From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Jan 26 13:07:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA01992 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 13:07:08 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id NAA24269 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 13:02:52 -0600 Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 13:02:52 -0600 Message-Id: <199801261902.NAA24269@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #592 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, January 26 1998 Volume 01 : Number 592 In this digest: IN> Fallen Re: IN> Fallen Re: IN> New to In Nomine IN> IN Type Shows Re: IN> IN Type Shows Re: IN> Fallen IN> Doing something behind his DP's back Re: IN> Angelic Words Re: IN> Campaign Seed - A Definite Lack of Faith [VERY long] IN> Ugly Vessels Re: IN> Angels and the Salvation of Man Re: Re: GURPS In Nomine? (was Re: IN> Yrth) IN> Book Review Re: IN> Angels and the Salvation of Man Re: IN> Kobal's Last Prank (was Re: IN> By Any Other Name) Re: IN> Angelic Words Re: IN> Ugly Vessels Re: IN> Sorcerors Ring IN> Can Soldiers hear the Symphony? Re: IN> Buddhist In Nomine Re: IN> Ugly Vessels Re: IN> FLUFF: Titles RE: IN> Fallen Re: IN> Angels and the Salvation of Man Re: IN> Can Soldiers hear the Symphony? Re: IN> Angelic Words Re: IN> Kobal's Last Prank (was Re: IN> By Any Other Name) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 01:04:23 EST From: "Perry M. Lloyd" Subject: IN> Fallen Well, just recently saw the movie Fallen. I don't have a head for names of actors, but I believe that was Denzel Washington (forgive my spelling if I'm wrong) in there. Talk about a Shedim flick. The scene with the demon chasing the female lead role through the crowd by body-hopping was really pretty. It was worth the $4.50 (w/ student discount). Any of you see it yet and if so, what did ya think of it? - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd Check out the PBEM In Nomine: Soldiers of Linn webpage! "And all the time the joke is that the word 'mine' in its fully possessive sense cannot be uttered by a human being about anything. In the long run either Our Father or the Enemy will say 'mine' of each thing that exits, and specially of each man." -Screwtape (from The Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 22:44:29 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> Fallen >Well, just recently saw the movie Fallen. I don't have a head for names >of actors, but I believe that was Denzel Washington (forgive my spelling >if I'm wrong) in there. > >Talk about a Shedim flick. The scene with the demon chasing the female >lead role through the crowd by body-hopping was really pretty. > >It was worth the $4.50 (w/ student discount). >Any of you see it yet and if so, what did ya think of it? > >-Perry > I haven't managed to see "The Fallen" yet. I was wondering, being on the subject of IN related movies, if anyone has seen "The Prophecy II". It has been rented out at the video store I go to since its release. I've heard that there is a good reason that it went straight to video, but I would like to hear more if I can't manage to see it myself. Armand ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 01:58:04 -0500 From: Brandon Quina Subject: Re: IN> New to In Nomine > hye watch it bucko angels aint nothin' I couldn' find the demon hard > bad demons are much cooler because they are sooooo evil and am tired > of these good guy games its about time there was a game like this > where the is a most infernal outlet for our violent tendoncies Well, I dont wanna get into a 'Demons vs Angels' arguement (I do that often enough when im online with my friends) but if you're ever in Jax, FL feel free to stop by. If your angelic hardbound is in good condition id be happy to trade.. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 02:05:10 -0500 From: Brandon Quina Subject: IN> IN Type Shows There's this one show on the Sci-Fi channel. Its called 'American Gothic'. I watched it the other day, and I couldnt help but think that the sherrif is a lilim. Has anyone else seen that show? Any other shows with IN overtones?? Ohhh, and who else thinks of George Burns when they play Yves?? :) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 23:38:15 -0800 From: Armand Subject: Re: IN> IN Type Shows >There's this one show on the Sci-Fi channel. Its called 'American >Gothic'. I watched it the other day, and I couldnt help but >think that the sherrif is a lilim. > >Has anyone else seen that show? I used to watch it back before they cancelled it on CBS. I think that you're right. Has the doctor me the, for lack of better word, mojo woman? I think that she could qulify as a soldier. The doctor, IMO, gets recruited with her help. Any other shows with IN overtones?? > Twin Peaks. Quatum Leap (there is a Halloween episode in which Sam meets the Devil as an adversary). >Ohhh, and who else thinks of George Burns when they play Yves?? :) Huh? *Pondering Jason Robards in "Something Wicked This Way Comes"* Armand Cherub of telephiles ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 23:58:14 -0800 (PST) From: Kim Foster Subject: Re: IN> Fallen At 01:04 AM 1/26/98 EST, you wrote: >Well, just recently saw the movie Fallen. I don't have a head for names >of actors, but I believe that was Denzel Washington (forgive my spelling >if I'm wrong) in there. > >Talk about a Shedim flick. The scene with the demon chasing the female >lead role through the crowd by body-hopping was really pretty. > >It was worth the $4.50 (w/ student discount). >Any of you see it yet and if so, what did ya think of it? Saw it and posted to list about a little while ago....yep it just screams Shedim. I'd say of Kronos..... I know violence doesn't solve all problems... But it sure feels good! Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 03:57:00 EST From: Calabim Subject: IN> Doing something behind his DP's back I have an odd situation on my hands. In my campaign I have a demonic npc who has decided he wants a certain attunement. He wants in *very* badly. Bad enough to do anything, no matter how long it takes, bad enough to risk his very existance. He would pay almost any price, and would be quite willing to backstab anyone to get it if the price were too high...regardless of what consequences this might entail. Drop everything and work on this for the next 500 years? no problem. Unfortuneately this attunement belongs to a hostile prince, and switching superiors would conflict with what he wants to use the attunement for. Most everyone would be hostile to this demon, if only they knew his plans. So this demon wants to create an attunement on his own. In theory this might be possible. Saminga seems to have done something very like this in egypt... For GM purposes I don't really need to know how it's possible, or even that it is possible. But I would like to know where a demon's efforts would likely be directed. IE what things are commonly researched or attempted when pursueing such a rash course of action. Anybody have any idea how one might attempt aquiring an attunement without the knowledge or consent of a superior? (Yes I know this demon won't live very long...) Calabim@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 11:00:03 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> Angelic Words Very nice! Thanks. (you might want to catch the APG for comparison). The only other thought I had was that it might occasionally be considered necessary for the seraphim council to urgently require that a specific word gains a persona. So they could put out an all-call for interested parties to apply, or something. I don't know if you'd thought about what happens if there is more than one applicant for a word? Also not entirely sure about whether all saints have demonstrated a love of their fellow man. That certainly wouldn't hold for St George, or St Trinian. Some of them might just have demonstrated fanaticism above and beyond the call of duty. So I don't think saints get a vote on the seraphim council, but they can probably get speaking rights if they petition their superior (and the superior thinks the saint won't embarrass them in front of all the other senior angels by spiralling off into a rant about dragon slaying or whatever ("Yes thank you George, I really don't think we need the gory details again.")). Some saints will probably be more political in any case. I also don't see why you say that mortal men are fallen from divine grace, but I guess thats a personal spin. I think it'd be quite cool for a mortal to be summoned to a meeting of the seraphim council in the marches to give testimony in their dreams. I did jot down some notes on politics in the seraphim council which were based on the notion that it has quite a lot of members, and because they aren't all superiors it effectively means that the superiors have voting blocs (ie. they have groups of servitors who have votes on the council). - --- Seraphim Council -- the numbers game 1. The seraphim council has many more members than simply the current archangels. Many of those who are entitled to speak and vote at the council do not attend every meeting, although they are all supposed to be notified of when meetings are to be held and what the agenda is to be. 1b) Some superiors hold strong bloc-votes on the council. Their angels/factions can be relied upon to loyally vote with that superior, even if they are not asked to do so. (Laurence, Michael, David, Jean, Jordi) 1c) Others encourage a larger degree of independence in those angels who serve their word and attend the council, they foster formal debate. (Dominic, Marc, Yves) (NB. Why Dominic? Its because by the time an angel is senior enough to be appointed to the council, he assumes they are capable of using their own judgement. No point in appointing judges if you don't trust them to do that). 1d) And some take so little interest in the affairs of the council that they often fail to turn up or give coherent direction, and their voting angels organise themselves into sub-superior cliques. (Blandine, Novalis, Janus, Gabriel) 1e) Servants of Eli who vote against the superior they are supposed to be in service to get their names taken down. 1f) All archangels who attend council meetings pay attention to which angels speak on which topics. They don't forget. 