From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Wed Dec 2 11:57:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA32692 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 11:57:18 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id LAA02772 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 11:28:50 -0600 Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 11:28:50 -0600 Message-Id: <199812021728.LAA02772@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1032 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, December 2 1998 Volume 01 : Number 1032 In this digest: IN> Game Mechanics Re: IN> Insipring books and In Nom Time Travel IN> Edinburgh tethers? Re: IN> Edinburgh tethers? Re: IN> Game "coolness" meta-theory continues.... IN> Auld Reekie Re: IN> Laurence's Chin Re: IN> Game Mechanics IN> REVIEW: Rev V - Final Trumpet Re: IN> Laurence's Chin Re: Nybbas non-evil? (was Re: IN> Atheists in IN) Re: IN> Pandora's box Re: IN> Laurence's Chin Re: IN> Evil & Not-So-Evil Princes Re: IN> Evil & Not-So-Evil Princes Re: IN> Evil & Not-So-Evil Princes Re: IN> Laurence's Chin Re: Nybbas non-evil? (was Re: IN> Atheists in IN) IN> Interior Artwork Re: Nybbas non-evil? (was Re: IN> Atheists in IN) Re: IN> Evil & Not-So-Evil Princes IN> Re: IN- Pandora's box ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 13:17:49 +0100 (CET) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E5vard_R=F8nne_Faanes?= Subject: IN> Game Mechanics I really like the In Nomine Game mechanics. Has anyone tried using the system outside the In Nomine Setting? Haavard *** Haavard R. Faanes (hoc@nvg.ntnu.no) http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/~hoc "Remember, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people." -Mr Garrison, South Park. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 12:49:52 +0000 From: Julian Breen Subject: Re: IN> Insipring books and In Nom Time Travel Robert Knop writes: > >In Nomine Time Travel anybody? It might make an interesting adventure. Of >course, it opens huge cans of worms, but time travel always does that, and >GURPS Time Travel has lots of advice and ways of dealing with the cans of >worms. Which AA or DP would be behind it? (The obvious conflict would be >agents of Jean sent back in time to stop agents of Vapula from doing >horrible things after an infernal time machine was created in Vap's labs. A French friend of mine told me that this was one an original INS/MV scenario. Skinheads of David had (somehow) gone back to the time of Christ and were causing havoc, the least of which was leaving empty beer cans around on Calvary, etc. Sounds like Dark Humour might have a hand in it to me. Especially if you use Jo Hart's 'Punchline' attunement. - -- Julian jules@bigjules.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 13:07:31 +0000 From: Sam Kington Subject: IN> Edinburgh tethers? Hi, I rashly decided my campaign was going to Edinburgh (the capital of Scotland, not any fake Edinburghs you may know of), and I need ideas for Tethers in the city. Anyone more familiar with the city than I am? Sam - -- INWO Homebrew: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/inwo/ More of my stuff: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/ Not my employer's opinion, no snappy quote ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:32:43 +0100 (CET) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Edinburgh tethers? On Wed, 2 Dec 1998, Sam Kington wrote: > Hi, > > I rashly decided my campaign was going to Edinburgh (the capital of > Scotland, not any fake Edinburghs you may know of), and I need ideas for > Tethers in the city. Anyone more familiar with the city than I am? I've only been to Edinburgh twice, but I found it a very nice place. I'll definitely go back. There's the Children's Museum, or Toy Museum, or something like that, which could be a Tether to Christopher. According to the guide on the ghost tour we went on it was built on the site of a place where a lot of children were killed by the plague. I don't remember when it was, but apparently the Edinburghians had a rather brutal way of dealing with plague outbreaks - when a case was discovered the whole house was walled up with everyone inside for a month or so. A couple more notes from that ghost tour - I don't know how historically correct all of this is: there are a lot of rooms cut out from the rock under the city, and at least once there was a great fire when a lot of people died in there, since they didn't know what was happening... huge baking ovens, those places. Belial, perhaps? There was also a quite famous case of cannibalism, during the 17th, 18th century, perhaps? Anyway, there was this guy who had this thing for eating people, and somehow (don't ask me how) he hooked up with a woman with the same tastes. They made their little home in a cave nearby and kidnapped people whom they killed and ate. Apparently this went on for quite some time, since when they were discovered there were two more generations of inbred cannibals living there... I'm not sure which DP would get that cave. Saminga, perhaps? Or Beleth? Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! May you have the knowledge of a sage, and the wisdom of a child. