From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Dec 4 05:01:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA31775 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 05:01:03 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id EAA18439 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 04:46:06 -0600 Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 04:46:06 -0600 Message-Id: <199812041046.EAA18439@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1035 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, December 4 1998 Volume 01 : Number 1035 In this digest: Re: IN> Santa Claus Re: IN> Interior Artwork IN> Bodiless Shedim IN> Distinctions Question Re: IN> Bodiless Shedim Re: IN> Distinctions Question Re: IN> Bodiless Shedim IN> Questions Re: IN> Santa Claus Re: IN> Distinctions Question Re: IN> Game "coolness" meta-theory continues.... Re: IN> Bodiless Shedim Re: IN> One poor benighted demon... RE: IN> Bodiless Shedim Re: IN> Questions Re: IN> Bodiless Shedim IN> Humans Re: IN> Game "coolness" meta-theory continues.... Re: IN> Humans IN> Lilith: Geasa vs. hooks Re: IN> Lilith: Geasa vs. hooks Re: IN> Questions Re:IN> Dan Smith Art Re: IN> Questions IN> Re: IN- Bodiless Shedim Re: IN> Re: IN- Bodiless Shedim Re: IN> Re: IN- Bodiless Shedim Re: IN> Questions Re: IN> Insipring books and In Nom Time Travel Re: IN> Game "coolness" meta-theory continues.... Re: IN> Game "coolness" meta-theory continues.... Re: IN> Game Mechanics Re: IN> Fun books... Re: IN> Interior Artwork Re: IN> Interior Artwork Re: IN> Game "coolness" meta-theory continues.... IN> Law and Judgment and Morality IN> Santa Claus IN> Santa Claus ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 15:45:20 -0500 From: Setzer Gabbiani Subject: Re: IN> Santa Claus At 14:41 12/3/98 -0500, you wrote: >At 3:43 AM -0500 12/3/98, David Edelstein wrote: >>>>>Now, now, he could just as easily be a creation of Marc.<<< >> >>Nope. Santa Claus isn't about Trade. There's no exchange or bargain >>entailed in the myth of a magic sled-riding fat man giving away free gifts, >>and encouraging greed for undeserved rewards in children. > >What about the "be good, you get stuff; be bad, you get a lump of coal" >stuff? (Though I'm not sure that's Trade either...) > that sounds more like dominic to me, all about judgement. Dominic isn't quite the give a lump of coal type though. He's more the be good i leave you alone be bad i have a few malikim kill you type. i think only gabriel or eli would give someone a piece of coal and that would be a different thing entirely. Ben c.o.d. "i really don't think i should have to remind you of this but we are talking to BAAL the demon prince of WAR. you don't haggle." Porter, newly fallen calibite to Simon, newly fallen habbalah ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 16:23:38 -0500 (EST) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Interior Artwork On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, Rhodri James wrote: > > > As long as we're on the subject of things we'd like to see changed > > > bout IN product, might I suggest that Dan Smith's art be > > > de-emphasized if not gotten rid of? > > > Hey, I like Dan Smith's stuff, though I agree that bringing in other > > artists wouldn't hurt. Variety being the spice of life and stuff. > > Hmm. While I liked some of Dan's work in the core rulebook, much of it is > pretty hideous and nothing lived up to the glorious feather on the cover! > The concept of IN had me pretty much sold before I walked into the shop, > and the cover art clinched it. Leafing through and seeing the interior > artwork nearly reversed the decision :-/ Toss one more hat into the ring for less Smif. I loved him in INWO, and a few of his pieces were great in the book, but he's just wayyyy too cartoony for In Nomine. His Superiors are about 50/50, and the rest of the book is about 20/80 (like/dislike). - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! ::: Thinking about a Tampa Bay Devival in the future - email me! ::: Or go to http://www.cris.com/~pkitty (hell, go there anyways!) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 16:57:14 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> Bodiless Shedim So, I was wondering, given that (A) Shedim cannot go to Limbo and (B) Renegades can be Heartless (NPI), what happens to a hostless Shedite when he *can't* get to another Host before his time is up, since normally after 10 x Cele Forces in minutes he would snap back to his Heart... He can't go to Limbo, does he get really sleepy and "enter" the Marches? - -Perry, KFC Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "Remember, false hope is still hope." -Dilbert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 17:00:35 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> Distinctions Question When a Vassal earns the rank of Friend, does he lose the ability granted to him (the priviledges of) by his former rank? Why or why not? - -Perry, Kyriotate of Flowers serving Creation and sometimes Tanniael, Archangel of Tea Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "Remember, false hope is still hope." -Dilbert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 17:27:25 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Bodiless Shedim At 4:57 PM -0500 12/3/98, Perry Lloyd wrote: >So, I was wondering, given that (A) Shedim cannot go to Limbo and (B) >Renegades can be Heartless (NPI), what happens to a hostless Shedite >when he *can't* get to another Host before his time is up, since >normally after 10 x Cele Forces in minutes he would snap back to his >Heart... He can't go to Limbo, does he get really sleepy and "enter" >the Marches? Two options: number one, which I think is in the IPG, is that the Symphony starts tearing it apart. Number two, which I kinda favor, 'cause it's *worse* is that he starts making Will rolls. If he succeeds, he gets soul hits in some nasty dose. If he fails, he gets sucked into Limbo. And the only way to leave Limbo is to form a vessel. Which Shedim cannot do. Buwhahahahha. (Kyrios of War or Stone might be able to escape Limbo.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 17:28:15 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Distinctions Question At 5:00 PM -0500 12/3/98, Perry Lloyd wrote: >When a Vassal earns the rank of Friend, does he lose the ability granted >to him (the priviledges of) by his former rank? He keeps everything below, but it's not counted on character sheets because it's too long to say, Vassal of foo, Friend of bar, Master of blech, Ambassador of Flowers. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 14:35:12 -0800 From: "B.H." Subject: Re: IN> Bodiless Shedim Perry Lloyd wrote: > > So, I was wondering, given that (A) Shedim cannot go to Limbo and (B) > Renegades can be Heartless (NPI), what happens to a hostless Shedite > when he *can't* get to another Host before his time is up, since > normally after 10 x Cele Forces in minutes he would snap back to his > Heart... He can't go to Limbo, does he get really sleepy and "enter" > the Marches? > > -Perry, KFC I believe he disapates, destroyed forever... - -- Brian A.H. "I am Don Arturo de Los Angeles. I am the greatest reader of all time. I have read over a million books in my lifetime, and their pages flow through my mind like summer days..." Phoenix Clan Purifier*Gaijin*Shugenja*ABC Geeky Shugenja Man*Totoroan L5R(1.1) PX+ S(LA) G++ R Y+ C+ E+ M-- T-- D++ K U+++ L5R(R1.3) GP++ (PR+++ CC++) RP+ GT:! P+ PX/LN+ S++ G+++ R Y+ C++ CG++ U+++ J---- ABC(1.0) PX/ABC++(ic, anyways. =)) S(LA) Y+ A++ D++ BO/OC!N!++++(nosebleed) P+++ U++ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 14:31:37 PST From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: IN> Questions Re: Arcangeles: I like this idea. Would its author please send me a copy of the writeup by private e-mail, since I can't print individual messages from the digest? Rules question: Recently, a Malakite sang a Song of Thunder. His opponents all fell over. He was surprised, since he had expected the leader to be still standing while his soldiers fell over ... so he gave the leader a good swat to see what happened. The gamemaster said that he heard nothing, but that he would have heard nothing whether the leader was still human or not because the Song of Thunder was drowning out everything else. I disagreed, saying that the Song of Thunder prevented anything else from being heard ELSEWHERE (like the Song of Shields only noisy). Which of us is correct? Concept question: During my very enjoyable reading of the In Nomine Collection and other sources, I have come across the common assumption that Lilim, free and otherwise, are fascinated/intrigued/strongly attracted to Malakim. There is a brief mention of this in (I think) the Infernal Player's Guide, but it seems to have been elaborated considerably. What is the rationale of this? Are Lilim seriously into danger, or what? (I think Malakim are pretty neat myself, but then I like paladins, too. I just don't understand why Lilim would.) Janet Anderson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 17:41:19 -0500 (EST) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Santa Claus On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >Nope. Santa Claus isn't about Trade. There's no exchange or bargain > >entailed in the myth of a magic sled-riding fat man giving away free gifts, > >and encouraging greed for undeserved rewards in children. > > What about the "be