From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Dec 15 11:44:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA00118 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:44:50 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id KAA20615 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:35:21 -0600 Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:35:21 -0600 Message-Id: <199812151635.KAA20615@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1054 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, December 15 1998 Volume 01 : Number 1054 In this digest: IN> Absolute Truth (was Absolute Morality) Re: IN> The Limbo Heresy Re: IN> The Limbo Heresy Re: IN> The Limbo Heresy Re: IN> Habbalah (Re: seneschal query) Re: IN> Sorcery Question Re: IN> The Limbo Heresy Re: IN> The Limbo Heresy Re: IN> The Limbo Heresy Re: IN> seneschal query IN> Absolute Morality Re: IN> Absolute Morality Habbalah (was re: IN> seneschal query) Re: IN> Discord: Noisy Re: Habbalah (was re: IN> seneschal query) Re: IN> Absolute Truth (was Absolute Morality) Re: Habbalah (was re: IN> seneschal query) Re: IN> The Limbo Heresy Re: IN> Habbalah (Re: seneschal query) Re: IN> Absolute Morality IN> Re: The Limbo Heresy ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 17:58:30 PST From: "David Streeter" Subject: IN> Absolute Truth (was Absolute Morality) For there to be Absolute Morality, first there must be absolute Truth (ie. "God exists" or "Killing defenseless children is wrong"). Here's my proof for Absolute Truth: "Absolute Truth must exist, since if Absolute Truth did not exist, its non-existence would be an Absolute Truth. That is, the statement 'There is Absolute Truth' proves itself. It's existence is axiomatic. It is the fundamental absolute truth. It may also be the ONLY absolute truth, but if there is one, it is certainly possible that there are others." A consequence of the existence of Absolute Truth is the existence of Absolute Untruth: "The statement 'There is no Absolute Truth' proves the existence of Absolute Untruth, since it can never be true" If you wanted to adapt this to In Nomine, God is the first statement ("There is Absolute Truth"), Lucifer is the second ("There is no Absolute Truth"). Yves describes God as "discovering parts of himself". Perhaps this is the discovery of other absolute truths. I would see the Upper Heavens as containing all the absolute truths, which is why they are out of reach of the diabolicals (since they are absolute truths, they cannot ever be disproven). The Angels (and their words) represent truths not yet absolute. That is why Seraphim are the holiest - their word is Truth. A lot of IN things can be explained using this interpretation. Uriel ascending to Heaven? He proved that the existence of Purity is an absolute truth - by starting to kill off the ethereals, he proved that "the void is pure". Kobal's big joke is that neither side can win, since the two basic truths of the universe are that there is God and the Devil. Very "Good Omens", eh? SurturZ Habbalite of Factions, Angel of Constructive Criticism ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 18:23:23 -0800 From: "Kelly St.Clair" Subject: Re: IN> The Limbo Heresy On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Casca wrote: > So then I had the idea, 'What if I give the list a vague but cool name > for a story seed, and then see what happens?' I decided to go with it. > > Call it a challenge if you like. The creativity on this list is > wonderfully diverse, and I'd like to see what kind of bizarre and diverse > ideas will result from the title. Okay, here's my version, based on a comment someone made on the list a few weeks back. It's been hypothesized that Limbo is the original state of the universe, before God's Creation... and that God may have gotten His power by just sitting there for a timeless interval, accumulating enough Essence to become, well, God. What if someone else - or a group of someone elses - decided to hang out there for a fraction of eternity and see if they could do the same thing? Celestials? Or even mortals? Consider the Tower of Babel. God was sincerely concerned that "if they can do this thing, they shall be like unto Gods; let us therefore go down and confuse their tongues." A tether to Limbo, constructed by mortals? (You did ask for bizarre and diverse ideas...) - -------------- Kelly St.Clair kellys@efn.org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 20:53:55 -0600 From: "James Bearse" Subject: Re: IN> The Limbo Heresy And God Spake, saying "I did not have sex with that woman!" ... Wait, no, that's the bimbo heresy... - ---------- > From: Casca > To: In Nomine > Subject: IN> The Limbo Heresy > Date: Monday, December 14, 1998 2:32 PM > > > Once upon a time, I had a really cool idea. It was so cool, in fact, that > it threatened to reshape the way folks