1g) Numbers. As far as voting members of the council goes, the estimate runs (from top to bottom): Yves, Dominic, Michael, Janus, Eli (but of course most of them are in service to other superiors), Gabriel. Jean, David, Jordi, Blandine, Marc, Novalis, Laurence ie. Any of the archangels mentioned in 1b are politically prominent because they can guarantee to deliver large numbers of votes, if they wish to do so. Archangels mentioned in 1c do actively encourage political awareness in their voting angels. Size of the voting blocs runs (in descending order): Michael Jean David Jordi Laurence. Laurence frequently votes with Michael -- they form the largest guaranteed voting bloc. Jean frequently votes with Yves (who thus effectively has a larger power bloc than you'd think). Dominic has always had a disproportionate number of seraphim in his ranks. Bloc-size under 1c runs as follows, but they do not always vote together. Yves Dominic Marc Voting numbers under 1d falls as follows, but they can never be guaranteed. Janus (can surpass Yves when a lot of voters 'lend' him their sigils) Gabriel Blandine Novalis 2. Each member of the council has a sigil with which they can vote, either in person or by giving the sigil to a proxy. 2a. Sometimes Janus ends up with more votes than he knows what to do with, but the sigils are always returned afterwards (allegedly). 3. Visiting rights (for a non-member who wishes to attend a council meeting) may be granted by any voting member of the seraphim council, who takes responsibility for the behaviour of their guest. 4. Speaking rights are granted through the superior who is chairing the meeting. (ie. a visitor must make it known that they wish to formally address the council, and on which topic -- then the council can vote on whether they wish to hear the speaker). 5. Most common council agenda items: 5a. Reports. At every council meeting, each superior is supposed to present a brief report of current activities and priorities, but they can get away with 'Business as usual' and often do -- except for Laurence who can ramble on in excrutiating detail. The report was once supposed to include names of any celestials who have fallen or redeemed since the last council, names of 'newborn' angels and names of any new hellborn who have been encountered but Yves now deals with the census privately. 5b. Hearing a petition from celestial/s who want to be assigned a word. 5c. Induct new members into the council. (rare) 5d. Special reports. A report might be especially requested if some sensitive situation is blowing up somewhere --- if this happens then the relevant superior is supposed to assign some minion to do the legwork and prepare the presentation, with the proposed course of action and any requests for aid from other superiors. 5e. Resolution of disputes/ internal affairs. 6. 'Regular' meetings are held annually and tend not to go on for longer than a few hours, because superiors start muttering about how many other things they could be doing with their time. 6b. Extraordinary meetings can be called to deal with specific issues; any voting member can request a special meeting but without the support of a superior it probably won't happen. Most specific issues that don't require a vote of the entire seraphim council are sorted out quietly without the need for a meeting 6c. There is provision for a war council to be called at very short notice. - --- Plot Seeds: 1. One of the PCs superiors is sponsoring an angel to acquire a word at the next council meeting and requests that they do some lobbying on its behalf, as they are evidently good at dealing with servants of other superiors and there may be a little controversy involved. PCs need to work out who to approach, which servitors might have their superiors ear and how they can get them to listen, which of Gabriel's voting angels has much clout with its peers etc etc 2. One of Blandine's flakier angels manages to lose its sigil (or has it stolen). He was last seen travelling incognito into Beleth's area of the marches to look for it but has not yet returned (note: any angel which has a voting sigil is likely to be significantly powerful so can probably look after itself), and many of Blandine's other angels who know of this are getting twitchy as their mistress has not commented. Then.. something which looks uncannily like a voting sigil turns up at an antiques auction in the PCs hometown. Is some other force trying to distract the princess of dreams and her power bloc in order to get some private agenda through? 