From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Oct 6 19:02:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA01719 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 19:02:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id SAA06581 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 18:10:34 -0500 Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 18:10:34 -0500 Message-Id: <199810062310.SAA06581@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #966 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, October 6 1998 Volume 01 : Number 966 In this digest: Re: IN> Hellacious stats Re: IN> everything ever! IN> [FICTION] Harvesting Forces Re: IN> Hellacious stats (& Dodge Monsters!) Re: IN> [FICTION] Harvesting Forces Re: IN> everything ever! Re: IN> the Desert Peach Re: IN> Vengence Unlimited Re: IN> [FICTION] Harvesting Forces Re: IN> [FICTION] Harvesting Forces Re: IN> [FICTION] Harvesting Forces Re: IN> [FICTION] Harvesting Forces Re: IN> [FICTION] Harvesting Forces Re: IN> Hellacious stats (& Dodge Monsters!) Re: IN> Vengence Unlimited Re: IN> [FICTION] Harvesting Forces Re: IN> Hellacious stats (& Dodge Monsters!) Re: IN> Hellacious stats (& Dodge Monsters!) IN> More Lilim craziness Re: IN> Vengence Unlimited Re: IN> [FICTION] Harvesting Forces Re: IN> More Lilim craziness Re: IN> Hellacious stats (& Dodge Monsters!) Re: IN> Hellacious stats (& Dodge Monsters!) Re: IN> More Lilim craziness Re: IN> More Lilim craziness Re: IN> Hellacious stats (& Dodge Monsters!) IN> More Delurking Re: IN> More Lilim craziness ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 06 Oct 98 12:17 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Hellacious stats >> This is so that Munchkin Fighters can still whip Munchkin Dodgers, I >> suspect. >> >Personally, I don't think it's necessary, on the grounds that dodging >isn't a contest, it merely reduces damage, and that this is offset by the >damage bonus for most weapons already. And even without the bonus, my >combat characters haven't suffered much difficulty in getting badly >wounded. Seeing a bonus to one type of roll annoys me, because it's >inconsistent. I'll agree on the inconsistency issue. Though I'll note that GURPS is also inconsistent in a similar way, for a similar reason -- dodge values tend to run about half attack values. Whether this seems necessary depends on what kinds of opponents you're fighting. Heavy combat characters can easily have 100+ hit points, a mere +3 or so Power for the weapon, and assuming equal attack and dodge CDs, means about 30 attacks worth of damage. When I ran the Feast of Blades adventure, the Big Bad Guy with Lots of Body Hits (TM) at the end gave the PCs in my game a fairly hard time, except that the Kyrio of Lightning possessed his underwear and started using the Song of Acid every round.... (This led to one of our Stupid Gaming Quotes: "He can't dodge his underwear.") >Also, I think in general that the amount of points given to starting >characters is too low, and should be upped by 50% at least, for any >character who has had significant life experience (100 years or so) in >Earth or Hell. I tend to agree with this -- I suspect it was again a simplicity issue, to keep characters down to a few Songs and skills, since it's hard to scrape up the points for more than a few at decent target numbers. This keeps IN character sheets from looking like GURPS ones (my GURPS characters tend to have 20-30 skills listed, usually). I'm not sure this was a good design choice, though. I don't recall what the APG and IPG suggest for older characters, but I may do something more than 4pts/Force in my own campaign, if we start new characters. > I don't think giving Discord is a solution, because I don't >see why I should have to make a character close to Falling in order to >give them basic competence. No, that doesn't make much sense. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Oct 98 12:24 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> everything ever! >Very tempted now to go on and do some more English stereotypes :) Please do. The English butler from Hell...? The nanny? The British Army colonel? Those are the most common ones we get here in the US, I think, except for people who watch British imports like Monty Python and/or the Avengers. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 13:02:53 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: IN> [FICTION] Harvesting Forces [This concept is the fault of Jo Hart and Maya (GR Cogman), who came up with a slightly different notion, which I have seachanged and brazenly swiped. Will any of this ever turn into canon? Maaaaaaybe. Maybe not.] Harvesting Forces ================= There was no moon as the figure slipped into the room. Starlight was enough, though, for the figure to weave her way deftly through the sleeping bodies of the family. Five thin children, no more than a year apart in age. The parents, faces worn and lined even in sleep. A grandparent over by the cooling hearth. And by the parents, a rough cradle. The figure slipped over to it, knelt to touch the sleeping baby. Yes, it was young enough. Her hand