good, you get stuff; be bad, you get a lump of coal" > stuff? (Though I'm not sure that's Trade either...) It depends on which Archangel would encompass the Word of Charity. Personally, I think it would be Marc. Charity -is- a Trade, in a manner of speaking; money or food or whatever is given to the needy, and the giver feels good in return. I'd call that an equal trade. - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 14:48:43 -0800 From: "B.H." Subject: Re: IN> Distinctions Question Ummm... I'm fairly sure in the FAQ or in one of the books, it says that they don't lose their abilities... Perry Lloyd wrote: > > When a Vassal earns the rank of Friend, does he lose the ability granted > to him (the priviledges of) by his former rank? > > Why or why not? > > -Perry, Kyriotate of Flowers serving Creation and sometimes Tanniael, > Archangel of Tea > > Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) > > "Remember, false hope is still hope." > -Dilbert > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - -- Brian A.H. "I am Don Arturo de Los Angeles. I am the greatest reader of all time. I have read over a million books in my lifetime, and their pages flow through my mind like summer days..." Phoenix Clan Purifier*Gaijin*Shugenja*ABC Geeky Shugenja Man*Totoroan L5R(1.1) PX+ S(LA) G++ R Y+ C+ E+ M-- T-- D++ K U+++ L5R(R1.3) GP++ (PR+++ CC++) RP+ GT:! P+ PX/LN+ S++ G+++ R Y+ C++ CG++ U+++ J---- ABC(1.0) PX/ABC++(ic, anyways. =)) S(LA) Y+ A++ D++ BO/OC!N!++++(nosebleed) P+++ U++ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Dec 98 17:41 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Game "coolness" meta-theory continues.... [Rhodri:] >> Horror, as I see it, is primarily concerned with evoking feelings of >> dread and fear. > >On the whole, I think this is why I don't like Horror as a genre. I don't >like being scared, even by proxy, Me too. My defenses against same are that the suspenders of disbelief snap, and this makes the game pretty boring/useless. Also, I like solving problems, and my perception about the horror genre is that the problems are intentionally unsolvable: "You can't win, you can't break even, but you can break into a lot of little messy bits." It's a very "storyteller" genre, and I have no tolerance for that in any genre. >Funnily enough, the fourteen year long Champions campaign that I played in >was mostly about moral and ethical issues, and making hard choices. I can easily see how this might be possible. But this isn't how I see the genre being perceived generally. From what little I've seen and heard, "moral and ethical issues" in mainstream comics mostly seem to be oriented toward "my life is really awful even though I'm super-powerful" angst. I could easily be wrong, since this is a superficial impression from what I've seen on the comic store shelves where we buy our manga titles, and from gaming friends who follow "mainstream" comics. When I grew up, of course, comics heroes were "real heroes" -- i.e., people with no lives who went around beating up bad guys who wanted to take over the world for no particularly good reason. Neither of those points on the spectrum appeals to me. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Dec 98 17:44 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Bodiless Shedim >(Kyrios of War or Stone might be able to escape Limbo.) And possibly the Wind. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Dec 98 17:46 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> One poor benighted demon... > So, what do y'all think? Over-the-top? A Balseraph with that Word? Seems pretty reasonable, to me. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 14:48:10 -0800 From: "Steven Feldon (Exchange)" Subject: RE: IN> Bodiless Shedim If Kyrios of the Wind can get out of Limbo, why not Shedites of Theft? steve -----Original Message----- From: Walter Milliken [mailto:milliken@BBN.COM] Sent: Thursday, December 03, 1998 2:44 PM To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Subject: Re: IN> Bodiless Shedim >(Kyrios of War or Stone might be able to escape Limbo.) And possibly the Wind. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 18:14:48 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Questions At 2:31 PM -0800 12/3/98, Janet Anderson wrote: >Rules question: Recently, a Malakite sang a Song of Thunder[...] >The gamemaster said that he heard nothing, but that he would have heard >nothing whether the leader was still human or not because the Song of >Thunder was drowning out everything else. I disagreed, saying that the >Song of Thunder prevented anything else from being heard ELSEWHERE (like >the Song of Shields only noisy). Which of us is correct? From p. 85: "Also [the Song of Thunder's] general chaos *masks all other disturbances to the Symphony* for [yadda minutes]". The GM is right. (OTOH, you may be right too -- just treat everyone in the area as celestially deafened for a while, to EVERYTHING.) >Concept question: During my very enjoyable reading of the In Nomine >Collection and other sources, I have come across the common assumption >that Lilim, free and otherwise, are fascinated/intrigued/strongly >attracted to Malakim. There is a brief mention of this in (I think) the >Infernal Player's Guide, but it seems to have been elaborated >considerably. What is the rationale of this? Malakim have Good Views from behind. >Are Lilim seriously into danger, or what? Actually, it depends on the Lilim -- but I wouldn't be surprised... (Some have speculated that it's memetic influence from Lilith herself, who will hand out great favors and gifts to any Lilim who can get a real Geas (not just a hook) on Laurence. But hey, we're silly...) Honestly, there's the notion of the *redeemed* having this attraction (sort of, it's more the novelty of being able to get a good look at them instead of diving for cover, and entirely likely to wear off after a while!), but in non-canon sources, well... Consider them a common view, but not canon! Or, as Em may say, "We're just goofs!" O;> - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 18:16:24 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Bodiless Shedim At 5:44 PM -0500 12/3/98, Walter Milliken wrote: >>(Kyrios of War or Stone might be able to escape Limbo.) > >And possibly the Wind. They could assume their cloud-form and not have the vessel-problem, but if one somehow got sucked into Limbo, I'd say they're outta luck. But then, I'm feeling sadistic right now. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 15:57:49 -0800 From: "B.H." Subject: IN> Humans Are all human beings who aren't natural sixes, saints, undead, or soldiers doomed to having only 5 forces? This seems a bit wrong to me, because the human maximum is 10 in an attribute. I'd think that humans would be able to increase their attributes (via the various ways we do, excercise, reading, learning, that sort of thing?) and when you gain four points in a force's attributes, aren't you supposed to gain an extra force? If so, does that mean that humans can get up to 15 forces (really, really, exceptional- more than like someone who was a natural 6 who became a saint or something and was around for a long time, but still....) - -- Brian A.H. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 19:23:38 -0500 From: Setzer Gabbiani Subject: Re: IN> Game "coolness" meta-theory continues.... my take on horror is that it can be very fun if done properly. Being scared out of your wits may not be fun necessaily but dealing with death is one way to reaffirm life and i can tell you after being in an absolutely terrifying game you feel so alive. I like the attitude of changeling on this subject, terror is just as strong in terms of emotional impact as other emotions just less fun. Ben C.O.D. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 19:34:47 -0500 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Humans B.H. wrote: > > Are all human beings who aren't natural sixes, saints, undead, or > soldiers doomed to having only 5 forces? This seems a bit wrong to > me, because the human maximum is 10 in an attribute. I'd think that > humans would be able to increase their attributes (via the various > ways we do, excercise, reading, learning, that sort of thing?) and > when you gain four points in a force's attributes, aren't you supposed > to gain an extra force? If so, does that mean that humans can get up > to 15 forces (really, really, exceptional- more than like someone who > was a natural 6 who became a saint or something and was around for a > long time, but still....) By definition, the kind of person who can train themselves up an extra force possess the special qualities that let them have that force, Q.E.D. By my judgement, if a human has sufficient force of will and focus to train up their stats, they can generate a sixth force. This is not canon, btw, but I want to make it canon when the book of humans comes out. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)388-2665(COOL) MIB2300 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 18:36:09 -0600 (CST) From: Elizabeth Bartley Subject: IN> Lilith: Geasa vs. hooks On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > (Some have speculated that it's memetic influence from Lilith > herself, who will hand out great favors and gifts to any Lilim > who can get a real Geas (not just a hook) on Laurence. But hey, > we're silly...) I've always assumed that a hook traded to Lilith became a full Geas automatically; is that wrong? Elizabeth Bartley e-bartley@pobox.