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in_nomine-digest       Friday, January 30 1998       Volume 01 : Number 603



In this digest:

   The Kyrio Resonance for other celestials (Re: IN> Lilith a human?)
   Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty (Re: IN> By Any Other Name)
   Re: IN> Nitpicking Beth
   IN> test
   Re: IN history (was Re: IN> Intervention stuff)
   Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty (Re: IN> By Any Other Name)
   IN> test
   Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty (Re: IN> By Any Other Name)
   Re: IN> Fallen
   Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty (Re: IN> By Any Other Name)
   Re: IN> In Nomine: Hindu Tradition
   Re: IN history (was Re: IN> Intervention stuff)
   IN> Nemesis
   Re: IN> Nemesis
   IN> Connection to the Symphony
   RE: IN> Connection to the Symphony
   Re: IN> Lilith a human?
   Re: IN> Nitpicking Beth
   Re: IN> Connection to the Symphony
   Re: IN> Lilith a human?
   IN> FLUFF: Xtian Food
   Re: IN> Lilith a human?
   IN> Re: IN History
   Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty (Re: IN> By Any Other Name)
   Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty (Re: IN> By Any Other Name)
   IN> Superiors' Notes: Yves and Kronos
   Re: IN> Angels and the Salvation of Man
   Re: IN> Doing something behind his DP's back
   IN> What is canon
   Re: IN> Tangents (was Re: IN> Angelic Words)
   Re: Canon (Re: IN> Kobal's Last Prank)
   Re: IN> In Nomine: Hindu Tradition
   Re: IN> Fallen

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 14:18:26 -0500
From: Elizabeth McCoy <emccoy@nh.ultranet.com>
Subject: The Kyrio Resonance for other celestials (Re: IN> Lilith a human?)

At 10:50 PM -0500 1/28/98, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote:
>What happens exactly with the Balseraph of Kronos' Attunement?
>
[...]
>	I'll add a note that an existing vessel
>is unusable.

But not "lost" -- if they lose the attunement (get Redeemed, say),
they once again can use their vessel.

Or so I'd think.

At 11:31 PM +0000 1/28/98, Nathaniel Eliot wrote:
>Can vessels be transeferred between Celestials?  Because having a 
>valuable vessel (ie - one with a good Role) would be a hinderance to 
>advancement otherwise...

I would assume a Superior could do that (or create a lookalike
vessel).


[finally recovering... <coughcough>]
- --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com  In Nomine Line Editor
GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 13:13:36 -0600 (CST)
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty (Re: IN> By Any Other Name)

On Thu, 29 Jan 1998, Sean Michael Whipkey wrote:
> At 11:35 -0500 1/29/98, Emily Dresner wrote:
> >I don't know if I like the Kyrio argument, because while he seems to be in
> >two places at once, it doesn't really fit his _Word_.  But the multiple
> >personality disorder may be a manifestation of some major Superior level
> >Discord.
> 
> I have an easier time seeing him racing back and forth, constantly and
> desperately trying to maintain two seperate identities.
> 
> That would also help explain why he's become stagnant in his views as an
> Archangel.  He became stagnant in the past few hundred years, right?  And
> Valefor only became a demon prince a few hundred years ago, right?

It has been stated that Archangels, at least, can be in more than one
place at a time and do more than one thing at a time.  I don't think
that this has anything to do with band or choir attunements, it's just
one of those things that Archangels (and possibly Demon Princes) can
do.  They are quite a bit more powerful than mere PC-type angles and
demons.

Bolie IV


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 14:35:13 -0500
From: Elizabeth McCoy <emccoy@nh.ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: IN> Nitpicking Beth

At 8:30 AM -0500 1/29/98, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote:
>> Nitpicking occures in so many more areas, and is so much more
>> insideous...)
>  ^^^^^^^^^
>	'insidious'
>	-john 'Demon Prince of Rules Lawyers' karakash-

But you're using one of my rites....  I never said I could spell,
though. I'm Nitpicking, not Spelling.


(And, to quote Eris, "If you don't want to do it anymore, stop.")


- --Beth, Demon Princess of Nitpicking
http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/INChar/Demons/Prince.Beth.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 20:13:21 +0100
From: "Lasse Lind Petersen" <banshee@vip.cybercity.dk>
Subject: IN> test

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BD2CF2.5857D1A0
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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Just Ignore This!

In Heavenly Love

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<BODY bgColor=3D#f0e8d8>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Just Ignore This!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>In Heavenly Love</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BD2CF2.5857D1A0--

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 14:50:08 -0500
From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC)
Subject: Re: IN history (was Re: IN> Intervention stuff)

	<Good arguments snipped>

> Of course, IN's Celestials are principally concerned with Earth, so
> they might not have come on the scene until Earth did. And the celestial
> realm might have "fast-forwarded" through the boring bits of corporeal
> evolution where nothing much went on ("a thousand years are as but a
> day" and so forth). Even so, it seems likely that some older celestials
> would see the Fall and all its sequelae as a recent aberration, rather
> than the fundamental theme of history.