brushed down the child's body, searching for something it did not find, and then moved to the baby's face. Gently, carefully, she Freed the Forces within the mortal, and the child's body grew still. The family had one less mouth to feed, and one less girl to dower. Lilith stood and made her way out of the room, closing the door quietly behind her. A pitiful number of Forces, but it was easier to get them this way than to try to wrench them from the Symphony. And she needed more children, if she was to stay out of some other Prince's grasp when Lucifer's interest in her waned. Once, she'd believed he would never forsake her. Once, he had owed her much, for her aid in encouraging Tethers that would free the rebels from their Heaven-made prison. Once, he had made it a point to caress her hair when they were together. Now, however... She eased open another door, and the young wife within stirred in her sleep. Lilith hummed quietly, laying her will over the mortal, and the girl subsided. Her husband never even twitched. The Princess glided to the cradle there, too, and touched the babe as she had the one before. A little token was pinned to its wrappings, and Lilith raised it to catch the starlight. "Sennoi, Samangaluf, Sansanui," she muttered. She put it back in the wrappings. "Obviously you're a wanted child, even if you are a girl." She stood, leaving the baby sleeping quietly, and moved on. There were plenty of others who were unwanted, whose Forces could be Freed easily, and whose removal would free their parents of unwanted burdens. Besides, sometimes human prayers had actual impact, and Lilith did not particularly want to confront those who had created her for their own amusement. Not without more power, to defy them if they decided she was worth capturing, to summon help through the Geases. The next building had twins. The boy was guarded by a token, the girl was not. She touched the girl's face, then rose, leaving one child sleeping behind, the other more still than sleep. As Lilith headed for the next building, she counted the Forces she had acquired. _Another two or three, and I can create another one of my own. Good._ Still, she thought dark thoughts at the other Princes. If they were not so stingy with their own Forces, she would be able to build Daughters without all this tedious unbinding of mortal Forces as the raw materials. While she was at it, she added a few choice curses to the proud Princes of Heaven, who preached duty and obedience, and kept her own Word too weak for her to rip Forces out of nothingness as they did. The next room, the child was too old, his Forces too tightly bound to be worth the trouble of untangling and his personality formed enough that it might affect a Daughter who was built with them. The one after that, the boy was young enough, and unprotected. She stooped and laid her hand over his face. **** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 12:42:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Homayoun Saleh Subject: Re: IN> Hellacious stats (& Dodge Monsters!) On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, Kevin Walsh wrote: > On Mon, Oct 05, 1998 at 06:48:41PM -0400, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: [Snip] > > This is so that Munchkin Fighters can still whip Munchkin Dodgers, I > > suspect. > > > Personally, I don't think it's necessary, on the grounds that dodging > isn't a contest, it merely reduces damage, and that this is offset by the > damage bonus for most weapons already. And even without the bonus, my > combat characters haven't suffered much difficulty in getting badly > wounded. Seeing a bonus to one type of roll annoys me, because it's > inconsistent. I've noticed that in the system, a munchkin defender can pretty much avoid serious damage from a munchkin attacker. Consider the following two characters (just fighting skills/songs/basic equipment). Dodge Master Attack Monster Corp:5 Corp:6 STR:8 STR:12 AGI:12 AGI:12 PRE:12 Dodge/6 Acrobatics/6 CorpForm/6 LW: Sword/6 CorpHeal/6 AssaultRifles/6 Suit of Kevlar Talism: LW:Sword/6 (-2 to hit with Melee) Artifact: Pow 6 Sword (-4 to hit with F.Arms) Talism: Assault Rifles/6 (Prot:2) Weapon: M16 Assault Rifle Now assume that the Dodge Master burns 2 essence into a song of Corp Form at the start of the combat. (Prot:7). His "Damage Reduction" against Melee Attacks is now: DR = Kevlar + CorpForm + Check Digit of Dodge Roll (complem.by Acrob) = 2 + 7 + Dodge Roll (24-) (18- + 6 from Acrobatics) = 21 + 1d6 vs. Missile attack, Acrobatics is not relevant, therefore his DR becomes six less (i.e.) DR = 15 + 1d6 Now consider the worst the attacker can do. He can attack in Melee with a power six attack, or missile with a power 8 attack (full burst). Melee Roll = STR + FightingSkill + Talisman - Kevlar Penalty = 12 + 6 + 6 -2 = 22- Damage From Attack = Check Digit + Power Melee = 10+1d6 + 6 = 16 + 1D6 Hence, as you can see, the Melee Attack Damage is 16+1D6 and the Melee Damage Reduction is 21+1d6. Hence the HIGHEST melee damage (22) CANNOT damage the MINIMUM Damage reduction (22). Granted in this case, even adding corporeal forces to the attack roll