From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Oct 21 10:22:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA15075 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 10:22:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id JAA23237 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 09:54:19 -0500 Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 09:54:19 -0500 Message-Id: <199810211454.JAA23237@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #987 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, October 21 1998 Volume 01 : Number 987 In this digest: IN> Top Attorneys On Retainer IN> Papal Infallibility IN> Jews in In Nomine Re: IN> Jews in In Nomine Re: IN> Adventure Concepts Re: IN> Adventure Concepts Re: IN> Adventure Concepts RE: IN> Adventure Concepts RE: IN> Constructive Criticism RE: IN> Adventure Concepts IN> Papal Infallibility in IN ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 20 Oct 98 23:15:57 EST From: owner-in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Subject: IN> Top Attorneys On Retainer Top Attorneys On Retainer Question: Did you know you can have top notch, expensive attorneys on retainer for only pennies a day? 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Find out how, and our "SPECIAL LIMITED TIME FREE OFFER" at http://www.astorg.net/service1.html To Unsubscribe: Send email with the word Unsubscribe' in the subject to astorg@hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 01:22:19 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Papal Infallibility >>>These both of course bring up a good In Nomine question: If Papal Infallibility was invoked, how does it effect the angels?<<< There are a couple of ways to run that: (1) It's pretty well been established that any relationship between various religious dogmas and reality in In Nomine is more likely than not to be coincidental. So, as in the real world, whether or not the Pope really *is* infallible when he invokes Papal Infallibility is a matter of opinion, among angels as well as among mortals. (2) Perhaps Laurence or Dominic were working behind the scenes when the Vatican Council came up with that doctrine, and the Pope only invokes infallibility when he has in fact been personally advised by a Higher Power.... - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 01:22:12 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Jews in In Nomine >>>I doubt, over all, that many demons were involved in the fall of the Jews, so to speak, from favored children to the hated of Uriel and Lawrence.<<< Nowhere in In Nomine canon has it been indicated that Uriel or Laurence ever held any animosity for the Jews. They favor Christianity, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are anti-Jewish. They might believe the Jews "missed the boat," so to speak, but that doesn't mean they're enemies of Judaism. In fact it's highly unlikely they would be so. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 07:54:15 +0200 (CEST) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Jews in In Nomine On Wed, 21 Oct 1998, David Edelstein wrote: > >>>I doubt, over all, that many demons were involved in the fall of the > Jews, so to speak, from favored children to the hated of Uriel and > Lawrence.<<< > > Nowhere in In Nomine canon has it been indicated that Uriel or Laurence > ever held any animosity for the Jews. They favor Christianity, but that > doesn't necessarily mean they are anti-Jewish. They might believe the Jews > "missed the boat," so to speak, but that doesn't mean they're enemies of > Judaism. In fact it's highly unlikely they would be so. Furthermore, it doesn't say they believe in Christianity, just that they promote it. Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! May you have the knowledge of a sage, and the wisdom of a child. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 11:01:28 +0100 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> Adventure Concepts >>Slowed character advancement isn't necessarily a big problem. All that's >>needed is a system for rewarding what characters do in their everyday, >>non-adventuring lives. >I've done this in GURPS. I'm ambivalent about it as a game mechanism, >though. If characters have *too* much downtime, they can advance more >from that than from "on-stage" stuff. I think this is a non-issue in IN, where a starting celestial can have anything from 5-500 years service (or more, or less) under their belt and still begin on the same stats. Simply say that rewards from superiors only come by for exceptional service (ie. being played), or if the player wants the character to try and increase its mundane skills then give them the AM standard of 3cp per year to put into relevant skills. Hmm. That'd probably work for songs also if you'd established that a teacher was willing and available -- but basically celestials don't advance quickly (if at all) unless they are PCs, and that has to be an OOC consideration, never-mind how many IC justifications a player has for her PC to gain 12 points of skills in three months hard training :) I'd also cost the skills the AM way though (1cp for the first dot, 2cp for the 2nd dot, 3 cp for the third dot etc.) jo FWIW I really like the idea of troupe style play in IN, with experienced players. It would give people the chance to participate in high/low level politics and scheming as well as front line human-work and the small pllots that relievers or familiars might get. Be a nice change of pace as a GM also. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 11:39:13 +0100 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Adventure Concepts On Wed, Oct 21, 1998 at 11:01:28AM +0100, Hart, Joanna wrote: > >I've done this in GURPS. I'm ambivalent about it as a game mechanism, > >though. If characters have *too* much downtime, they can advance more > >from that than from "on-stage" stuff. > > I think this is a non-issue in IN, where a starting celestial can have > anything from 5-500 years service (or more, or less) under their belt and > still begin on the same stats. Personally, I don't like this feature of the rules. I don't see what's wrong with spending half a page or page of guidelines as to how to point-cost characters based on age and variety of experience. I still maintain that 36 points is only appropriate for a character who's come straight down from Heaven. 54 points for a 9-Force demon who'd spent about 200 years in training and lethal combat was not quite enough to fit character concept, but was close enough for me not to be too unhappy. In Shadowrun 3rd Ed, they combined a fixed pool of "active skills" with a pool of knowledge skills which varied with intelligence. It's a nice idea, and it's good for knowledge specification, where "Gang Identification" and "Gang Turf" are different knowledge skills. Simply say that rewards from superiors only > come by for exceptional service (ie. being played), or if the player wants > the character to try and increase its mundane skills then give them the AM > standard of 3cp per year to put into relevant skills. The AM experience system rules. Admittedly, I've only seen the 4th Ed one, and I gather there were substantial changes to the downtime experience gathering methods, but the core idea is something I'd always wanted to see anyway. People should advance more from off-stage activities, as a matter of basic credibility. In IN, this is offset by the ability of Superiors to hand out gifts Hmm. That'd probably > work for songs also if you'd established that a teacher was willing and > available -- but basically celestials don't advance quickly (if at all) > unless they are PCs, and that has to be an OOC consideration, It would certainly be useful for improving your Songs. never-mind how > many IC justifications a player has for her PC to gain 12 points of skills > in three months hard training :) > Of course an average period of three months contains 13 weeks, rather than 12. > I'd also cost the skills the AM way though (1cp for the first dot, 2cp for > the 2nd dot, 3 cp for the third dot etc.) > There should definitely be some pyramidal element. Level 6 skills should be very rare, the kind of things you see in characters 1000s of years old. > FWIW I really like the idea of troupe style play in IN, with experienced > players. It would give people the chance to participate in high/low level > politics and scheming as well as front line human-work and the small pllots > that relievers or familiars might get. Be a nice change of pace as a GM > also. The first IN campaign I played in had the idea of swapping between sides as the plot advanced, at least in theory. We haven't actually gotten around to playing the second adventure, where we're playing angels. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "We have been fortunate enough to live to a time when virtue, though it does not triumph, is nevertheless not always tormented by attack dogs." Alexander Solzhenitsyn, the Gulag Archipelago. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 12:17:18 +0100 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> Adventure Concepts >> I think this is a non-issue in IN, where a starting celestial can have >> anything from 5-500 years service (or more, or less) under their belt and >> still begin on the same stats. >Personally, I don't like this feature of the rules. I don't see what's >wrong with spending half a page or page of guidelines as to how to >point-cost characters based on age and variety of experience. To be honest, I can't decide. I rather like the notion that makes celestials very alien by saying that they don't necessarily learn from experience in the same way that humans do -- they aren't wired that way. An angel doesn't think; it just knows. Therefore it doesn't learn; it must be reprogrammed by its maker. But that's possibly unplayable so you're probably right ;) > People should advance more from off-stage activities, as a >matter of basic credibility. In IN, this is offset by the ability of >Superiors to hand out gifts Depends on the timeframe of your game, I think. In AM, the experience rules worked because it was quite feasible that you'd get through a season of 4 months in each gaming session. But this way you have to stop and think 'So how long _does_ it take to train fighting from level 2 to 3'? This is a problem with general xp in games anyway, where you can have the points to spend way before it would be IC for your character to have learned the new skill. If you're playing regularly and the IC-calendar is advancing slowly, then you're character will end up with huge inexplicable skill leaps in ways that just kill suspension of disbelief. Because that is such a general thing I don't really know the answer, beyond giving out less xp, being tight on when or how people are allowed to spend xp, allowing the IC timetable to slow down if everyone wants to spend time training... Although if a superior reaches down and tweaks your forces, that's a good explanation for sudden skill jumps :) I think you could easily run an AM-style IN game. Assign the PCs to a small city (ie. covenant), where