perceive the IN universe. > Unfortunately, I didn't have the time to put this uber-idea to paper, so > I left a note to myself as a reminder to get back to it later. > > I found that paper yesterday. Problem is, I have no idea what my cool > idea was. All I have is a neat and onimous-sounding title: Limbo Heresy. > > So then I had the idea, 'What if I give the list a vague but cool name > for a story seed, and then see what happens?' I decided to go with it. > > Call it a challenge if you like. The creativity on this list is > wonderfully diverse, and I'd like to see what kind of bizarre and diverse > ideas will result from the title. > > Yes, I plan to submit my own, after I've thought about it some. Assuming > someone else doesn't do a better job of it. :) > > > -- Casca, Seraph of Archives > (bertishg@db.erau.edu) > > "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of > His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: > with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their > feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the > doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." > -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 21:01:16 -0600 From: "James Bearse" Subject: Re: IN> The Limbo Heresy > From: Kelly St.Clair > It's been hypothesized that Limbo is the original state of the universe, > before God's Creation... and that God may have gotten His power by just > sitting there for a timeless interval, accumulating enough Essence to > become, well, God. I hadn't heard that one... but since you mention it, I think that concept IS the Limbo Heresy. Since a Heresy is a theory or belief relevant to a given religion, but taught as directly false and evil by figures representing that religion, a Limbo Heresy would therefore be a concept about Limbo opposed by most of the Heavenly Host. Any concept that suggests that God is in no way unique or special, but just happens to have done something anyone could do that made him God, would _definitely_ be considered heretical by just about all earthly religions. I also suspect Dominic would have something to say about it... but what is Yves smirking about over there? Savage Wombat Mercurian in service to Fnords ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 20:48:01 -0800 From: Greg Jensen Subject: Re: IN> Habbalah (Re: seneschal query) At 01:54 AM 12/15/98 +0100, you wrote: >...which still, IMO, doesn't explain how newly created Habbalah, who know >they've been created by a DP, think they are the only true angels. Or why >they choose to work with demons. > >Another question: Vapula is a DP Habbalite. Why does he create demons >instead of only more Habbalah? Here's a possibility that may not have been explored: What if habbalah really ARE angels? Why do they work with and create demons? Because they have been ordered to. They could be the original Hell's Angels, sort of undercover agents of God. So why do they act so demonic? Maybe there is some purpose to it all that fits in with God's overall plans. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 23:47:56 EST From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Sorcery Question In a message dated 12/14/98 8:32:11 AM Central Standard Time, AmadanSJG@compuserve.com writes: > >>>As per the Marches & the stuff on Limbo, you can make a Vessel if you > have enough Essence.<<< > > > Actually, those are both special cases, rather than a general rule. > Usually, you _cannot_ make a vessel simply by having enough Essence -- > creating vessels is a power limited to Superiors. However, ethereals and > beings in Limbo are exceptions. Actually I would say that anyone with enough essence could make a vessel, but that lower level celestials simply don't have enough essence. A Superior would, obviously, and ethereals and celestials in Limbo have a special ability to save essence for that purpose. I'd say that if a lower level celestial (i.e. a PC) could find a way to save enough essence (through use of a big honkin' reliquary, or simply a lot of little ones) he could make a vessel. By the same token, several celestials could get together to create a vessel. That would be an interesting idea, now that I think about it. Imagine a group of Renegades and Outcasts forming a black market "vessel cabal" in exchange for favors and protection. Okay, my question is: How do you improve the level of an existing vessel? Do you need the intervention of a Superior? Do you just eat a lot of protein and hope you'll beef up? Theoretically, if you use my idea that all you need is enough essence, then really you just need more essence to pump up your vessel. (75 per level for a human vessel) Again you'd need help to do this since, again, you need to spend it all at once. Your thoughts, people? Brian A Rogers ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 00:05:38 EST