From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Jan 29 13:20:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA25932 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 13:20:17 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id NAA08963 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 13:18:02 -0600 Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 13:18:02 -0600 Message-Id: <199801291918.NAA08963@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #602 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, January 29 1998 Volume 01 : Number 602 In this digest: Re: IN> Re: Role Problems Re: IN> In Nomine: Hindu Tradition Re: IN> Intervention stuff Re: IN> In Nomine: Hindu Tradition Re: IN> Fallen Re: IN> In Nomine: Hindu Tradition Re: IN> In Nomine: Hindu Tradition Re: IN> Kobal's Last Prank (was Re: IN> By Any Other Name) Re: IN> In Nomine: Hindu Tradition IN history (was Re: IN> Intervention stuff) Re: IN> Intervention stuff Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty (Re: IN> By Any Other Name) Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty (Re: IN> By Any Other Name) Re: IN> Janus and Valefor: FIGHT TO THE DEATH Re: IN> Lilith a human? Re: IN> In Nomine: Hindu Tradition IN> Re: IN history Re: IN> Nitpicking Beth IN> [A private "I lost your address!" *sigh*] Re: IN> Heaven and Hell IN> Yves and Kronos (was Re: Janus and Valefor: FIGHT TO THE DEATH) Re: IN> Nitpicking Beth Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty (Re: IN> By Any Other Name) Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty (Re: IN> By Any Other Name) Re: IN> Re: IN history Re: IN> Intervention stuff IN>In Nominati Re: IN> Lilith a human? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 09:16:56 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Re: Role Problems > It'd be a really cool plot for a newly-appointed Saint: > > "So what are you doing these days?" > "I died and went to heaven. Now I'm a saint - I kill people in the > name of the Lord." > "Oh - that's nice. How's the pay?" > "Pretty good." > > If his death was obscure enough, his Role might be intact, and his > vessel might have some, um, *improvements*. > You mean like some unsightly body armor, some metal spikes through the neck, a few tenticles, a large curly horn, one torn wing and some extra claws? - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 10:05:07 EST From: "Perry M. Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine: Hindu Tradition Earl Wajenberg >Perry M. Lloyd wrote: > >> I'd say that's pretty on target. This game has a problem with >> reality, namely that it's complete Western orietated. Was of the >> Chinese Gods, the African Gods? Can we expect to see how much Uriel >> damaged them in future supplements? > >*Ahem* The idea that the monotheistic religions are "Western" is >a popular error. The West is part of their territory; they are not >part of the West. D'oh! Too true... >As to the Chinese and African gods, my guess is that no more will be >said about them, simply because the general outline of pagan gods has >been given in "The Marches," and those are not, at the moment, very >popular pantheons to explore. > >SJG is in a bit of cleft stick about living paganism. This is because, >however polite people may or may not try to be in daily life, the >game's premise is that the monotheistic religions are more or less >true, and (1) it logically follows that other points of view, such >as atheism or polytheism, are less true the more they are incompatible >with monotheism, and (2) all three of big monotheisms have long, >essential, deep-grained traditions of relentless hostility to paganism. And hosility to each other. >These are, of course, very awkward and embarassing facts, and SJG >must, as a practical necessity, avoid drawing attention to them. >Silence is one of the best ways, and so "The Marches" only mentions >pantheons with very small numbers of modern adherents who are used >to having their deities taken as fictional and, for all I understand, >often don't take them terribly literally themselves anymore. That >is, I never heard of fundamentalist Wiccans, though I suppose they >may exist; I *know* there are fundamentalist Hindus. Oh, yes... >Another out is the match-up process whereby Gabriel = Siva, >Yves = Brahma, God = the All, etc. The technical name for it is >"syncretism." It's a very old game, but it is best played by GMs, >not SJG, since syncretism is NOT a game that all monotheists think >highly of. Alright, is this a list for people to discuss only what is canon? I don't know, I don't figure SJG *would* be interested in a canon melding of Hinduism into the game, but I also don't suspect they'll include Dark Victory (hopefully in a series of "Alerternate Worlds", though!) or In Nomine: Buddhism into the basic concepts of the game... yet we discuss them on this list. If we come up with more on this In Nomine: Hinduism kick, I'll let ya know. If anyone has ideas to lend, feel free, I'll be listening. - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd Check out the PBEM In Nomine: Soldiers of Linn webpage! "And all the time the joke is that the word 'mine' in its fully possessive sense cannot be uttered by a human being about anything. In the long run either Our Father or the Enemy will say 'mine' of each thing that exits, and specially of each man." -Screwtape (from The Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 10:10:57 -0500 From: Sean Michael Whipkey Subject: Re: IN> Intervention stuff At 19:18 -0500 1/28/98, Dan Ozdowski wrote: >Well, whatever the result, this occurance would be your cue as >a GM to start storytelling with something REALLY cool. I'd be more likely to use it as an excuse to whack both players upside the head and tell 'em to reroll. "Er, you just started Armaggeddon. Have a nice day. Oh, by the way, you both failed at your attempts. You, Mr. Angel, just woke up a big group of Calabites that were bored...and you, Mr. Demon, just alerted a crack squad of Laurence's Malakim. That is all." It'd probably end up in a tie, one way or the other. Depending on the nature of the contest would determine the other consequences... SeanMike - -- Sean Michael Whipkey, smw4s@virginia.edu Weldon Cooper Center for Public Service, Publications Div. 804/924-4185 (or -4188) voicenet, 804/982-5536 fax http://www.virginia.edu/~cpserv/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 10:14:16 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine: Hindu Tradition Perry M. Lloyd wrote: > Alright, is this a list for people to discuss only what is canon? I don't > know, I don't figure SJG *would* be interested in a canon melding of > Hinduism into the game, but I also don't suspect they'll include Dark > Victory (hopefully in a series of "Alerternate Worlds", though!) or > In Nomine: Buddhism into the basic concepts of the game... yet we > discuss them on this list. > > If we come up with more on this In Nomine: Hinduism kick, I'll let ya > know. If anyone has ideas to lend, feel free, I'll be listening. I *CERTAINLY* did not mean to stifle discussion of Hindu In Nomine on the list. As you say, that limitation would have cost us the delights of Dark Victory and lots of other fun stuff. Just to prove it, let me make an unsolicited recommendation. Instead of making Gabriel = Siva, make Michael = Siva and Gabriel = Agni. Agni is, if I recall, the Hindu god of fire (heck, his name is an old Indo-European word for "fire," clearly related to "ignus"). Michael have the Word of War on the side of good is a lot like Siva being the regenerating destroyer. Earl (P.S.: Novalis = Parvati? ) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 10:27:20 EST From: "Perry M. Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> Fallen >---Kevin Walsh wrote: >> To speak more plainly; the Word of your Superior is not Etiquette, but >> Nitpicking, and accuracy and clarity are more important than manners. >> Is this what has become of her Servitors in my absence? > > >I'd like to compliment you on the polite and civil tone of this justified >reprimand but was it completely necessary to include all of the headers in >your quote? They add little additional information, take up unnecessary >bandwidth, and add nothing to the point which you were making. This might >have been an appropriate point to make use of the ellipses you referred to >below. In future, I'd advise a golden rule of paring the included text to >20% of your total email length and note that a more appropriate >net.reference is to include the URL of the relevant archived digest. > >Your servant, > > >jo >netiquette daemon As jo the netiquette demon, Kevin Walsh, Renegade Balseraph, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia and an angel of etiquette argue over finer points of etiquette on the net, Perry begins to sneak carefully out of the room... - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd Check out the PBEM In Nomine: Soldiers of Linn webpage! "And all the time the joke is that the word 'mine' in its fully possessive sense cannot be uttered by a human being about anything. In the long run either Our Father or the Enemy will say 'mine' of each thing that exits, and specially of each man." -Screwtape (from The Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 15:43:43 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine: Hindu Tradition - ---"Perry M. Lloyd" wrote: >>(2) all three of big monotheisms have long, > >essential, deep-grained traditions of relentless hostility to paganism. > > And hostility to each other. I think all 3 had a decent tradition of getting along tolerably well under arab rule at one point. (I have a book of arab proverbs which includes the slightly bizarre: 'Dine with a Jew, seek shelter with a Christian.' -- so I assume medieval Jews were better cooks but medieval Christians had more comfortable beds) > Alright, is this a list for people to discuss only what is canon? I don't > know, I don't figure SJG *would* be interested in a canon melding of > Hinduism into the game, but I also don't