they are probably the main angelic/ demonic contingent and possibly have been for a while, and divide the year up into thirds or quarters -- work out what your backplots and subplots are, and assume that life has been generally quiet for them, to the extent of probably no more than one or two calls for heavy celestial action per season. That seems reasonable to me, for a fairly realistic type of game. If I had the players, I'd consider trying it. Could just let them all play seneschals or something. It would mean that you'd probably discuss downtime activities at the beginning or end of each session, many of which would happen offscreen or in low-grain detail. jo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 23:17:08 +0100 From: Peter Witney Subject: RE: IN> Adventure Concepts - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BDFD01.264CBD80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable - -----Original Message----- From: Walter Milliken [SMTP:milliken@BBN.COM] Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 1998 8:54 PM To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Subject: Re: IN> Adventure Concepts I've done this in GURPS. I'm ambivalent about it as a game mechanism, = though. If characters have *too* much downtime, they can advance more = from that than from "on-stage" stuff. Maybe I just hand out too much during up-time, but I think characters = advance quickly enough as it is. I don't hand out anything during = downtime, except the odd language or culture skill if they've been = settling down in a new area. I justify this by saying that the periods = of world-shaking (or not so world-shaking) adventures are representative = of the characters' work the rest of the time, and their superiors are = rewarding them for all their achievements. I don't agree with the idea of players having multiple characters (they = won't 'bond' with them or they'll end up all sounding the same, but with = different stats), but if you do, I don't see the problem about slow = advancement. Hopefully, without the push to advance quickly, the players = will focus more on the 'here and now' of the adventure and less on the = "by the end of this session I should be able to...[insert advancement]" Peter Witney Balseraph of Kobal peter.witney@kobal.demon.co.uk To share with each other / Virtues - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BDFD01.264CBD80 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IhUNAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAyAEAAAEAAAAQAAAAAwAAMAMAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAATwAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAGluX25vbWluZS1sQGxp c3RzLmlvLmNvbQBTTVRQAGluX25vbWluZS1sQGxpc3RzLmlvLmNvbQAAHgACMAEAAAAFAAAAU01U UAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAABkAAABpbl9ub21pbmUtbEBsaXN0cy5pby5jb20AAAAAAwAVDAEAAAADAP4P BgAAAB4AATABAAAAGwAAACdpbl9ub21pbmUtbEBsaXN0cy5pby5jb20nAAACAQswAQAAAB4AAABT TVRQOklOX05PTUlORS1MQExJU1RTLklPLkNPTQAAAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgEAAAAeAPZfAQAAABkA 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fiction at the expense of gaming material, = since=20 >I spend more time reading IN books as works of fiction than actually=20 >running IN as a game. I'm sure most gamers that buy IN aren't like me,=20 >though.=20 One has to hope not -- a game that people only read, and don't really play, eventually dies from lack of audience. (Consider Paranoia.) Most people who want fiction will buy books, not gaming supplements -- and they're much cheaper. Of course, most gaming universes do not make particularly good fiction, and vice versa (though I will admit exceptions exist). I have bought and read all the books currently available, not = necessarily to GM (my last group has split up) but because it adds to = the IN background. The fiction is valuable in getting the feel of the = game and in many ways the adventures help too. I agree that many of them = seem to be irritatingly difficult to run without railroading. I ran Demon Prince of Rock 'n' Roll and had difficulty trying to focus = on a time frame and plot as characters (bless 'em) kept going after = their own objectives (and good for them-some good roleplaying, even if = it does make chaos for the GM). Looking at the fourth and fifth books of = the Revelations cycle, they appear to be even more tricky. Nevertheless, = (to repeat myself for emphasis) all the adventures contribute to a = greater understanding of the background, especially as they provide = specific examples in game terms. Whether you actually run the adventures or not, they provide invaluable = aid to the GM in the design and feel of his campaigns. Just a thought... 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I don't see what's = wrong with spending half a page or page of guidelines as to how to = point-cost characters based on age and variety of experience. I still = maintain that 36 points is only appropriate for a character who's come = straight down from Heaven. 54 points for a 9-Force demon who'd spent = about 200 years in training and lethal combat was not quite enough to = fit character concept, but was close enough for me not to be too = unhappy. Characters can't learn everything, even if they are around for = centuries. In fact, many of the skills would change over time (e.g. = technology and area knowledge) and I don't think superiors would give = favoured characters lots of spare time to keep up with their school = work. Just say that older characters have forgotten much in their = lifetimes and ended up with roughly 36pts to play with. . People should advance more from off-stage activities, as a matter of basic credibility.