3. One or more of the PCs is asked to help prepare a report on some brewing situation for the next council meeting, for its superior. This will require a full investigation, gathering of witnesses & evidence, dealing with potentially hostile superiors who don't want to be made to look incompetent and coming up with some kind of plan of action ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 08:24:34 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Campaign Seed - A Definite Lack of Faith [VERY long] > Em, your seed, "Lack of Faith" about Jean, Vap and the Death of God is, > franky, one of the many reasons why this list kicks so much asss and > why I totally love being here, even if it means having to endure filtering > through a few hundred messages at a time. :) > > This is really, really cool. :) I have a happy smile now. > Thanks. I was thinking about (yes, at 3:30am) Nieztsche's madman from Thus Spoke Zarathustra, screaming "God is dead! And we're his murderers!", and then I could see Eli as the madman. An odd image, true, but a nice solid one. Then, thinking back to my Philosophy of Space/Time class, that Newton was more of a Soldier of God for Jean then anything else, and his arguments about the Divine Mechanik, and the letter fights with Leibniz. Which generally lead me down a path of thinking about people like Blaise Pascal and other Men of Science/Men of God. Hmmm... there's several seeds in my head where I can successfully kill God. And yes, I intend to check myself into Thinkers Anonymous at the earliest opportunity. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 06:09:23 -0500 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: IN> Ugly Vessels I'd recently wrote up a character, a Bright Lilim of Lighting, with two Vessels, one of which is a Vessel/3 with -2 Charisma (A really, really nasty facial burn scar picked up from an overzealous Malakite of Gabriel.) Anyway, I'd checked through the main book and found this passage in the Vessels section. "You may also take one ortwo levels of /negative/ charisma, each of which /gives/ you two character points, for ugliness, bad breath, whatever. If the body wit negative charisma is just a vessel, these points may oonly be spent to improve that vessel's level or it's role." Am I correct in assuming the following: 1) These points aren't somehow quantized into Role levels or Vessel levels: If you have a Vessel/3 with Charisma-2 on it, the combination only costs you five points, rather than 6. It simply means that the net cost of a Vessel, its Role, and its Charisma can never be less than 0. 2) By the letter, if not by the spirit, of the rules, this would be legal on a starting character: Vessel/1: Ugly (-2) Human (O points), Vessel/1: Ugly (-2) Sparrow (0 [points), Vessel/1: Ugly (-2) Dolphin (0 points), Vessel/1: Ugly (-2) Mouse (0 points), etc, ad infinitum. = http://www.io.com/~beholder ===================== nofori@pop3.utoled.edu === Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Monty, Lilim Captain of Media, the Demon of Game Shows ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 08:38:07 -0500 From: Neel Krishnaswami Subject: Re: IN> Angels and the Salvation of Man >Jesse wrote: >Neel said: >>Since the ultimate aim of Heaven is the salvation of mankind, it >>is considered only right to give them a voice. > >Says who? Me. :) *My* Heaven's so bright ya gotta wear shades. >It seems to me that a story line in which angels aim for the downfall of >humanity would go over well. Perhaps God is sick and tried of us and >decides to arrange for a nuclear war to eliminate us. Been there, done that. In the last Feng Shui game I was in, it turned out the angels were arranging for the destruction of all life and a general "reboot" of reality. And the thing was, Hell was *helping*. And all the Feng Shui factions were busily trying to arrange events so that /their/ particular vision of reality became canon, so to speak. So were some of the PCs, in fact. Two of the PCs managed at enormous cost (their lives, their fortunes, their somewhat soiled honor) to preserve the rather yucky status quo. The trouble was that since there really weren't any good courses of action *even in principle*, PC angst became ridiculous, and everyone (players and characters) stopped taking things very seriously. This Is Bad(tm). So I decided that moral confusion requires a genuine good for the PCs to measure themselves against -- and come up short. That's why Heaven is so relentlessly good IMC. The archangels have real moral stature; no simple-minded fanaticism, no youthful naivete, a solid understanding that reasonable people can disagree even on the most basic points -- and they are still able to act, and live with themselves. *That's* the standard angel PCs have to live up to. Real holiness is a lot harder to roleplay than simple shades of grey. - ---- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 08:50:46 -0500 (EST) From: IQJason@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: GURPS In Nomine? (was Re: IN> Yrth) Shadowcat: "The main one I have been doing of late is "Requiem." it is a world where the elves, Valkery, Djinn, etc. are returning. It is rather WOD, but it is still good. The unfortunate thing though is I thinki that it is now dead." Hm...isn't that J.C. Connors' game? Do you know him? (He runs an occasional pantheon-style live-action game called Deus Ex that