would only bring it to an expectation of ONE point of damage (a damage of: 22+1d6 vs a dodge of 21+1d6). What about Missile Attacks... M16 Attack Roll: Pre + Ass.Rif Skill + Talisman - Kevlar Penalty = 12 + 6 + 6 - 4 = 20- M16 Damage = Check Digit + Pow = 8+1d6 + 8 = 16+1d6 Recall that the damage reduction vs. Missiles was 15+1d6. Hence our attack monster will do an expectation of *ONE* point of damage every time he fires the M16 at the defense monster. MERCYFUL GODS! On expectation, for the price of 2 essence, our dodge monster is invulnerable. Even an attack monster with relevant combat skill of 6 + a talisman/6 of that skill can inflict *ONE* expectation point of damage per attack... with a FULL M16 burst! Of course, the solution is to use some kind of magic against this critter (i.e. Corp. Charm or one of the Entropy Songs). But with 5 corp. forces, and 24 character points, you can create a character who is more or less immune to conventional "street" weapons... you probably want to use RPG's or LAW's against him.... Just thought I'd point out that there does exist a small imbalance in the system... it would help if corp form. didn't stack with normal armor, but that doesn't make much sense conceptually... (as Corp. Form toughens your skin and kevlar makes it harder for the bullet to GET to your skin). Cheers, Homayoun [snip] > Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 13:18:36 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> [FICTION] Harvesting Forces Oh, brrr! Is anyone else on this list the parent of a toddler or baby? Very evocative. This is the old, original Lilith, by the way. That's what she was famous for, before she was cast as Adam's first wife. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 13:52:29 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> everything ever! At 8:22 AM -0700 10/6/98, Martin Arnold wrote: >Um, what does a Shedite of Asmodeus do with his free 12 Cp's - he has no >role being a Shedite, can he spend them on somethng else, free servitor >attunement instead. (Or money back if not completely satisfied!) He doesn't have to corrupt his host, and gets the usual ability to spot members of his Band. That's pretty good right there. >Wil we have to ait for the next 'cycle' for the rest of the superiors - Maybe. This is under discussion. >PS OOh, anyone else here have ICQ? It'd be nice to have a little r/t >discourse on our fave game, eh! Subscribe to Pyramid (http://www.sjgames.com.pyramid) for $15 (American) a year! Get access to the MOO, arrange a time and room... (I don't do ICQ. Don't ask me to do it.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 13:03:39 -0500 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> the Desert Peach Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > > I'd agree with Mr. O'Duffy (except that I'd give him 6 Forces; there are just too > > many things he's good at) if he weren't so obviously a Mercurian. Hatred of > > violence; love of humanity; preoccupation with style ("It's peach-colored. Pink is > > tacky.") If Pfirsich isn't a Mercurian, he's met one and is trying to imitate him. > > He even takes Dissonance and faints when he shoots that poor Tommy. > > Well, I can imagine a human having those same traits. There are plenty of > people acting like stereotypical celestials here in the Real World(TM), > after all. But so very few people who act like Mercurians go on to become Wehrmacht colonels. Even with such a famous brother. This is a character who actually becomes _less_ implausible by making him a celestial. But I concede, I think of it this way because it amuses me. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 14:05:56 -0400 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: Re: IN> Vengence Unlimited >Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 19:56:10 -0700 >From: Gryph Clarke >Trying to catch up with the list after being gone for a week to have the >baby.... > >I did manage to catch both episodes of Vengence Unlimited, and I'd be >interested in hearing the opinion of the Lilim-lovers on the list. The >hero of the program seems very Lilim-esque to me, as does his manner of >business, and I'd love to hear if I was off-base or not, since I'm always >looking to brush up my Lilim. :) Oh, absolutely. Bright Lilim of Fire, I thought, during the first episode. Either one of those very, very rare Gabrielite Lilim who get to choose their own assignments, or Gabriel assigns him the cases off-screen. \|=) Wonder how many episodes will go by before someone decides to pay him the million dollars, instead? - -- Nana Yaw Ofori nofori@pop3.utoledo.