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 20:19:20 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilith: Geasa vs. hooks At 6:36 PM -0600 12/3/98, Elizabeth Bartley wrote: >On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> (Some have speculated that it's memetic influence from Lilith >> herself, who will hand out great favors and gifts to any Lilim >> who can get a real Geas (not just a hook) on Laurence. But hey, >> we're silly...) > >I've always assumed that a hook traded to Lilith became a full Geas >automatically; is that wrong? I think they stay hooks -- however, she can blast any mere Servitor with enough Celestial Charm Song that they get the Will of kleenex and so it might as *well* be a full Geas. But a hook on a Superior is much less likely to get invoked successfully -- even if they have Will of kleenex(R), they still have access to enough Essence of their own to resist when she tries to call it in. Nope, to get to be the very first and only Baroness of Freedom, you have to hand over a full Geas on the cute little Swordie. (It's late. I'm strange.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 17:32:09 -0800 From: "Kelly St.Clair" Subject: Re: IN> Questions >>Concept question: During my very enjoyable reading of the In Nomine >>Collection and other sources, I have come across the common assumption >>that Lilim, free and otherwise, are fascinated/intrigued/strongly >>attracted to Malakim. There is a brief mention of this in (I think) the >>Infernal Player's Guide, but it seems to have been elaborated >>considerably. What is the rationale of this? > >Malakim have Good Views from behind. Or, in slightly plainer language: "Have you anything to say before I smite thee?" "... you have a really cute butt." "......" "So, what kind of 'smiting' did you have in mind?" >>Are Lilim seriously into danger, or what? > >Actually, it depends on the Lilim -- but I wouldn't be surprised... How about the ArchDean? ;) - -------------- Kelly St.Clair kellys@efn.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 20:52:51 EST From: Gruzzle@aol.com Subject: Re:IN> Dan Smith Art >I was actually surprised (and a bit disappointed) when other artists began >to appear, so powerfully had I associated the "Smif" look with this game. > >Not to mention that sometimes his art is just better than the alternatives. >Compare "Eye of Z'ha'dum" Dominic in the main book to "My God, it's full of >stars" Dominic in _Heaven and Hell_ for example. I take it you are implying that Smith's piece in the core book does justice (no pun intended) to Dominic "just better" than Perez's depiction in the Heaven and Hell book. I have to seriously disagree with you here. Now, sometimes simpler is better; but in this case fails to prove that theory. The detail Ramon Perez puts into Dominic's cloak, wrapped hand, and the interesting floating tomes on chains gives the game a far more intriguing and professional look than Smith's candle-wax interpretation of the scene (it's all melty and blah). I do really like a few of Smith's pictures, and I feel that he pretty much has the right ideas for his pieces, but that's just the problem--most of the pictures he does seem to be just "ideas". They look like he started with a really superb idea and just left it at that... Most of his artwork looks like he got bored when he completed a sketch and just left it as that: a good idea. On the other hand, Ramon Perez delivers beautifully detailed and pleasing images every single time. But that's just *my* opinion; and who am I to say anything... I'm not the one getting paid to put my artwork into a gaming book now am I? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Dec 98 23:40 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Questions >>>Are Lilim seriously into danger, or what? >> >>Actually, it depends on the Lilim -- but I wouldn't be surprised... > >How about the ArchDean? ;) She's into being serious danger*ous*. Or maybe not so seriously.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 00:11:39 EST From: "Perry Lloyd" Subject: IN> Re: IN- Bodiless Shedim >At 4:57 PM -0500 12/3/98, Perry Lloyd wrote: >>So, I was wondering, given that (A) Shedim cannot go to Limbo and (B) >>Renegades can be Heartless (NPI), what happens to a hostless Shedite >>when he *can't* get to another Host before his time is up, since >>normally after 10 x Cele Forces in minutes he would snap back to his >>Heart... He can't go to Limbo, does he get really sleepy and "enter" >>the Marches? > >Two options: number one, which I think is in the IPG, is that the >Symphony starts tearing it apart. Number two, which I kinda favor, 'cause >it's *worse* is that he starts making Will rolls. If