From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Dec 7 19:25:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA05425 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 19:25:33 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id TAA26499 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 19:01:39 -0600 Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 19:01:39 -0600 Message-Id: <199812080101.TAA26499@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1041 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, December 7 1998 Volume 01 : Number 1041 In this digest: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1040 IN> Re: Atheists in IN and Oops! Re: IN> Re: Atheists in IN and Oops! Re: IN> Superior's Hearts Re: IN> Changing times Re: IN> Law and Judgment and Morality Re: IN> Law and Judgment and Morality Re: IN> Lilim and Malakim IN> Available games Re: IN> No supermodels ever came out of Limbo. IN> Disturbance\Causation Re: IN> Politics and stuff IN> Another Idea for the Endless in In Nomine Re: IN> Politics and stuff Re: IN> Politics and stuff Re: IN> Stripmining comics for ideas Re: IN> Politics and stuff IN> Law and Judgment and Morality Re: IN> Lilim and Malakim Re: IN> Politics and stuff Re: IN> Politics and stuff Re: IN> Lilim and Malakim Re: IN> Law and Judgment and Morality Re: IN> No supermodels ever came out of Limbo. Re: IN> Somebody explain these guys to me, please!! Re: IN> Tsayadim Re: IN> Somebody explain these guys to me, please!! Re: IN> Politics and stuff Re: IN> Bodiless Shedim ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 12:59:47 -0700 (MST) From: John Coughlin Subject: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #1040 Hello....I hate to do this as I hate people such as myself who do, but could someone email me and let me know how to remove myself from the list as I am moving...thanks so much. Check out Khepri Comics at http://www.khepri.com!!! Good Readin' at Good Prices!! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 15:37:37 -0500 From: Stacy Stroud Subject: IN> Re: Atheists in IN and Oops! Chris Crowe wrote: >Actually, that should say 'Nowhere in Canon does it say,' because it is >a fact of Christian religion that anyone who is not baptised cannot go >to Heaven regardless of their actions on Earth. It is a fact of *some* flavors of the Christian religion, notably the Catholic Church in the time of Dante and a few small Protestant groups today. (The Baptists, despite their name, do not fit into this category; while they do insist on adult baptism by immersion as an act of obedience, they do not view the physical act of baptism as an element in salvation, as that would veer too close to salvation by works.) Read _Dante's Inferno_ >(Actually, read the whole _Divine Comedy_), it's got references to some >of the souls who are in Hell because they were born before baptism. Note that those souls are specifically in Limbo, the highest tier of Hell, where the only pain is the lack of supernatural union with God. Virgil, Dante's guide through Hell and Purgatory, is one of these "virtuous pagans." Just FYI, the Catholic Church recognizes modes of baptism that do not require the actual act, such as "baptism of blood" (martyrdom prior to actual baptism) and "baptism of desire" (wanting to be baptized even though it is impossible to complete the actual rite). Modern Catholic thought extends the latter to people who *would* want baptism if they knew what it was and what it meant, which nicely takes care of those virtuous pagans without having to invoke the Limbo idea. (The unbaptized infants who were the other inhabitants of Limbo are taken care of by the similar principle that anyone who is not capable of placing an obstacle in the way of God's grace will be saved.) I read recently on a newsgroup (in a discussion of Christian missionary characters in SF RPGs) that the Orthodox Church has even more variants on the baptismal rite, including baptism with sand or air if water is not available. The point being that those churches which really do believe that baptism is absolutely necessary to salvation generally have made some provision so that a sincere seeker after Truth will not be damned on a technicality. >In Canon I would say that the big G doesn't care if you've had water and >oil poured on your head while some priest muttered prayers, so long as >you've lived a decent life. Actually, in canon, even the generically decent life doesn't matter as much as whether you've achieved your Destiny. Exactly what, short of that, can get one into Heaven is left deliberately vague in the IN material. (IMC, aiming for one's Destiny/Fate and being stopped only by outside forces generally gets you to the appropriate place, though you might be reincarnated if some permutation on your particular Destiny/Fate *had* to be achieved for the sake of the universe; apathy in the face of Destiny and Fate gets you reincarnated or recycled.) Stacy Stroud sstroud@uky.campus.mci.