	Don't be so certain.  Humans tend to (or tended to before
we invented time-keeping devices) measure time by the passage
of events.  Especially significant events.  Immortal beings
would probably take this to an extreme.  Even a busy angel's
life was probably idyllic before the Fall.
	"Helping build that nebula the other day was a hoot, wasn't
it Fred?"
	"Sure was.  How long has it been?"
	"By human years... Ummmm, I think about 4.5 billion."

	The number of significan't events _before_ the
fall was probably quite low compared to the number that
happen on a daily basis between the host and the fallen.


- -- 
 ___________________________________________________
/                                                   \
|   John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs    |
|           (919)380-4629                            |
|                                                    |
| The power to tax involves the power to destroy.    |
|         -Chief Justice Marshall                    |
\___________________________________________________/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 19:49:38 +0000
From: Jo Hart <jhart@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty (Re: IN> By Any Other Name)

At 11:35 29/01/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
>> 
>
>I have perfect hair.  Always.
>


Yes, but whose is it?


jo
- ----------
"I like getting into hot water, it keeps me clean."
G. K. Chesterton


jhart@btinternet.com --   http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~jhart/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 20:15:19 +0100
From: "Lasse Lind Petersen" <banshee@vip.cybercity.dk>
Subject: IN> test

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BD2CF2.9F0ED8A0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Just Ignore This!

In Heavenly Love.

- ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BD2CF2.9F0ED8A0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.71.1712.3"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#f0e8d8>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Just Ignore This!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>In Heavenly =
Love.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BD2CF2.9F0ED8A0--

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 15:00:29 -0500 (EST)
From: Emily Dresner <zenith@umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty (Re: IN> By Any Other Name)

> >
> >I have perfect hair.  Always.
> >
> 
> 
> Yes, but whose is it?
> 

That *is* the mystery, now, isn't it? :::>

- - em

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 20:04:12 +0000
From: Jo Hart <jhart@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: IN> Fallen

At 10:27 29/01/98 EST, you wrote:
>  
>
>As jo the netiquette demon, Kevin Walsh, Renegade Balseraph, Demon of 
>Off-Topic Trivia and an angel of etiquette argue over finer points of
>etiquette on the net, Perry begins to sneak carefully out of the room...
>
>-Perry
>

Brings a totally new meaning to the phrase 'civil war'


jo
- ----------
"I like getting into hot water, it keeps me clean."
G. K. Chesterton


jhart@btinternet.com --   http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~jhart/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 15:04:38 -0500
From: Earl Wajenberg <earlw@mc.com>
Subject: Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty (Re: IN> By Any Other Name)

> >I have perfect hair.  Always.

> Yes, but whose is it?

Reminiscent of, "People have accused me of being heartless.  That's 
untrue.  I have the heart of a small child.  I keep it in my desk 
drawer."

         -- Robert Block, author of "Psycho"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 20:09:36 +0000
From: Jo Hart <jhart@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine: Hindu Tradition

At 11:08 29/01/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
>> (I have a book of arab proverbs which includes the slightly bizarre:
>> 	'Dine with a Jew, seek shelter with a Christian.'  -- so I assume
>> medieval Jews were better cooks but medieval Christians had more
comfortable
>> beds)
>
>That's not bizarre at all.  The Medieval Islam tradition had very little
>intolerance for the other two major Monotheistic religions of the area,
>mostly because they were around and an influence when Mohammad was
>preaching at the Kadah in Mecca.  

Well thats why I said
>I think all 3 had a decent tradition of getting along tolerably well under
arab rule at one point. 

I thought it was a bit bizarre because Jewish culture has a traditional
focus on food (ie. all the stereotypical Jewish mothers) and I was
wondering from that proverb whether that might have been the case in
medieval times as well. But I take your point ;)

jo
'A good liar needs a good memory' -- Arabic Proverb ;)
- ----------
"I like getting into hot water, it keeps me clean."
G. K. Chesterton


jhart@btinternet.com --   http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~jhart/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 15:30:42 -0500
From: "Mark McKenzie" <markadv@kinekom.com>
Subject: Re: IN history (was Re: IN> Intervention stuff)

John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote:
> 

>         Don't be so certain.  Humans tend to (or tended to before
> we invented time-keeping devices) measure time by the passage
> of events.  