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 08:36:32 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Game "coolness" meta-theory continues.... > :) The funny thing is, those are the two genres I've most seen IN compared > to. Me too that way, which struck me as really bizarre. In Nomine is basically a religous based SuperHeros - SuperVillians game with some serious overtones of horror. If you don't like either one, then why play it? I'm a little confused. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:17:51 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: IN> Auld Reekie (As it happens, my mother and half my family come from Edinburgh so I know it pretty well. The reason I know some of the history is that my grandparents were really into it.) Here are a few vague ideas: I'll only pick out some of the famous places, because you can probably do the generic ones yourself :) I think Edinburgh is a super setting for IN, mind. (I mention the Royal Mile a lot. There's a neat map of it at http://www.aboutscotland.com/edin/royal.html ) Greyfriars Bobby -- Tether to Jordi. One of the best loved features of the entire city, this is a small bronze statue of a West Highland terrier which is prominently located by the North Bridge. It was put up by a local Baroness to commemorate Bobby, a dog whose loyalty to his owner was so great that after the man died, the dog kept vigil over his grave for 14 years (until it died also), leaving only to pick up its daily bone from a local inn at 1pm every day. Bobby was quite famous in Victorian times and was eventually made a free citizen of Edinburgh so that he wouldn't be impinded because of having no owner. It's a famous Edinburgh story -- even Queen Victoria wrote a letter of condolences to the city after he died. The statue is cute, and has two drinking fountains: one at human height and one at street level, for dogs. Secret Corridor under the Grass Market - Tether to Saminga This is the secret corridor between the grass market (a little backstreet off the Royal Mile) and the Edinburgh Medical School which was used by the infamous Burke & Hare, also known as the bodysnatchers. They lured people into their house, killed them, and sold the bodies to a senior doctor in the medical school when they were still warm. (This was in the early 1800s). (NB. They were finally caught and prosecuted when one of them testified against the other -- the doctor went on to have a long and illustrious career) Heart of Midlothian -- Tether to Asmodeus If you walked past it now, all you would see is a small cobbled square on the Royal Mile, in which some of the cobbles are shaped like a heart. You might also see some people spit into the heart vehemently as they pass (a lot of people do this becasue its a custom, without knowing why it started :) ). The heart actually marks the site of the citys oldest prison -- it used to be the last stop before the scaffold for condemned prisoners. (Oh yeah, and some people say that the spitting is just a gesture of disgust for one of the local football teams ;) (Also called 'Heart of Midlothian') Edinburgh Castle -- Tether to Michael The castle is actually built on an extinct volcano. Probably became a tether when it was captured from the English by Robert the Bruce's grandson in a daring midnight raid -- leading some men up the steep and craggy side of the 'mountain' and over the parapet. It has a huge long history, is also the site of a really old chapel (Chapel of St Margart) and some war memorials, as well as some very old cannon -- the largest one is affectionately known as Old Meg. Every day, at 1pm sharp, a cannon is fired from the parapets of the castle (and simultaneously from Carlton Hill on the other side of Edinburgh). Unsurprisingly, this is known as the one o'clock gun and locals set their watches by it. The castle is also the site of the Edinburgh Tattoo, which is a big showy military display that gets put on every night for about a month a year. Fairly impressive stuff. I found a webpage for it at http://www.expressmedia.co.uk/edintattoo/ Fringe Club -- Tether to Kobal The Edinburgh festival completely takes over the city for about a month a year. Every building which has a hall large enough to accomodate at least 20 people gets turned into a temporary theatre, and when the troupes run out of indoor space, they set up marquees on the Meadows or just perform in the streets. During these two weeks, the entire city probably resonates quite strongly to creation. The Festival Fringe club, home of the fringe festival is where all the amateur and fringe performers are organised and allowed to hang out when they arent working. It has a bar. It has club rooms. It is also very very bitchy. I put it in as a tether to Kobal rather than Eli because *cough* have you seen some of the dross that gets put on as fringe comedy during the festival??? ;) After this, it depends how many tethers you want. The floral clock opposite Princes street might be a tether to flowers. Deacon Brodie's Tavern might be a tether to theft. The Scottish National Library might be a tether to destiny or fate. Jenners, on Princes Street, is apparently the oldest department store in the world so might be a tether to gluttony or trade. The memorial to Robert Louis Stevenson (a huge and unsightly Victorian thing which is very prominent and unmissable) might be a tether to creation if you are feeling charitable. Mary King's Close is an entire road which was walled off and built over after the plague in the 17th century -- you can actually take tours down there -- might be a tether to plague or death. I'm sure there are tons of others -- almost every second cobblestone on the Royal Mile has enough history to justify tether location :) jo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 09:24:08 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Laurence's Chin Jason Corley wrote: > Of COURSE he has an immense chin. You can't recognize him because > of it, though. Just think of it like Batman's chin in the animated > series. Everyone SHOULD recognize that only Bruce Wayne and Batman > have cinderblocks implanted in their head, but nobody does. Similarly, Superman can disguise himself as Clark Kent by changing clothes and putting on glasses, and superheroines have been known to disguise themselves, even from their near and dear, by changing hairstyles. It must be one of those perks they only tell you about at super-school. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 14:48:55 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Game Mechanics On Wed, Dec 02, 1998 at 01:17:49PM +0100, Håvard Rønne Faanes wrote: > I really like the In Nomine Game mechanics. Has anyone tried using the > system outside the In Nomine Setting? > This is definitely a case of mileages varying widely. I don't like the system much. It places too much emphasis on attributes rather than skills, has little relation between degree of success/failure and skill, and the probability of success is too obvious to players. And then there's such bugs as the widely varying hit point system, and Charisma as a feature of a Vessel rather than personality. I'm also of the opinion that the system and setting are too intertwined to make it worth the bother of seperating them. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "Warfare is the Tao of deception. Thus although capable, display incapability to them. When committed to employing your forces, feign inactivity. When [your objective] is nearby, make it appear as if distant; when far away, create the illusion of being nearby." -Sun Tzu, the Art of War. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 09:58:44 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: IN> REVIEW: Rev V - Final Trumpet I'm sure everyone is cringing at the thought that I'm actually going to review a Revelations Book. Several people have posted what they thought of the book in detail, and I thought, heck, I'd throw my hat into the ring. This book is basically in two distinct sections, split with a large map, so it's easiest to look at them one at a time. SUPERIORS: There's not much like reading the writeup of the expanded Superiors for War and the War right after I finished Trumbo's classic anti-war novel, JOHNNY GOT HIS GUN. It was very interesting getting hit with extreme pro-war, pro-violence after the last few chapters of that book. There's a collection of six superiors here: four expanded writeups and two new ones. And as for the expanded superior writeups, they are simply the best and the most interesting that have been put out by the In Nomine line to date. That's really all there is too it. When picking nits, I liked Baal more then Michael. I felt it gave a better insight into Baal's little brain and the way things work around him, which is something that I, as a GM really need and I, as a player, am very interested in knowing. He seemed to be just a little bit more of a living being then Michael. It's a bit like comparing the ripest apple to the ripest orange in the Supermarket, and my preference today happens to simply be for the orange. As for Kobal, I'm glad to see some of my stuff snuck into there. (Grin) And I'm glad to see that Mark writes and thinks exactly like I do - further proof that we are twins seperated at birth! It's solid, I wish there had been a bit more about Kobal's psychosis and cynicism, and some of his real base sickness, and I feel like it got cut for attunements and sample characters. It lacked the depth of psychology that the previous two contained somewhat. My only real complaint about Kobal is his main picture. I swear, somewhere, it should clearly state that tacky spiked codpieces are dissonant for Impudites. Ick. Bad picture, no donut. And then I read Malphas. I'll just come out and say it: the expanded Superior of Malphas is the single best piece of writing to appear in any In Nomine Sourcebook including the main book which has been published to date. In a small span of pages, Genevieve captured all the emptiness, the pain, the frustration, and the deperation of Hell better then anyone else has to yet, period. All I wanted to do was grab someone by the lapels, point them at this section, and scream, "LOOK! YOU CAN DO IT! JUST DO IT LIKE _THIS_!" That was it, right there. My only wish is that there was more of him [like a whole book - natch], more space, and some dedication to his treatment of religion. If there's a reason to buy this book, then it's for this. It's worth the $20. And after I read Malphas again, I looked through Khalid and Magog. Honestly, except for the FT adventure "stuff", I thought Magog was far more interesting then Khalid, and not for the nasty gross-out pictures. Although Khalid is solid, I would just never use him, he's simply not interesting enough. And there's a blip, and I know people have mentioned this: Khalid's +1 Rite should _not_ be a Santa Claus Hat. I suggest errata-ing it to "+1 Prayer Rug" or "+1 Prayer Mat". It really is totally inappropriate. Overall, this section is beyond excellent. It doesn't justify the Revelations Cycle, but if I could get more of this, I would be sticking around with the line for a while to