room with no food or water--- and alot safer, if it is a real person, you wont have to worry about lawsuits after the uzi-test.. Of course, that wouldnt work if the celestial didnt have that many body points.. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 16:02:14 -0500 From: Brandon Quina Subject: Re: IN> Vessel bits > Humans can't do that, you know. :) It was really just a gut reaction to somebody saying they could lock a celestial up. but I still hold by my theory that you couldnt lock a celestial up, and thus his idea wouldnt work... It would be him walking through the wall that gave him away, not him starving to death.. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 16:50:01 -0500 (EST) From: Thomas Howell Subject: IN> Re: Supplements I'd Like to See I'm less interested in Superiors and 'how to play Choir + Superior' - I can think about that myself and don't need anyone to tell me how to do it. What I'd like to see is 1) Historical supplements dealing with one particular period; the Inquisition, the Crusades. How were Celestials involved? Ideas for playing adventures then. I hope, of course, that most affairs were done by humans (none of this 'everyone important in history must have been a celestial/Soldier'). 2) Books like Ars Magica's (or GURPS) Mythic Places, but of religiously significant locales within the Judeo-Islamic-Christian world. More artifacts like in the soon-to-be Liber Reliquarum. Items to build stories around. - ------------------------ TJ Howell thowell@ace.cs.ohiou.edu - ------------------------ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #585 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.