A trend that continues to this day. Today, it is not unusual to find
time "measured" in nanoseconds (for instance, the chips in the computer
you're reading this message on), a measurement that would have no
practical utility just a generation or two ago. 

- -- 
Mark McKenzie
E-mail: markadv@kinekom.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 15:45:29 -0500 (EST)
From: Raoul Duke <jchurch@bu.edu>
Subject: IN> Nemesis

Looking for some input here...

I'm running an irregular series of one-shots, and at the climax of the
last one, the group's Shedite Celestial Motioned a bomb into the coma ward
of a hospital, where the group's Cherub was attuned to seven patients, and
five of them wound up dead.  He later converted three of the points to
Discord.  Now, I see the bit in the APG about Nemesis attunements to
someone who kills a Cherub's attunement, and removing dissonace thereby.
I'd imagine he'd've attuned right there on the spot, but I'm a little
unsure on these:

Would he get Nemeses based on the number of previous attunements, or based
on the number of enemies (does the Shed have one or five on him?)

Would killing the Shed rid him of five points, or just one?  What about
the Discord?

Would killing the Shed's vessel be enough, or would he have to celestially
destroy him (dang Shedites are slippery enough as is)?

I'm thinking that there'd be one nemesis on the Shedite, and killing him
would clear up two points (the Discord'd stay), but I'm undecided about
corporeal or celestial vengeance, as having a horse killed out from under
him would only inconvenience the Shedite, and celestial combat is usually
more trouble than it's worth, especially against 12 Will Shedim...

Joe
- ------
Big Brother's watching?  Learn to become Invisible.
"We prefer our metaphysics with a money-back guarantee."-- Penn & Teller
How I waste my time: http://acs1.bu.edu:8001/~arie/rpg.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 16:10:45 -0500
From: Elizabeth McCoy <emccoy@nh.ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: IN> Nemesis

At 3:45 PM -0500 1/29/98, Raoul Duke wrote:
>I'm running an irregular series of one-shots, and at the climax of the
>last one, the group's Shedite Celestial Motioned a bomb into the coma ward
>of a hospital, where the group's Cherub was attuned to seven patients, and
>five of them wound up dead.  He later converted three of the points to
>Discord.  Now, I see the bit in the APG about Nemesis attunements to
>someone who kills a Cherub's attunement, and removing dissonace thereby.
>I'd imagine he'd've attuned right there on the spot, but I'm a little
>unsure on these:
>
>Would he get Nemeses based on the number of previous attunements, or based
>on the number of enemies (does the Shed have one or five on him?)

I'd say that if it's the same enemy, then there's only one Nemesis.

>Would killing the Shed rid him of five points, or just one?  What about
>the Discord?

Not the Discord -- that's the risk (and why some angels keep dissonance
instead). Dissonance can be removed. Discord can't, except by Superiors
(and maybe McGuffins).  Killing the Shedite... Hm. Probably only one.
Cherubim shouldn't spread themselves around.  (If you, as GM, want to
let him get rid of the remaining two points of dissonance, that's
cool too.)

>Would killing the Shed's vessel be enough, or would he have to celestially
>destroy him (dang Shedites are slippery enough as is)?

This is up to the GM. It has to be an appropriate punishment (and killing
a Shedite-host just makes noise and the Shedite giggle).  I suggest
sedatives, McGuffin keep-it-in-the-host relics, and an angelic Tether
with several Malakim around.

(If the Cherub can work it so that the Sheddie gets bounced back to
Hell, loses a Force or two, or is otherwise pained, that would probably
be enough for one of the notes of dissonance; soul-killing something
like that probably *is* big enough for both remaining notes!)

Or so I'd work it. The GM is always the ultimate authority in hir game.

[finally recovering... <coughcough>]
- --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com  In Nomine Line Editor
GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 16:32:26 -0500 (EST)
From: "York H. Dobyns" <ydobyns@phoenix.Princeton.EDU>
Subject: IN> Connection to the Symphony

I just noticed another of those little awkward details.

People, including IN Canon, keep talking about how demons can't hear
the Symphony, have lost their connection to the Symphony, hear only
their own private little symphonies, etc., etc.  Even the APG piece
on "Falling" talks about hearing the Symphony fade away as his whole
worldview wrenched itself around.