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 15:53:41 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Re: Atheists in IN and Oops! Stacy Stroud wrote: > I read recently on a newsgroup (in a discussion of Christian > missionary characters in SF RPGs) that the Orthodox Church has > even more variants on the baptismal rite, including baptism with > sand or air if water is not available. I thought that was a Catholic variation too: if you want to get baptized, all that's *really* necessary for the physical act is someone, anyone, to pour something, anything, on you with the intent of conferring Christianity. And, as you remarked, even the physical act is not strictly necessary. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 09:08:07 GMT+10 From: "Leath Sheales" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: Re: IN> Superior's Hearts Kevin wrote: > Alaemon: I think he's Hellborn, and a former Servitor of Secrets. Alaemon was a Mercurian of Revelation (Litheroy) who fell. > Kronos: Other Or possibly a fallen God. Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Dec 98 16:59 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Changing times >Personally I see all the superiors, especially Jean, Vapula & Eli, changing >their attunements, rites etc every so often to "keep up with the times". Certainly Jean -- his current ones are partly tied to late 20th century. Though I suspect the general concepts behind his Choir attunements stay much the same over the ages. I'm not sure Vapula's been a Prince long enough to need to, though the outward appearance of the artifacts he gives out has probably changed. And Eli's are pretty generally useful at any time, though I'm sure he gets creative with attunements.... (I'd be more inclined to think Eli's change with circumstances or whim, than with time.) >The only execption to this of course is David, who as soon as he's come >round to the idea of changing, the change will probably become irelevant. Stone is Stone is Stone -- it hasn't changed much for eons.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Dec 98 17:18 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Law and Judgment and Morality >The issue of what Superiors think of homosexuality, Dominic in >particular, was argued once before on the list. Sure was, to an even greater degree. >The concensus, or the last word, insofar as there was any, >appeared to be that it was not, in general, a huge issue for >any of them. Except possibly for Eli, in the sense that he is pro-procreation, and homosexuality might detract from that. But otherwise he wouldn't care, either. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Dec 98 17:27 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Law and Judgment and Morality >You Know that X action is wrong, because you have resonated, considered, >and generally thought the matter to death for millenia. If you come across >it one more time, you don't have to resonate again, but you do anyway, and >it takes you 0.01 seconds and you get the same answer as before. This presumes that Seraphim can get the whole Truth on matters that may be clear only to God. (I.e., if Dominic could do this, so could Michael, and it seems unlikely that they could disagree as strongly as they do. Likewise, it seems unlikely that Seraphim could fall to Lucifer's arguments if they could simply connect to God with their resonance and say, "Hey, it it True that humans should have free will?") My take is that opinion isn't subject to the Seraph resonance, unless it's an opinion about something that can ultimately be proven factually. This is (somewhat weakly) supported in canon, in some discussions on limiting the Seraph resonance. (I think this is in the APG, though I don't recall precisely.) So Dominic and Michael can both hold opinions that their resonance can't verify, and disagree on them. So Dominic isn't, by definition, right, simply because he's a Seraph. Frankly, I think the notion that Seraphim could get the whole Truth on any ethical/moral question would make the whole game background unplayable. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Dec 98 17:41 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Malakim >> Not only that, but they fit into the hierarchy of the Choirs and the >> Bands in the same "slot" -- Lilim appear where the opposite of the > i really must look at this, but i had thought the listing was >in alphabetical order. Nope, they're not. >> Malakim should be, and vice-versa. This was a topic of much speculation >> on this list a long while back. (Remember that the order of listing of > pity i wasn't here for that... All that stuff is in the archive on the SJGames web/FTP site. I don't have the date range, but I'd guess it was in the summer of 1997. > so does anyone want to recap >what the significance of the listings of Choirs and Bands is? i know the >Choirs are supposedly listed from "most heavenly" to "most earthly." >shall i presume the Bands progress from "most hellish" to "most earthly"? That's it. The Bands are the dark reflections of the corresponding Choirs, the Balseraphs are the worst of the demons (at least according to the Malakite resonance), just as the Seraphim are supposed to be the highest among the angels. And it grades inward from there, toward humanity sort of in the middle. Also, there are various worldview problems that are symmetrical within either side: the Seraphim and Mercurians don't see each other's viewpoints well, nor do Balseraphs/Impudites, Cherubim/Kyriotates, etc. With the one in the center having no "opposite" within its side: Elohim get along with everyone, and vice versa, while Habbalah don't get along with anyone (except their own Band), and no one likes them, either. >if that's so, why wouldn't Lilim be last (and thus closest to 'human')? >(or are they and i'm just forgetting...? No, the Mercurian/Impudite pairing is actually the closest to humans on each side. (Well, actually the Grigori/Nephalim may occupy that position, but they're not in the main part of the game.) Lilim are a couple notches away from the human perspective, just as Malakim are. Why Lilim are where they are on the celestial "non-human/human" scale is unknown to me, and as far as I know, there's no canon answer. They certainly look to be at least as human as Impudites, and more so than Shedim. No matter what way you look at them, Lilim, like their mother, are anomalies. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 14:47:11 PST From: "Janet Anderson" Subject: IN> Available games I am currently not involved in a regular *In Nomine* campaign and would like to join one. (I live in Princeton, New Jersey and prefer angels to demons.) Also, I keep reading about interesting e-mail campaigns on people's home pages in *In Nomine* links, and would very much like to join one of those. How do I start? Janet Anderson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Dec 98 17:55 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> No supermodels ever came out of Limbo. > Problem: There are no rules for giving a vessel formed >in Limbo Charisma of any sort. Presumably you can design your vessel to look >like whatever you want, since it's not being given to you by a superior. Why >can't you form it into a pleasing (i.e. sexy) shape? Muffy is not the sort of >girl who would drive around in a Ford Pinto when a cherry-red Porsche was >available. If she had to leave Limbo in a plain-jane vessel then Oh-my-GAWD! >she would just DIE!!! What kind of rules do you people generally use for this? I have a house rule that you need to have some form of visual artistic skill to shape a vessel's appearance correctly. Otherwise you just get "generic human norm" (or whatever sort of vessel you're trying for). I.e., you sort of tap into the general theme in the Symphony that represents the target species, and you don't need anything special for that. If you want fine details, you have to be able to sort out the individual "notes" you want and select for them. This doesn't address the character point issue, of course. But then, vessels from Limbo are "free" anyway. You might want to charge extra Essence to select a particular appearance, or require the character to stay a few weeks longer to refine it. Of course, this means that an *ugly* vessel takes longer, too. You could fix this by assuming that a hastily-made vessel is more likely to be ugly, since you didn't really get it *quite* right before instantiating it. Note that this reasoning could explain why a character in Limbo doesn't choose a vessel that's a clone of Bill Clinton, or Madonna, or whoever -- (a) they can't get the visualization down to a perfect level of detail, and (b) if they could, the person would have died. Hmmm... maybe this explains all the Elvis sightings -- maybe he's a "default" type for humans.... >On a side note: it always bugged and confused me that Charisma was a function >of the vessel and not the personality of the celestial involved. I think it was a rather bad choice for a term attached to a more generic game mechanic (good reaction modifiers) that didn't otherwise have a nice short name. I certainly wouldn't have picked it. It also covers things that are vessel-specific (appearance, good/bad voice, etc.) and not (attitude/behavior). It may be an example of over-simplification of game mechanics, at least for those of us who are pickier about such things. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 22:46:06 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: IN> Disturbance\Causation This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0112_01BE2233.60704700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Causation If causing a disturbance to the symphony is caused by changing the way = things were "supposed to be", then why doesn't saving someone's life = cause as much disturbance to the symphony as killing someone. Also what = exactly does it mean to cause some thing to happen? If A Cabbalite of = Belial plugged 30 rounds of uzi fire into a human sure that's killing a = human. But then again surely if a Lilim calls in a Geas to get someone = to kill a human that Lilim has disrupted the natural course of the = symphony, and in effect has killed the human so surely that would cause = disturbance. And if that causes disturbance then does ordering your (you = being a Celestial) soldier to plant a bomb in a mall since although the = soldier placed the bomb you ordered them to do it? If so doesn=92t that = make soldiers lose their main advantage. - ------=_NextPart_000_0112_01BE2233.60704700 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Causation

If causing a disturbance to the symphony is caused by = changing=20 the way things were "supposed to be", then why doesn't saving=20 someone's life cause as much disturbance to the symphony as killing = someone.=20 Also what exactly does it mean to cause some thing to happen? If = A=20 Cabbalite of Belial plugged 30 rounds of uzi fire into a human sure = that's=20 killing a human. But then again surely if a Lilim calls in a Geas to get = someone=20 to kill a human that Lilim has disrupted the natural course of the = symphony, and=20 in effect has killed the human so surely that would cause disturbance. = And if=20 that causes disturbance then does ordering your (you being a Celestial) = soldier=20 to plant a bomb in a mall since although the soldier placed the bomb you = ordered=20 them to do it? If so doesn’t that make soldiers lose their main=20 advantage.

 

- ------=_NextPart_000_0112_01BE2233.60704700-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Dec 98 18:17 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Politics and stuff > I also heard Eli fell. What product did this >happen in? Nope. Didn't happen. Dominic might *think* he's Falling, or nearly so, but that's it as far as canon goes, to the best of my knowledge. > I liked Eli, and I found it ironic that he seemed the most >Christ-like IMO. He's popular, and I doubt it would go over well for him to Fall in canon. Doesn't say it can't happen, but I wouldn't bet on it. (This is personal opinion, BTW -- I don't know anything specific.) >One last question, since we see on occasional Archangel fall, how about >seeing a Demon Prince redeem. Well, so far no AA has Fallen in canon (in current-time -- some Fell in historic times, though). I think the problem with DPs redeeming is that they're not really symmetrical operations. The kind of person who climbs to the top of the heap in Hell isn't the sort who's exactly good redemption material.... On the other hand, AAs can fall by making bad choices -- they're in the situation where they pretty much need to be right all the time, and they aren't perfect. A bad enough mistake can crack them. > I think Lilith should be just about primed >for redemption, personally. Leaving Hell, *maybe*. Redemption? I doubt it. Even though I'm an advocate of the "greyer Lilith" than the "dark Lilith" model, she's really still too self-centered to be good redemption material. Maybe in another millenium or so.... > and I can easily see >Archangel Lilith. Well, there's the problem that she's a human, and the Seraphim Council seems to be a bit on the conservative side. She might be accepted as a Saint, but I can't see her getting a Word, much less Superior status, on the Heavenly side. (On the other hand, there's the "third avatar theory" which I cooked up for my campaign, and Elizabeth wrote up and posted here -- I think it's on the INC.) > Anybody else? Nybbas is my best candidate for redemption among the DPs, with Andre a distant second, and Kobal a dark horse. They're the most concerned with humans (Impudites all), and possibly the most subject to influence. They're also all Words that have dangerous grey areas that fringe on the other side. Nybbas is most vulnerable through possibly going overboard "creatively" (i.e., cross-contamination from Eli), and he's also the youngest major DP, and probably the least set in his ways. That's not to say he's a *good* candidate, just the most likely of the lot, in my opinion. Valefor is another outside possibility, but people are already reviving the Janus/Valefor thread, so I won't go there myself.