From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Dec 3 15:04:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA01612 for ; Thu, 3 Dec 1998 15:04:02 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id OAA00602 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 3 Dec 1998 14:42:18 -0600 Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 14:42:18 -0600 Message-Id: <199812032042.OAA00602@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1034 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, December 3 1998 Volume 01 : Number 1034 In this digest: Re: Defending Dominic (Re: IN> Enforced Morality in Choirs) Re: Defending Dominic (Re: IN> Enforced Morality in Choirs) Re: IN> Arcangeles - an SF setting for IN Re: Defending Dominic (Re: IN> Enforced Morality in Choirs) IN> Santa Claus Re: IN> Enforced Morality in Choirs Re: Defending Dominic (Re: IN> Enforced Morality in Choirs) IN> Re: Defending Dominic Re: IN> Arcangeles - an SF setting for IN Re: IN> Arcangeles - an SF setting for IN IN> Dan Smith Art Re: IN> Santa Claus Re: IN> Re: Defending Dominic IN> Santa Claus (from the Archives) IN> One poor benighted demon... Re: IN> Enforced Morality in Choirs Re: IN> Game "coolness" meta-theory continues.... Re: IN> Interior Artwork Re: Nybbas non-evil? (was Re: IN> Atheists in IN) Re: IN> Enforced Morality in Choirs Re: IN> Santa Claus Re: IN> Santa Claus Re: IN> Enforced Morality in Choirs Re: IN> Enforced Morality in Choirs ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 23:49:27 -0700 (MST) From: Jason Corley Subject: Re: Defending Dominic (Re: IN> Enforced Morality in Choirs) On Thu, 3 Dec 1998 Akumsa@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 12/2/98 11:57:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, > corleyj@chronic.lpl.arizona.edu writes: > > << 2) However, crimes in which -the perpetrator is also the victim- (for > example, regular heroin use, self-loathing, aforementioned impure thoughts > that stop them from behaving in a way they know they should), Judgment > (and indeed all of Heaven) is going to try to fix somehow. The hard part > is fixing it in a way that isn't 'cheating'. Anyone can sing a Song or > two, but to really change someone takes a light touch. > >> > Which I personally dont think Dominic Has, he strikes me as a more of 'In > Youre Face' type AA. For missions like that, you need something less obvious, > Like Flowers or Creation. I think he's more subtle than that, but even if he's not, it doesn't mean his servitors can't be subtle. ("Man, the boss is a -heavy-...") Jason and were talking about the word ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 06:50:09 +0000 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: Defending Dominic (Re: IN> Enforced Morality in Choirs) At 21:50 02/12/98 -0700, you wrote: > > >> My problem with Dominic and his forces is who decides what is overpunishing >> and what isn't? Dominic, IMO, is more concerned about law than justice. > >Nay nay - judgment, good judgment, demands that justice be paramount. Law >is a tool and nothing more. > A common fallacy ;) Good judgement demands that CONSISTENCY be paramount. At least if you are being unfair and unjust, be consistently unfair... jo (This is why I think divine law _should_ be codified :) Heck, it works for the Napoleonic law) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 07:10:39 +0000 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Arcangeles - an SF setting for IN At 15:03 02/12/98 -0500, you wrote: >Arcangeles is an IN setting for an interplanetary future. It could also >be in the further, interstellar future, but then the city should be >older and, of course, you would want to add in whatever issues >distinguish your interstellar setting. > That was brilliant :) Absolutely delightful! jo ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 00:34:03 -0700 (MST) From: Jason Corley Subject: Re: Defending Dominic (Re: IN> Enforced Morality in Choirs) On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, Jo Hart wrote: > > > >Nay nay - judgment, good judgment, demands that justice be paramount. Law > >is a tool and nothing more. > > > > A common fallacy ;) Good judgement demands that CONSISTENCY be paramount. > At least if you are being unfair and unjust, be consistently unfair... > That seems to me to be a very very narrow view of 'judgment', particularly considering that 'reason' and 'moral judgment' are some of the things that rationalists and such describe to raise men above the level of animals. If justice isn't the end-goal of what Dominic does, he's a demon. Slavish adherence to consistency rather than a weighing of each situation and the proper dealing of mercy/wrath/correction/reward/punishment/suggestion/silence isn't judgment, it's just a list of rules, and there's nothing heavenly about that, even if God -did- write them. Jason onwards ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 03:43:19 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Santa Claus >>>Now, now, he could just as easily be a creation of Marc.