he succeeds, he >gets soul hits in some nasty dose. If he fails, he gets sucked into >Limbo. And the only way to leave Limbo is to form a vessel. Which >Shedim cannot do. > >Buwhahahahha. > >(Kyrios of War or Stone might be able to escape Limbo.) Good God. Well, do mean, "tearing apart" as in force by force, characteristic by characteristic or through Discord? :) Sucked into Limbo? Uhhh... that's bad. A Fate worse than destruction, an eternity alone with only your psychosis to keep you company... - -Perry, KFC Perry M. Lloyd (spook_number_six@hotmail.com) "Remember, false hope is still hope." -Dilbert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Dec 98 00:23 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Bodiless Shedim >>Two options: number one, which I think is in the IPG, is that the >>Symphony starts tearing it apart. ... > >Good God. Well, do mean, "tearing apart" as in force by force, >characteristic by characteristic or through Discord? :) The former, I believe. Sort of like being in an angelic Tether in celestial form. >Sucked into Limbo? Uhhh... that's bad. A Fate worse than destruction, >an eternity alone with only your psychosis to keep you company... Just think what it's like for a Habbalite -- no one else to punish.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 00:41:19 -0500 From: Perestroika Subject: Re: IN> Re: IN- Bodiless Shedim Walter Milliken wrote: > Just think what it's like for a Habbalite -- no one else to punish.... Ah, but the salient difference between Habbalah and Shedim are that Habbalah can form vessels... ;) - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 06:57:59 +0000 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> Questions At 14:31 03/12/98 PST, you wrote: > > >Concept question: During my very enjoyable reading of the In Nomine >Collection and other sources, I have come across the common assumption >that Lilim, free and otherwise, are fascinated/intrigued/strongly >attracted to Malakim. There is absolutely no reason why Lilim should be more attracted to Malakim than any other demon. jo ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 02:17:29 -0500 (EST) From: Kenneth Winland Subject: Re: IN> Insipring books and In Nom Time Travel Greetings! On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Peter Witney wrote: > I was thinking recently of Jean and the changes he must have made to his > operations in the twentieth century (for example many of his servitors' > attunements wouldn't have had meaning until the 20thC- telephones? circuit > boards?). We have been exploring the past a bit in IN. Rather than have it as a time travel event, we work it as background and past experience. Certain skills are given an analogous ability depending on the time period. We've had characters explore their character's experiences in the Old West, as well as the Crusades and the 16th century. It makes for a nice change of scenery, and makes for great continuity when "old" friends or enemies show up. It also shapes the flavour of characters who have "been around". Later! Ken ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 02:29:11 -0500 (EST) From: Kenneth Winland Subject: Re: IN> Game "coolness" meta-theory continues.... Greetings! On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Walter Milliken wrote: > >So why would anyone continue to purchase In Nomine supplements? By that > >logic, no one should ever buy a supplement again because they are totally > >unneccessary. If no one wants them, and the _writers_ don't even use > >them, why should there be any more? > > I didn't say I *never* used them. Though I probably haven't actually > used more than about 20% of them. And I do buy some stuff I probably > won't ever use more than once (GURPS Ice Age comes to mind...). ...Or GURPS Bunnies and Burrows! :) Every game company would want every one of their customers to buy 100% of their supplements in a perfect world. However, some support is either hit or miss. I only use about 20-30% of the material from the published IN works, but it *does* have a lot of inspirational value. Although I DID think the player guides could have been a LOT better... > >On the other hand, there are several other games, and this is hardly once > >in a decade. I can look at my bookshelves, and I know I'm a picky gamer, > >and I can see games which have something to them which made them worthy in > >some way - KULT, OTE, Cthulhu, Nephilim, Amber, Shades of Destiny/Shades > >of Nightfall, Armageddon and Witchcraft, even HOL to some extent because > >at least it has a very definite soul. I've even started looking through > >the WW: Mage stuff, just because the main sourcebook has something there. Witchraft? Mage? HOL? These have *soul*...? > >So what