From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Sat Oct 24 15:58:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA15556 for ; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 15:58:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id PAA01398 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 15:42:33 -0500 Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 15:42:33 -0500 Message-Id: <199810242042.PAA01398@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #992 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Saturday, October 24 1998 Volume 01 : Number 992 In this digest: Re: IN> Skill Packages (was Adventure Concepts) Re: IN> GURPS In Nomine IN> Character creation Re: IN> GURPS In Nomine Re: IN> Skill Packages (was Adventure Concepts) IN> If Michael Fell.. Re: IN> Lucifer vs. Michael Re: IN> Prince of Fools Re: IN> GURPS In Nomine IN> more bloody london! Re: IN> Learning Songs ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 14:46:19 -0500 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> Skill Packages (was Adventure Concepts) Uncle Wolf wrote: > Here's a thought: have either Precision,Intelligence, or Etherial Forces > determine the maximum number of roles/ number of levels of roles one person may > have. The stumbling block for this is the limited number of Etherial Forces a > human may have, and hence their Precision and Intelligence. Maybe > Precision+Intelligence, giving even the most primitive human the potential for > at least 4 roles, such as Family person, professional, and 2 hobby-related > roles. > > Reasoning on this: these are the characteristics that would govern keeping your > stuff straight, and not acting like a Rowdy Pro Football Fan when you are > supposed to be acting as a Federal Judge. I think we're starting to make this too complicated. It's probably easier to just throw a few extra cps to the characters with the guidelines that they are to be used to buy languages/knowledges for their roles. With a little supervision to guard against munchkins, this would probably work better. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Oct 98 17:06 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> GURPS In Nomine >Okay, this may be really screwy, but I think you'd have a better >product if GURPS IN focused exclusively on the human POV and human PCs >in the war. The problem with this is that the GURPS conversion is intended specifically as a way to play IN with GURPS mechanics, and to introduce celestial characters into existing GURPS campaigns. There's no need to do a human-centric GURPS book -- GURPS players already mostly do humans. Adding the IN background to that wouldn't do much without introducing GURPS equivalents for the celestials. I'll also note that I suspect that power balance will shift somewhat in a GURPS IN campaign, since humans won't be anywhere near as incompetant as the basic IN rules make them. This should make them more attractive as characters there. After all, the GURPS rules focus on the heroic human level (Soldier-equivalent), rather than the power level of celestials, just as the IN rules focus on the celestial power level, to the detriment of humans. >I think you'll also find a freer hand in development, once you remove >the aspect of converting celestials, and focus on a segment of the IN >universe that's really not well fleshed out. Humans deserve more attention in In Nomine, I'll agree. But I don't think the GURPS conversion is the place to do it. I'd rather have a core IN book on humans. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 16:19:32 -0500 (CDT) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: IN> Character creation On Fri, 23 Oct 1998, Eeyore wrote: > I think we're starting to make this too complicated. It's probably > easier to just throw a few extra cps to the characters with the > guidelines that they are to be used to buy languages/knowledges for > their roles. With a little supervision to guard against munchkins, this > would probably work better. Hear, hear! Personally, I would add some CP to be spent on *useful* things as well. I think if I ran a game I'd tell people to spend 36 CP on useful skills or attunements, 18 CP on songs or attunements, and 18 CP on background skills such as artistry, knowledges, and languages. It ought to be able to create a generalist who isn't basically useless. Yes, I'd have to keep an eye out for munchkin characters, but I'd have to do that anyway. A Kyriotate of Destiny (gets memories and skills of host) is just more powerful than a Mercurian of Fire (must stop a human from hurting himself.) And that doesn't even cost any character points. Hr. I am getting *very* tempted to run an IN game, whether online (via mush or irc, not pbem) or in person. The system has its problems, but the setting is really cool and well, I'd like to try running a game again. Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 16:54:00 -0500 From: Eeyore Subject: Re: IN> GURPS In Nomine Walter Milliken wrote: > I'll also note that I suspect that power balance will shift somewhat in > a GURPS IN campaign, since humans won't be anywhere near as incompetant > as the basic IN rules make them. This should make them more attractive > as characters there. After all, the GURPS rules focus on the heroic > human level (Soldier-equivalent), rather than the power level of > celestials, just as the IN rules focus on the celestial power level, to > the detriment of humans. I'm not convinced that GURPS IN is going to work that well. My impression, gathered mostly from Supers, is that GURPS starts to break down as you move away from the heroic human level. Perhaps it works differently in, say, the World of Darkness adaptations. My impression is that IN might work better as a Hero adaptation, except that no one (most especially myself) has the time it would take to build all of the resonances and attunements from the powers list. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 01:19:45 +0100 From: Peter Witney Subject: Re: IN> Skill Packages (was Adventure Concepts) At 02:46 PM 10/23/98 -0500, J. Michael Neal wrote: >I think we're starting to make this too complicated. It's probably easier to just >throw a few extra cps to the characters with the guidelines that they are to be >used to buy languages/knowledges for their roles. With a little supervision to >guard against munchkins, this would probably work better. > I disagree. Given the nature of the d666 system and the comparatively few skills in IN, I believe that handing out extra cps would only lead to characters being far too skillful in far too many areas. I tend to think of IN skills not as 'skills that people have' but 'skills which are significantly over the average and therefore worthy of note'. Most people in life do things on the default; very few of us study advanced driving techniques, how to cook or how to sing. The idea of having roles with different sets of skills (losing the role's skill package when you switch vessels) is wonderful for a more humourous campaign. By Murphy's Law, you would always be in the wrong vessel for the occasion and the possible complications could spice up the game. There are two ways in which you could handle the points. In the first place, you could just assign skill levels with roles (as MarkDEddy suggested). This could lead to munchkin use of 'a role for every situation'; if not careful, it could lead to a body-swapping French farce (though if that's what you want it might be quite fun for a session or two). A more serious problem would be the penalty on characters who didn't have roles and, therefore, didn't share in the "free skill give-away". The other method, which I favour, is to have a lower point cost for skills only associated with roles. In other words, the celestial (and I am only thinking of celestials) would have 'meta-skills' which carried over all vessels and roles at normal point cost and sub-skills which only applied for the role, at say, half point cost. This would hopefully help maintain the balance between celestials with roles and the role-less. Needless to say, I haven't play-tested any of this, but I think it would lead to better rounded characters, as well as showing more clearly the division between what the celestial is per se and how the celestial acts in role. Peter Witney peter.witney@kobal.demon.co.uk To share with each other / Virtues ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 00:55:33 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> If Michael Fell.. >>>In my personal view if michael fell Baal would loose all interest in the war because the only reason he has anything to do with it is his competition with michael<<< Well, your personal view is incorrect, canonically. Baal's competition with Michael is a _large_ part of his interest in the War, but it's not all of it. There is also the fundamental core of pride, and resentment towards God for elevating humans above the angels. If Michael Fell, Baal would lose a lot of his motivation, but he'd still press for a final resolution to the War, so he could prove for once and for all that he was right. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 17:23:07 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: Re: IN> Lucifer vs. Michael On Fri, 23 Oct 1998, Perestroika wrote: > I'll refute this by citing Norse mythology. Ragnarok, there, is the > battle at the end of the world, and in said battle, pretty much everyone > dies. In fact, if I remember correctly, there are two humans out of all > the people in the world who survive - Lif and Lifthrasil, who've hidden > out in Yggdrasil, the World Tree. Actually, a few of the Gods survive aswell. Magni, Thors son becomes the new Thunder God. Also, Baldur is said to return from Hell. > There are also variants of Greek and Roman mythology which have the gods > falling at the end of time to the Titans and the humans, who then turn > on each other. I'd have to look them up, but I'm certain there are > several more in smaller modern religions. Could this return of the Titans be made into a In Nomine scenario? I keep getting these annoying associations to a certain Disney Movie, but nevertheless, I've always been fascinated with the Gods of the Marches.. Getting philosophical: Maybe this already has happened. We have turned our backs on the Gods and have to deal with the problems of Technology(Prometheus) and other Titans?....hmm :) Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Remember, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people." -Mr Garrison, South Park. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 14:57:42 -0600 (MDT) From: Chris Davies Subject: Re: IN> Prince of Fools On Fri, 23 Oct 1998 CaelinR@aol.com wrote: > He simply has what is arguably the most powerful word in existance: > Death. We stretch most superior's words to their utmost conceptual > ramifications (Lightning, Flowers), so why not apply the same concept to > Death: the inevitable end of everything. No matter what happens with the War, > or with men's souls, all things end. Take, for example his view of Kronos: > (paraphrased) "Everyone has the same fate. Me." "I am the anti-life, destroyer of gods, of dreams, of worlds. And what will you be then, oh shaper of dreams?" "I am hope." --Chronozon, and Dream, from Neil Gaiman's Sandman, paraphrased. All things end ... but some of them begin again. Chris Davies. (Not at all humble.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Oct 98 18:19 EDT From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> GURPS In Nomine >I'm not convinced that GURPS IN is going to work that well. My impression, >gathered mostly from Supers, is that GURPS starts to break down as you move >away from the heroic human level. I would agree with you, in general. Most particularly, the point-balance mechanisms break down, though -- not the basic mechanics. (Though those can also break down if you have absurd stats or skill levels.) However, most of the points in a celestial will go to the racial package, and to a Choir/Band attunement, which are all fixed costs. If there aren't huge numbers of points available beyond that, and humans don't get equivalent starting points to celestials (which matches IN better, anyway), then the problems shouldn't be too bad. There's already a GURPS IN conversion up on the IN web page, I've looked at it and it doesn't appear too awful. True, the result probably won't be point-balanced, and I suspect celestials should pick a Choir/Band and Superior for "free" before adding a fixed number of points (like 100) for skills and other attunements. I think something like that would work OK -- the only "problem" is that different characters won't have equal starting point costs. A really fanatical GURPS purist might find that annoying, but it's actually truer to In Nomine. > Perhaps it works differently in, say, >the World of Darkness adaptations. My impression is that IN might work >better as a Hero adaptation, except that no one (most especially myself) >has the time it would take to build all of the resonances and attunements >from the powers list. I don't think there's any hope it would work any better in Hero, at least as far as point-balance goes. I gave up on Hero before I became a GURPS player, because I became convinced that that approach to "balanced" starting characters just didn't work. And either GURPS or Hero will work about equally well simply as a descriptive system for powers and mechanics. (I'd argue GURPS will actually be better, but I've seen GURPS/Hero flame wars, and know this is strictly a matter of gaming religion....) - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 12:35:15 PDT From: "Martin Arnold" Subject: IN> more bloody london! Hiya! Here are some more thoughts for Londoneers, albeit roughly! ~g~ Trafalgar Square: Perhaps there's the odd Shedite of Factions here, ready to stir up trouble during rallies and demonstrations. In fact, Novalis has managed to convince her friend Jordi to allow her Kyriotates (and maybe those of Jordi who would live in the city) to occupy the pigeons in order to combat the problem. The Equestrian Statue of Charles 1 possesses a power of Kronos - the ability to divine wen a royal (or perhaps another important London dignitary) will die. St. Martin's-In-The-Fields: Below the souvenir market held here is a social care center. An angel of Protection helps out here and also with the Costermongers Harvest Festival (with it's good work for charity which it doesn't like to talk about! ~g~) and its Pearly Kings and Queens. The Ministry of Defence Building: This has many links to the Archive; as does Downing Street. the Cabinet war Rooms are no longer powered as a fully-fledged tether (even though they are still used by Michael) since it was discovered by Hell's forces; the rooms are connected to many government ministries. however if Michael's seneschal is present then one may ascend to Heaven as normal for a tether. Baals' seneschal has been under pressure to take the place for Hell. they want this