<<< Nope. Santa Claus isn't about Trade. There's no exchange or bargain entailed in the myth of a magic sled-riding fat man giving away free gifts, and encouraging greed for undeserved rewards in children. This is canon, incidentally -- see Mammon's write-up in Heaven & Hell. >>>BTW, how about a tether in the North Pole?<<< Maybe to the Marches. >>>One final point, what about the connections between Santa Claus and pagan gods (such as Odin)?<<< It's the _modern_ incarnation of Santa Claus that is explicitly a creation of Mammon. The older legends on which St. Nick is based may come from a variety of sources. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 09:03:46 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Enforced Morality in Choirs On Wed, Dec 02, 1998 at 03:50:02PM -0600, The Shadow Puppet wrote: > I think you've forgotten a choir ... how does the dissonance restriction > of the Ofanim enforce a "moral" code of behavior? > The Ofanite dissonance is inaction (I know this isn't clear in the main rulebook). If good needs to be done, they can't skive off in the hope that someone else does it. Getting someone else to do it isn't dissonant, though I reckon most Ofanim prefer to do things themselves. Admittedly, this doesn't prevent them from doing evil things, but where do they find the time? > Using this same method, I can answer my own question about the Ofanim. > Perhaps they would view actions commonly thought of as 'evil' as > 'restricting the motion of others' -- murder, for example, does tend to > slow the victim down somewhat! And since an Ofanite is the Celestial > Embodiment of dynamic motion, how could s/he justify taking that away > from others? > Well, maybe. It could also be viewed as sending them on the greatest journey they'll ever be on. Again, I think most Ofanim are more worried about physical and mental freedom than danger. (I know my Seraph of the Wind thinks danger is a good thing.) Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "Warfare is the Tao of deception. Thus although capable, display incapability to them. When committed to employing your forces, feign inactivity. When [your objective] is nearby, make it appear as if distant; when far away, create the illusion of being nearby." -Sun Tzu, the Art of War. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 10:13:41 +0100 (CET) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: Defending Dominic (Re: IN> Enforced Morality in Choirs) On Wed, 2 Dec 1998, Jason Corley wrote: > 2) However, crimes in which -the perpetrator is also the victim- (for > example, regular heroin use, self-loathing, aforementioned impure thoughts > that stop them from behaving in a way they know they should), Judgment > (and indeed all of Heaven) is going to try to fix somehow. The hard part > is fixing it in a way that isn't 'cheating'. Anyone can sing a Song or > two, but to really change someone takes a light touch. This is where Gabriel's Mercurians come in - their job is, after all, to prevent people from being cruel to themselves. I imagine there is a lot of cooperation between some low-level servitors of Judgement with those of Fire, since they work in areas that are close to each other. Not all servitors, mind you - many Dominicans think the Gabrielites are too unstable, and not enough concerned with the law, and many Gabrielites think the Dominicans are too rigid and impassionate. Not to mention the conflict between their Superiors themselves... Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! May you have the knowledge of a sage, and the wisdom of a child. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 09:11:32 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: IN> Re: Defending Dominic Jason Corley wrote: Slavish adherence to consistency rather than a weighing of each situation and the proper dealing of mercy/wrath/correction/reward/punishment/suggestion/silence isn't judgment, it's just a list of rules, and there's nothing heavenly about that, even if God -did- write them. - -- You seem to be saying that any kind of codified system of laws is always going to be unjust. I suspect you are just blinkered by the modern-day American (and British) legal systems that we've grown up with which are based on common law, trial by jury and judicial reinterpreations according to precedents etc. There are other legal systems in the world which work differently. Just because something is based on strict codes doesn't mean it requires no judgement. There is always a requirement to acquire and work through the evidence, and weight it accordingly -- if only to decide precisely which of the codes has been broken and in what way. And even inside the code, there is likely some leeway for a judge to select a strict or a more lenient punishment. But really, if EVERYONE knows what the code is and what the penalties are, then if they are to mean anything, they need to be applied strictly and without fear or favour. Exceptions should be exceptional. Appeals should be appealing. jo (I don't know enough legal details to really argue through this in depth, although I know the bases of the French and English legal systems, to compare them.) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 10:21:15 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Arcangeles - an SF setting for IN Thank you all. I'm very gratified. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Dec 98 10:49 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Arcangeles - an SF setting for IN Definitely excellent. Might I suggest it be submitted to Pyramid? (Scott seems to be promising to get rid of the black hole Real Soon Now....) - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 10:56:04 -0500 From: Stacy Stroud Subject: IN> Dan Smith Art In a message dated 12/2/98 10:32:03 AM Central Standard Time, eeyore@visi.com writes: > As long as we're on the subject of things we'd like to see changed about > IN product, might I suggest that Dan Smith's art be de-emphasized if not > gotten rid of? I've gotta disagree. At first, I might have agreed with you, but over the years the game took to actually come out, Dan Smith's art *was* In Nomine. I was actually surprised (and a bit disappointed) when other artists began to appear, so powerfully had I associated the "Smif" look with this game. Not to mention that sometimes his art is just better than the alternatives. Compare "Eye of Z'ha'dum" Dominic in the main book to "My God, it's full of stars" Dominic in _Heaven and Hell_ for example. (And yes, I did steal those epithets from others, but that's 'cause they fit so well. If you'd like to claim credit, be my guest.) Stacy Stroud sstroud@uky.campus.mci.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 11:06:41 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Santa Claus David Edelstein wrote: > It's the _modern_ incarnation of Santa Claus that is explicitly a > creation of Mammon. The older legends on which St. Nick is based > may come from a variety of sources. Here's what I know about the legend of St. Nicholas: He was a bishop, in the 4th century, in what is now Turkey. He is associated with Christmas because his feast day is near Christmas. He is associated with children because one of his miracles was to resurrect some (three?) children murdered by an evil innkeeper. (I don't know the innkeeper's motive. Maybe just vile temper vented at scullery boys.) Another of his miracles is calming a storm and thus saving a shipload of sailors (and himself). Thus is he a patron saint of sailors, though that is seldom remembered now. His most famous deed is not really a miracle. He heard of three young women (teenage girls, I would guess) who were too poor to have doweries and so were in danger of being sold into prostitution. He snuck past their house one night and threw three bags of gold into their bedroom window. Hence his association with gifts. An additional detail has it that the bags landed in stockings draped over their bedposts, hence the tradition of the stocking, though later moved to the mantlepiece in some countries. In others, the footwear involved is shoes. The three bags of gold are the origin of the three gold balls that are the emblem of pawnbrokers, who have likewise taken St. Nick for their own -- probably the first slide toward Mammon's influence. The modern image of St. Nick -- at least in Anglophone countries -- derives almost entirely from the Clement Moore poem "A Visit from St. Nicholas." I suppose the flying reindeer and sled must pre- date the poem, but the poem gave them much wider circulation. It is these transport items that probably connect to legends like Odin and the Wild Hunt. The Moore poem was in the early 1800s. Dickens was another major shaper of modern Christmas, notably in "A Christmas Carol" (in which St. Nick does not appear, but the Spirit of Christmas Present looks a great deal like him, or like the "Father Christmas" that is Nick's alternate identity, even more removed from the historical saint). The market forces started in on Christmas almost immediately. At first, this was generally regarded as a Good Thing, because, hitherto, Christmas had not been a family-values, G-rated sort of holiday at all, but was a rowdy bash more like New Year's. (This was why the Puritans banned it.) Dickens and Moore pushed things toward children and generosity. Obviously, Mammon was right on top of this and, essentially, muscled Andrealpheus out of Christmas and settled down in the vacant chair right next to Haagenti. I don't have the write-up on Mammon's Santa Claus. What are the possible relations between him and a human St. Nicholas still working in the Lower Heavens? Earl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 09:58:43 -0700 (MST) From: Jason Corley Subject: Re: IN> Re: Defending Dominic On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, Hart, Joanna wrote: > Jason Corley wrote: > Slavish > adherence to consistency rather than a weighing of each situation and > the > proper dealing of > mercy/wrath/correction/reward/punishment/suggestion/silence isn't > judgment, it's just a list of rules, and there's nothing heavenly about > that, even if God -did- write them. > > > -- > > > There are other legal systems in the world which work differently. Just > because something is based on strict codes doesn't mean it requires no > judgement. There is always a requirement to acquire and work through the > evidence, and weight it accordingly -- if only to decide precisely