I adore.) If you see him, give him regards from 'Zarathos'. ;) yours, IQJ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 08:59:27 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: IN> Book Review Yes! After 6 weeks of slogging through it, broken by a break to read two George Alec Effinger novels, I finally made it to the end. TITLE: The History of God AUTHOR: Karen Armstrong REVIEW: If you're going to be writing history for In Nomine, then go and read this book. It starts off in the first chapter with Abraham, and works its way through history to modern day and the three major monotheistic religions. Karen Armstrong gives an excellent equal handed treatment of Christianity, Judaism and Islam, focusing on what stage each one was in at concurrent points in time. She doesn't preach or patronize any one of the three, but simply tells the facts with hundreds of sources, quotes, and commentary. It's just an excellent book for learning the background history of religion. She covers all the more interesting offshoots as well: origins of Sufism, Kabbalah, Gnostic Christian, Greek Orthodox, Shabbati Tsevi, Inquisition, Protestantism, and some of the more fire and brimstone preachers of the Reformation. Personally, I found this was not the easist book to read in the world. It is very textbook-ish, and it is very long. It took me six weeks of plodding to make it through to the end. But afterwards, I was enlightened. (My background on Islam wasn't the greatest). The amount of detail is staggering, from the Deutoronomists to Martin Buber and everything in between. It's amazing to see not just how the conception of God has changed over the millenia, but why, and what factors caused it. GOOD: Lots of facts, lots of sources, just gives you the straight word. If you're writing IN history, I _strongly_ suggest finding a comfy couch and reading it straight through. BAD: Long. Not an easy read, although it is written for the layman. I never knew the Middle Ages were so boring. :) "So what are you reading now, Em?" Well... it looks like I'm currently working on C. G. Jung's (Jung as a Mystic, not Jung as a Psychologist) "ANSWER TO JOB - The problem of Evil: It's Psychological and Religious Origins". It's only about 100 pages long, though. - - Em, Balseraph of Balseraphin' ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 09:34:43 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Angels and the Salvation of Man > >Says who? > > Me. :) > > *My* Heaven's so bright ya gotta wear shades. Hmmm. > The trouble was that since there really weren't any good courses of > action *even in principle*, PC angst became ridiculous, and everyone > (players and characters) stopped taking things very seriously. This Is > Bad(tm). It depends on how the Game Master decides to handle the angst. I believe a little pain and philosophy is good for the soul, but too much and it turns into a soap opera. There's got to be a balance there somewhere. > So I decided that moral confusion requires a genuine good for the PCs > to measure themselves against -- and come up short. That's why Heaven > is so relentlessly good IMC. The archangels have real moral stature; > no simple-minded fanaticism, no youthful naivete, a solid understanding > that reasonable people can disagree even on the most basic points -- > and they are still able to act, and live with themselves. > > *That's* the standard angel PCs have to live up to. Real holiness is a > lot harder to roleplay than simple shades of grey. > Since I'm in a _mood_, and on a Jung kick, this brings to mind a question he posed (and man, can I not find the quote, so the words are mine): are we to live out lives as Christ suggested, or are we to truly live as he lived his? To truly live our lives as he his, we need to immerse ourselves into this sort of neurotic frenzy of self proletyzing, working one's way into the madness of martyrdom. Absolute good is actually a relative, and making everything the smurfs dilutes some of the gameplay. The Good of Jean, for example, is not the Good of Eli, and not the Good of Dominic. None of which (well, maybe Eli) can really answer the above question of how one is to live one's life - with the lip service to God and being a good neighbor, or to be good in sacrificing one's life for God himself with no real expectation of an answer, or even understanding. I agree that 'Goodness' (that moral relative that no one can agree on) is an important, and relentless stereotypes detract from building the universe. I just can never figure out what Good is, and what really quantifies it. Moral confusion is good, though. Man, that was a ramble. I need some more sleep. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 09:44:49 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Kobal's Last Prank (was Re: IN> By Any Other Name) Heretic103 wrote: > I may be asking an ignorent question but what is canon? No, "canon" is rather a rare word. I was surprised to see it become current on this list; it may have to do with the fact that the original list moderator was a priest. "Canon" is from the Latin for "stick," and came to mean "measuring stick" and, by extention, a standard text. The commonest use of "canon" is to describe the contents of the Bible or another sacred or highly authoritative book. Thus Judaism, Catholicism, and Protestantism have different canons for their Bibles, and the SJG publications for IN form the "canon" of IN, compared to which GM variations and alternatives like "Dark Victory" are non-canonical. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 10:54:21 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Angelic Words Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > Human beings, whether in life or in Heaven, seem incapable of gaining > words; the reasons for this remain obscure to the angels. And yet there are lots of patron saints of this and that, e.g. St. Jude is patron of the impossible, and of course St. Nicholas is patron of children (and sailors and pawnbrokers). Perhaps this is a social convention established as a sort of substitute for Words. As to why humans don't get Words: Here and there, C. S. Lewis constrasts the particular, immediate, and sensory life of humans to the purely conceptual and abstract life of angels (at least as angels are often conceived in theology). He suggested that this "tang of the particular" was the peculiarly human contribution to the celestial life, which, in IN terms, would make it counter- productive for a human to become a personification of a Word. > 1) Obsolescence. This is rare, since the Council is careful to assign > words of universal significance. But it has happened, most often to > Jordi's Servitors when humans drive some species guarded by an angel > extinct. Two remarks: First: humans are certainly causing one of the great die-offs in Earth's history, but we aren't the biggest yet, and extinction is a fact of geological life. The average mammalian species has a lifespan of only three to ten million years. Jordi's servitors should have made some sort of accomodation with this. Second: Why not Words with planned obsolenscence? It means the Archangels may have to hustle, but the occasion might warrant it. "Excuse me, my lords, I petition to be the Angel of World War Two. Michale and Novalis both back me up. But could we, um, hurry? I mean, this is one with some really clear Good Guys vs Bad Guys, and the Good Guys could sure use some luck, er, grace. Now." Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 16:06:39 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> Ugly Vessels - ---Nana Yaw Ofori wrote: > Anyway, I'd checked through the main book and found this passage in the > Vessels section. > > > "You may also take one ortwo levels of /negative/ charisma, each of > which /gives/ you two character points, for ugliness, bad breath, whatever. > If the body wit negative charisma is just a vessel, these points may oonly > be spent to improve that vessel's level or it's role." I think spending points to improve the level assumes that you begin with it at level 1 (ie. at the very least you need to spend 3 points to buy vessel/1 .. you can then add on the ugly-points and maybe get another level for free). So: Vessel/1: Ugly (-2) Human This would cost 3cp, but you then get another 4cp to add to its role or vessel level. So although you only paid for vessel/1, you can then spend 3 of the extra cp to upgrade it to vessel/2 for 'free'. (ie. the points are offset against additional spending, they aren't subtracted from what you have already spent). All IMO jo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 09:03:58 -0800 From: "David M. Barr" Subject: Re: IN> Sorcerors Ring David Edelstein wrote: > > >>>So, is there any canonical reason that a demon could not mass produce > and distribute rings that conferred the skill of Sorcery to mortal > society?<<< > > Yes. Per The Marches, Sorcery is not a skill in itself -- humans need the > Sorcery attunement (usually only available from your friendly neighborhood > demon, at a cost of 10 points and most likely your immortal soul), which > gives you the ability to learn certain sorcerous skills. You could > theoretically have a talisman that grants (or enhances) those skills, but > being able to use it would still require the Sorcery attunement. A ring > that actually grants that attunement would be a major relic, not a mere > talisman. > > -David Rats. Can I safely assume that the creation process for artifacts, relics, talismans, et al will be in the Liber Requiem? ( I assume the creation process for any of them is not trivial). thanks. - -Daiv (oh, yeah, I'm stable). ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 12:03:17 EST From: "Perry M. Lloyd" Subject: IN> Can Soldiers hear the Symphony? I saw some talk that happened a few days ago about Soldiers perceiving the Symphony. As I'm running a Soldiers campaign (in which the first of the PCs is about to become a soldier), I'm VERY interested in knowing what people think about this. It was mentioned that the ability to manipulate one's own essence might requires being able to perceive the Symphony and therefore Soldiers would be able to hear the Symphony, thought it might be only snippits, depending on how high the soldier's perception is... What are your thoughts? - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd Check out the PBEM In Nomine: Soldiers of Linn webpage! "And all the time the joke is that the word 'mine' in its fully possessive sense cannot be uttered by a human being about anything. In the long run either Our Father or the Enemy will say 'mine' of each thing that exits, and specially of each man." -Screwtape (from The Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 12:08:49 EST From: "Perry M. Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Buddhist In Nomine > I was curious if there would be any interest on the list in this > project. It would be long (25+ installments) and I probably will > not finish it before the end of February. If there is interest I > will probably print it here on the list. If not, I may post it on Hell yeah! I'd love to see a Buddhist interpretation of In Nomine. There're Angels and Demons in Buddhism, too, right? One of the characters in my pbem (SOL: Soldiers of Linn see http: below) is a Zen Buddhist monk (Than Duc Lo). I'd be very, very interested in your interpretation, since I don't have much background at all in Zen Buddhism. - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd Check out the PBEM In Nomine: Soldiers of Linn webpage! "And all the time the joke is that the word 'mine' in its fully possessive sense cannot be uttered by a human being about anything. In the long run either Our Father or the Enemy will say 'mine' of each thing that exits, and specially of each man." -Screwtape (from The Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 98 12:10 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Ugly Vessels > Am I correct in assuming the following: > > 1) These points aren't somehow quantized into Role levels or Vessel >levels: If you have a Vessel/3 with Charisma-2 on it, the combination only >costs you five points, rather than 6. It simply means that the net cost of >a Vessel, its Role, and its Charisma can never be less than 0. In my campaign, I would never allow vessel cost to be reduced below 1; though by a strict reading of the text, it could be argued that it can't be reduced below 3 (i.e., you have to buy a vessel/1, and then any negative points can offset *added* features like Role or more levels). - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 17:19:10 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> FLUFF: Titles >>(feeling inadequate because I have no title!) >Oh, just pick one. Archives, Nitpicking, whatever. I seem to collect >Servitors... It's very bemusing. (Now to take the subtle approach) Err.. how do you deal with servitors who turn out to be totally incompetent? Like an archivist who reads the books when they are supposed to be filing them, or just stuffs them into the nearest gaps in the shelves when she^D^D^Dit gets bored... jo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 12:32:17 EST From: "Perry M. Lloyd" Subject: RE: IN> Fallen >Well, just recently saw the movie Fallen. I don't have a head for names >of actors, but I believe that was Denzel Washington (forgive my spelling >if I'm wrong) in there. > >Talk about a Shedim flick. The scene with the demon chasing the female >lead role through the crowd by body-hopping was really pretty. > >It was worth the $4.50 (w/ student discount). >Any of you see it yet and if so, what did ya think of it? > >-Perry [Armand] >I haven't managed to see "The Fallen" yet. I was wondering, being on the >subject of IN related movies, if anyone has seen "The Prophecy II". It has >been rented out at the video store I go to since its release. I've heard >that there is a good reason that it went straight to video, but I would >like to hear more if I can't manage to see it myself. Ooooh, The Prophecy II is in video store now? Yum. :) I think I know what this week-end has waiting for me. It's just Fallen, not The Fallen, I believe. Sorry, AA of Grammer on my back. F***ing Seraphim... [Kim Foster] >Saw it and posted to list about a little while ago....yep it just screams >Shedim. I'd say of Kronos..... Oh, hell yeah. Man, I don't want to spoil anyone's movie enjoyment, but... damn... If it's *that's* not Fate, I don't know what is. What was the line the demon had... "One [person] at a time. That's how we do it!" (Paraphrasing there) There was great stuff in there about Destiny and Fate. Like the idea that people with a great Destiny might be more difficult for a demon to possess? Wow... that's a great idea. - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd Check out the PBEM In Nomine: Soldiers of Linn webpage! "And all the time the joke is that the word 'mine' in its fully possessive sense cannot be uttered by a human being about anything. In the long run either Our Father or the Enemy will say 'mine' of each thing that exits, and specially of each man." -Screwtape (from The Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 10:44:25 