So, if demons can't hear the Symphony and have no connection with it
anymore, how do they detect Symphonic disturbance?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 13:51:29 -0800
From: "Steven Feldon (Exchange)" <sfeldon@exchange.microsoft.com>
Subject: RE: IN> Connection to the Symphony

The way I always justified this was imagining that Angels are listening
to Beethoven and Demons are listening to construction noise.  When a
disturbance happens, both can hear it, but it's disturbing different
things. . . . 

steve

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	York H. Dobyns [SMTP:ydobyns@phoenix.Princeton.EDU]
> Sent:	Thursday, January 29, 1998 4:32 PM
> To:	in_nomine-l@lists.io.com
> Subject:	IN> Connection to the Symphony
> 
> I just noticed another of those little awkward details.
> 
> People, including IN Canon, keep talking about how demons can't hear
> the Symphony, have lost their connection to the Symphony, hear only
> their own private little symphonies, etc., etc.  Even the APG piece
> on "Falling" talks about hearing the Symphony fade away as his whole
> worldview wrenched itself around.
> 
> So, if demons can't hear the Symphony and have no connection with it
> anymore, how do they detect Symphonic disturbance?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 16:59:56 +0000
From: Nathaniel Eliot <temujin9@mci2000.com>
Subject: Re: IN> Lilith a human?

> >Eep!  I wasn't trying for publication, just making a point that was 
> >heavily entrenched in canon...
> 
> Heh... Ah, but if there's something sticky, I can try to get people
> *not* to do it until there's a good explanation for it...

The thing is, I could sit down and work out a good explanation for it 
happening at least once.

> >> I'll think on it. (One thing is that they don't have Hearts -- and
> >> probably *couldn't* take dissonance. They might take Body hits or
> >> Soul hits instead. Interesting notion...)
> >
> >Hmmm - interesting indeed.  Not the way I would have done it, but 
> >then I'm not a canon-hound anyway.
> 
> It's something to think on, oh definitely.  What would you have
> done?

Probably just imposed dissonance.  But then I'm working from the idea 
that Celestials are just hopped up copies of Ethereals, which are 
often just humans that have managed to self-illuminate.  Dissonance, 
therefore, is just a result of Resonanting with part of the Symphony.

> >[They don't have Hearts?  Oh, right - naturally inclined toward the 
> >Upper Heavens.  Okay.]
> 
> [Of course, once they go back onto Earth, I suppose there's a chance
> that they could be "tripped," same as an Angel. Corrupted. Turned
> evil...  Hm. Shedim and Saints...]

So if a Saint of Yves with the Elohim resonance were to trip, would 
it act like a Habbalah?  Hehe...evil stuff is churning...


Nathaniel Eliot
temujin9@mci2000.com

"It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or
a star in Hell.  But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell.  On 
a good day, it can look like LA."
     - Playing God

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 09:39:46 +1100
From: christopher.stevenson@aihw.gov.au (Chris Stevenson)
Subject: Re: IN> Nitpicking Beth

>> > Who ever said Lucifer wanted efficiency?  An efficient organization
>> > can replace it's leader quite efficiently.
>>
>> But if Hell isn't efficient -- if Satan doesn't care how well he
>> fights the War -- then what's the point of fighting?
>
>Two possibilities:
>
>1) Satan knows he is Fated to loose.  He is just doing it because he
>can (for a while) thumb his nose at God, and because it's something
>to pass the time.  Why do you think Asmodeus (Game) and Kobal
>(Dark Humor) are mentioned as being favorites of his?

Depends whether God has self-imposed limits in the salvation game. But, for
a proud angel, anything's better than spending all your time fawning over
God (which reminds me of Peter Cook dressed as a traffic warden and sitting
on a letter box while Dudley Moore dances around him - ahh, 'Bedazzled';
Lillian Lust, the Babe with the Bust... oops, excuse me).

>2) Satan does want to win the war, but he want's his own hide to be
>intact more.  So he keeps hell unstable and inefficent so the Princes
>won't band together and gobble him up.
>
>Nathaniel Eliot
>temujin9@mci2000.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 17:50:59 -0500
From: Elizabeth McCoy <emccoy@nh.ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: IN> Connection to the Symphony

At 4:32 PM -0500 1/29/98, York H. Dobyns wrote:
>I just noticed another of those little awkward details.
>
>People, including IN Canon, keep talking about how demons can't hear
>the Symphony, have lost their connection to the Symphony, hear only
>their own private little symphonies, etc., etc.  Even the APG piece
>on "Falling" talks about hearing the Symphony fade away as his whole
>worldview wrenched itself around.
>
>So, if demons can't hear the Symphony and have no connection with it
>anymore, how do they detect Symphonic disturbance?

Just because you're wearing a walkman with loud rock doesn't mean
you can't hear something that's loud enough to get through... Disturbances
in the True Symphony qualify.

And/or the "ripples" of the True Symphony against their personal
symphonies will change when there's a disturbance.  Howzat?


[finally recovering... <coughcough>]
- --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com  In Nomine Line Editor
GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 17:50:00 -0500
From: Elizabeth McCoy <emccoy@nh.ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: IN> Lilith a human?