which of > the codes has been broken and in what way. And even inside the code, there > is likely some leeway for a judge to select a strict or a more lenient > punishment. Well, of course, but the important thing is not the code of behaviour, not to Dominic, the important thing is the judgment that results, and that it be as just as possible. > But really, if EVERYONE knows what the code is and what the penalties are, > then if they are to mean anything, they need to be applied strictly and > without fear or favour. Exceptions should be exceptional. Appeals should be > appealing. Sure, this is quite true. I just happen to think that there's a quantum of difference between a code of behaviour and the judgment to apply it well. Sure, Dominic is attached to law. Law is an easy and pretty effective tool for the monkeys to make good judgments about things in most cases. There's probably an angel of law (see the INC). But that doesn't mean Dominic (Or the angel of law that serves/works closely with him) is so uncontrollably dedicated to it that they have lost sight of the true goal of their word, and indeed, much of Heaven, which is justice. It's like saying that because Rock And Roll is a really ripping good way for some otherwise rather average monkeys to get together in a garage and be creative, that all Eli really cares about is Rock And Roll. I still say Dominic and his bunch would support civil disobedience against unjust laws. That sems to me to be such a fundamental part of his word that it isn't even much of a question. Jason came home from the war with a party in his head ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 12:11:58 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: IN> Santa Claus (from the Archives) All of this talk about Santa Claus made me remember this little gem from last year. It took some digging, but I think it's about the best In Nomine interpretation of Santa so far. (One of these days, I may even relate how it impacted my campaign.) So, without further ado, here is "We interrupt this mailing list"... - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 21:34:36 -0500 From: Nana Yaw Ofori Subject: IN> We interrupt this mailing list... (Okay, so it's not a movie trailer. But I'm bored, I've got a lot of time, and a Netadress account. So let me say 'Bah Humbug' to you all right now. \|=) Female Voice: "We're not sure who put them on Ralph's head, and Kobal refused to comment." Lilim: "It just goes to show you, even the Prince of Apathy can show a little Christmas Cheer. Right, Frank?" Frank (the Djinn): "Feh." Lilim: "When we return, the Death of Santa Claus." "Your Angels put me through a vicious spot of Trauma. Sent me back to Perdition, and got me taken off Earth duty for awhile. But I'm drinking Ilk. In a few millenia, I'll be big, and strong, and I'll march into Heaven and blacken all six of your eyes. For a start." VO: "Ilk. It Does a body good." "Behold the power of Cheese." "I'll buy that for a dollar!" "I've fallen, and I can't get up!" "Turn the channel. Now." Voice-over: "VapuTech. We're not perfect, but whatcha gonna do?" James Earl Jones-like Voice-Over.: " Nybbas News Network. All News is Good News." Lilim: "--_another_ new slogan? That's the third one this hour. Unbeliev--" (Her eyes go wide, and she turns towards the camera, and puts on a half-panicky smile) "And we're back." Lilim: "Today, for the seventh time this century, Santa Claus was killed, this time in Saskatchewan. We go to our correspondent Harnazanthul in Dahoonek for the details. Harna: "Thank you, Janet. Santa Claus. Saint Nick. Father Christmas. However you slice it, he was traditionally portrayed as a Jolly old Man who visited houses on Christmas Eve, giving presents to the good children, and, at best, leaving nothing for bad children. And until early this century, he was nothing but a lie tied to the Christmas Holiday and an old Christian saint that parents told to their children to perpetuate their ignorance." "However, with the dawning of the 20th century, enough worldwide belief in Santa Claus was generated that an Ethereal who answered to the name appeared in the Far Marches. On December 24, 1922, he took a Vessel and visited Earth late at night." "The new Santa Claus's Modus Operandi was to visit houses late at night, and check the children to see if they were bad or good. If they were Good, he would add a present to the pile under the tree, and take a bit of Essence, while visions of sugar plums danced in their heads. If they were bad, he would steal all their Essence, and leave nothing. Storing the stolen Essence in his sleigh, a massive Reliquary, he would then head to the next house, and could usually visit fifty or sixty such houses before the night was through. "And that's the way it went until December 24, 1952. As is commonly known, the Host frowns upon Ethereals visiting Heaven, and on this night, over Defiance, Ohio, Kris Kringle was ambushed by a hit squad of Sword Angels, and vessel-slain. They also managed to off Dasher, Dancer, Prancer, and Blitzen, but the other five reindeer fled to the Ethereal before they suffered a similar fate. "Battered and broken, Jolly Old Nick retrated