come. Grade: A - Excellent ADVENTURE: And then past the map [why is there a map with hardly any cities, and some in the wrong place?] to the adventure. To be frank, after the Superiors, the adventure is a real let down. I didn't like Fall of the Malakim, I don't like this much better. What struck me in the face, and hard, is that the writing for the adventure is far sub-par to those of the expanded Superiors. It's solid, but it is so uninspired I have to wonder if the writers of the following sections cared about what they were writing at all. Even the little bits and pieces of fiction - a gripe I'll get to in a moment - were dull, flat, and simply lacking life. It read more like someone's Freshman college essay on why College Basketball is better then the NBA. And since I now know the dirty secret that IN can do better then this, it's unacceptable. Other then the previously mentioned plot holes, and there are huge ones, I'll mention a few things I really didn't like. * There is a box in the beginning of the section that talks about railroading characters. This box, I felt as a GM, was a real insult to my intelligence. DON'T put stuff like this in there. This is an adventure, not a how-to guide on GMing. And then the adventure goes ahead and scripts every single thing that happens for the rest of the game - with a few options, but it's still a hard railroad anyway. Talk about being a hypocrite. Just don't do this anymore. * There are bits of fiction scattered everywhere. As if I didn't already feel that this adventure was really someone else's little novelette which has been squeeked in under the licensing agreement as an adventure, here's something that has to go and prove it. And in fact, none of it is very good. I read all the little pieces, and I was wholy, entirely, unimpressed. If there has to be fiction, let's not have it read like bad fanfic, okay? If I feel I could write something better then that stoned out of my gourd on painkillers, then there is something wrong. * The adventure seems to start out so-so and it slowly slides into a section that could be considered "bad". It was okay in the beginning, but it felt like whoever conceived it had no idea where to take it as it marched toward the end. It's bad enough that it's scripted and railroaded, but it's in such a way that it doesn't really _go_ anywhere. Oh, sure, there's an Epic Kill The Foozle Battle at the end, but that really, honestly, doesn't do anything except demonstrate that the author not only cannot be bothered to read his Bible or any other Apocalypic pieces, but the vision doesn't go anywhere except to some sophmoric conclusion. I can only hope that other people who are running Armageddon have a different vision for the end. [Actually, I hope I have a different vision too... hrm.] * And now I'm going to settle in and complain about Ethereals. Please, please, PLEASE, if you do not know the mythology in which these come from, don't write them in. Okay? I felt the stuff about Thor was not only bad, it deviated from Norse Mythology so badly that it made Disney's adaptations of Hercules look good and correct. I didn't like it. Isn't it painfully obvious? Overall, I cannot in good faith recommend this adventure. It is not playable by any actual player characters, and without some severe repairs, it certainly wouldn't be any fun. Whoever wrote it should trying actually GMing In Nomine for a while, it would be a seriously educational experience. Overall: C- CONCLUSION Don't let the poor quality of the Final Trumpet adventure scare you away. Think of it as filler. Or maybe you can use those pages of the adventure to write Factions notes on! Yeah! You can, instead, write in the margins of those pages all the evil thoughts you got from reading the Superiors in the beginning of the book instead, so the adventure isn't a total waste. All the notes will be in the same place! How convenient! Or something. This book comes highly recommended as a buy for the first half. There is even a nice marker of a two page splash [which should have been used for other stuff... natch] to show you when to stop reading - or more of an "abandon hope all yea who enter here". So suck it up, buy the book, enjoy the writeups in the beginning while trying so hard to ignore that codpiece. It's worth it. Overall Grade: B - - Em Current Quote: The lunatic, on the other hand, doesn't concern himself at all with logic; he works by short circuits. For him, everything proves everything else. The lunatic is all idee fixe, and whatever he comes across confirms his lunacy. You can tell him by the liberties he takes with common sense, by his flashes of inspiration, and by the fact that sooner or later he brings up the Templars. _Foucault's Pendulum_, Umberto Eco ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 10:00:35 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Laurence's Chin > Similarly, Superman can disguise himself as Clark Kent by > changing clothes and putting on glasses, and superheroines > have been known to disguise themselves, even from their near > and dear, by changing hairstyles. It must be one of those > perks they only tell you about at super-school. > > Earl And now I'm left wondering if the Chin {now capitalized to bow before it's mightiness} was a gift from God when Laurence ascended to Archangelhood, or if it's something that he acquired while he was originally watching his Word grow. Or maybe even... gasp!... it's a Malakite thing. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 10:02:19 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: Nybbas non-evil? (was Re: IN> Atheists in IN) Greg Jensen wrote: > For individual angels and demons, however, I think there's even more > discretion, and I wouldn't be too surprised to find one or two angels > that seemed more evil than good, This is one little problem I see with the system. Greg gives the instance of a Malakite, who can't fall no matter how rotten he is. You can also imagine a seraph who is a total bastard, but, as long as it doesn't lie, doesn't collect any dissonance. Then, the only way it's going to fall is getting caught by its Archangel and made Outcast, if not destroyed for some reason. Even then, it hasn't *fallen*, just gotten closer. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 10:05:43 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Pandora's box There are a couple of reasons Hope may have been left in Pandora's box, both depressive. Hesiod, one of the earliest tellers of that tale, was a very bitter, pessimistic person, from what I gather, and may have had Hope stay in pandora's box either as a way of saying "We have all these ills and are denied hope" or, even more pessimistically, "We have all these ills, but at least we don't have the additional evil of illusory hope." Whee. Earl P.S.: There is the more convoluted symbolism of "We are assailed by all these ills from without, but we still retain hope," which is (1) not much like Hesiod, from what I gather, and (2) rather muddled imagery, but it is another possibility. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 10:17:37 -0500 From: Setzer Gabbiani Subject: Re: IN> Laurence's Chin At 09:24 12/2/98 -0500, you wrote: >Jason Corley wrote: > >> Of COURSE he has an immense chin. You can't recognize him because >> of it, though. Just think of it like Batman's chin in the animated >> series. Everyone SHOULD recognize that only Bruce Wayne and Batman >> have cinderblocks implanted in their head, but nobody does. > >Similarly, Superman can disguise himself as Clark Kent by >changing clothes and putting on glasses, and superheroines >have been known to disguise themselves, even from their near >and dear, by changing hairstyles. It must be one of those >perks they only tell you about at super-school. > >Earl > > to get all literary it is very similar to the devices shakespeare uses fr disguising people. someone suddenly uts on some different clothes and they are a different person. their own family doesn't recognize them. Ben ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 10:10:38 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Evil & Not-So-Evil Princes Greg Jensen wrote: > > Okay, it seems to me that Good and Evil need to be defined. To me > (and the definition I use for AD&D's alignment) is that Good means > placing intrinsic value on the rights and well-being of others. > Evil, then, means the opinion that valuing the rights and well-being > of others is actually wrong, and their rights are merely obstacles > to overcome in getting more power for yourself. That is pretty standard Judeo-Christian ethical theory, with a couple of tweaks. First, I would say the definition of Good should be simplified to valuing the well-being of others. The angels that do not seem to heed human rights much are then simply focused on other types of well-being, and would disagree with any assertion that having your rights is the essence of well-being. Second, I don't think Evil consists so much in regarding concern for other as "wrong," as if Evil were a competing and inverted ethical system. Rather, Evil is indifference to the well-being of others, concentrating solely on one's own. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 10:26:24 -0500 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: Re: IN> Evil & Not-So-Evil Princes > At 11:24 PM -0800 12/1/98, Greg Jensen wrote: [Snip] > > From the opening story in IN, it appears obvious to me that angels can and > do find loopholes to weasel around gaining dissonance, following the letter > of the law instead of the intent. For example, Nicole commanding her > servant to kill the betrayer. The intent was still the same (the death of > the human), just not the action. A Quibble here: The intent has to be "Nicole wanted to avoid Disturbance" rather than Dissonance, because shortly before she orders her Servant to kill the betrayer. she hurls the betrayer across the alley, a definite violent act. The story possibly hearkens to an earlier version of the rules, where Mercurians could beat people up, if not kill them... > So angels don't always seem to want to be > "good." I think the same holds true for demons. I'm sure many of them > wonder why they have to be such jerks all the time. Wouldn't they get more > people to their side if they emphasized the positive aspects of denying the > symphony? The thing is, most of the smart ones do. They emphasize all the keen things that doing Evil can do for you, and seduce humans to the Dark side. Far more satisfying to convince people to do evil of their own free will, than to hold a gun to their heads and force them. See Maplhas, Vapula, Nybbas, and Andrealphus for examples. > The problem is, Lucifer is running the show. Not only does God > not like Lucifer, but he is also completely Evil in any sense of the word. > He keeps his demons also evil by threats of force. This probably keeps the > demons from actually gaining any