At 4:59 PM +0000 1/29/98, Nathaniel Eliot wrote:
>> >Eep!  I wasn't trying for publication, just making a point that was 
>> >heavily entrenched in canon...
>> 
>> Heh... Ah, but if there's something sticky, I can try to get people
>> *not* to do it until there's a good explanation for it...
>
>The thing is, I could sit down and work out a good explanation for it 
>happening at least once.

Yes, and your point is?  Until I've figured out what should happen,
you're not going to see it in print. Do what*ever* you want to personally,
of course!

>>>> I'll think on it. (One thing is that they don't have Hearts -- and
>>>> probably *couldn't* take dissonance. They might take Body hits or
>>>> Soul hits instead. Interesting notion...)
>>>
>>>Hmmm - interesting indeed.  Not the way I would have done it, but 
>>>then I'm not a canon-hound anyway.
>>
>>It's something to think on, oh definitely.  What would you have
>>done?
>
>Probably just imposed dissonance.  But then I'm working from the idea 
>that Celestials are just hopped up copies of Ethereals, which are 
>often just humans that have managed to self-illuminate.  Dissonance, 
>therefore, is just a result of Resonanting with part of the Symphony.

Oh, well, then -- dissonance is perfectly appropriate in that case.

>>>[They don't have Hearts?  Oh, right - naturally inclined toward the 
>>>Upper Heavens.  Okay.]
>>
>>[Of course, once they go back onto Earth, I suppose there's a chance
>>that they could be "tripped," same as an Angel. Corrupted. Turned
>>evil...  Hm. Shedim and Saints...]
>
>So if a Saint of Yves with the Elohim resonance were to trip, would 
>it act like a Habbalah?  Hehe...evil stuff is churning...

Sick. I don't think so... Not unless you're using your "hopped up
Ethereals" premise.


[finally recovering... <coughcough>]
- --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com  In Nomine Line Editor
GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:45:33 -0500
From: "Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki" <dankmyka@wfu.edu>
Subject: IN> FLUFF: Xtian Food

>I thought it was because Islam had dietary restrictions in much the same 
>manner as Judaism, whereas Christians will eat anything. 

*Haagenti-inspired image of Christians devouring their children in a white
wines sauce, with dirt for dessert...*

- --
Kirt "Loki" Dankmyer <loki@wfu.edu> PGP key avail. My opinions are my own.
love * Eris * RPGs  * Anime * Magick * Carroll * techno * hats * cats * Dada
I waked, she fled, and day brought back my night. --Milton

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 20:53:05 +0000
From: Nathaniel Eliot <temujin9@mci2000.com>
Subject: Re: IN> Lilith a human?

> >The thing is, I could sit down and work out a good explanation for it 
> >happening at least once.
> 
> Yes, and your point is?  Until I've figured out what should happen,
> you're not going to see it in print. Do what*ever* you want to
> personally, of course!

Sorry, misunderstood your statement.  Nevermind.

(I have got to stop posting on so little sleep...)

> >So if a Saint of Yves with the Elohim resonance were to trip, would 
> >it act like a Habbalah?  Hehe...evil stuff is churning...
> 
> Sick. I don't think so... Not unless you're using your "hopped up
> Ethereals" premise.

That's the one thing that In Nomine truely lacks, and something I am 
trying to add in my ideas, is a good solid metaphysics.  Without it, 
you can't easily tell whether something interesting is possible.  
With it, the interesting ideas self-generate.


Nathaniel Eliot
temujin9@mci2000.com

"It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or
a star in Hell.  But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell.  On 
a good day, it can look like LA."
     - Playing God

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 21:38:26 -0500
From: Neel Krishnaswami <neelk@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: IN> Re: IN History

From: Earl Wajenberg <earlw@mc.com>

>York Dobyns wrote:
>> The phrase "at this a lot longer than Lucifer" brought up something 
>> that had been niggling at the back of my mind ever since reading the 
>> APG, but hadn't quite made it to the conscious level before.[...]
>> This would suggest that the Elder Archangels had been around for on 
>> the order of 10 *billion years* before one of them rebelled less than 
>> 10 millenia ago.[...]
>>
>> Even so, it seems likely that some older celestials would see the 
>> Fall and all its sequelae as a recent aberration, rather than the 
>> fundamental theme of history.
>
>Or perhaps they regard the present epoch as a crucial turning point 
>in history. It makes for rather anthropocentric history, but there you 
>are.

I prefer the idea that the Fall was a singular event, since that 
increases the dramatic value and makes it easier to use traditional
theology in a game. Plus, it lets me do things like let David
grumble about how he thought he had gotten to know Lucifer after 
hanging out with him for a few billion years.