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 17:18:58 -0600 (CST) From: Benjamin Acosta Subject: IN> Another Idea for the Endless in In Nomine How about making the Endless aspects of God made manifest, sort of like ethereal versions of Yves and Kronos. They would be equal or better than a Superior (except for Yves and Kronos, of course), but less powerful than Lucifer or the Seraphim Council. It's a slight deviation from how they are portrayed in Sandman, but it makes them fit into the game a little better, and sort of matches the respective power levels they exhibited when compared to demons and angels in the comic. Ben Angel of Neat Ideas ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Dec 98 18:21 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Politics and stuff >In the picture of Nybbas he has images of Kobal, Saminga and some other >demon princes and Eli. I have wondered ever since i saw this what the >significance of this inclusion was. I figured that it was a hook for >something to come later. that's where i think the idea came from. I believe Eli is grouped with some of Nybbas' *enemies*, so this isn't as clear-cut as it first appears to be. This picture has been the subject of much speculation here. Just to add some fuel to the fire, I'll note that I asked Smif about this picture once during a chat on the Pyramid chat site (the logs should be available to Pyramid subscribers). As I recall, he said that the small monitors were blank when he sent the picture in to SJGames -- the insert pictures were added during final layout of the book at SJGames. So *he* didn't know what the significance was. I guess the Illuminati keep their secrets.... - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Dec 98 18:33 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> Politics and stuff >Frankly, I'd rather see Lilith find a way to keep her Word while >renouncing her status as a Demon Prince, proceding to skate on the edge of >the war and trading with both sides. IMO, she's been *too* obviously >lightened to be much fun to play with the idea of Redemption. Have a look on the INC at: http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/seeds/third_avatar.html which touches on exactly these issues (though sometimes a little indirectly). - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 23:05:04 +0000 (GMT) From: Rhodri James Subject: Re: IN> Stripmining comics for ideas In article <366A35D2.65C4B298@thehub.com.au>, Patrick O'Duffy wrote: > G'day. > The recent conversation about IN's 'genre' (horror vs supers) struck > a cord. Like I said there, I don't see it as being either. However, I > am a big horror fan, and an even bigger comics fanboy... so I'm > reluctant to discount them as good sources for IN fun. > The problem with supers as a genre (at least as relates to IN) is > that it tends to be very overt. Costumes, operating in the open, big > fights in Grand Central Station etc. It's hard to make that gel with > the covert nature of the War in IN. > However, that's not to say that you can't get inspiration from > comics - or even better, blatantly steal ideas and make them your own. > The thing to do is not lift the character/idea/whatever and try to warp > canon to fit it - instead, mutilate the idea until it fits into canon > easily (lots of reduntant organs on those ideas. They'll never miss the > ear I had to cut off). What you get might not suit every campaign, but > it should suit some - and any source of ideas is a good one for an > ongoing campaign (not that I run ongoing campaigns anymore, but I still > have vague memories of what to do with them). There are a few ways of fitting Supers into IN, ranging from celestial or ethereal intereference through to sorcerors or soldiers getting above themselves. But I did have an idea at one point that has a few interesting consequences. All entirely non-canon, of course :-) Imagine a bunch of celestials coming across someone who can fly. Sure, they think, this is just some being with the Song of Motion, we'll track him and nail him if he's a demon, or find out who he's working for if he's a soldier. All well and good, they find that Fred the Flyer doesn't make a disturbance, so he has to be human, but a thorough investigation throws up no demonic connections. He also seems to be very good at this song -- no one has yet caught the disturbance when he casts it, and it lasts and awfully long time. More worryingly, he gives angels of Blandine a very odd feeling.... People have always dreamed of being better than they are. This century, one of the forms that dream has taken has been to have superpowers, to be able to fly like a bird, run like the wind or blast your enemies. Now imagine that certain people, for some unknown reason, find their dreams wrapping around themselves and becoming real. Perhaps Beleth and Blandine know how it's being done, or perhaps it is a mystery even to them. Perhaps Kobal is laughing his socks off as God's joke on heaven plays out, as the humans step into new levels of power. Whatever the reason, impossible things are happening, and it doesn't take long before the happeners are donning masks and capes and playing out the spandex dreams in full. One consequence of this is