to his workshop to recuperate. But it wasn't the last time. Subsequently, in 1965, Maeven, the Angel of the Heavy Lead Pipe bludgeoned him to death on the roof of an apartment complex.. Similar incidents in 1971, 1983, 1987, 1992, 1994, and 1996 have plagued him and his organization. "This brings us to today, December 25, 1997. In the wee hours of the morning, a small platoon of Angels took the sleigh down with a Surface-To-Air Missile, and then descended upon the fallen sleigh and attacked Santa until he was forced to abandon his Vessel. They then pursued him to his Workshop in The Marches, and Soul-Killed him.there." "As you can see behind me, the workshop is in tatters. The Elves are currently attempting to confine the blaze, with little success. The attack, unexpected and unprovoked, was swift and brutal. It was truly a Christmas Midnight Massacre. Elf: "They descended upon us with out warning. One minute we were kicking bnack, wating for the big guy to get back, when suddenly, he pops in the middle of the courtyard, trailing fifteen or so of the Host. We tried to do whatbb we could, but they were Full-fledged Angels, and they held us at bay easily. In a few minutes, it was all over, and the old man was gone." "Then the big one turned to look at us and frowned. ' Consider yourselves all warned,' he said. 'Interfere not in the Mortal World.' And then they were all gone." "I dunno what we're gonna do now. I've got a wife and kids to feed. I suppose I could go back to making cookies, but I was real good at the toymaking, and they're only hiring part-time." Harna: "It's truly awful here, Janet. The bodies are everywhere, and the destruction is vast and far-reaching. Earlier, we talked to Urvex, a servitor of Technology, and self-proclaimed expert on The Marches." Urvex: "Yes, Santa's dead. But even if one of his Elves doesn't take his place, Human belief in him is likely to spawn another before the year's out. Fascinating thing, belief. Chrustmas '98 should see a new Santa cruising the skies...And another attempt on his life by the other side. It's--Oh, bloody hell." (She ducks behind the desk, there's a flash of white, and the camera goes to static.) Harna: "So, once again, the forces of Heaven have managed to trash a childhood idol, sacred to millions of children all across the planet Earth. I'd like to take this moment to say, If any of you out there have actual footage of this tragedy, or an excellent facsimile thereof, please contact the NNN studios. Back to you, Janet." New Lilim: "Candace here. Thank you for that stirring report." Candace: "I'll be the new host of NN for this hour of NNN, as the former host, Janet, transfeered, citing 'A need to keep her hand in.' She'll be appearing on 'Nightly NNN' as that show's Forty-Eigth War Correspondent." - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 10:07:01 -0800 From: "B.H." Subject: IN> One poor benighted demon... I'm trying to create a really weird demon for my IN game. He's the Demon of Imagination, a Balseraph. He's just got a problem. You see, he worked for Fate, inspiring more and more imaginative ways for Mortals to seal their fate and others. Worked with Technology some, too. Unfortunately, in a fit of 'imagination' (read: insanity) he chose the choir of Malakim to copy... And he decided he liked Malakim better than Balseraph... But he finds it REAL easy to lie... But he REALLY wants to redeem... So we now have a very powerful renegade word-bound demon, with lots of discord. I have a specific discord in mind for him, but I don't know if it will work, what levels it would count as, etc. Now, as a demon, he's an 18-forcer- old, powerful, and smart. However, his schizophrenic lifestyle has given him a real lack of self-confidence, in his discord... And here's how it works. Under normal conditions, he is treated as though all of his attributes are 9. If he manages, somehow, to focus solely on what he's doing, edit out all self-doubt and fear, he gets his actual attributes, 12's. But, if he stops to think about what he's doing, even for a minute... If he gets any distractions, or starts hyping it up in his mind, his attributes drop down to 4. His skills similarly very, having a 6 in whatever skills I give him at max focus or no discord, 3 most of the time, and 1 or 0 under panic conditions. He's 'panicked' a lot- he thinks too much. His soul, body, and mind numbers do not change- just his effective abilities. Similarly, while he can always lift as though he had a strength of 12, he'll be rolling on endurance, maneuvers, that sort of thing as though he had a strength of 3 if he stops to think about it. So, what do y'all think? Over-the-top? Suggestions? - -- Brian A.H. "I am Don Arturo de Los Angeles. I am the greatest reader of all time. I have read over a million books in my lifetime, and their pages flow through my mind like summer days..." Phoenix Clan Purifier*Gaijin*Shugenja*ABC Geeky Shugenja Man*Totoroan L5R(1.1) PX+ S(LA) G++ R Y+ C+ E+ M-- T-- D++ K U+++ L5R(R1.3) GP++ (PR+++ CC++) RP+ GT:! P+ PX/LN+ S++ G+++ R Y+ C++ CG++ U+++ J---- ABC(1.0) PX/ABC++(ic, anyways. =)) S(LA) Y+ A++ D++ BO/OC!N!