From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> The Limbo Heresy In a message dated 12/14/98 4:43:00 PM Central Standard Time, lugh@cats.ucsc.edu writes: > Wait a minute. I thought ALL Celestials had Hearts, no matter what > their duty? No. All angels have hearts. Demons only get hearts when given duty on earth, so they can find their way back to hell. Outcast angels' hearts have cracked, so they can't home in on them. Renegades have broken theirs. Free Lilim have none, unless perhaps they can finagle one from Lilith (expensive) and get her to keep it somewhere for them. (way expensive). At least that's how I understand it. Brian A Rogers ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 05:54:58 +0000 From: Jo Hart Subject: Re: IN> The Limbo Heresy It began innocently enough. An outcast seraph , contrite and penitent, turned itself in to the powers of Judgement and begged to be returned to heaven. On the way back, it preached in the streets and in the tethers, to anyone who would give it half an ear, that God had spoken to it, and had shown it the light. When encouraged to continue, the outcast whispered fervently that whilst it had languished in limbo, it had felt God's presence all around it, and had seen a path to the higher heavens, which it had not been allowed to pass through. Instead it had been sent back to pass the Good News to all of heaven. God was back, and He wanted to speak to all of His angels personally. Other seraphim proved unable to get much of a reading on the Truth of these statements, beyond that there was no doubt that the outcast genuinely believed. Finally Dominic himself deigned to hear the seraph's plea. It was never seen again. But by this time the damage was done. All around heaven, the rumours travelled. Otherwise loyal angels bravely shattered their own hearts and took the journey into limbo without even telling their fellows where they were going. Few ever returned. In one of the few instances in which they had ever been in total agreement, Michael dictated severe punishments for any of his angels who went AWOL -- after all, how can you fight a War without an army.. and still, the numbers of missing angels increased. Then, Gabriel went missing... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Dec 98 01:01 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> The Limbo Heresy [Kelly St. Clair:] >It's been hypothesized that Limbo is the original state of the universe, >before God's Creation... and that God may have gotten His power by just >sitting there for a timeless interval, accumulating enough Essence to >become, well, God. This is one I'd thought of a long time ago. There's also the story circulated by the ethereals that God is just a hopped-up ethereal. Well, maybe he got stuck in Limbo some many millenia ago and somehow thought of some neat trick to take all of that nice Essence back out of Limbo with him, and take over.... >Consider the Tower of Babel. God was sincerely concerned that "if they >can do this thing, they shall be like unto Gods; let us therefore go down >and confuse their tongues." > >A tether to Limbo, constructed by mortals? Cute. I actually have a Tether to Limbo sort of in my campaign world. It got created by a bunch of Vapulan researchers, and it sucked them all in. Lilith got the idea of using sorcery (she's human, remember?) to suck them back out again, by giving them enough Essence for a vessel and then dragging them out by summoning. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Dec 98 01:08 EST From: Walter Milliken Subject: Re: IN> seneschal query >1) i have two types opf tether in my London campaign - greater and >lesser (for example, westminster Palace is greater while Wembley stadium >is Lesser). What sort of Force-levels shuld the Greater nad lesser >sneschals be. A greater tether is one that is very old and has a lot of >history (like westminster palace) and im going with 14/15 Force-ish >characters, while lesser tethers are ones from this century or the last, >and the average seneschal is 11/12 Force. Ive pieced this rule from the >sourcebook NPC's so far. i would appreciate some thoughts on power >levels (and not just for seneschals - how about Distinctions rankings as >well - Greater seneschals are always Master/Baron, whiile Lesser are >Vassal, etc.) Tether canon (from the forthcoming L.Castellorum) is that Seneschals must be 13 Forces or more (at least when they're appointed, it's possible they might lose Forces later), and normally must also have a 1st level distinction to be considered for the job. These are general qualifications, not absolute rules from the workings of the Symphony, but exceptions will be *very* rare. - ---Walter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 15:13:38 +0900 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Absolute Morality >>>Hmmm... most athiests I know do actually believe in some sort of morality.