ground. By acting stereotypically evil, > it's difficult for them to accomplish as much as they could with more > variety. I'd have to disagree here. Lucifer is Evil, true, but he's not stereotypical cape-waving, tooth-gnashing, kitten-eating Evil. He's a very subtle, highly-manipulative Evil. He's Brilliant Evil. He's very, very good at making people see his point of view. How else does one convince fully a third of the Angels to rebel against God? Not through threats of violence, (Definately not, if Heaven & Hell's Pax Dei was in effect back then) but through calm, rational-sounding persuasiveness. People who think your arguments make sense are far more loyal than people who think you're going to beat them up if you don't go along with them, and the other side had an Omnipotent Diety on their side, who could easily beat the crap out of the rebels. Lucifer managed to convince one-third of the Angels to rebel against an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent entity, and convinced them that they could /win/. If that's not Charisma, I don't know what is. > I'm also sure that many angels have wondered why Heaven hasn't > just invaded Hell and finished off all the demons once and for all. Well, one reason might be that the Demons currently outnumber the Angels two-to-one... > Just > what is God up to, anyway? Here's a thought: what if Lucifer isn't as > distant from God as everybody thinks. Lucifer's commands of evil may be a > part of God's plan to keep the demons from gaining any ground. Maybe > Lucifer still takes his orders from the head honcho. > > Greg Jensen > http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~gjensen/gregpage.htm > > ===== ><{{"> =================================================== <"}}>< ====== Nana-Yaw "The Fish" Ofori, Freelance Soldier of Heck, presenty serving Santos, Habbalite Knight of Death, the Demon of Evolution in Action. nofori@pop3.utoledo.edu | Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh maltesh@usa.net | In Nomine: http://members.tripod.com/~maltesh/T317 ===== ><{{"> ============ "Life's a Fish, then you Fry." ======= <"}}>< ====== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 16:07:57 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> Evil & Not-So-Evil Princes >Far more satisfying to convince people to do evil of their own free will, >than to hold a gun to their heads and force them. See Maplhas, Vapula, >Nybbas, and Andrealphus for examples. It's also much less work :) I know that I often find the ideas that most disturb me are cases in which a demon (or some other force) takes some aspect of human nature that SHOULD be good and twists it to an evil end. That really gets to me, much more than boring ickiness for its own sake. Examples? OK, off the top of my head... The love of a mother for her children is a good thing. It can get twisted if a demon convinces some woman that children are innocents who all deserve a place in heaven before they have a chance to become corrupt, so she goes on a killing spree in a maternity ward. It can get twisted if a demon convinces a woman that if her child is allowed to go out and play, it will catch something nasty -- so it is locked in an attic or a cellar for years where it can be better looked after. It can get twisted if a demon plays hard on the instincts of some woman who can't have children so that she goes out and steals other people's babies. It can get twisted if the demon nudges the mother of criminials to protect and support them, even to the extent of hiding murders and cannibalism. And (of course), it can get twisted into incest and child abuse... All of these things are MUCH nastier if they build on a base of something which was intended to be a good and transfiguring force for humanity. Demons aren't bad because they are just evil (straight evil is very uncomplex), they are bad because they are TWISTED. All IMO :) jo (Aspiring to be the demon of work avoidance) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 08:20:57 -0800 From: "B.H." Subject: Re: IN> Laurence's Chin Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > Jason Corley wrote: > > > Of COURSE he has an immense chin. You can't recognize him because > > of it, though. Just think of it like Batman's chin in the animated > > series. Everyone SHOULD recognize that only Bruce Wayne and Batman > > have cinderblocks implanted in their head, but nobody does. > > Similarly, Superman can disguise himself as Clark Kent by > changing clothes and putting on glasses, and superheroines > have been known to disguise themselves, even from their near > and dear, by changing hairstyles. It must be one of those > perks they only tell you about at super-school. > > Earl Also they change their clothing. They have too- I mean, come on, in the costumes they wear and the way they're drawn, do you think anyone is looking at their hair? - -- Brian A.H. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 16:15:45 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: Nybbas non-evil? (was Re: IN> Atheists in IN) On Wed, Dec 02, 1998 at 10:02:19AM -0500, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > This is one little problem I see with the system. Greg gives > the instance of a Malakite, who can't fall no matter how rotten > he is. You can also imagine a seraph who is a total bastard, but, > as long as it doesn't lie, doesn't collect any dissonance. Then, > the only way it's going to fall is getting caught by its Archangel > and made Outcast, if not destroyed for some reason. Even then, > it hasn't *fallen*, just gotten closer. > In my opinion, this is part of the reason why Judgement is necessary. This is the sort of heresy they're there to catch. The dissonance requirements catch nasty angels of all but two Choirs, Seraphim and Mercurians. All the others have restrictions forcing them into generally behaving morally (as opposed to avoiding specific forms of immorality). The only way around this is to get the player to think "If I know the truth, and don't act on it, what kind of Seraph am I?", or the equivalent for Mercurians. If a Seraph really doesn't care about the Truth, or a Mercurian really doesn't care about humans, then why shouldn't they commit dissonant acts? Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "Warfare is the Tao of deception. Thus although capable, display incapability to them. When committed to employing your forces, feign inactivity. When [your objective] is nearby, make it appear as if distant; when far away, create the illusion of being nearby." -Sun Tzu, the Art of War. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 10:30:09 -0600 From: Eeyore Subject: IN> Interior Artwork As long as we're on the subject of things we'd like to see changed about IN product, might I suggest that Dan Smith's art be de-emphasized if not gotten rid of? His stuff isn't bad; there are a number of products in which I'd like it. But his style is very cartoony, and it clashes with the mood the books seem to aiming for. IN calls for more subtle art, both in the drawing style and the subject of the drawing. In FT, the two most effective pieces were the portrait of Dark Khalid and the one of Baal tasting the blood on his sword. Both were not only good, but they reinforced the atmosphere of the section of which they were a part, perhaps even adding a few touches to the written work. Mr. Smith's art, unfortunately, does not do either for this particular game. J. Michael Neal ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 08:36:21 -0800 From: "B.H." Subject: Re: Nybbas non-evil? (was Re: IN> Atheists in IN) Earl Wajenberg wrote: > > Greg Jensen wrote: > > > For individual angels and demons, however, I think there's even more > > discretion, and I wouldn't be too surprised to find one or two angels > > that seemed more evil than good, > > This is one little problem I see with the system. Greg gives > the instance of a Malakite, who can't fall no matter how rotten > he is. You can also imagine a seraph who is a total bastard, but, > as long as it doesn't lie, doesn't collect any dissonance. Then, > the only way it's going to fall is getting caught by its Archangel > and made Outcast, if not destroyed for some reason. Even then, > it hasn't *fallen*, just gotten closer. > > Earl There are also the dissonance requirements of the superiors, of course. And furthermore, although it's not specified in the rules, I read between the lines on cases like this. An Angel accepts that he is part of the symphony. Rebelling against God's will, for example, is always Dissonant to me. There isn't a corresponding dissonance for Demons because rebellion is what they're supposed to do. Acting selfish, self-centered, or otherwise demonically is Dissonant in my campaign for an Angel, just as acting selfless,doing good for others without thought of recompense, and that sort of thing are Dissonant for a Demon. Note that I my 'extra' dissonance conditions, except for the Will of God thing, are *not* automatic one-per-act. Instead, I judge at the end of each adventure, or, for an NPC, whenever I want to, if the characters have been acting either angelic or demonic in general. If, for example, they've had to do things that would seem to us to be against their natures but actually weren't, I don't penalize them. But if they have been acting contrary to their natures, I will give them a point of dissonance. On the other hand, I have no 'opposite' condition for Demons who act real demoniacal- they're all individualists, and if they don't precisely act according to their nature they're in trouble, because the Symphony can be a Siren's song... However, if I see the angels acting like angels should- Dominicans (I still love calling them that) using Judgement and not being Judgemental... Davidians (oooh, thankfully they work with stone and not trees- Branch Davidians...) who protect and 'forge' people without going over the line into streetgang viciousness, Gabrielites who manage to cature the Essence of the Flame without becoming Punisher (the comic book) types, that sort of thing, I will remove one point of dissonance elsewhere. And for either side, acting more like they 'should' be never causes dissonance- but that's my judgement call, not the player's. - -- Brian A.H. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 11:42:06 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Evil & Not-So-Evil Princes Hart, Joanna wrote: > All of these things are MUCH nastier if they build on a base of > something which was intended to be a good and transfiguring force > for humanity. Demons aren't bad because they are just evil > (straight evil is very uncomplex), they are bad because they are > TWISTED. All of which tallies nicely with the opinion of St. Augustine, one of the Church's first major philosophers, who held that evil has no existence in and of itself, is not a positive quality of its own, but is always and only the perversion of something good. E.g., there's nothing wrong with loving yourself -- it's just wrong to love yourself first and only. Thus, in C. S. Lewis's Space Trilogy, the angels from other planets have no word in their language for evil, and so use "bent" to describe evil spirits, mortals, and acts. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 12:22:59 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Pandora's box >Setzer Gabbiani wrote: > >> This could be interesting in in nomine as a possible issue of destiny. >> Perhaps an elohite serving Yves who killed peoples hopes so they could move >> on. Odd issue > >Maybe a Demon of Daydreams - almost certainly Beleth or Kronos, though >I'm not certain which yet, and I'm uncertain as to the Band - who >fostered hopes and dreams in the knowledge that the more time someone >spends thinking about their Destiny, the less time they have to achieve >it. Probably a standby demon, one who is brought in when other methods >fail, and almost definitely working in league with someone whose job it >is to use the victim's hopes to guide him to his Fate. > >"I had such high hopes, such dreams - and now they're shattered. What's >the point now?" > >> Ben, Cherub of destiny and happy friend of Perry > >EDG, Mercurian of Jean, roommate of Ben and unhappy friend of Perry Perry, Kyriotate of Flowers serving Creation and sometimes Tanniel, Archangel of Tea, happy AND unhappy. Multiplicity, baby. :) Okay, on the side of Hell, what about a Pacadite or Impudite? Ben, EDG, I know you probably haven't heard of the Pacadim, they're a minor Band under Nightmares. IIRC, they operate like... well, they *destroy* people's hopes, self-esteem, and feelings of self-worth. Unlike the Impudites, they're not nice, they're just assholes. Can't remember their Resonance at the moment, but... wait... Isn't it like, heightening a person's fears or something like that. We can look at The Marches tonight before the session. :l On, the side of Heaven, I can definitely see an Elohite fighting to remove a person's hopes so that they can move on with their lives. I was thinking about a malakite, but... It's Elohite I think. Of course, there's also the Meninium (sp?), but they are *called* the Hopes, I think, or something like that. The idea of Hope being use for evil is interesting, using Hope (or more likely false Hope) to further the cause of selfishness... Helping to feed a person's false hopes so that they'll become even more depressed and more self-absorbed as this hopes fail to become realized, perhaps even leading to the person's suicide, an intimately selfish act, scoring a point for hell... Ick, how evil... turning the weapons of Heaven against Heaven itself. [Earl] >There are a couple of reasons Hope may have been left in >Pandora's box, both depressive. Hesiod, one of the earliest >tellers of that tale, was a very bitter, pessimistic person, >from what I gather, and may have had Hope stay in pandora's >box either as a way of saying "We have all these ills and >are denied hope" or, even more pessimistically, "We have all >these ills, but at least we don't have the additional evil >of illusory hope." Whee. > >Earl > >P.S.: There is the more convoluted symbolism of "We are assailed >by all these ills from without, but we still retain hope," which >is (1) not much like Hesiod, from what I gather, and (2) rather >muddled imagery, but it is another possibility. At least we don't have illusory hope... wow... One of the interesting tidbits I've picked up from Psychology is that the people who are considered to be psychologically "Healthy" (meaning capable of living a long time, are happy, and can function as individuals, accomplishing goals, living happy lives, and have a higher self-esteem) DO NOT see reality necessarily as it is, they see more of the beauty than of the ugliness, more of its potential than of its short- comings. Usually those who see reality more "realistically" have lower self-esteem and concepts of self-worth, which also translates into acocomplishing less, being less happy, and not living as long. What should you do (assuming you want to be happy, live long, and be accomplished)? You should be "optimistic", which although may very be the creation of an illusion, because we as creatures of free will (AFAIK), or at least being capable of creating change, we can make the illusion, the dream, a reality. It may not be true now, but we can MAKE it true. Example: I have a vision of an incredible gaming session. Au moment, it is not real. Will it be real? Only if I work to make it real, which requires that I put effort into it which I won't do if I believe it's doomed for failure. That's why I have Hope, that's why Blandine's Meninium are so important. Using Hope, a weapon/tool of Destiny/Heaven against Heaven: Quite simply, encourage others to hope for things that will most liklely NOT HAPPEN. Then, after they have failure after failure, they slip more and more into being bitter, unhappy, needlessly critical, pessimistic, negative, and best of all, SELFISH. As the body becomes sick, the self become more self-focused, the same is true of the soul. Make soul sick, hate itself for its shortcomings, and one more lonely soul will sail on into Hell once its time on Earth is up. :) - -Perry, KFC Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "Remember, false hope is still hope." -Dilbert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1032 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.