>
>On Earth...
>
>Stars and other planets have other hierarchies of celestials inhabiting 
>them.  For most of them, for most of the time, the planet is just a 
>ball of dirt or ice or gas or plasma, and not much interest unless it 
>involves your Word, of course.  Typically, these other spheres are 
>as inaccessible to celestials as they are to us, at least outside the 
>solar system.  The angels of our Sun and local planets might be minor 
>onlookers to the local drama.

In my game, there is the archangel Jerah, angel of the Moon. She 
entered Celestial politics in 1969, after these disgusting little
Fallen humans came and *crawled all over her lovely moon*. Sadly,
she has no Servitors, since she has no interest in increasing her
dealings with man. She just wants the archangels to keep them away
from her pure and pristine world. She's a Cherub, attuned to the 
whole Moon, who really does not appreciate Jean's insistence that man
be allowed space travel.

>There is also the amusing possibility of having the PCs run into 
>*very* *old* celestials, who, say, were involved with the doings of 
>a now-extinct race of aliens who had a colony on Earth in the Permian 
>period.  E.g., Cthulhu is a demonic with NO allegiance to Lucifer, but 
>rather to "the daemon sultan Azathoth" and "the crawling chaos 
>Nyarlathotep," who are part of a scheme of Fall and Redeption from 
>very, very far away.

:) In my game, there are many other intelligent races in the Universe.
None of the others succumbed to temptation the way Adam and Eve did,
though. Mankind is the only species that is fallen. That's why demons 
work so obsessively to corrupt mankind -- they are the only known source 
of Essence Hell has. 

(In passing: have you ever noticed how demons of the Game regenerate 
*2* points of Essence each day, and how the Game is in charge of 
distributing souls? One guess where demons get their Essence from, 
kids.)

It's also why a disproportionate number of angels are so focused on 
Earth: human souls are so at risk for damnation that it justifies the
direct attention of angels like Michael, God's own champion.

It also explains the Fermi paradox -- other sentient races regard the
prospect of contact with humanity in much the same way you or I would
look forward to a dinner date with Charles Manson. :)

- ----
Neel Krishnaswami
neelk@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 98 22:20 EST
From: Walter Milliken <milliken@BBN.COM>
Subject: Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty (Re: IN> By Any Other Name)

[SeanMike:]
>At 11:35 -0500 1/29/98, Walter Milliken wrote:
>>Interesting theory.  Unfortunately, I believe the Valefor writeup in the
>>main book states that Valefor is relatively new.
>
>Stealing the predictions of Nostradamus predates his ascension to Demon
>Prince; therefore, he's a relatively new Demon Prince.

Actually, it says "appeared on the scene a few centuries back", not that
that's when he was made Prince (though it could have been then).

>However, he was probably a demon for a lot longer then that.  He easily
>could have Fallen with Lucifer, and took that long to reach Demon
>Prince-hood.

It sounds like, if he was, he was a pretty obscure demon until recently.


- ---Walter

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 98 22:25 EST
From: Walter Milliken <milliken@BBN.COM>
Subject: Re: Canon Doubt And Uncertainty (Re: IN> By Any Other Name)

[SeanMike:]
>That would also help explain why he's become stagnant in his views as an
>Archangel.  He became stagnant in the past few hundred years, right?

Few thousand, actually -- it says "millenia".

>  And
>Valefor only became a demon prince a few hundred years ago, right?

That certainly seems to be the case.

Unfortunately, that pretty much blows the theory that Janus became set
in his ways because of Valefor (in whatever way).


He may be only unchanging in the sense that his chaotic nature is
generally the same *sort* of chaos, just like the Mandelbrot set is
always the same shape, though highly chaotic.


- ---Walter

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 98 22:42:39 PST
From: "bruce dykes" <bdykes@intac.com>
Subject: IN> Superiors' Notes: Yves and Kronos

The way I see the Yves and Kronos:

Yves and Kronos mark the only instance of *true* Zoroastrian duality.
Destiny will not exist without Fate/Fate will not exist without Destiny.

To strengthen this, I would posit that Kronos is the only demon who is
still connected to the Symphony. His Word is actually a part of the
Symphony rather than the result of him imposing his will on the Symphony.