is the IN excuse for putting out lackluster, and occasionally > >poor, supplements? That everything in the industry sucks so it's okay? > > That not everyone thinks the same things are poor. True. And with a topic this polarized, it may be harder to publish material that everyone will agree is excellent. > >I would rather hate it or love it, instead of the all over, across the > >board blah. I would rather get excited about it. But right now, there's > >not a heck of alot to get excited about. > > For you, anyway. And I'm beginning to suspect there probably won't be. What is planned for the IN line now? What *would* excite people? Laterish! Ken ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 02:38:15 -0500 (EST) From: Kenneth Winland Subject: Re: IN> Game "coolness" meta-theory continues.... Howdy! On Wed, 2 Dec 1998, Emily Dresner wrote: > Me too that way, which struck me as really bizarre. In Nomine is > basically a religous based SuperHeros - SuperVillians game with some > serious overtones of horror. If you don't like either one, then why play > it? I don't know if I would class IN as a *superhero* game... :) It falls along the lines of White Wolf's horror line; a dark fantasy seting where you play a character that is part of a band/group/clan/club/choir, has preternatural powers, and feels that they are morally above the rest of the herd/humanity. IN follows the formula started in 1990 with WW's Vampire. Albeit with much different flavour. For obvious reasons, I think you could class in as "horror". Laterish! Ken ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 02:40:47 -0500 (EST) From: Kenneth Winland Subject: Re: IN> Game Mechanics Greetings! On Wed, 2 Dec 1998, Kevin Walsh wrote: > This is definitely a case of mileages varying widely. I don't like the > system much. It places too much emphasis on attributes rather than skills, > has little relation between degree of success/failure and skill, and the > probability of success is too obvious to players. And then there's such > bugs as the widely varying hit point system, and Charisma as a feature of > a Vessel rather than personality. Good points. I can live with 'em, but they are valid "flaws". > I'm also of the opinion that the system and setting are too intertwined to > make it worth the bother of seperating them. Yeah, I have to agree with you. I tried to run IN with FUDGE, and gave up. Now, I just sit back and enjoy In's "simplicity", now and then massaging the rules to fix the bugs. Later! Ken ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 02:46:37 -0500 (EST) From: Kenneth Winland Subject: Re: IN> Fun books... Howdy! I am unsure if these works were brought up before, but having just read them, I think that they are of some interest to IN players. >"The Club Dumas" >"The History of the Devil" The latter one is actually a play by Clive Barker (reprinted in "Incarnations"). The book "The Club Dumas" has some great ideas for NPCs, a scenario, and an unholy book. Barker's play has some nice ideas for NPCs and a little on infernal heirarchy. Later! Ken ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 02:49:28 -0500 (EST) From: Kenneth Winland Subject: Re: IN> Interior Artwork Greetings! On Wed, 2 Dec 1998, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > I'd like to see Mike Mignola, of Hellboy fame, do some IN art. His style > is also a bit cartoony, but in a more sinister way, IMO. Sounds neat! However, SJG has been somewhat loathe to spend money on interior art in the past. In the old days, it was an afterthought! Just talk to Lloyd B. about the art in GURPS Prisoner... :) Laterish! Ken ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 02:54:54 -0500 (EST) From: Kenneth Winland Subject: Re: IN> Interior Artwork Greetings! On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, Patrick O'Duffy wrote: > I've actually quite fond of Dan Smith's art. It's cartoony, which I > like, and covers a lot of different styles of characters. I agree. His range of styles suits the different facets of the game. His goofy stuff is neat, as is his more "serious" stuff. However, the art on the GM screen was poor. > I would like to see more IN art from Ramon Perez (love those proportions > and body shapes), and less from April Lee (hate those faces). But that's > just me. Perez is growing on me. Less Lee would be a good thing. Laterish! Ken ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 03:22:58 -0500 (EST) From: Kenneth Winland Subject: Re: IN> Game "coolness" meta-theory continues.... Greetings! On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, Setzer Gabbiani wrote: > my take on horror is that it can be very fun if done properly. Being > scared out of your wits may not be fun necessaily but dealing