place as a base of operations for Armageddon. Tate Gallery: Slowly being manipulated by servants of Kobal, who are getting away with more and more. they are able to keep their activities relatively quiet compared to the wheeling and dealings of the big boys in Westminster and the City. the Demon of Bad Art (FT) is responsible for the influx of modern art here, along with the infamous Turner Prize (hey, lets burn a million quid!). the Saatchi collection (located elsewhere, with 2 shows every year) is equally 'modern', this was the site for Damien Hirst's excellent and provocative work: Shark in Formaldehyde! yes really! Trocadero: Her you will find many Relievers of Lightning amongst the kids as they pump spare change into the video games. Hamleys: There is one particular servant of Christopher who has a special role here; he gets to be Santa Claus every year (and a few other jobs during the rest of the year). just as well he is who he is, because a human could never stand the pace, let alone a demon! Broadcasting House: Actually connected to The Archive as opposed to Perdition. it's cloisters inspired Orwell's vision of the Ministry of Truth in his book 1984. The Royal Institute of Builders and Architects: this is where you will find Salem, the Angel of Cities from FotM - when she's in London. Saville Row: A one time servant of Creation (in service to Trade), the Angel of Tailors, works here. he has a job trying to keep the place as busy as it once was. Selfridges: Home of the Bargain Basement and other tacky concepts created by an inspired demon of The Media! Harley Street: Among the private medical practitioners is a servant of Beleth who poses as a dentist. his collection of tools is particularly infernal! Wardour Street: Nybbas' influence in London hits ground zero here. This Soho Street is the home of the English advertising empire. the Groucho club nearby is a popular (members-only) hangout for his servants and their lackeys. Charing Cross Road: Her is one of Yves' favourite servants, the angel of Bookshops, in the heartland of such places. but maybe there's also the Demon of Feminist Literature (no doubt a Lilim in trade to Lilith!) who haunts the 'women's interest' shelves! she resides in Cecil Court. Covent garden: Due to it's popularity amongst buskers (who have to book in advance and get permission to perform here); all songs performed here with the blessing of the Angel of buskers (and possibly the Demon for infernals) are made at one level lower for invocation/gesture purposes, and with a bonus to the Check Digit depending on the audience size. Coram's Fields: Named after Captain Thomas Coram who worked with the children of London, this is an inner city playing field where adults may not enter unaccompanied! Bush House: Home of the BBC World Service. here an elderly, reactionary servant of Nybbas subverts the airwaves with subtle propaganda about the strength of the empire, often with fascistic overtones designed to appeal to disenfranchised Brits. Reuters and the Church of St. Brides: Reuters is the Press Association and the nearby church is known as the 'journalists and printers cathedral'. attempts to summon Nybbas here are made at +1. Church of St. Lawrence Jewry: The official church of the Corporation of London - the City in other words. attempts to summon Marc have a similar bonus. St. Mary-Le-Bow: Home of the famous Bow Bells; those born in earshot are considered true cockneys. one of Zadkiel's servants operates from here, she is dedicated to raising the standards of living in the East End of London. St. Stephen Walbrook: The home of the Samaritans, complete with a memorial in the form of their first helpline telephone. this rests on a pl9nth in the southeast corner. as a result this place is a fully-fledged tether to Protection. Marnie U can ICQ me on 19905332 if u like! "these days even the Devil is getting overturned and held up to the light like a glass of water" ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 15:32:25 -0500 From: "Mischa Krilov" Subject: Re: IN> Learning Songs At 09:35 PM 10/22/98 -0400, David Edelstein wrote: >The Liber Canticorum will introduce rules for doing this. (Basically, it >takes a certain number of weeks and then a roll to see if the student >successfully learned the Song.) A number of weeks? Eh. I probably can't convince anyone to release than information, other than my guarantee that I'm buying the book, sight unseen anyway. :) Is it based off of Perception/Intelligence, or what? >>>>Obviously, mortals couldn't use a non-Corporeal Song if this were >true,<<< > >Mortals _can't_ normally use non-Corporeal Songs. Whoops, I meant Soldiers. I understand there are new attuments for Soldiers to use Ethereal and Celestial Songs? One of my PCs will dance. Me. __________________________________________________________________ "Truth is beautiful, without doubt; but so are lies." -R. W. Emerson ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #992 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.