Just two notes' worth...
Bruce
Impudite Captain of Cross Licensing 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 23:33:40 EST
From: Heretic103@aol.com
Subject: Re: IN> Angels and the Salvation of Man

In a message dated 98-01-25 19:51:17 EST, you write:

<< It seems to me that a story line in which angels aim for the downfall of
 humanity would go over well.  Perhaps God is sick and tried of us >>

HECK! I know I am!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 23:51:16 EST
From: Heretic103@aol.com
Subject: Re: IN> Doing something behind his DP's back

In a message dated 98-01-26 03:59:05 EST, you write:

<< For GM purposes I don't really need to know how it's possible, or even that
it
 is possible. But I would like to know where a demon's efforts would likely be
 directed. >>

If he got a word relating to that attunment he would be able to make anyone he
wanted

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 23:53:28 EST
From: Heretic103@aol.com
Subject: IN> What is canon

Please for the last time will some one tell me what canon is?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 23:57:06 EST
From: Heretic103@aol.com
Subject: Re: IN> Tangents (was Re: IN> Angelic Words)

In a message dated 98-01-26 19:26:10 EST, you write:

<< My friend told me that, while he found no theological problem with the
 idea of roleplaying angels, the idea seemed to involve some risk that
 the GM would be obliged to roleplay God; something that smacked, to him,
 of blasphemy. I was able to point out instantly that the structure of
 the game almost guarantees that the GM *won't* ever be obliged to
 roleplay God (and practically tells players flat-out not to expect this
 of the GM). Moments thereafter, I found myself wondering if this was
 cleverness on the game designers' parts, or just luck. (Obviously I'm 
 posting in the right venue to get a straight answer to that one :-).) >>

Simple answer to all of this: do what ever you want, if you as a GM decide to
potray god like this then do it, if a players got a problem with is they don't
have to play

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 00:03:10 EST
From: Heretic103@aol.com
Subject: Re: Canon (Re: IN> Kobal's Last Prank)

In a message dated 98-01-26 20:45:26 EST, you write:

<< My online American Heritage dictionary says:
 
 can.on, n. Abbr. can.
 1. An ecclesiastical law or code of laws established by a church council.
 2. A secular law, rule, or code of law.
 3.a. An established principle: the canons of polite society. b. A basis for
judgment; a standard or criterion.
 4. The books of the Bible officially accepted as Holy Scripture.
 5. The works of a writer that have been accepted as authentic: the entire
Sherlock Holmes canon.
 6. Canon. The part of the Mass beginning after the Preface and Sanctus and
ending just before the Lord's Prayer.
 7. The calendar of saints accepted by the Roman Catholic Church.
 8. Music. A composition or passage in which the same melody is repeated by
one or more voices, overlapping in time in the same or a related key. 
 
 [Middle English canoun, from Old English canon and from Old French, both from
Latin canÅn, rule, from Greek kanÅn, measuring rod, rule.]
 
 My "Synonym lookup" gets:
 
 Noun:   A principle governing the affairs of man within or among political
units.  law, rule, institute, regulation, ordinance, decree, prescription,
precept, edict.
 
 [finally recovering... <coughcough>]
 --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com  In Nomine Line Editor
 GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ 
  >>
thanks....for all that

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 00:49:03 EST
From: "Perry M. Lloyd" <lloydpe@earlham.edu>
Subject: Re: IN> In Nomine: Hindu Tradition

Earl Wajenberg <earlw@mc.com> writes:
>Perry M. Lloyd wrote:
>
>> Alright, is this a list for people to discuss only what is canon?  I don't
>> know, I don't figure SJG *would* be interested in a canon melding of
>> Hinduism into the game, but I also don't suspect they'll include Dark
>> Victory (hopefully in a series of "Alerternate Worlds", though!) or
>> In Nomine: Buddhism into the basic concepts of the game...  yet we
>> discuss them on this list.
>>              
>> If we come up with more on this In Nomine: Hinduism kick, I'll let ya
>> know.  If anyone has ideas to lend, feel free, I'll be listening.
>
>I *CERTAINLY* did not mean to stifle discussion of Hindu In Nomine on
>the list.  As you say, that limitation would have cost us the
>delights of Dark Victory and lots of other fun stuff.

It's all good.  :)  "the delights of Dark Victory"  <shudder>

>Just to prove it, let me make an unsolicited recommendation.  Instead
>of making Gabriel = Siva, make Michael = Siva and Gabriel = Agni.
>Agni is, if I recall, the Hindu god of fire (heck, his name is an
>old Indo-European word for "fire," clearly related to "ignus").
>Michael have the Word of War on the side of good is a lot like
>Siva being the regenerating destroyer.
>
>Earl
>
>(P.S.: Novalis = Parvati? )

Okay, here's the kicker.  As I understand it, Parvati is described as
the WIFE of Siva in the Mahabharata [ancient epic secular poem, part
of the foundation of Hinduism yadda yadda for those of you don't know].

Since Novalis is NOT on good terms with Mikael, I'm not so sure that
the Michael = Siva, Novalis - Parvati would be such a good idea (except
for those out there who REALLY like the idea of such a terrible marital
split...).

As you've pointed out, the Agni = Gabriel point holds water, so to speak.
Agni is desribed a both fire itself and the God of fire.  Although in
later texts Siva is described as a far greater God than Agni (IIRK) but
in the earlier text Agni is described as being "all Gods" (in the Rig 
Veda), but that's according to early texts...