with death is > one way to reaffirm life and i can tell you after being in an absolutely > terrifying game you feel so alive. I like the attitude of changeling on > this subject, terror is just as strong in terms of emotional impact as > other emotions just less fun. You bet. The "horror" genre can run the gamut of "terror" all the way to "unsettling". Our In games have lot of unsettling, disgusting, strange, and mysterious events. For lack of a better category, we peg IN as horror. Although "mystery" may not be far off in some circumstances. I guess it is how you percieve the overall theme of IN and how you run your game. Laterish! Ken ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 05:40:35 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Law and Judgment and Morality >>>In short, most so-called victimless crimes (in the US anyway) aren't.<<< An argument could be made, however (in fact, _is_ made) that it's the illegality of these activities that produces more victims than the activities themselves. If Dominic opposes such things as prostitution and drug use, it _isn't_ because they're illegal. Dominic opposes things that are *wrong*, according to him. If he deems prostitution bad, then it's as bad in countries where it's legal as it is in the U.S. Ditto drugs and alcohol. Do you think Dominic stopped approving of alcohol when Prohibition went into effect in the United States, and labeled it kosher again when Prohibition ended? To a certain extent, of course, he will oppose law-breaking just on general principles -- but I suspect Dominic personally doesn't care whether or not some women charge for services that other women provide for free. If his angels go after a john in a country where prostitution is illegal, it's because they don't like his flaunting and denigrating the law and threatening the local social order, not because they're offended that the man paid for sex. And as an extension of that, they'd probably be a lot more inclined to go after the john who abuses prostitutes, solicits underage hookers, or who is married and thus is betraying his family (and they'd go after a john like that even if he isn't breaking the law), than to go after the nerdy single guy who calls an "escort" every month or two for a discreet session because it's the only way he can get laid. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 05:40:44 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Santa Claus >>>I don't have the write-up on Mammon's Santa Claus. What are the possible relations between him and a human St. Nicholas still working in the Lower Heavens?<<< There is no write-up on Mammon's Santa Claus. It's just been stated a couple of times that the modern version is his creation -- the jolly fat man who hands out free toys and introduces millions of children to candy-coated Greed is an image, not an actual being (though Mammon and his Servitors probably have masqueraded as St. Nick on occasion). I'd just as soon there _not_ be umpteen other versions of Santa Claus in the In Nomine universe, though one can certainly argue that there's an ethereal spirit and a St. Nicholas in Heaven, etc. etc. But here is a great opportunity to actually take a canon stand and squeeze the whole Santa Claus issue for satire and/or social commentary -- something a lot of people say they want to see more of in In Nomine. That gets diluted if every time a famous institution or cultural icon gets named as angelically or diabolically influenced, it then has to be watered down by pointing out that there are actually numerous versions inspired by various Archangels and Demon Princes... - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 05:40:39 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Santa Claus >>>What about the "be good, you get stuff; be bad, you get a lump of coal" stuff? (Though I'm not sure that's Trade either...)<<< (a) Good marketing by Mammon -- add a veneer of a morality lesson and Santa isn't as obvious an appeal to naked greed. (b) A successful attempt by Judgment to inject some kind of moral lesson into the Santa Claus myth; one that probably annoyed Mammon a bit, but considering that the part about coal is now almost universally disregarded - -- how many cheery, heartwarming Santa Claus movies and cartoons have you seen where he didn't actually give toys to _everyone_, however undeserving? - -- it didn't take that well. (c) Something that got inserted into the myth somewhere along the way by humans, probably parents who added their own morality lesson. As above, Mammon probably wasn't pleased by the innovation, but it hasn't made much difference. - -David ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1035 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.