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Angels and the Salvation of Man Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > Since the ultimate aim of Heaven is the salvation of mankind, it > is considered only right to give them a voice. Jesse said: > Says who? Neil said: > Me. :) > > *My* Heaven's so bright ya gotta wear shades. I think, in strict theology (Jewish, Christian, or Muslim), the ultimate aim of Heaven is the glorification of God, but it is equally true (in Jewish, Christian, or Muslim theology) that the ultimate aim of Heaven *for* *humanity* is its salvation, or some concept very close to the Christian-specific "salvation. > *That's* the standard angel PCs have to live up to. Real holiness > is a lot harder to roleplay than simple shades of grey. Nicely put. I have often considered that when thinking about angelic roleplaying that is at all serious, but never had the pithy words. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 98 13:06 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Can Soldiers hear the Symphony? [Perry:] >I saw some talk that happened a few days ago about Soldiers perceiving the >Symphony. As I'm running a Soldiers campaign (in which the first of the >PCs is about to become a soldier), I'm VERY interested in knowing what >people think about this. I believe it's canon that Soldiers *can* hear the Symphony, though probably not very well due to low Forces. I think only people who cannot hear it are mundanes. >It was mentioned that the ability to manipulate one's own essence might >requires being able to perceive the Symphony and therefore Soldiers would >be able to hear the Symphony, thought it might be only snippits, depending >on how high the soldier's perception is... I don't recall offhand if it says, but the writeup of Saints in Night Music may indicate that "unaware" Saints (my term for one who hasn't yet recalled his true nature) can't spend essence, but it seems likely that they would hear the Symphony. Also, I think the Children of the Grigori (in the couple paragraphs in the main book) may be able to hear it, evern though they are otherwise unaware of what they are, and may not be capable of conscious essence control. I suspect we'll hear more on this topic in the next cycle. In one of the campaigns I'm running, I have a character who isn't (yet) capable of conscious essence control, but *can* hear the Symphony. But he's a special case, and very non-canon. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 13:19:39 -0500 (EST) From: "York H. Dobyns" Subject: Re: IN> Angelic Words Neel Krishnaswami writes: [...] >Human beings, whether in life or in Heaven, seem incapable of gaining >words; the reasons for this remain obscure to the angels. Possibly only >Michael and Yves know for certain, and they aren't talking. According to IN, Lilith, Demon Princess of Freedom, was created a human (the "Eden Experiment" doesn't make any sense otherwise). This mortal is now a Demon Princess: not only Word-bound, but one of the major powers who transcend the game's mechanics entirely. It thus would appear to be possible in principle for a mortal's soul to become Word-bound. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 13:54:50 -0500 (EST) From: "York H. Dobyns" Subject: Re: IN> Kobal's Last Prank (was Re: IN> By Any Other Name) Earl Wajenberg writes: >> I may be asking an ignorent question but what is canon? > >No, "canon" is rather a rare word. I was surprised to see it >become current on this list; it may have to do with the fact that >the original list moderator was a priest. [...] >SJG publications for IN form the "canon" of IN, compared to which >GM variations and alternatives like "Dark Victory" are non-canonical. Rather than the priestly status of the moderator, I would suspect that it derives from the rather *common* usage of "canon" in SF fandom and related communities, to refer to the "official" version of some fictional universe in which multiple authors participate. Thus, for example, the Star Trek "canon" consists of everything that has appeared on a TV show or movie, but does *not* include the various events presented in the scads of ST franchise novels. (We may thus rest easy in the knowledge that canonically, James T. Kirk did in fact die before Jean-Luc Picard's eyes; his resurrection in subsequent novels by William Shatner is non-canonical.) Similar remarks apply to the Star Wars canon, the Babylon 5 canon, etc. This usage itself probably derives from ecclesiastical "canon" not directly but by way of the academic community, where scholars of English literature have for decades if not centuries talked about a "canon" of Important Works. People who've found their IN campaigns containing characters or events that turn out to be incompatible with some expansion of canon by SJG may thus console themselves with the knowledge that they enjoy the same lofty creative status as a Star Trek or Star Wars franchise author. (This is consolation?) ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #592 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.