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 13:05:50 -0500 (CDT) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: Re: IN> [FICTION] Harvesting Forces On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Oh, brrr! Is anyone else on this list the parent of a toddler > or baby? Very evocative. I'm not a parent, but I found it plenty chilling. Lilith in our game is not only gray but rather light gray, but there are hints that she's been darker in the past and is getting lighter nowadays. (Lilith was *very* *very* angry with the rest of Hell over WW2; the Allies weren't wonderful, but the Axis was solidly against Freedom, and the rest of Hell was solidly behind the Axis. Well, there was one exception: Nybbas was solidly behind the Axis until war was actually declared, whereupon he decided his people could make more propaganda if they were on both sides. Meanwhile, the forces of Heaven had different priorities about exactly *what* about the Axis to oppose, but they were completely united in opposing it.) > This is the old, original Lilith, by the way. That's what > she was famous for, before she was cast as Adam's first wife. Hr? I thought the two were connected; she was Adam's first wife and was killing his offspring because angels were killing a hundred of her offspring by demons a day. Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 14:25:11 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> [FICTION] Harvesting Forces I wrote: > This is the old, original Lilith, by the way. That's what > she was famous for, before she was cast as Adam's first wife. Elizabeth Bartley then wrote in response: > Hr? I thought the two were connected; she was Adam's first wife > and was killing his offspring because angels were killing a > hundred of her offspring by demons a day. Yes, that connection is made in the story of Lilith told in "The Alphabet of Ben Sira," which dates from the Middle Ages. I gather, from an article about this story by a rabbi, that this is the first mention of Lilith as Adam's first wife. Before that, she was still a demoness of crib-death, death in childbirth, and wet-dreams; the story supplies a history explaining how she came by that role. The rabbi's article is available at http://www.acs.ucalgary.ca/~elsegal/Shokel/950206_Lilith.html The tale from the "Alphabet" is available at: http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/humm/Topics/Lilith/alphabet.html Beth has followed it carefully in composing her short story. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 14:13:10 -0500 From: Uncle Wolf Subject: Re: IN> [FICTION] Harvesting Forces Well, ArchBeth, that is one way to creep us all out. Like another on the list, I don't have any children, and it made me shiver. Sidenote: How does/did this version of Lilith feel about either of the Slaughters of Infants, either Arthur's or Herod's? I could see her feasting on the Forces of the dying but not yet dead; but at the same time, I could see her getting _way_ po'ed about all the ones she couldn't reach in time, whose Forces were wasted. Health and happiness to all, tom, cadre Cherub of Heaven ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 15:42:58 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> [FICTION] Harvesting Forces At 2:13 PM -0500 10/6/98, Uncle Wolf wrote: >Well, ArchBeth, that is one way to creep us all out. Like another on the >list, I don't have any children, and it made me shiver. >Sidenote: How does/did this version of Lilith feel about either of the >Slaughters of Infants, either Arthur's or Herod's? Why waste Forces? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 15:29:08 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> [FICTION] Harvesting Forces I notice Lilith has to kill four or five babies to get enough Forces to make a Lilim. At nine forces per Lilim and five forces per human (even the minimum of three forces, if babies don't have the full set at birth), this implies a certain number of Forces aren't taken. I can't help hoping this means there is something left of each baby's soul that gets away. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 20:39:43 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Hellacious stats (& Dodge Monsters!) On Tue, Oct 06, 1998 at 12:42:34PM -0400, Homayoun Saleh wrote: > Dodge Master Attack Monster > > Corp:5 Corp:6 > STR:8 STR:12 > AGI:12 AGI:12 > PRE:12 > I don't generally see this as much of a problem, because in my view, people with stats like these are put in place by GMs on the grounds that they are there for the sole purpose of killing people. Most of my combat characters have a 3/3/3 spread of Forces, because it seems the most efficient way of making a combat character. Plus, they don't tend to have combat skills higher than 4 because they can't afford it. > > Of course, the solution is to use some kind of magic against this critter > (i.e. Corp. Charm or one of the Entropy Songs). But with 5 corp. forces, > and 24 character points, you can create a character who is more or less > immune to conventional "street" weapons... you probably want to use RPG's > or LAW's against him.... Of course, armour (IMO) and dodge don't affect the Calabite resonance. There is, alas, the matter of that 8 Strength, and the fact that they can run out of range easily. That's why I reckon the Songs of Harmony are a Calabite's best weapon. Failing that, use motor vehicles. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "We have been fortunate enough to live to a time when virtue, though it does not triumph, is nevertheless not always tormented by attack dogs." Alexander Solzhenitsyn, the Gulag Archipelago. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 12:40:08 -0700 From: "Kelly St.Clair" Subject: Re: IN> Vengence Unlimited >I did manage to catch both episodes of Vengence Unlimited, and I'd be >interested in hearing the opinion of the Lilim-lovers on the list. The >hero of the program seems very Lilim-esque to me, as does his manner of >business, and I'd love to hear if I was off-base or not, since I'm always >looking to brush up my Lilim. :) Also, I wonder if anyone here remembers an older show - "Stingray." Done by Don Bellisario back during the Magnum/Airwolf period (with Mike Post music and everything), it featured a mysterious man who drives around in the eponymous black Corvette Stingray. It was strongly implied that he was some sort of ex-special operative. His schtick was that he helped people, but always on a favor-for-a-favor basis... "and whatever it is, you must do it." We saw a few favors redeemed during the show's run; nothing too nasty, though one cop got wounded paying off his debt. When I happened to think about "Stingray" again after reading IN, the concept screamed male Bright Lilim to me (though with dark clothes, dark car, etc). If anyone else remembers the show, what do you think? - -------------- Kelly St.Clair kellys@efn.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 13:20:00 -0700 From: "Kelly St.Clair" Subject: Re: IN> [FICTION] Harvesting Forces "Well, Elizabeth, you've just creeped out the entire list. What are you gonna do now?" "I'm going to Disneyland..." (evil smile) - -------------- Kelly St.Clair kellys@efn.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 16:30:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Homayoun Saleh Subject: Re: IN> Hellacious stats (& Dodge Monsters!) [snip] > > I don't generally see this as much of a problem, because in my view, > people with stats like these are put in place by GMs on the grounds that > they are there for the sole purpose of killing people. Most of my combat > characters have a 3/3/3 spread of Forces, because it seems the most > efficient way of making a combat character. Plus, they don't tend to have > combat skills higher than 4 because they can't afford it. Really? In the campaign in which I play, players tend to specialize a little more. There were vert few players that choose the 3/3/3 breakdown, as the system doesn't lend itself well to jack of trading. A more common starting set was to have one 4, a 3, and a 2 (so you specialize a little). The three combat monsters in the party started off at 5/2/2, and we even had one 1/4/4... But back to combat monsterdom, with 5 corp forces, 12/8 is not unreasonable as a set of stats. If you spend the 18 points for CorpForm/6, LW:Sword/6, Dodge/6, you dont'need a v. high vessel (Lvl1 will do). So that's 21 points, and you have 15 left pver for other things... I guess it's a different style of play. The gamers I play with tend to specialize in their abilities... we have Corporeal combat monsters, Celestial combat monsters, and non-combat monsters. This is probably because of the autosuccesses rule... I'm surprised that's not more common since the system encourages it. As you know, because of the autosucesses rule, concentration of forces *REALLY* pays off. For example a Corp.Comb.Monster with 6 Corp. forces, can generally take down *MORE* than two 3 corp force opponents (i.e. 6 FORCES in 1 individual are MORE efficient than 6 forces in 2 individuals). The same applied to non-combat abilities... there is very little "expectation" gain from increasing your skill from 6- to 12- (i.e. you go from having a 1.75 expectation success to a 3.5 expectation success). However, going from 13- to 18- is a huge jump, as the second WORST roll you could possibly roll would still get you a LEVEL 7 success! > Failing that, use motor vehicles. Ahh...yes... a favorite tactic of a particularily creative Malakim of Eli in a campaign in which I play is to use a Large mack truck as a means of dealing with demons... I believe he once crashed a 18-Wheeler into a sedan (full of demons who were carrying a LAW rocket) at a relative speed of about 100mph... ;). Cheers, Homayoun ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Oct 98 17:36 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Hellacious stats (& Dodge Monsters!) > I've noticed that in the system, a munchkin defender can pretty >much avoid serious damage from a munchkin attacker. Consider the >following two characters (just fighting skills/songs/basic equipment). > > Dodge Master Attack Monster > > Corp:5 Corp:6 > STR:8 STR:12 > AGI:12 AGI:12 > PRE:12 > > Dodge/6 > Acrobatics/6 > CorpForm/6 LW: Sword/6 > CorpHeal/6 AssaultRifles/6 > > Suit of Kevlar Talism: LW:Sword/6 > (-2 to hit with Melee) Artifact: Pow 6 Sword > (-4 to hit with F.Arms) Talism: Assault Rifles/6 > (Prot:2) Weapon: M16 Assault Rifle > >Now assume that the Dodge Master burns 2 essence into a song of Corp Form >at the start of the combat. (Prot:7). His "Damage Reduction" against >Melee Attacks is now: If you're going to drag Songs in, might as well use Corporeal Shields and be done with it. Then the rest of the character doesn't matter at all -- he's simply invulnerable to corporeal attacks. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 14:39:34 -0700 From: alloni@ibsystems.com (Alloni Kramer) Subject: IN> More Lilim craziness Okay. Let's assume we have Joe Doe (JD) and Gina Lilim (GL). Let's assume they meet, and GL buys him lunch. a) Am I correct in assuming this would qualify as a Need 1? (If not, assume for the future examples some other slightly more difficult feat.) b) Does this mean that if she buys him lunch for a week, she can then tell him to kill his wife (with a reasonable chance of forcing him to do so)? c) Assuming that the whole world doesn't realize how The System works ("Wow, she just bought me lunch. She has a Geas-1 on me.") how would this feel to JB? An overwhelming aura of guilt and a feeling of being in debt? ("She bought me lunch for a week. I feel so grateful to her, I will kill my wife. Sure, I love my wife, but hey, free food is free food.") d) Can Geasa be paid off pre-emptively? ("She bought me lunch today. I'll buy her lunch tomorrow, and that should make us square.") If so, it would certainly make Lilim a trifle more manageable, and would mean that they would scramble to quickly build up a huge Geas-debt that JB couldn't pay off without GL telling him what to do (it's a trifle more difficult to figure out ways to pay off the emotional equivalent of saving your entire family than buying lunch). If not, does this mean that if GL and JB start buying each other lunch, swapping off, that GL still would have the immense emotional tie on JB at the end of the two weeks? - --The Mazing Looni, E.S.I.T. and co-savior __________________________________________________________________ Alloni Kramer alloni@ibsystems.com "The sky was blue. The sun was shining. All Nature seemed to call to her to come out and kill things." --P. G. Wodehouse ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Oct 98 17:38 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Vengence Unlimited >When I happened to think about "Stingray" again after reading IN, the >concept screamed male Bright Lilim to me (though with dark clothes, dark >car, etc). If anyone else remembers the show, what do you think? Yes, I had that thought as well. Might even have mentioned it here as a throwaway line once. If so, no one else picked it up. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 17:55:01 -0400 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> [FICTION] Harvesting Forces Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > I notice Lilith has to kill four or five babies to get enough > Forces to make a Lilim. At nine forces per Lilim and five > forces per human (even the minimum of three forces, if babies > don't have the full set at birth), this implies a certain > number of Forces aren't taken. I can't help hoping this means > there is something left of each baby's soul that gets away. I took that to be that most of the forces gathered were unsuitable and were cast out or simply dissolved. Then again, I really, really like Kult, so maybe I'm just a sick little puppy. ;) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)388-2665(COOL) MIB2300 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 18:09:42 EDT From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> More Lilim craziness In a message dated 10/6/98 9:45:17 PM, alloni@ibsystems.com writes: >Okay. Let's assume we have Joe Doe (JD) and Gina Lilim (GL). > >Let's assume they meet, and GL buys him lunch. > >a) Am I correct in assuming this would qualify as a Need 1? (If not, >assume for the future examples some other slightly more difficult feat.) > No. First, GL would have to sense the Need for lunch in JD. What need she senses can be controlled by the GM. >b) Does this mean that if she buys him lunch for a week, she can then >tell >him to kill his wife (with a reasonable chance of forcing him to do so)? > Again, no. She needs to sense the Need for lunch each time before the hook can go in. And this will only give her 7 Geas/1 hooks or (if she senses "I need someone to buy me lunch each day this week") a single Geas/3 (I think: It may be only a Geas/2). If she wants him to kill his wife, she needs to sense a level 6 Need (Something she will take a year's worth of effort to accomplish). >c) Assuming that the whole world doesn't realize how The System works >("Wow, she just bought me lunch. She has a Geas-1 on me.") how would this >feel to JB? An overwhelming aura of guilt and a feeling of being in debt? >("She bought me lunch for a week. I feel so grateful to her, I will kill >my wife. Sure, I love my wife, but hey, free food is free food.") > It would be about like that, given the Need fulfilled was high enough. >d) Can Geasa be paid off preemptively? ("She bought me lunch today. >I'll buy her lunch tomorrow, and that should make us square.") If so, >it >would certainly make Lilim a trifle more manageable, and would mean that >they would scramble to quickly build up a huge Geas-debt that JB couldn't >pay off without GL telling him what to do (it's a trifle more difficult >to >figure out ways to pay off the emotional equivalent of saving your entire >family than buying lunch). If not, does this mean that if GL and JB start >buying each other lunch, swapping off, that GL still would have the immense >emotional tie on JB at the end of the two weeks? > It doesn't work preemptively. See my above comments on the level of Needs for the balancing factor. In my campaign, and I believe in cannon, you can't stack Geasa. > >--The Mazing Looni, E.S.I.T. and co-savior > >__________________________________________________________________ >Alloni Kramer >alloni@ibsystems.com >"The sky was blue. The sun was shining. All Nature seemed to > call to her to come out and kill things." > --P. G. Wodehouse Mark D. Eddy (Mostly my two cent's worth...) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 18:22:51 -0400 From: "Guy M. Dumas" Subject: Re: IN> Hellacious stats (& Dodge Monsters!) This whole combat discussion makes me smile as half way through my first game, an experienced GM and player of mine looked at me mid way through the first combat and grinningly said,"You've got to be kidding right? Is it possible that you need to re-read the rules?" We chuckled together after the game saying that you could bury his character up to his neck in sand and give him the punt of a life time and he'd shake his head and say, "Didn't hurt!!!" I am now in the process of rewriting the entore combat system to incorporate such things as called shots (ie. hit locations) and more realistic damage for weapons. Any suggestions or rule modifications used by others would be greatly appreciated. Guy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 18:24:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Homayoun Saleh Subject: Re: IN> Hellacious stats (& Dodge Monsters!) [snip] > >Now assume that the Dodge Master burns 2 essence into a song of Corp Form > >at the start of the combat. (Prot:7). His "Damage Reduction" against > >Melee Attacks is now: > > If you're going to drag Songs in, might as well use Corporeal Shields > and be done with it. Then the rest of the character doesn't matter at > all -- he's simply invulnerable to corporeal attacks. > > > ---Walter Well, yes. Corporeal shields DOES make you invulnerable to all attacks. However, it has a VERY short duration (in the order of combat turns), whereas Corporeal Form lasts in the order of 10's of minutes, hence one casting is probably enough for an entire combat... Of course, if you have lots of essence in store, you can keep casting Corp Shields for the entire combat... Of Course, the real benefit of Corp.Form is that you can actually keep doing *physical* things while dodging...not least of which is fight back, or at least be an "action" sink for opposing fighters. Once you put up corp. shield, you are almost certainly going to be either hit by songs or ignored (not much else can be done against you) until your shields run out. Also, unless you yourself have relevant songs, you've taken yourself out of the battle for several rounds... (okay, you could act as a shield to protect someone). Finally, even if we do remove "magic" from the equation, the balance is still the same. The same combat monster WITHOUT the talismans: Assault Rifle/6 and/or LW:Sword/6 can't harm the "dodge monster" without corp. form.... so it's still an unbalanced issue, even before we bring in songs/talismans... Cheers. Homayoun ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Oct 98 18:34 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> More Lilim craziness >Okay. Let's assume we have Joe Doe (JD) and Gina Lilim (GL). > >Let's assume they meet, and GL buys him lunch. > >a) Am I correct in assuming this would qualify as a Need 1? (If not, >assume for the future examples some other slightly more difficult feat.) Not unless she looked into his eyes and saw that he Needed someone to buy him lunch. Or that he Needed to have lunch with *her*. Or something similar. Just doing favors for people without seeing Needs doesn't do anything. And for most people, I'd say this Need is too trivial for a Need/1. It might qualify if it was a starving man, or a street beggar -- someone who had no easy way to get food for themselves without substantial work. A Need/1 is equivalent to an hour's task for the recipient -- most people don't have to work for an hour to earn enough for a simple meal. >b) Does this mean that if she buys him lunch for a week, she can then tell >him to kill his wife (with a reasonable chance of forcing him to do so)? If she sees that Need every time. And if he doesn't instinctively blow all his Essence on his Will roll to negate the Geas attempt. >c) Assuming that the whole world doesn't realize how The System works >("Wow, she just bought me lunch. She has a Geas-1 on me.") how would this >feel to JB? An overwhelming aura of guilt and a feeling of being in debt? >("She bought me lunch for a week. I feel so grateful to her, I will kill >my wife. Sure, I love my wife, but hey, free food is free food.") It's somewhat stronger than that -- it's a true compulsion forced from outside. He might *feel* it as a compelling feeling of being indebted to her, but it wouldn't be a rational sort of thing. >d) Can Geasa be paid off pre-emptively? ("She bought me lunch today. >I'll buy her lunch tomorrow, and that should make us square.") That's a little tricky. Generally, if you give back what she gave you (and certainly if you refused it in the first place), you can probably get off the hook. This would likely qualify. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Oct 98 18:37 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> More Lilim craziness >>b) Does this mean that if she buys him lunch for a week, she can then >>tell >>him to kill his wife (with a reasonable chance of forcing him to do so)? >> >Again, no. She needs to sense the Need for lunch each time before the hook can >go in. And this will only give her 7 Geas/1 hooks or (if she senses "I need >someone to buy me lunch each day this week") a single Geas/3 (I think: It may >be only a Geas/2). If she wants him to kill his wife, she needs to sense a >level 6 Need (Something she will take a year's worth of effort to accomplish). No, canon actually says somewhere that Geas levels can be aggregated from separate Needs. That's rather nasty, and I wouldn't have done it that way myself, but that's what the rules say.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Oct 98 15:45:21 PDT From: Christopher Paul Subject: Re: IN> Hellacious stats (& Dodge Monsters!) Regarding dodge gods and combat monsters: I don't tend to have these problems in my game for two reasons: 1) As a GM, I always instruct players to "hold the cheese." Anyone who adds up cheese to get a dodge skill in the 20s is going to be asked, "Do you want to NEED a dodge skill in the 20s?" I won't approve cheaty skill adding talismans for characters with high skill, anyone wearing body armor gets arrested by the genre police, and I categorically rule out using acrobatics with dodge because it is unbalancing. 2) I use house rules for combat (see http://www.rpghaven.com/innomine/rules.htm#combat for the exact rules) which make attacks all or nothing (like resistances) and reduce differences between the very skilled and the moderatle skilled by reducing check digit bonuses for skill overages by half. These rules have worked quite well in games where the cheese is not too rank. I don't think the rules you use are going to matter if you play with munchkins. If you play with muchkins, you will get munched. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 15:57:33 -0700 From: "Kelly St.Clair" Subject: IN> More Delurking So, anyway... at work today, I happened to glance at the DILBERT calendar, which got me to wondering: Who IS the Demon of Stupidity? - -------------- Kelly St.Clair kellys@efn.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 19:34:09 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> More Lilim craziness At 2:39 PM -0700 10/6/98, Alloni Kramer wrote: >Okay. Let's assume we have Joe Doe (JD) and Gina Lilim (GL). >Let's assume they meet, and GL buys him lunch. >a) Am I correct in assuming this would qualify as a Need 1? (If not, >assume for the future examples some other slightly more difficult feat.) Note that Geas-levels are the difficulty of *the person whose Need it is* to fulfill it *himself*. So if it takes him an hour to come up with Lunch for himself, and she just gives it to him... (Note that the GM decides what Needs come up on a random roll, though a Lilim can search for a specific need, as per the Infernal Player's Guide, but she's going to be at a target-number penalty to do so, which the GM determines.) >b) Does this mean that if she buys him lunch for a week, she can then tell >him to kill his wife (with a reasonable chance of forcing him to do so)? If she reads the Need in him for lunch every day, or a week's worth, once. (She has to find the Need before she can fulfill it.) Technically, Geases are additive -- 6 lunches = Geas/6. The GM may easily choose to not allow this! >c) Assuming that the whole world doesn't realize how The System works >("Wow, she just bought me lunch. She has a Geas-1 on me.") how would this >feel to JB? An overwhelming aura of guilt and a feeling of being in debt? >("She bought me lunch for a week. I feel so grateful to her, I will kill >my wife. Sure, I love my wife, but hey, free food is free food.") I'd say there's an overwhelming feeling of guilt and debt, but possibly in *such* a matter, a feeling of compulsion. Here is a place where a human might well spend Essence unconsciously to make his Will roll. If it were something more innocent as a return request, then it wouldn't feel so compelled. Sort of, the Lilim says, "Dear. Kill your wife." And for a moment the guy is *considering* this as perfectly logical. Then he makes his Will roll and we all find out if he can refuse or not... >d) Can Geasa be paid off pre-emptively? Nope. However, you can refuse to accept her gift, which means the hook won't settle into your soul. (An immediate exchange of value might do it -- if a Lilim waitress senses a Need for someone to buy something, she probably doesn't get a hook for selling it, since she gets paid... Unless she sells it cheap... Up to the GM.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #966 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.