suspect they'll include Dark > Victory (hopefully in a series of "Alerternate Worlds", though!) or > In Nomine: Buddhism into the basic concepts of the game... yet we > discuss them on this list. Oh no, I'd love to hear what you can come up with on the Hinduism front. Its a culture I find fascinating, but the Hindus I know are lapsed and not all that interested ;) I'm sure other people do as well -- but I think the argument here was why there would never be an inclusion of that pantheon in canon. jo ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:08:21 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine: Hindu Tradition > (I have a book of arab proverbs which includes the slightly bizarre: > 'Dine with a Jew, seek shelter with a Christian.' -- so I assume > medieval Jews were better cooks but medieval Christians had more comfortable > beds) That's not bizarre at all. The Medieval Islam tradition had very little intolerance for the other two major Monotheistic religions of the area, mostly because they were around and an influence when Mohammad was preaching at the Kadah in Mecca. And because the focus in the Koran is on poetry and the musical intonation on the words and not on the words themselves, it isn't suprising at all. It just means, hey, it's cool to hang out with them. Of course, things are different in modern times, but there are very good reasons for that. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 98 11:09 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Kobal's Last Prank (was Re: IN> By Any Other Name) >>If I might make a suggestion? If it is punishment that you wish to >>inflict on Habbalah, perhaps you should note that it has been observed that >>it is far more efficacious to give them a perfectly functional, but >>aesthetically unpleasing Vessel than to give them a less functional but >>attractive Vessel. > >Shar-pei puppies. The kind that are all skin. Or perhaps little >club-footed ones, with bad breath. Not to mention worms and the mange.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:25:58 -0500 (EST) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine: Hindu Tradition On Thu, 29 Jan 1998, Hart, Joanna wrote: > (I have a book of arab proverbs which includes the slightly bizarre: > 'Dine with a Jew, seek shelter with a Christian.' -- so I assume > medieval Jews were better cooks but medieval Christians had more comfortable > beds) I thought it was because Islam had dietary restrictions in much the same manner as Judaism, whereas Christians will eat anything. - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:26:58 -0500 (EST) From: "York H. Dobyns" Subject: IN history (was Re: IN> Intervention stuff) >In both cases, the circumstances will get wildly out of control for a >moment or two, but assume when the smoke clears that the angel will have >the upper hand. God may not be using the full brunt of her power out of >respect for whatever status quo he wants to uphold, but she's been at >this a lot longer than Lucifer has and knows a few more things. The phrase "at this a lot longer than Lucifer" brought up something that had been niggling at the back of my mind ever since reading the APG, but hadn't quite made it to the conscious level before. Has anyone considered the fact that the Fall is a very *recent* event by Celestial standards? The APG, both implicity in Yves' cosmogony seminar and explicitly in discussing the history of the Symphony, makes it clear that the Universe existed for a *long* time before humans showed up to throw a, pardon the expression, monkey wrench into the works. Lucifer, per the description, did not Fall until *after* Eden. In contrast, APG appears to stipulate the physical and evolutionary history of our current scientific worldview more or less in toto, with the sole variation of having celestials on the scene nudging things into the desired track. This would suggest that the Elder Archangels had been around for on the order of 10 *billion years* before one of them rebelled less than 10 millenia ago. Of course, IN's Celestials are principally concerned with Earth, so they might not have come on the scene until Earth did. And the celestial realm might have "fast-forwarded" through the boring bits of corporeal evolution where nothing much went on ("a thousand years are as but a day" and so forth). Even so, it seems likely that some older celestials would see the Fall and all its sequelae as a recent aberration, rather than the fundamental theme of history. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 98 11:26 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Intervention stuff >Two players are rolling directly against one another, >simultaneously in game time, and they get opposing >interventions. What happens? Any number of things. In my case, I'd probably have two Superiors "just happen" to show up, which is one of the things I've done with interventions. >Also, what would the difference be between HELPFUL >interventions (demon gets 666, angel gets 111) and catastrophic >interventions (demon gets 111, angel gets 666)? I could almost >see some form of mutual UH_OH! there. Favorable: their own Superiors show up and start duking it out, or otherwise resolve the situation, leaving the servitors free to slip away, or whatever they want. Essentially it nulls out, but probably *noisily*.... Unforvorable: unfriendly Superiors from both sides show up (i.e., if the angel is a servitor of Eli, Dominic shows up). The lowly servitors are ordered to attack the opposing *Superior*, or something equally disasterous, like both servitors being hauled off to trial (by Judgment and the Game, respectively). There are, of course, lots of other possibilities. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:35:43 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty (Re: IN> By Any Other Name) > My theory? He's not really an Ophanite or a Calabite. He's > something like a Kyrio with multiple personality dissorder; one of > the personalities fell, the other didn't. Whether this just > happened, or whether God or Yves had some hand in this to make a > sleeper agent, I haven't decided yet. > > It does explain why neither of his forms looks like the typical > member of their Choir/Band... I don't know if I like the Kyrio argument, because while he seems to be in two places at once, it doesn't really fit his _Word_. But the multiple personality disorder may be a manifestation of some major Superior level Discord. > > I avoided the intense Need (*stare direly at local Lilim*) to make > > them into Demons, the whole lot of them. But then I had so much > > ickiness going on, I really needed Laurence to be a Very Good Guy. > > And he's a Malakite, ya know. And he looks fabulous in leather. > > In my game, they are *technically* demons, in that they are already > in a fallen state. They don't have a non-fallen state, though. Lilim. :) *grin* > > I am unconvinced. Try again. :) > > Most angels fall by corrupting their resonance. Demons are created > with this corrupted resonance. The Lilim resonance is pure, and does > not depend on a fallen/unfallen state to remain pure. > > It is probably a bit of irony that Kobal would enjoy - that the > purest beings in the universe are demons. I had come to this conclusion before - that they are pure, yet demons. How ironic. :) They're Hellborn, so they don't have the Heaven view. Their resonance is neither good nor evil. They can be trusted, they can be very bad, they can be very good. Lilim are big ole' paradoxes. > > Yes, but that doesn't explain why I can't get a good haircut in > > Shal-Mari. > > Because being the Demon of Haircuts would just get a demon laughed > at? Because you don't tip the frotlings enough? Because Balseraphim > don't have hair? > I have perfect hair. Always. - - Em, Demon of Bein Very Mean. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 98 11:35 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty (Re: IN> By Any Other Name) [jo:] >I have a (stupid) theory also. They are two seperate people, and always >were. Created at the same time and one of them most certainly followed >Lucifer down to Hell. But now they are locked into a continuously changing >cycle and about once in every millenia one of them redeems and one of them >falls (simultaneously of course), they meet briefly, switch names, and.. >no-one else notices. Neither of them know why this seems to be their fate/ >destiny. So they are total archenemies, but they know very well that they >are so locked together that it would probably be impossible to destroy one >without destroying the other. Interesting theory. Unfortunately, I believe the Valefor writeup in the main book states that Valefor is relatively new. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:47:48 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Janus and Valefor: FIGHT TO THE DEATH On Wed, 28 Jan 1998, Jesse wrote: > >>> * The Janus/Valefor question, and especially "How he pulls it off". > > > Well, the APG points to Yves being the same or close to Kronos. Um... well... I have some disagreement with that, based on the grounds of how Yves was defined in the original rulebook. I was under the impression that Yves is: * A unique being, not of a band or choir * Created before all celestials * A special creation of God While Kronos is: * A Balseraph * One of the Fallen, so created much later then Yves * Not particularly special or unique in _nature_ even though he's a Prince. This leads me to believe that there is no way in Hell, literally, that Yves = Kronos. I simply cannot imagine Yves being subserviant to Lucifer, or not being allowed to 'do his own thing'. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 98 11:45 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Lilith a human? [Nathaniel:] >Can vessels be transeferred between Celestials? Because having a >valuable vessel (ie - one with a good Role) would be a hinderance to >advancement otherwise... A Superior probably could do it, or at least make an exact copy of the vessel -- I would say the Role is tied to the *appearance* of the vessel, not the specific instance. E.g., you could have two identical (at least in appearance) vessels, which shared the same Role. I doubt it would be common, but I can think of a few reasons why one might want to do that. So while vessels might or might not be directly transferable, Roles would be, if the other celestial had the right vessel. I would not allow celestials to trade vessels with each other, like they could with an artifact, though. Like normal vessel creation, this would be the province of Superiors, possibly with occasional exceptions. Hmmm... you might even have several celestials sharing a Role -- this would be a neat trick for Janus/Valefor's servitors. They could have a fixed-location Role split among several celestials. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:56:14 -0500 From: Jesse Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine: Hindu Tradition >Just to prove it, let me make an unsolicited recommendation. Instead >of making Gabriel = Siva, make Michael = Siva and Gabriel = Agni. >Agni is, if I recall, the Hindu god of fire (heck, his name is an >old Indo-European word for "fire," clearly related to "ignus"). >Michael have the Word of War on the side of good is a lot like >Siva being the regenerating destroyer. Nah. Michael does not destroy as much stuff as Siva and Gabriel do. Personally I think that Siva should be Belial, Gabriel or a new AA/DP. I see Michael as much more the Indra type. His Word is not really related to Indra's but they are both leaders. The APG makes the case that God=Symphony=Everything. If this is the case God would be good as the Brahman or god-head. As I recall there is some sort of technology/crafts demi-god in Hindism. Jean would play a good role for that. Forgive me if my spelling or concepts are worng, it has been a while since I studied Hindism. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:58:13 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> Re: IN history York H. Dobyns wrote: > The phrase "at this a lot longer than Lucifer" brought up something > that had been niggling at the back of my mind ever since reading the > APG, but hadn't quite made it to the conscious level before. [...] > This would suggest that the Elder Archangels had been around for on > the order of 10 *billion years* before one of them rebelled less than > 10 millenia ago. [...] > Even so, it seems likely that some older celestials would see the > Fall and all its sequelae as a recent aberration, rather than the > fundamental theme of history. Or perhaps they regard the present epoch as a crucial turning point in history. It makes for rather anthropocentric history, but there you are. If I were GMing, though, I'd probably arrange something like this: There have been upsets in celestial politics in the past, but the tumultuous eras have been interspersed with tranquil ones. The Fall represented the beginning of the latest tumult. And none of the previous tumults involved corporeal people, because there weren't any before. So there might have been rebels before Lucifer, now vanquished and forgotten, or retreated to the Far Marches, or once more reconciled and brought back into the fold. And, after enough time, everyone just forgot. It's been a long, long time, after all. Or the main celestials concerned have ascended to the Upper Heavens. On Earth... Stars and other planets have other hierarchies of celestials inhabiting them. For most of them, for most of the time, the planet is just a ball of dirt or ice or gas or plasma, and not much interest unless it involves your Word, of course. Typically, these other spheres are as inaccessible to celestials as they are to us, at least outside the solar system. The angels of our Sun and local planets might be minor onlookers to the local drama. There is also the amusing possibility of having the PCs run into *very* *old* celestials, who, say, were involved with the doings of a now-extinct race of aliens who had a colony on Earth in the Permian period. E.g., Cthulhu is a demonic with NO allegiance to Lucifer, but rather to "the daemon sultan Azathoth" and "the crawling chaos Nyarlathotep," who are part of a scheme of Fall and Redeption from very, very far away. Such Cosmic In Nomine might entail one of those rare opening of the Upper Heavens. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 98 12:02 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Nitpicking Beth >> Why the title? Well, the list *has* rather been hijacked, wouldn't >> you say? Besides, if Hardcore can get it, why not Nitpicking? >> Nitpicking occures in so many more areas, and is so much more >> insideous...) > ^^^^^^^^^ > > 'insidious' You can tell that she's not the Angel of Spelling.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 12:42:44 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> [A private "I lost your address!" *sigh*] [Whoever it was who was discussing a computer-Song with me, can you drop me a note? I've managed to lose your address... *sigh*] emccoy@nh.ultranet.com, Uppity Wynch http://brie.bmsc.washington.edu/people/merritt/books/Eye_of_Argon.html "rumoured to contain hoards of plunder, and many young wenches" Mike [falsetto]: "We're tired of these degrading patriachical slurs! From now on we demand to be called 'wynchys.'" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 12:53:20 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Heaven and Hell > > It boggles the mind. Kult? In Nomine? WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT! > > Certainly not me. > Actually, I was thinking of you when I wrote that, since that was an idea > you tossed out ages ago that's stuck with me... Part of being a Balseraph is sarcasm. It goes along with the good hair. :) > > *cackle evilly* That's a topic of conversationt that comes and goes, > > coming more then going these days. > > > > Maybe it's because I designed Dominic's side of the Spires using the > > Geburah writeup from Metropolis (although they defined where they Demiurge > > went, ick.) Maybe it's because I've been reading KULT scenarios lately > > for ideas and plans. But it just keeps coming up. > 'Cause it's good! Kult is really, really good, but it kinda loses its > impact once they players know what that entails... My opinion of the Great In Nomine/Kult crossover (which has been discussed on other KULT forums, including Target's bulliten board is): KULT makes for great background material, great scenes, and some general outright Evil. Want to jack up the nastiness of Saminga's troops? Want to make Malphas or Dominic or hell, Yves, far more nasty then the authors ever intented? There's some fantastic source material there. But just running KULT sort of detracts from both original games. On one side, you end up with KULT LITE, which is 'evil' in sort of a bloody Call of Cthulhu sort of way. On the other hand, you get an In Nomine that starts to move away from the flavor of the game and into somewhere I don't want to go. My take is: I'm pretty black when it comes to telling the story. I've already given my players nightmares, at least twice. But I like them to keep coming back to play the game. I don't need them getting sick on me. So... I just sort of cut one with the other, and then I'm set. - - Em. ;;;> ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 98 13:05 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: IN> Yves and Kronos (was Re: Janus and Valefor: FIGHT TO THE DEATH) [Em:} >Um... well... I have some disagreement with that, based on the grounds of >how Yves was defined in the original rulebook. I was under the impression >that Yves is: > >* A unique being, not of a band or choir >* Created before all celestials >* A special creation of God All correct, as I understand it. >While Kronos is: > >* A Balseraph Not really -- Lucifer turned him into something strongly resembling one, but he isn't. If I recall correctly, in his expanded writeup, he was a wounded remnant (or something similar) of another avatar of God. What he was *originally* isn't clear, except that it was something similar to Yves in some way. >* One of the Fallen, so created much later then Yves Presumably, he postdates Yves, but I don't think it's clear when he was created, or whether he Fell. Whatever he was originally, he was a fraction of it when Lucifer found him, and "repaired" him into a Bal. >* Not particularly special or unique in _nature_ even though he's a >Prince. Also not true -- he's still got connections to the Symphony, unlike normal demons, which is why he can grant angel-like attunements. I think there are one or two other quirky things about him in the basic book, but I don't recall them offhand. >This leads me to believe that there is no way in Hell, literally, that >Yves = Kronos. I simply cannot imagine Yves being subserviant to Lucifer, >or not being allowed to 'do his own thing'. As I understand it, Kronos is more like a remnant of a being like Yves, patched up into a demon-like being by Lucifer. I don't recall what was said about why Kronos was in this remnant state -- clearly if he started as something like Yves, it must have been a *major* thing. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 13:20:32 +0000 From: Nathaniel Eliot Subject: Re: IN> Nitpicking Beth > > Why the title? Well, the list *has* rather been hijacked, wouldn't > > you say? Besides, if Hardcore can get it, why not Nitpicking? > > Nitpicking occures in so many more areas, and is so much more > > insideous...) > ^^^^^^^^^ > > 'insidious' Geeze - any nit in a storm, huh? Seriously, it's getting old. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@mci2000.