<<< Of course most atheists believe in some sort of morality! I certainly do. *Most people* believe in some sort of morality. But believing in morality is _not_ the same thing as believing in absolute morality. >>>I don't think that they claim that it is a universal absolute morality, but they believe in it enough to dissaprove of cultures that violate basic human rights, and think that they warrant censure.<<< Bingo. Almost everyone agrees that rape and murder is bad. But is it bad because God says so, or because it's imbedded in our genes that it's bad, or is it just bad because most people agree that treating other people well leads to a better living environment all around? I think rape and murder is bad, but I don't think there's any universal law that makes it bad -- it's bad because we human beings agree it's bad. The fact that this is not universal can be shown by the fact that in some cultures, both rape and murder (usually under limited circumstances) are considered perfectly acceptable, and no one (except the victims) feel that anything bad has occurred. If it were universal, then it would be regarded as wrong in all cultures, in all cases. >>>This is in one sense be a "religious" belief: we think that our belief in fundamental human rights is just and correct, and hence everybody should subscribe to it.<<< It's not a religious belief unless it's taken on faith, without evidence, and not subject to falsification. I think that my beliefs are just and correct -- obviously, or I wouldn't hold those beliefs. I don't think everyone should subscribe to my beliefs, in the sense that my beliefs should be imposed on the rest of the world. Naturally I think the world would be a better place if everyone agreed with me :). But because my beliefs are _not_ religious in nature, I can accept the possibility that I'm wrong, and I leave my beliefs open to challenge and I am willing to be shown that there is an error in my thinking. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 22:58:28 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Knop Subject: Re: IN> Absolute Morality > Bingo. Almost everyone agrees that rape and murder is bad. But is it bad > because God says so, or because it's imbedded in our genes that it's > bad, or is it just bad because most people agree that treating other > people well leads to a better living environment all around? I think > rape and murder is bad, but I don't think there's any universal law that > makes it bad -- it's bad because we human beings agree it's bad. The > fact that this is not universal can be shown by the fact that in some > cultures, both rape and murder (usually under limited circumstances) are > considered perfectly acceptable, and no one (except the victims) feel > that anything bad has occurred. If it were universal, then it would be > regarded as wrong in all cultures, in all cases. OK, you're looking at "universal" differently than I am. Sure, by your definition, I agree; clearly, given a cluture that accepts rape and murder, the abhorrence of same is not universal. On the other hand, I know many people who hold the belief that rape and murder is wrong, and is still wrong even when applied in a culture that condones it. This belief is universal not in that everybody thinks it is wrong, but rather in that one individual thinks it is wrong for everybody. This individual need not think that it is wrong for everybody because of some outside definition of morality, however; he can be an athiest, and _still_ believe that rape and murder are universally wrong. Am I being at all clear? Not, "Rape and murder are wrong because of some external-to-human-experience universal law," but rather, "rape and murder are always wrong; cultures that disagree are misguided and dangerous." That's a "universal" morality, potentially in the absense of religion. By requiring that all cultures agree on what is moral for there to be a universal morality implies that every culture is right and correct about what is morally acceptable. I don't think it takes a belief in an external system of laws to disagree with this. Plenty of people who are not at all religious do certainly believe that some cultures are simply _wrong_ in what they consider acceptable. I'm not saying necessarily that you do, but lots of people do. - -Rob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 02:50:27 -0500 (EST) From: Casca Subject: Habbalah (was re: IN> seneschal query) On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > But this doesn't explain why they believe it, only why the ones who don't > aren't around for long, at least not if they can't hide it very well. > > I find this a bit of a mystery as well. I think it has to be part of their > nature somehow, but I find it very hard to get inside their heads, so to > speak. :-/ The Habbalah can be summed up thusly: You die after