BUT!  About Gabriel, here's something fun...

There is described the goddess, Durga, who came out of the body of 
Parvati.  From the forehead of Durga came Kali, "the Dark One"  Kali
is described as wearing a garland of skulls, a tiger skin, and a terrible
weapon.

Durga acts as a kind of counter-part to Siva, a female complement, if you
will.  Female energy, primal mother...  Seems to fit with the In Nomine
presentation of Gabriel as a chiefly female figure.

However, I have also been told that the Gods themselves each almost
represent merely an aspect of the greater Gods.  In this case, Kali and
Durga would merely be reflections or parts of Siva.

Pleh... comments welcome, pick this apart, I entreat you.

Jesse <jrooney@moose.uvm.edu>  writes:
>>Just to prove it, let me make an unsolicited recommendation.  Instead
>>of making Gabriel = Siva, make Michael = Siva and Gabriel = Agni.
>>Agni is, if I recall, the Hindu god of fire (heck, his name is an
>>old Indo-European word for "fire," clearly related to "ignus").
>>Michael have the Word of War on the side of good is a lot like
>>Siva being the regenerating destroyer.
>     
>Nah.  Michael does not destroy as much stuff as Siva and Gabriel do.
>Personally I think that Siva should be Belial, Gabriel or a new AA/DP.  I
>see Michael as much more the Indra type.  His Word is not really related to
>Indra's but they are both leaders.

I'm very wary about paralleling any of the Hindu Gods with Demons. 
Hinduism is not a dualistic religion, and *I* am not going to place any
of the Hindu celestial hierarchy on that side of the line.

[Jesse]
>The APG makes the case that God=Symphony=Everything.  If this is the case
>God would be good as the Brahman or god-head.

Hmmmm...  I've often wondered if Eli himself was God, or an Avatar.

>As I recall there is some sort of technology/crafts demi-god in Hindism.
>Jean would play a good role for that.

Crap... who is that???   <flip, flip, flip>
Anyone know?  

>Forgive me if my spelling or concepts are worng, it has been a while since
>I studied Hindism.

:)

 
"Hart, Joanna" <hart1j@nectech.co.uk> writes:
>---"Perry M. Lloyd" <lloydpe@earlham.edu> wrote:
<snip>
>> Alright, is this a list for people to discuss only what is canon?  I don't
>> know, I don't figure SJG *would* be interested in a canon melding of
>> Hinduism into the game, but I also don't suspect they'll include Dark
>> Victory (hopefully in a series of "Alerternate Worlds", though!) or
>> In Nomine: Buddhism into the basic concepts of the game...  yet we
>> discuss them on this list.
>
>Oh no, I'd love to hear what you can come up with on the Hinduism front. Its
>a culture I find fascinating, but the Hindus I know are lapsed and not all
>that interested ;) I'm sure other people do as well -- but I think the
>argument here was why there would never be an inclusion of that pantheon in
>canon.

I think you're right.  Oh, well.  :)  I will be gathering information
from my Hindu friends...                    

- -Perry

Perry M. Lloyd <lloydpe@earlham.edu>

Check out the PBEM In Nomine: Soldiers of Linn webpage!
<http://www.angelfire.com/llloyd>
<http://159.28.171.24/sol>

"And all the time the joke is that the word 'mine' in its fully possessive 
sense cannot be uttered by a human being about anything.  In the long run 
either Our Father or the Enemy will say 'mine' of each thing that exits, 
and specially of each man."
  -Screwtape (from The Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 01:09:44 EST
From: "Perry M. Lloyd" <lloydpe@earlham.edu>
Subject: Re: IN> Fallen

The courteous Jo Hart wrote:
>At 10:27 29/01/98 EST, you wrote:
>>
>>
>>As jo the netiquette demon, Kevin Walsh, Renegade Balseraph, Demon of
>>Off-Topic Trivia and an angel of etiquette argue over finer points of
>>etiquette on the net, Perry begins to sneak carefully out of the room... 
>>
>>-Perry
>>
>
>Brings a totally new meaning to the phrase 'civil war'

:: groan ::
     

- -Perry

Perry M. Lloyd <lloydpe@earlham.edu>

Check out the PBEM In Nomine: Soldiers of Linn webpage!
<http://www.angelfire.com/llloyd>
<http://159.28.171.24/sol>

"And all the time the joke is that the word 'mine' in its fully possessive 
sense cannot be uttered by a human being about anything.  In the long run 
either Our Father or the Enemy will say 'mine' of each thing that exits, 
and specially of each man."
  -Screwtape (from The Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis)

------------------------------

End of in_nomine-digest V1 #603
*******************************

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