++++(nosebleed) P+++ U++ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 18:12:54 +0000 (GMT) From: Steve Jessop Subject: Re: IN> Enforced Morality in Choirs On Wed, 2 Dec 1998, Eeyore wrote: > My conception is that, while Dominic has his resonance to tell him what > the facts are and a lot of experience to call on, he does not have a > pipeline to always knowing what is Justice and Right. He has to use his > judgement (small "j" on that one) and run the risk of being wrong. Why do you say 'small j'? You can chuck out the justice/law problem simply by saying that Judgment is our ability to appreciate, for ourselves, the Divine Will, and that this is what Dominic (and hopefully his servitors) have as their first priority. So Dominic is the AA of 'using your judgment', and his particular responsibility is correcting those whose judgment is flawed (for example, those who break a just law, or heretics, or whatever). The rest of what you say precisely follows my thoughts from this idea, in particular his insecurity that he is sometimes wrong too. Another consequence is that Dominic *only* supports law in general because laws are exercises of the judgment of people who in theory can be relied on (but in practice, can't). Steve. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 02:48:23 +0000 (GMT) From: Rhodri James Subject: Re: IN> Game "coolness" meta-theory continues.... In article <199812022242.RAA28854@wolfe.bbn.com>, Walter Milliken wrote: > I suppose it's easier to answer that with a negative -- while all three > are somewhat similar in the aspect that they typically involve > ultra-powerful beings with weird supernatural powers, they differ a lot > in the core "feel". So far we agree :-) > Horror, as I see it, is primarily concerned with evoking feelings of > dread and fear. On the whole, I think this is why I don't like Horror as a genre. I don't like being scared, even by proxy, and I tend to subvert horror games that I'm in either consciously (for example by playing Henry Crun when I was draGooned into a game of CoC) or subconsciously (through exaggerating character elements, in one case a speech impediment, to the point of absurdity as it becomes more obvious that I am in fact stuck in a Horror scenario). > The supers genre seems to be mostly about beating up > bad guys (or good guys, or maybe just anyone) and causing lots of > collateral damage -- i.e., it's about being feeling powerful. IN seems > to me to mostly be about moral and ethical issues, and hard choices. Funnily enough, the fourteen year long Champions campaign that I played in was mostly about moral and ethical issues, and making hard choices. Beating up bad guys (and towards the end spending a lot of time trying to recruit them) was just the backdrop that the issues played out against. By a strange coicidence, the same guy is currently my IN GM. - -- Rhodri James *-* Wildebeeste herder to the masses If you don't know who I work for, you can't misattribute my words to them ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 02:52:46 +0000 (GMT) From: Rhodri James Subject: Re: IN> Interior Artwork In article , wrote: > In a message dated 12/2/98 10:32:03 AM Central Standard Time, eeyore@visi.com > writes: > > As long as we're on the subject of things we'd like to see changed > > bout IN product, might I suggest that Dan Smith's art be > > de-emphasized if not gotten rid of? > Hey, I like Dan Smith's stuff, though I agree that bringing in other > artists wouldn't hurt. Variety being the spice of life and stuff. Hmm. While I liked some of Dan's work in the core rulebook, much of it is pretty hideous and nothing lived up to the glorious feather on the cover! The concept of IN had me pretty much sold before I walked into the shop, and the cover art clinched it. Leafing through and seeing the interior artwork nearly reversed the decision :-/ - -- Rhodri James *-* Wildebeeste herder to the masses If you don't know who I work for, you can't misattribute my words to them ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 03:14:00 +0000 (GMT) From: Rhodri James Subject: Re: Nybbas non-evil? (was Re: IN> Atheists in IN) In article , Leath Sheales <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> wrote: > Joanna wrote: > > be up for it :) ). Actually, whilst I'm namedropping, the other ones I > > have and like are Arabian Nights and Discworld. > In fairness, you can hardly thank SJG for the inspired work of > Discworld. Thank Terry Pratchett instead. It's probably not entirely coincidence that both GURPS translations were written by Phil Masters :-) - -- Rhodri James *-* Wildebeeste herder to the masses If you don't know who I work for, you can't misattribute my words to them ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 14:07:12 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Enforced Morality in Choirs At 3:04 PM -0800 12/2/98, Greg Jensen wrote: >My problem with Dominic and his forces is who decides what is overpunishing >and what isn't? Dominic, IMO, is more concerned about law than justice. Actually, that's contradicted in the text -- in his mainbook writeup, his angels will aid just laws, and break any that hamper them in their pursuit of Dominican (what's so funky about