living a good and virtuous life and you go to Heaven. While there, you run into Adolph Hitler. Wouldn't that piss you off? Wouldn't it be a travesty of truly cosmic proportions? The Habbalah exist to make sure that doesn't happen. They are celestial Darwinists, weeding out the weak and unfit and ensuring that only the pure go to Heaven. They perform this function by selecting a mortal and random, and testing his virtue by attempting to manipulate his emotions until he is little more than a puppet. If he resists, then he is pure and worthy of Heaven, and he is left alone. If he succumbs to them, then he is obviously scum, and we all know scum belong in Hell. Scum in Hell deserve to be punished, and just because this guy isn't dead doesn't mean he's not deserving of punishment. In fact, since he succumbed to sin, he's OBVIOUSLY evil, and needs to be punished for the evil deeds he committed under the Habbalite's direction. So they turn the guy's life into a living Hell, destroying (or causing him to destroy) everything of value in his life. Serves the weak bastard right. Sometimes, Habbalah get...enthusiastic. There are so many humans, with such finite lifespans, that your average Punisher really has to hustle if she's to make a difference on Earth. This often leads to interesting techniques of time-management, such as starting with children. Children are supposed to be innocent, right? And the innocent are supposed to go to Heaven, so it stands to reason that a child should be able to resist a Habbalite -better- than an adult. Any child who succumbs to emotional manipulation is obviously a bad seed, and it's better for the whole of humanity that such deviants are removed from society early, before they get a change to influence others or, God forbid, reproduce. It's oddly ironic that every child such Habbalah 'visit' are, to a one, bad seeds, but the Punishers just shrug and say they're excellent judges of character and know deviant scum when they see it. Habbalah see themselves as Divine Scourges, punishing the guilty for their sins. There are plenty of guilty people in Hell, all needing to pay for their sins. Demons don't see it that way -- they consider damned souls to be tools or property or currency. But the Habbalah know them for what they are -- convicts in the biggest jail in all of creation. The sentence is for life, and the Habbalah are the guards. Any demonling involved in squeezing essence out of damned souls has the potential to become a Habbalite, for only the Punishers realize the true purpose of Hell. For Heaven to be paradise, it must have an opposite number; anyone who makes Hell hellish is serving God's will, because if Hell is nothing more than a slightly warm afterlife, then Heaven loses its meaning. And if you're serving God's will, then you're clearly an angel, no matter where you happen to have your office. - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 05:01:49 -0500 (EST) From: Pee Kitty Subject: Re: IN> Discord: Noisy On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > This sprang into my head full-formed as I awoke... > > Discord: Noisy (Celestial) > > Every time the celestial does something that causes disturbance, the > level of this Discord is added to that disturbance. Wow...why did it take so long for someone to think of this?? You've GOT to stick that in one of the books somewhere. - -- Rev. Pee Kitty, of the order Malkavian-Dobbsian Meow! ::: Thinking about a Tampa Bay Devival in the future - email me! ::: Or go to http://www.cris.com/~pkitty (hell, go there anyways!) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:15:39 -0500 From: Perestroika Subject: Re: Habbalah (was re: IN> seneschal query) As great as this was, though, it still doesn't answer the question being asked: Why do newly-formed Habbalah all believe that they work for Heaven, when their first memories are of Hell and the Demon Prince they now serve? My answer is: it's an irrevocable part of their mindset. The Demon Princes watched Elohim fall to become the first Habbalah, looked at each other, said, "Hey, this is a pretty good idea," and started working on duplicating the effect in newly-created demons. Why don't newly-created Habbalah question their sudden appearance in Hell? See below... But, asked someone else, wouldn't this whole serving God bit be an undesirable trait? Nope. The Demon Princes love it, especially the Balseraphs. Part of the "I serve God" mindset involves the assumption that God's put you where you are for a reason - and if God's put you there, you stay there until God tells you otherwise... and the Demon Princes know (or at least think they're relatively certain) that God's not going to be telling this demon what to do for a very, very long time. In other words, Demon Princes deliberately create Habbalah with this mindset, because their general fanaticism about punishing the weak (and therefore bringing them to Hell - and you can _always_ find a weakness in someone) is beneficial, and they tend to stick around because This Is Where They've Been Assigned. So why, faced with no memories of the past and a Demon Prince standing before them, does this mindset hold? Well, obviously God erased the Habbalah's memories before giving him to this *shudder* demon. It makes sense, of course - if the Habbalite had memories of his Heavenly duties, it would distract him from his duty as Punisher. Hm... can't think of anything else. Comments? - -EDG it's all a matter of rationalization... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 15:11:21 +0000 () From: "David.Evans" Subject: Re: IN> Absolute Truth (was Absolute Morality) SurtZ sic scripsit: [a bit of snippage here] > For there to be Absolute Morality, first there must be absolute Truth > (ie. "God exists" or "Killing defenseless children is wrong"). OK, here is where I stick my oar into the argument. I don't think that statement holds true, but I'll leave it to the logic lawyers to haggle over... > Here's my proof for Absolute Truth: > "Absolute Truth must exist, since if Absolute Truth did not exist, its > non-existence would be an Absolute Truth. That is, the statement 'There > is Absolute Truth' proves itself. It's existence is axiomatic. It is the > fundamental absolute truth. It may also be the ONLY absolute truth, but > if there is one, it is certainly possible that there are others." I think that Goedel's Theorem kicks in about here. I can't remember what it states exactly, but the gist of it is that "No Theory can proven absolutely if in order to prove it, it uses mechanics taken from within the self-same system that is there to proven or disproven." My dad, a Biochemist also said to me, "There is no such thing as absolute proof. Theories can however, be disproved absolutely." Discuss. > A consequence of the existence of Absolute Truth is the existence of > Absolute Untruth: > "The statement 'There is no Absolute Truth' proves the existence of > Absolute Untruth, since it can never be true" See the argument above for Absolute Truth (or the lack thereof :). > If you wanted to adapt this to In Nomine, God is the first statement > ("There is Absolute Truth"), Lucifer is the second ("There is no > Absolute Truth"). I think that's streaching it a bit far personally. I'm not concious enough atm to argue this out properly though, but I'm sure there are a few Mathematicians or Philosophers who know enough about logic to nit-pick sufficiently. > Yves describes God as "discovering parts of himself". Perhaps this is > the discovery of other absolute truths. I thought the idea of Absolute Truth was that it was all-encompassing. If you require more than one of them, then clearly aren't Absolute in final sense of the word, as I think you were implying. In just the same way, you cannot have "The Laws of Ethics" written in stone, unchanging, now and forever - the best you can have are little bits of Tribal Ethos. > I would see the Upper Heavens as > containing all the absolute truths, which is why they are out of reach > of the diabolicals (since they are absolute truths, they cannot ever be > disproven). I'd say that almost all truths are out of reach of the Diabolicals because they are so self-deceiving. Besides, see my argument above that everything can disproven. Einstein's Theory of General Relativity has not been absolutely proven. There is, admittedly, a sizeable body of evidence to suggest that it does hold true. But one small peice of evidence is all that is needed to *disprove* it utterly. > The Angels (and their words) represent truths not yet absolute. That is > why Seraphim are the holiest - their word is Truth. I'll agree with you here. > A lot of IN things can be explained using this interpretation. Uriel > ascending to Heaven? He proved that the existence of Purity is an > absolute truth - by starting to kill off the ethereals, he proved that > "the void is pure". That's one way of putting it. I disagree wholeheartedly, since I think that was Uriel getting a God-sized slapping. The void may be pure indeed, but it is also, unfortuneately, still a void... > Kobal's big joke is that neither side can win, since the two basic > truths of the universe are that there is God and the Devil. Interesting... Be seeing you... David. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:55:27 -0500 From: Perestroika Subject: Re: Habbalah (was re: IN> seneschal query) A note, that I completely forgot to bring up in my Habbalah post: I firmly believe that the Habbalah are the demons least likely to Redeem, along with the Shedim. Reasoning? The Habbalah already believe that they're doing God's work down in Hell. The only reason a Habbalite would even consider Redeeming is if Hell chased him out (and then, he'd probably just flee to Heaven and wonder why there were twenty Malakim suddenly coming for him with very large weapons...); otherwise, God put him here to be an angelic presence in Hell, and that's where he's going to stay until God decides to put him elsewhere. (Okay, I can see another one - a Habbalite deluded into thinking that he's hearing the Voice of God might try to Redeem, but that's a special case. :) - -EDG ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:08:14 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> The Limbo Heresy Here's my take on it: The Limbo Heresy is a philosophy, similar to Gnosticism, which has a small but devoted following among the Host and in the Pit. It's origins are found in the 3rd century A.D., promoted by an Outcast Elohite named Hakael. Hakael was heavily influenced by Gnosticism, and by his time in Limbo. He embraced the idea that matter was evil, but extended it further than the Gnostics could have (thanks to his greater understanding of the strucure of the universe). It wasn't just corporeal matter that was evil; ethereal and celestial existence was evil as well. The Symphony is inherently physicality and existence. This distracted pure intelligence and spirit (the only truely good and perfect existence) from perfection. Hakael's also taught that God was the source of all evil, because He had created the Symphony. Only an evil being would deliberatly beget evil, after all. Lucifer is no better; he rejected God, but still desires to rule the Symphony. There is a perfect Creator, though. This is the being who created spirit, and whom God rebelled rebelled against to create the Symphony. This perfect Creator exists beyond the Symphony, in a place where there is nothing but pure mind and pure thought - Limbo. Hakael has thought long about his "Limbo Heresy" (as Dominic named it), and is able to explain the questions he is asked about it. Celestials have the power to create vessels in Limbo and return to the world of the Flesh, because they have regained their true status as Aeons. In truth, all beings (mortal, ethereal, or celestial) possess the same power as the rogue Aeon who created the Flesh. Most beings have accepted His lies and allowed themselves to become subservient to Him. Lucifer rejected *that* lie, but has not given up the Flesh. Hakael himself only endures his return to the worlds of the Flesh in order to restore his fellows to the true knowledge of themselves. The fact that the Symphony can still be heard in Limbo only attests to the power and danger of the rogue Aeon who created it; the evil Flesh seeks to overwhelm the the world of pure thought. The Archangels and Demon Princes are *not* amused with Hakael and his "Limbo Heresy". If a demon is discovered to be a Limboist, that is immediate grounds for reeducation at the hands of the Game. Angels who follow the Limbo Heresy don't have a much easier time; they recieve therapy and doctrinal teachings from Seraphim and Elohim, and are not allowed to leave Heaven until they recant. (The only real difference between the approachs of Heaven and Hell to the Limboists is that Judgement'sreeducation doesn't typically end with Force-mining.) The heresy is most popular among Outcasts and Renegades, although there are some well-hidden converts in Heaven and Hell. These celestials tend to set up cells, and preach the truth as they see it to those who they believe will be receptive. Hakael has not Fallen yet. He's still an angel. Just ask him. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:08:34 -0500 From: John Karakash - Lucent ASCC Subject: Re: IN> Habbalah (Re: seneschal query) Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > > The first Habbalah who Fell knew they had not Fallen. Did not Malakim > > arise from the purity of passions? They are no longer their weak > > chrysilis form. They understand that their *Every Whim* is Divinely > > inspired. And that they must punish the unworthy, those who must not > > be allowed to drag Heaven down with them. > > ...which still, IMO, doesn't explain how newly created Habbalah, who know > they've been created by a DP, think they are the only true angels. Or why > they choose to work with demons. They delude themselves. No, really! God works in mysterious ways and just as a flower can grow in excrement, so He has designed it that the one true choir can flourish in Hell. God has placed them in Hell for a reason and if that means working with demons, so be it. This actually provides a useful safety valve for Hell. Habbalah are an example of how delusional God-worship is (there's not a demon alive that doesn't think of Habbalah sometimes when they encounter angels). Also those proto-demons who might have a weakness of character or Will that might cause them to redeem can be given to the Habbalah. Either they 'redeem' or they are destroyed. Neat, eh? > > Another question: Vapula is a DP Habbalite. Why does he create demons > instead of only more Habbalah? Because it's expedient, probably. He, like all Habbalah, has a mission. That mission can be served by demons as well as angels. Whatever serves God's plan best. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ | John Karakash - Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs | | (919)388-2665(COOL) MIB2300 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 16:29:19 +0000 From: Kevin Walsh Subject: Re: IN> Absolute Morality On Mon, Dec 14, 1998 at 06:33:09PM +0100, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > > And furthermore, Michael was found guilty yet he was still acquitted. God > > is the only one who is allowed to violate absolute morality - which He > > did. > > By overturning Dominic's ruling, God allowed Michael to break God's Law - Indeed. This is something I'm iffy on. I generally assume that God (in his personified form) has a superset of all his Superiors' and Choirs' dissonance restrictions, which leaves the question of whether he is capable of acquitting wrongdoers. Of course, if Janus is used as a model for God, then we can presume that he's capricious and occasionally arbitrary. And it gets more confusing from there. > it wasn't God who was on trial. Just remove that 'not', and you have an excellent new heresy. Kevin Walsh, Balseraph of Nitpicking, Demon of Off-Topic Trivia. - -- "Warfare is the Tao of deception. Thus although capable, display incapability to them. When committed to employing your forces, feign inactivity. When [your objective] is nearby, make it appear as if distant; when far away, create the illusion of being nearby." -Sun Tzu, the Art of War. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:37:05 -0500 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: IN> Re: The Limbo Heresy In the midrash, it is written that when undertaking the act of Creation, God left a part of the universe undone, as a challenge to any false gods who had pretensions to the status of Creator. If they were who they said they were, said God, then they should be able to complete His work. This zone of oblivion has a manifestation in each of the three realms. In the celestial realm, the unformed part of reality is where the rebel angels set up the evil kingdom of Hell, outside the spaces shaped by their great Enemy. In the ethereal realm, the Far Marches lie empty and dreamless, mute testimony of the Lord's superiority over the ethereal spirits. In the physical universe, the unformed part of reality is the region of spacetime still inaccessible 15 billion years after Creation, unknown and unknowable to a science limited by the speed of light. But even these places do not fill it -- the bulk of it is Limbo, which is ultimate emptiness. In every age, God's challenge has withstood all comers -- every spirit and demon and creature who has sought the title of the Most High has been stymied by His test. Of all the demon princes, it is Asmodeus who has hated this test the most -- his inability to draw God's challenge into the Game was a raw wound, a mocking reminder that it was God and not him that was the ultimate arbiter of universal law. Until now. 3000 years ago, Solomon built the Temple to house the holy of holies. He was able to build a proper temple for the physical house of God on Earth, a task beyond any purely human effort, because he was able to use his seal, a ring engraved with the name of God, to compel the obedience of Asmodeus. Exactly as Asmodeus had planned -- even the wisdom of Solomon could not see through the all the guile and craft of the prince of the Game, and Asmodeus was able to trick Solomon into giving up the ring. So Asmodeus took control of Israel. His victory was short-lived, however, because Solomon was able to return and retake his crown. The ring was lost, however -- it had been cast into the Red Sea. But time means little to a demon prince, and Asmodeus set demons to search the sea floor. Now he has found the ring once more, and he plans to win God's challenge and assert the universality of the Game. He plans on using it to compel Eli to fill the void, and then he will be able to say that he is so powerful that even his servants can fulfill the test set by God. There's only one problem: Eli has learned of his intent and fled. Asmodeus has played the Game well enough that Dominic believes Eli to be a danger to Heaven, and has isolated him from the help of his brother angels. But Asmodeus knows that it's only a matter of time before the truth comes out. Eli must be found before that time. Nothing can stand in the way of seizing the throne of God. Nothing. (The PCs, of course, would be demons of Asmodeus hunting a rogue archangel.) - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswv.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1054 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.