that the War will hot up a little. As the number of superhuman battles increases, the fallout of the supernatural battles will become less unusual. More force can be used to crush the Enemy without revealing the presence of Heaven and Hell, and the odd celestial caught using resonances or songs can claim to be a super in extremis. I'm sure neither Michael nor Baal will miss the implications for tactics -- and I'm sure that both of them will see Armageddon looming on the horizon. - -- Rhodri James *-* Wildebeeste herder to the masses If you don't know who I work for, you can't misattribute my words to them ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 18:50:24 EST From: Samovar3@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Politics and stuff >In the picture of Nybbas he has images of Kobal, Saminga and some other >demon princes and Eli. I have wondered ever since i saw this what the >significance of this inclusion was. I figured that it was a hook for >something to come later. that's where i think the idea came from. I think that there's also some information in Lilith's expanded write-up in Fall of the Malakim that could lead people to believe that Eli's falling. Basically, the gist of it was that one of Lilith's current projects was collecting information on Eli. As her other projects are both Demon Princes, there may be the hinting of some diabolic influence on Eli, though the link is tenuous. Lilith's write-up also gave me a funny/demented idea that Eli left Heaven because he made the mistake of promising Lilith the Moon. So, he had to leave to get it for her. Of course, those sevitors of Kobal could just be messing with my mind... S. Flanigan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 19:16:31 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Law and Judgment and Morality >>>However, I think that part of Dominic's role in the game is to have strict beliefs that are not shared by the 'flakier' archangels (including, in this case, Michael :-) So he may well rule that all sorts of funny things are wrong, possibly including drugs, prostitution, homosexuality, heretical thinking, the Spice Girls, or for all I know sausages.<<< Naturally, but exactly what he rules is wrong depends in large part on your take on the game. In a satirical IN campaign, Dominic declaring sausages sinful could be highly amusing. However, in a "serious" IN campaign, it's unlikely he would find such things as processed meats or sexual orientation in itself worthy of adjudication by Judgment. >>>If any Archangel is going to be the kind of 'knee-jerk reactionary' that Mr. Edelstein so dislikes, it is Dominic, because he Knows He Is Right.<<< The difference between him and most knee-jerk reactionaries being that he probably IS Right about 99% of the time. >>>IMC, Dominic is reasonably sensible, but he still doesn't share all my personal opinions, and has different ideas from me about justice. In short, don't make all your archangels agree with you personally, because your players *will* notice.<<< Oh, hardly any of the Archangels share my personal opinions. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 11:38:30 GMT+10 From: "Leath Sheales" <938269@wrpc.riv.csu.edu.au> Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Malakim Walter wrote: > That's it. The Bands are the dark reflections of the corresponding > Choirs, the Balseraphs are the worst of the demons (at least according > to the Malakite resonance), just as the Seraphim are supposed to be the > highest among the angels. And it grades inward from there, toward > humanity sort of in the middle. I'd disagree with this a little. In general, the bands are listed from least human (Balseraphs) to most human (Impudites), but Shedim and Lilim don't really fit the mold. Shedim are the most inhuman monsters around (they HAVE to corrupt) and Lilim have more potential to be human-like than any other Band (they are the offspring of a *special* human, after all). The Choirs I agree with, but I think the bands are more listed in correspondance with the Choirs, so things get a little muddled. > Why Lilim are where they are on the celestial "non-human/human" scale is > unknown to me, and as far as I know, there's no canon answer. They > certainly look to be at least as human as Impudites, and more so than > Shedim. No matter what way you look at them, Lilim, like their mother, > are anomalies. Since their mother is human (sort of) I tend to see Lilim as potentially the 'most human' demons (see above). Leath. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 18:33:14 -0600 From: "James Bearse" Subject: Re: IN> Politics and stuff > From: Walter Milliken > Nybbas is my best candidate for redemption among the DPs, with Andre a > distant second, and Kobal a dark horse. They're the most concerned with > humans (Impudites all), and possibly the most subject to influence. > They're also all Words that have dangerous grey areas that fringe on the > other side. > Naw, everyone knows Kobal is the most likely to redeem. Didn't you read about God's Ultimate Cosmic Punch Line in the Dark Victory material? Wishing he got the joke, Savage Wombat ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 16:55:56 -0800 From: Greg Jensen Subject: Re: IN> Politics and stuff At 01:22 AM 12/7/98 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 12/6/98 11:22:32 PM Central Standard Time, >gjensen@mail.wsu.edu writes: > >> I also heard Eli fell. What product did this >> happen in? >Whaat? Eli did not fall! Not on my watch, Chuckles! I didn't even hear that as >a rumor, let alone canon. Where exactly did you hear that, pray tell? I coulda sworn I heard someone on the list say it. Maybe I'm hallucinating. Anyway, I'm glad to hear Eli is still an Archangel. Greg Jensen http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~gjensen/gregpage.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 17:04:47 -0800 From: "B.H." Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Malakim Walter Milliken wrote: > Why Lilim are where they are on the celestial "non-human/human" scale is > unknown to me, and as far as I know, there's no canon answer. They > certainly look to be at least as human as Impudites, and more so than > Shedim. No matter what way you look at them, Lilim, like their mother, > are anomalies. > > ---Walter (all of this is just my opinion, of course) First off... They're not that human. Most humans have a sheep/collective mentality that mixes WITH the individualism, not clashes with it. "I wanna be unique just like everybody else!" This is one of our 'advantages' over Angels and Demons, we're the balance. Second of all, I hope you don't mean human in appearance; that's not what the scale is about, I think. Third...Well, really, a part of first, but it showed up now in my brain. ^_^. See, the lilim are in the right position, human wise. They aren't as human as the Impudites. Their mother may have been a proto-human, but she's changed a lot, and Lilim never were. They may have been created like her, but they were also created as demons- to give her children an extra oomph, as it were. The Impudites, of course, are all demon, but they resonate with the heart and soul of humanity, as do Mercurians. Kyrotates and Shedim (whom, of course, can resonate with animals and whatnot but we're talking close to humanity here.. ^_^) resonate with the minds of humanity. Lilim and Malakim are on 'just the edge'- once you get beyond you're talking about people who resonate with more and more 'ideal forms' sorts of things- emotions in the Elohite/Habbalah, motion in the Olfanim/Calabim (calabim are motion halted), Devotion in the Cherubim/Djinn, and Truth (Symphonic vs. Individual) in the Seraphim/Balseraphim. Back to the Lilim and the Malakim. If you think about it this IS the perfect pair. Honor is about choice, as is Freedom. Honor is choosing to submit some of your Freedom to the greater whole. Total Freedom is about not caring about the greater whole, and just choosing to choose that which you wish. Bright Lilim don't change that much because Freedom can be just as good as bad- it's a matter of choice. Malakim don't fall because no matter how twisted or messed up Honor becomes, it remains a sacrifice of freedom for SOME greater whole. They can get discordant and dissonant, as Honor can be twisted, but they never fall all the way- they will literally be destroyed first. I don't think that the basic core of any Angel/Demon pair ever changes- just the outlook. For the Malakim to fall, to become completely selfish, would require their core to change- which they can't do. Boy, do I blather on, huh? Anyway... The reason for the Geas thing (for lilim) is that when you choose, you give up the freedom of taking one of those choices. Even non-action is a choice- the choice to give up the freedom of action. The Lilim can, because they understand this (resonate with it), use it to their advantage. This brings up an interesting possibility. Malakim can't fall... but could one become hound by it's honor to fight for Hell? If, somehow, it lost it's base 2 Oaths and had them replaced by some duty to Hell? Not a Fallen Malakim- but a Dark Malakim. - -- Brian A.H. "I am Don Arturo de Los Angeles. I am the greatest reader of all time. I have read over a million books in my lifetime, and their pages flow through my mind like summer days..." Phoenix Clan Purifier*Gaijin*Shugenja*ABC Geeky Shugenja Man*Totoroan L5R(1.1) PX+ S(LA) G++ R Y+ C+ E+ M-- T-- D++ K U+++ L5R(R1.3) GP++ (PR+++ CC++) RP+ GT:! P+ PX/LN+ S++ G+++ R Y+ C++ CG++ U+++ J---- ABC(1.0) PX/ABC++(ic, anyways. =)) S(LA) Y+ A++ D++ BO/OC!N!