calling 'em that?) Justice. >True, if you haven't broken any laws, you won't get punished. But what if >the law itself is unjust? Where does Dominic stand on civil disobedience? IMC, he'd be saying, "Let the humans do it, sure." Mind, you probably don't want to try doing civil disobedience at *Judgment*... >One way to run Dominicians >(is that right?) is that they really do only go for an "eye for an eye" >kind of punishment. If you steal, they'll steal from you. I'd say, they *take* from you -- at the least, whatever you stole, or its equivalent. Other than that, yes, that's about right. Equivalent punishment for the sin/crime. > If you hurt >somebody, they will hurt you. If you kill, you die. You know, I just had this horrible, *horrible* image of a Dominican with Celestial Form and the "transfer to others" Song which I believe is in Songbook. And someone who'd committed certain kinds of assault. The question becomes, perhaps, how do they ensure equivalent punishments *without* becoming as low, in certain circumstances, as those they punish? (And all the Fire Servitors snicker and say, "We are better because we are *told* to do this stuff, and our Archangel talks to God! NYAH!") (I think I need to get some blood sugar. I'm getting weird.) >But what about >victimless crimes? If you do drugs or forget to wear a veil in public or >have impure thoughts, how does one punish that in a way that fits the "crime?" Lots and lots of lectures trying to get you to understand how what you are doing is not only harming yourself, but also harming others. At length, with varying degrees of stridency. (Except the veil one, Dominic wouldn't care -- that's Khalid's pet bugaboo. Dominic would have fits about things like infidelity.) (If he weren't busy having fits about Falling angels.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 14:41:48 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Santa Claus At 3:43 AM -0500 12/3/98, David Edelstein wrote: >>>>Now, now, he could just as easily be a creation of Marc.<<< > >Nope. Santa Claus isn't about Trade. There's no exchange or bargain >entailed in the myth of a magic sled-riding fat man giving away free gifts, >and encouraging greed for undeserved rewards in children. What about the "be good, you get stuff; be bad, you get a lump of coal" stuff? (Though I'm not sure that's Trade either...) >It's the _modern_ incarnation of Santa Claus that is explicitly a creation >of Mammon. The older legends on which St. Nick is based may come from a >variety of sources. (I'd think so, myself, yeah...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 21:19:31 +0100 (CET) From: Anders Gabrielsson Subject: Re: IN> Santa Claus On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 3:43 AM -0500 12/3/98, David Edelstein wrote: > >>>>Now, now, he could just as easily be a creation of Marc.<<< > > > >Nope. Santa Claus isn't about Trade. There's no exchange or bargain > >entailed in the myth of a magic sled-riding fat man giving away free gifts, > >and encouraging greed for undeserved rewards in children. > > What about the "be good, you get stuff; be bad, you get a lump of coal" > stuff? (Though I'm not sure that's Trade either...) Sounds more like behavioral extortion to me. :) Anders Gabrielsson anders@stp.ling.uu.se The contents of this message belong to me and nobody else. So there! May you have the knowledge of a sage, and the wisdom of a child. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 15:21:04 EST From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Enforced Morality in Choirs In a message dated 12/3/98 11:18:23 AM, emccoy@nh.ultranet.com writes: >At 3:04 PM -0800 12/2/98, Greg Jensen wrote: >>My problem with Dominic and his forces is who decides what is overpunishing >>and what isn't? Dominic, IMO, is more concerned about law than justice. > >Actually, that's contradicted in the text -- in his mainbook write-up, >his angels will aid just laws, and break any that hamper them in their >pursuit of Dominican (what's so funky about calling 'em that?) Justice. > Dominican is also the common term for a Brother of the Order of St. Dominic, a real-life religious order. By no coincidence whatsoever, they were the prime movers of the Spanish Inquisition. (Remember INS is satirical and fairly thoroughly anti-Catholic...) In my campaign, the Dominican (OSD) Priory in the University District is also a tether to Dominic. >You know, I just had this horrible, *horrible* image of a Dominican >with Celestial Form and the "transfer to others" Song which I believe is >in Songbook. And someone who'd committed certain kinds of assault. > >The question becomes, perhaps, how do they ensure equivalent punishments >*without* becoming as low, in certain circumstances, as those they punish? >(And all the Fire Servitors snicker and say, "We are better because we >are *told* to do this stuff, and our Archangel talks to God! NYAH!") > That's why Domini Canes run in packs. A triad determines the punishment collegially, and one of their members executes the punishment. >(I think I need to get some blood sugar. I'm getting weird.) > >>But what about >>victimless crimes? If you do drugs or forget to wear a veil