=20 In 'reality' most people spend their days doing boring repetitive tasks, = not gaining greater experience, which they may gain on a two week = holiday of, for example, Rome. 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------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 10:56:11 -0400 From: Stacy Stroud Subject: IN> Papal Infallibility in IN >>I was under the impression that it was made official in the 1st Vatican >> Council, back in the 19th Century. At any rate, it has hardly had a major >> impact. Even the issue of abortion, which is probably the least >> contentious aspect of Catholic doctrine that's well known, hasn't received >> the imprimatur of infallibility. >> It may not need the help. Infallibility would only be called upon to settle a dispute among Catholic Christians or to definitively "upgrade" the status of a popular folk belief to that of official Church teaching. The Church's opposition to abortion may be one of those things (like most of the others on the list you later provide) that's been around so long that it's presumed infallibly taught already. I know Cardinal Ratzinger tried that recently with the "no female priests" rule. The Pope made a statement saying that the all-male priesthood was a tradition descending from Jesus and his all-male apostles, and that the Church had no authority to overturn it. (That is, he declared the doctrine to be more in the category of "Thou shalt not steal" rather than in the category of "No meat on Friday" or "Priests can't marry," which are disciplinary rules of the Church that can be and have been changed freely.) John Paul stopped short of *explicitly* invoking infallibility, but a clarification issued by Ratzinger's office stated that the declaration was pretty much final nonetheless, since the Pope had disavowed any ability to change matters. Not everyone in the opposing camp has bought that. Guess it'll depend on whether a future Pope wants to challenge the declaration. Cardinal Ratzinger, by the way, is the head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the Vatican department that handles issues of doctrinal purity. That's its new name. It *used* to be called the Holy Inquisition. No kidding: same organization, new name. These days, of course, they rarely do anything more controversial than write sternly-worded letters to prominent Catholics who go about teaching heresy in the Church's name. > >Indeed, as a student of the Catholic faith for 12 years, Papal Infalibility >did come about during the first vatican council. Which is why the Cardinal's >council takes so long to determine who becomes pope. To my knowlage, Papal >Infallibility has only been invoked 2 times: Once to determine that Peter was >the first pope, the second time was to proclaim Mary was born without sin. I don't recall that first one. And actually, the second one is only an infallible proclamation retroactively. The Immaculate Conception (the doctrine that Mary was preserved from sin from the moment of her conception, NOT to be confused with the Virginal Conception of her already-sinless Son) was declared official Church teaching in 1854. Previously, it had been a very popular belief, but not a mandatory one. Papal infallibility didn't become official until 1870 at Vatican I. Before that, the Church as a whole was held to be infallible in teachings of faith and morals, but the Pope all by himself did not explicitly wield that power. The only proclamation I can think of that was *explicitly* made with the intention of fulfilling the criteria for an infallible pronouncement was in 1950, when the doctrine of Mary's Assumption was made official. Another popular folk belief, this is the teaching that Mary was taken bodily to Heaven either just before or just after she died. >These both of course bring up a good In Nomine question: If Papal >Infallibility was invoked, how does it effect the angels? > >More to the point, as an adventure: What if the angels were to discover that >someting papal infalibility invoked as an undeniable truth was actually false? Interesting. Would Laurence want the truth to be known? Guess it would depend on how important the falsehood was. >And on the reverse, what if Demons were supposed to create something or make >sure something is declared as Infallible? (eeek!) Eeek indeed. Of course, in the In Nomine universe, infallibility could also be something that unequivocally WORKS -- say, an attunement of Dominic's (or Laurence's, but Dominic fits the ability better) that is bestowed on each newly-crowned Pope? It'd be a slight variation on Dominic's attunement that allows one to know which of the parties in a dispute is in the right, coupled with a nasty version of the Seraph dissonance condition. (The main utility of infallibility is not to give the Pope more power, but to protect the Faith and the Faithful even if the Pope is a corrupt bastard; the idea is that God *will not allow* the Pontiff to lead the Church astray by using his powerful office to teach error as universal truth. That could lead to a slightly more forgiving variant on your first plot idea above: what if the Pope is *planning* to set a falsehood in stone, as a result of political pressure or whatever, and the PC angels are the ones assigned to *enforce* his infallibility?) Stacy Stroud sstroud@uky.campus.mci.net ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #987 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.