From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Oct 1 22:20:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA12564 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 22:20:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id WAA28015 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 22:03:29 -0500 Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 22:03:29 -0500 Message-Id: <199810020303.WAA28015@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #961 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, October 1 1998 Volume 01 : Number 961 In this digest: IN> The Fifth Trumpet Re: IN> The Final Trumpet and Khalid Re: IN> The Final Trumpet and Khalid Re: IN> The Final Trumpet and Khalid Re: IN> adam and eve 2 Re: IN> Lilith's status ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 07:41:03 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> The Fifth Trumpet >>>I'm sorry, but I don't buy this reasoning. If Baal would really intend to back up this sort of threat, not only is he reducing Hell's power right before Armageddon, but I don't think that he could easily take out any Prince.<<< My example was off-the-cuff. It wouldn't necessarily be Baal saying directly "Vote with us or I'll personally kill you right now," but the combined pressure of all the militant Princes. Remember, they think Armageddon is nigh; at this point, they would be quite willing to draw a line in the sand and demand that everyone choose a side. Under these circumstances, Lilith, Andrealphus and any other reticient Princes would have good reason to believe that should they insist on obstructing the will of all their peers, they'd suffer for it. It might not be an immediate, direct attack, but if Baal feels he's been denied Judgment Day -- and worse, if the Archangels vote for war _first_, proving he was right! -- you can bet that either before or after the battle, he'll be settling scores, and so will all the others. Although not all of Hell's royalty may _want_ the final battle to come, they have all known since the beginning that there might come a time when it would...and that at that point, they wouldn't have the option of sitting on the fence or trying to stall. Really, do you think Lilith or Andrealphus or anyone else believes that they can forestall Armageddon, should it come, simply by refusing to vote for it? And yes, I believe Baal _could_ destroy Lilith or Andrealphus, and most of the other Princes, with relatively little effort. It would cost him a bit, but if he's pulling out all his reserves for the final battle, he's not worried about holding back anymore. All the Essence, all the nasty tricks, all the Ultimate Weapons and ultra-secret Songs that _only_ he knows, that he's been saving since the Fall are going to come out now. Also remember that several other Princes (certainly Belial, Saminga and Furfur) would probably be more than willing to assist in removing impediments. Faced with that kind of array, and that level of determination, refusing to vote with the militants would be tantamount to changing sides. They would certainly be treated as if they had. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 09:28:09 -0500 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> The Final Trumpet and Khalid Calabim@aol.com wrote: > (Mournful eyes like a puppy dog begging at the dinner table:) > > Perhaps you would be willing to submit a few writeups of counter-balancing > elements? I've enjoyed reading your posts, and at this point feel you would be > uniquely qualified to set things right. In any event I would be grateful to > see your idea of what an Islamic Archangel who holds to Islam should be. I have been considering doing that over the last couple of days. However, it will be some time before they are ready. Contrary to what I may have implied by shooting my mouth off like I have, I'm not an expert on Islam; I just have some friends who talk about it enough that I have a general idea of some of the elements. So, some time is going to have to be spent doing research before I get seriously started. And, as an opening disclaimer, what I produce might be biased a bit in its own way, as I have a preference for Shi'ism rather than the more followed Sunni Islam. It will work out fine as long as Khalid is in Iran, but the Saudis might not like him much. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 20:35:03 +0300 From: Yossi Gurvitz Subject: Re: IN> The Final Trumpet and Khalid At 18:14 29/09/98 , you wrote: But Khalid is the only significant character who espouses Islam presented >in the IN universe, then you end up with a very slanted view. There aren't even What about Gabriel? The book doesn't say so, but considering that she personally read the Koran to Mohammed (which is stated), I would assume she retains some interest in Islam. In her saner moments, that is. It's particularly striking set in Iran, where half of the government >does not share this apocalyptic view of the West and won an overwhelming >electoral mandate last year. That remains to be seen, I think. Note that the Iranian government has endorsed terrorism in the past - the Iran-Contras mess shows that strikingly. Yours, Yossi ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 18:16:47 -0500 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> The Final Trumpet and Khalid Yossi Gurvitz wrote: > What about Gabriel? The book doesn't say so, but considering that she > personally read the Koran to Mohammed (which is stated), I would assume she > retains some interest in Islam. In her saner moments, that is. Maybe, maybe not. She may also resent the fact that Islam was involved in the chain of events that led to her troubles. And everyone who's been involved with Islam seems to be on the verge of Falling.J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 21:28:19 -0500 From: "Phaelin" Subject: Re: IN> adam and eve 2 >Hi! > >I'm going to continue with my campaign thoughts as per my last post - I >hope this isn't boring anyone! (Don't answer that ;-)) > >I have decided to go with my last idea - that Adam did consume the >Forbidden Fruit, but overcome the state of mortality through creating an >Elixir. In fact THE Elixir; this of course gave rise to all the >traditional myths of the Holy Grail, fountain of youth etc. }snip of explanation that furthers this idea{ For a very interesting take on Adam and Eve, try reading the short story "Fruit of Knowledge" by C.L. Moore. The story presents the Creation and the Fall from a very unusual viewpoint: the main character is Lilith. It also puts forth a very interesting idea: that Adam and Eve were actually semi-divine themselves and lost that partial divinity when they tasted the Fruit. The key to the story is that they only *tasted* it, thus acquiring an imperfect knowledge of the universe and Good and Evil. Moore puts forth the idea that if each of them had completely consumed a single apple in its entirety they would have attained perfect knowledge and hence not become corrupted by sin. Just my 2 cents, Phaelin PS. The story is currently available as part of an anthology titled "The Fantasy Hall of Fame", edited by Robert Silverberg. P ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 08:01:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Jayson Howell Subject: Re: IN> Lilith's status Well, I'm back on the list, which means that I'm not dead. Hope no one worried. I'm looking over archived mail and I'm wondering why people feel such an inherent need to quantify Lilith. She's a superior, period. They're never *that* fully explained... But then, how many role players would we really have if no one quibbled about the stats? How's this, for those who need it: Lilith doesn't follow standard human conventions because she's just as detached from the Symphony as any celestial. We've established that the Symphony is kind of "God's plan for Man with a dash of free will." We also know that the Eden Experiment was designed as a test tube experiment of a miniature Symphony, which was tampered with. So, this particular lab ingredient, Lilith, managed to leak out into the world. She doesn't have to be treated as human at all. Neither do Adam or Eve. Perhaps they're closer to Angels than Humans, at least in terms of interaction with the Symphony... Just a thought... -Jayson - ---Nana Yaw Ofori wrote: > >My understanding is that she's still human, but not necessarily a > >*normal* one. She might just be a very powerful Saint-equivalent, > >except for the fact that she'd got a Word. > Or, as an alternate proposition; Lilith was the first victim of the "You, > too, can become a demon" scam from Night Music. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #961 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.