in public >or >>have impure thoughts, how does one punish that in a way that fits the >"crime?" > >Lots and lots of lectures trying to get you to understand how what you >are doing is not only harming yourself, but also harming others. At length, >with varying degrees of stridency. (Except the veil one, Dominic wouldn't >care -- that's Khalid's pet bugaboo. Dominic would have fits about things >like infidelity.) Actually, the "Kinder, Gentler Khalid" would probably also not care about the veil one. The actual line in the Qu'uran (sp?) translates out to (roughly) "Women, in modesty, should veil their breast when not in the home." The infidelity thing would definitely frustrate *my* Dominic. > >(If he weren't busy having fits about Falling angels.) > > >--emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor >GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ > > Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 12:45:43 -0800 From: "B.H." Subject: Re: IN> Enforced Morality in Choirs Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > > At 3:04 PM -0800 12/2/98, Greg Jensen wrote: > >My problem with Dominic and his forces is who decides what is overpunishing > >and what isn't? Dominic, IMO, is more concerned about law than justice. > > Actually, that's contradicted in the text -- in his mainbook writeup, > his angels will aid just laws, and break any that hamper them in their > pursuit of Dominican (what's so funky about calling 'em that?) Justice. > Personal joke. The Dominicans are a type of monk, I believe. > >True, if you haven't broken any laws, you won't get punished. But what if > >the law itself is unjust? Where does Dominic stand on civil disobedience? > > IMC, he'd be saying, "Let the humans do it, sure." Mind, you probably > don't want to try doing civil disobedience at *Judgment*... > Hmmm... I wonder. What would happen if his own angels began civil disobedience, claiming that he was guilty of the sins of Pride and Envy... > >One way to run Dominicians > >(is that right?) is that they really do only go for an "eye for an eye" > >kind of punishment. If you steal, they'll steal from you. > > I'd say, they *take* from you -- at the least, whatever you stole, or > its equivalent. Other than that, yes, that's about right. Equivalent > punishment for the sin/crime. > Stealing, as Valefor knows well, isn't just about taking some object away. It creates fear, envy, and distrust. > > If you hurt > >somebody, they will hurt you. If you kill, you die. > > You know, I just had this horrible, *horrible* image of a Dominican > with Celestial Form and the "transfer to others" Song which I believe is > in Songbook. And someone who'd committed certain kinds of assault. I like it. =) > > The question becomes, perhaps, how do they ensure equivalent punishments > *without* becoming as low, in certain circumstances, as those they punish? > (And all the Fire Servitors snicker and say, "We are better because we > are *told* to do this stuff, and our Archangel talks to God! NYAH!") *giggles* One more reason why I think Dominic is guilty of the sin of Envy... > > (I think I need to get some blood sugar. I'm getting weird.) > > >But what about > >victimless crimes? If you do drugs or forget to wear a veil in public or > >have impure thoughts, how does one punish that in a way that fits the "crime?" > > Lots and lots of lectures trying to get you to understand how what you > are doing is not only harming yourself, but also harming others. At length, > with varying degrees of stridency. (Except the veil one, Dominic wouldn't > care -- that's Khalid's pet bugaboo. Dominic would have fits about things > like infidelity.) I have to agree here. Victimless crimes often aren't. Prostitution, for one. Most prostitutes are virtual slaves of their pimps/controllers/what have you. And the kind of business the 'freelancers' deal in... I took a feminist ethics class over the summer. We talked to a former prostitute- very eye opening. Furthermore, drugs are not only a case of self-destruction. They harm others around you. Watch Trainspotting, especially the baby scene. And you're fueling the drug business, which needs more people to keep growing, and you're giving them the money to do so- and the money to bribe, buy weapons... And what about drunk or dui accidents? Those certainly aren't 'victimless' crimes... In short, most so-called victimless crimes (in the US anyway) aren't. > > (If he weren't busy having fits about Falling angels.) > > --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor > GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ - -- Brian A.H. "I am Don Arturo de Los Angeles. I am the greatest reader of all time. I have read over a million books in my lifetime, and their pages flow through my mind like summer days..." Phoenix Clan Purifier*Gaijin*Shugenja*ABC Geeky Shugenja Man*Totoroan L5R(1.1) PX+ S(LA) G++ R Y+ C+ E+ M-- T-- D++ K U+++ L5R(R1.3) GP++ (PR+++ CC++) RP+ GT:! P+ PX/LN+ S++ G+++ R Y+ C++ CG++ U+++ J---- ABC(1.0) PX/ABC++(ic, anyways. =)) S(LA) Y+ A++ D++ BO/OC!N!++++(nosebleed) P+++ U++ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1034 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.