++++(nosebleed) P+++ U++ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 19:19:48 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Law and Judgment and Morality At 9:30 AM +0100 12/5/98, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: >On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Greg Jensen wrote: > >> At 06:26 AM 12/4/98 -0800, you wrote: >> >> >*shakes head* No. That nerdy single guy is contributing to the >> >destruction of another human being. She is, quite frankly, no matter >> >how good in bed she is, not selling her services, her knowledge, or >> >her capability. She's selling her body on an intimate basis. >> >> Same with that janitor, that burger-flipper, that gas station attendant, etc. > >Not quite. The janitor et al are selling the work their bodies perform, >which isn't the same thing. Massage? (And I don't mean the euphamistic kind.) Gynocologists? The cute guy who posed nude for the drawing class? Hairdressers? (And if you don't think I enjoy the 'getting the hair washed' scalp massage...) Frankly, I could see a society where friendly sex was a performance art. It's not *this* one, but I could barely grasp at it. Sex doesn't have to be dirty, sex-for-pay doesn't have to be abuse. (Which says nothing about how it *is* in the current day.) Now, to drag the topic kicking and screaming back to IN -- think about Creationers. Consensual sex is a Rite, a joy, a sacrament. It's sharing of pleasure, giving and receiving the gift of your lover. Love made motion. Now, why should an artist of the act of sex not get paid for this, like a masseuse, a dancer, or a painter? (According to Creationers, at least.) Now, Dominic (IMC) disapproves of all this sex-stuff because sex can lead to Lust and Lust leads to Falling, and we all know what he thinks about angels Falling. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 19:08:14 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> No supermodels ever came out of Limbo. At 4:22 AM -0500 12/6/98, BillionSix@aol.com wrote: >[...] Problem: There are no rules for giving a vessel formed >in Limbo Charisma of any sort. Okay, you're already not paying points for the vessel, so... The GM can say, "Okay, you can make your old vessel, no problem. You know that vessel, you lived in it. Now, you wanna make some changes, make an Artistry/Int/whatevertheGMthinksisright roll..." - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 19:09:56 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Somebody explain these guys to me, please!! At 4:32 AM -0500 12/6/98, BillionSix@aol.com wrote: >But they're not allowed to emotionally harm the objects of they're >attunement. Check the blessed errata. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 19:12:26 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Tsayadim At 9:53 AM -0700 12/6/98, Gareth Wood wrote: >They (the Tsayadim) are mentioned briefly in The Final Trumpet. No >description is provided of their forms, abilities, etc. Will they be >described in a future book? Maybe. They're not a Choir, though. Tsayadim is a name like "Outcast" or "Renegade." They're the ones who still follow Uriel, though he got recalled. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 19:21:29 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Somebody explain these guys to me, please!! At 11:31 PM -0500 12/6/98, Casca wrote: >On Sun, 6 Dec 1998, Pee Kitty wrote: >I hasten to add that the Shedim should be left to Maya, who is herself >the very incarnation of oozing evil. ;) In the best possible way! - --Beth, being ever so slightly goofy. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 19:22:59 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Politics and stuff At 9:17 PM -0800 12/6/98, Greg Jensen wrote: > I also heard Eli fell. What product did this >happen in? I liked Eli, and I found it ironic that he seemed the most >Christ-like IMO. Someone else's campaign. He hasn't Fallen in canon. Mind, if you want to tack a "yet" onto that, you'll be thinking the same thing Dominic is... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 19:38:30 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Bodiless Shedim At 9:45 AM +0000 12/7/98, Kevin Walsh wrote: >On Thu, Dec 03, 1998 at 06:16:24PM -0500, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >> They could assume their cloud-form and not have the vessel-problem, >> but if one somehow got sucked into Limbo, I'd say they're outta luck. >> >> But then, I'm feeling sadistic right now. >> >Indeed. I believe in the Limbo write-up it says you have to form a new >Vessel to get out, so it doesn't matter if you have ten pre-existing >vessels already, you still have to make one. Bingo. >(I just >had a vision of a Balseraph of the Game convincing a Renegade Shedite that >going to Limbo was a Good Thing.) Hee hee hee hee. Ah, but they don't get to make An Example out of the Shedite that way. Still, that's a nice one. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1041 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.