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 13:40:45 -0500 From: Sean Michael Whipkey Subject: Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty (Re: IN> By Any Other Name) At 11:35 -0500 1/29/98, Walter Milliken wrote: >Interesting theory. Unfortunately, I believe the Valefor writeup in the >main book states that Valefor is relatively new. Stealing the predictions of Nostradamus predates his ascension to Demon Prince; therefore, he's a relatively new Demon Prince. However, he was probably a demon for a lot longer then that. He easily could have Fallen with Lucifer, and took that long to reach Demon Prince-hood. SeanMike - -- SeanMike Whipkey (smw4s@virginia.edu) is: The Grinning Impudite of Andrealphus, Captain of Diabolical Delight South Republican Green Mamba Heavy Gear Pilot/Wildlander UVA Government Major/VP Paintball Club/GWAR Cyberslave/Pep Band Drummer ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 13:45:15 -0500 From: Sean Michael Whipkey Subject: Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty (Re: IN> By Any Other Name) At 11:35 -0500 1/29/98, Emily Dresner wrote: >I don't know if I like the Kyrio argument, because while he seems to be in >two places at once, it doesn't really fit his _Word_. But the multiple >personality disorder may be a manifestation of some major Superior level >Discord. I have an easier time seeing him racing back and forth, constantly and desperately trying to maintain two seperate identities. That would also help explain why he's become stagnant in his views as an Archangel. He became stagnant in the past few hundred years, right? And Valefor only became a demon prince a few hundred years ago, right? When Lucifer made Valefor a Demon Prince, he suddenly had a whole new slew of responsibilities. It's worse then juggling two full-time jobs. He barely has time to realize that as an Archangel, he's become obstinate in his views. He's too busy trying to keep up his own "image" that he doesn't change it, for fear of being discovered. Thus, he also keeps that nice maze in Hell, too, so that he can cut down on the number of demands he has for his attention. >Lilim are big ole' paradoxes. And that's why we love 'em. >I have perfect hair. Always. Watch out for mirrors; you may take dissonance.:::) SeanMike Balseraph of Unnecessary gratuitous disgusting statements ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 13:51:00 -0500 From: Sean Michael Whipkey Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN history At 11:58 -0500 1/29/98, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >Stars and other planets have other hierarchies of celestials inhabiting >them. For most of them, for most of the time, the planet is just a >ball of dirt or ice or gas or plasma, and not much interest unless it >involves your Word, of course. Typically, these other spheres are >as inaccessible to celestials as they are to us, at least outside the >solar system. The angels of our Sun and local planets might be minor >onlookers to the local drama. I'm running something similar to this for the background of my In Nomine campaign. There are angels and demons of the other planets in the solar system; they're busy trying to encourage space exploration to help expand their Words. As for aliens, well, there are some. I haven't exactly decided how I'm doing it yet, though. Should the archangels have a different "facet" to their vessels/personalities to appeal to an alien race, or are there alien archangels? Better yet - do they even worship God? How does the Celestial and Ethereal realms change as you reach the stars? Perhaps the War has already been fought to its bitter end on other worlds... >period. E.g., Cthulhu is a demonic with NO allegiance to Lucifer, but >rather to "the daemon sultan Azathoth" and "the crawling chaos >Nyarlathotep," who are part of a scheme of Fall and Redeption from >very, very far away. I have Cthulhu in my campaign also, but he's a renegade alien. He was created before the angels by God, but with so much free will that he just ignored God and went to explore the expanding Universe. When he came back around to devour Earth, God said, "I like these guys too much" and imprisoned him with the help of Uriel and some other angels. The question of "should God have given him free will?" led to Lucifer's fall. Lucifer soon found, though, that Cthulhu didn't like him, either. >Such Cosmic In Nomine might entail one of those rare opening of the >Upper Heavens. And lead to great questions about what they should and should not be doing to our intrepid investigating celestials. A celestial investigating the Mythos is on a whole different scale then your typical CoC investigator; and risks much, much more possibly. SeanMike - -- Sean Michael Whipkey, smw4s@virginia.edu Weldon Cooper Center for Public Service, Publications Div. 804/924-4185 (or -4188) voicenet, 804/982-5536 fax http://www.virginia.edu/~cpserv/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 13:53:37 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Intervention stuff Back on the subject of really unusual intervention results, here's one that happened last week in my game. The group's Cherub of Dominic had just been handed an assignment by Dominic. Dom had reason to believe that a fairly notorious Malakim of Eli (who is suspected of consorting with Etherial creatures, and of having formed an "underground" movement in Heaven to bring them back to the Corporeal realm) had just arrived in Washington D.C., and ordered the Cherub to keep an eye out for him. Since a player who has just joined our group plays a Malakim of Eli, the Cherub decided this would be a good place to start. Unfortunatly, this Cherub is a contender for the Word of Blunt Questions. So he naturally decided to try and be subtle; he got the group together and told them that he had reason to believe that one of them was a Balseraph who had infiltrated the group, and he wanted to attune to them one at a time in order to use his resonances to see who the demon was. Don't ask me *why* he wanted do do it this way. I just report 'em. He thought he was being clever. Well the Malakim of Eli (being the one the Cherub was looking for, and having a problem with Dominic anyway) refuses, blowing that plan. Before the Cherub can come up with another plan, the other Malakim in the group (yes, I have two of them; pray for me) suggests that the two Malakim "ping" everyone to find the Balseraph. Unwilling to admit what he was really doing, the Cherub agrees. The two Malakim go through the whole group, finding (surprise) no Balseraph. Then they check the Cherub, and the Malakim of War rolls a 666. So I laugh, and laugh some more, and tell the Malakim that the Cherub is really a Balseraph. Before anyone else can react, the Malakim lunges across the table at the Seraph, knocks him into the wall, and draws his "Celestial Flaming Turbo Chainsaw" (tm) on him. It took the etherial song of harmony, the other Malakim, and the Cherub going celestial to convince the Malakim of War that he was wrong. Rich Gant ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:07:57 -0800 (PST) From: Querent Subject: IN>In Nominati Paranoia? I think maybe there was another game in mind when those were written... *Further evidence that the tentacles of the Illuminati strtch even unto the celestial realm* IN NOMINE has 8 letters in it. (8=2^3) Humans have 5 forces. (5=2+3, also invokes the Law of Fives) Soldiers have 6 forces. (6=2*3) Soldiers are also able to perceive the symphony. Because of this they can control their essence use. Thus, soldiers become more powerful, once they become "illuminated". In the Game Master Pack, Litheroy's Mercurian attunement specifically deals with conspiracies. His servants also receive a +6 to invoke him upon uncovering an Illuminati plot. (ok, that one wasn't very well hidden.) Night Music promotes the city of Austin Texas as an In Nomine setting. This is the same Austin Texas that is home to the Illuminati's Online service. (funny that...) The Marches, pg. 87 has a picture of a demented house. The picture is a triangular shape with an eye in the middle. In the Angelic Player's Guide, the Kyriotate's choir logo includes three eyes in a pyramid. Also, the first of the choir logos, the Seraphim, appears on page 23. A symbol of truth on the page denoted by a symbol of the conspiracy? And lastly... There are 13 major Archangels, each with 7 choir attunements and 2 common servitor attunements. That's a total of 117 different attunements. Laurence makes his 2 servitor attunements available to soldiers, leaving 115 attunements beyond the ken of mortal men. (115=23*5, thus gaining the powers of the Law of Fives as well as 23's significance.) And these are only the ones the stood out like a sore thumb! - ---Jesse wrote: > > Hi folks. > > I just bought Heaven and Hell. 1023? Jean's Hall 23? Jeez, makes me want > a Paranoia-In Nomine crossover. == --Querent USELESS FACT: Ian Flemming considered the Walther PPK to be a "woman's gun." He used it in his Bond stories to show a lack of masculine toughness. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 14:17:29 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilith a human? At 11:31 PM +0000 1/28/98, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: >> >[...] So what's the difference between >> >an UberSaint of Yves with the Elohim resonance, and a powerful Elohim >> >of Yves? >> >> The Line Editor bares her Djinn fangs at the author who tried it for >> publication? > >Eep! I wasn't trying for publication, just making a point that was >heavily entrenched in canon... Heh... Ah, but if there's something sticky, I can try to get people *not* to do it until there's a good explanation for it... >> I'll think on it. (One thing is that they don't have Hearts -- and >> probably *couldn't* take dissonance. They might take Body hits or >> Soul hits instead. Interesting notion...) > >Hmmm - interesting indeed. Not the way I would have done it, but >then I'm not a canon-hound anyway. It's something to think on, oh definitely. What would you have done? >[They don't have Hearts? Oh, right - naturally inclined toward the >Upper Heavens. Okay.] [Of course, once they go back onto Earth, I suppose there's a chance that they could be "tripped," same as an Angel. Corrupted. Turned evil... Hm. Shedim and Saints...] [finally recovering... ] - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #602 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.