From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Dec 21 13:10:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA26596 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:10:28 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id MAA03873 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 12:50:21 -0600 Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 12:50:21 -0600 Message-Id: <199812211850.MAA03873@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1064 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, December 21 1998 Volume 01 : Number 1064 In this digest: Re: IN> Ethereals Re: IN> Ethereals Re: IN> Ethereal ponderings... Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade Re: IN> Word Conflict Re: IN> Word Conflict Re: IN> Ethereals IN> Uriel's Crusade - Historical Accuracy Re: IN> Malakim in their place Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade Re: IN> Marc's name Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade - Historical Accuracy Re: IN> Uriel's crusade Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade - Historical Accuracy Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade - Historical Accuracy IN> Celestial Interventions Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade - Historical Accuracy ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 10:03:46 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > Having abandoned all religion I can't say I'm an expert on Hinduism, > but as IIRC there were 3 main Gods Brahma, Shiva & Vishnu which > were not aspects of each other and all of the other Gods were > aspects of these 3 - there may or may not be a creator God I know > way too little. My memories of a brief comparative religion class and of readings in a World Mythology encyclopedia are completely contrary to this. Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva constitute a trinity/triad, called "Trimurti," and, it seemed to me, the fans of the three different gods each supported their own favorite as the most essential, the other two being aspects. Brahma is the creator deity; Vishnu the sustainer (and the one most often immediately identified with the pure Godhead), and Shiva the destroyer/renewer. Theological sophisticated Hinduism is quite varied, but tends, I gather, to pantheism (God = Universe). This is quite close to the view IN has wound up with, in what I suspect was an effort to sound profound while in a state of ignorance about western theology. The role of pagan gods, in IN, is to be victims and dissidents. It would be very hard to paint the Hindu pantheon that way, since it is by far the most powerful paganism in the world at the moment, with no signs of weakening. If the Hindu gods couldn't be painted as Archangels, DPs, and other Worded celestials (which would be hard to do well), then IN would have to paint them simply as Ethereal gods who were untouched by Uriel's Crusade. Oh, there have been some skirmishes with Islam, but then recently there have been some interesting incursions into the West -- variously mangled forms of Hinduism being a cornerstone of counter-cultural religion in the West since Mme. Blavatsky and the founding of Theosophy, and earlier. (Before that, rebel mystics of the West made do with mangled Egyptian myth. Have Emily Desner fulminate about it for you some time. She's good at it.) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 10:14:03 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals Neel Krishnaswami wrote: > The whole notion of ethereal gods owes more to Neil Gaiman and > _Sandman_ than it does to anything approximating any real set of > religious practices ever. Gaiman, in turn, is doing his take on an idea that is, by now, a venerable old trope of fantasy, that belief creates the gods. This is so old, some people seem to be forgetting it was a piece of satire and are believing it is a piece of pagan theology or something. Personally, I am quite tired of it. Someday, I'd like to write a story in which the gods begin to doubt OUR existence, and WE are the ones in metaphysical hot water... The actual accomodation that European Christianity reached about the pagan gods was a deal more complicated than anything in the game. Whenever there was actual conflict between Christian and pagan political forces, the image at the Christian forefront was that pagan gods were mere fictions and/or hellish propaganda. But once Christianity had been clear victor for a long time -- as with the Greco-Roman gods by the High Middle Ages and later -- the old gods were allowed to take on a new kind of life, or even more than one. Mars/Ares, for instance, could be used freely in secular literature as an allegorical figure of War personified. He could also be identified more closely with his planet and its astrological influence. If IN had used this instead of the Uriel Crusade, you might see old gods in a sort of "retired" status. No one is worshipping them any more, so they don't have an Essence income, at least from that source, but they receive *attention* in their allegorical roles, which at least helps keep them in existence. And, since they are something like Worded as allegorical figures, perhaps they can even draw Essence without being worshipped, wherever their Word or quasi-Word is in evidence. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 10:17:21 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Ethereal ponderings... The Anthonys wrote: > The similarity probably stems from a common Indo-European root, > which also probably gives rise to the Hindu trinity and, possibly, > the Christian trinity as well. Three is, after all, a very, very > common mystic number. Christianity is a Semitic religion, though, not Indo-European. I think its trinity imagery more likely derives from the familial trinities (mother-father-child) of the Near East. Assisting this, the Hebrew word for "spirit," "ru'ah," is feminine in gender, I'm told, so Father, Son, and Spirit fit the pattern nicely, at least in the original Hebrew and Aramaic. (Greek "pneuma" is neuter, and Latin "spiritus" is masculine.) Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 10:21:00 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > But one he DID hand down was "Worship no other gods before me." Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > OTOH, that doesn't seem to be a commandment He's especially > interested in whether people follow or not, since religion doesn't > seem to have any bearing on where human souls end up. He might not be, but Uriel might be. And the requirement to worship God alone is common and strong in all three big monotheistic religions (almost by definition, you might say). For the original Malakite, former Seraph, to be lured away from monotheism is to be deluded about the most central fact of the universe. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 15:37:57 +0000 (GMT) From: Warsinger Subject: Re: IN> Word Conflict On Sun, 20 Dec 1998 BillionSix@aol.com wrote: > I don't know. I think the seeds of Gabriel's madness were already there, > stemming from the anger of Dominic putting her on trial, and the Word conflict > between her and Belial simply aggravated it. As for War, I don't think having > an opposite number in that case would cause any trouble at all, seeing as > having an enemy or opposite number is pretty much required as part of that > Word. Sorry, I was being a little imprecise in my orginal post - the Word conflict isn't the only cause of Gabriel's madness you're quite right there. But IIRC the book with Gabriel's full write-up does say something along the Word Conflict being enough to hurt a stable celestial - "but in Gabriel's case it just added napalm to the fire". Even if the effects were not as dramatic as with Gabriel it could still be helpful for Hell. > The problem Gabriel has with Belial is that he is promoting a very different > aspect of Fire. The pure destruction aspect, while her version is the > purifying, holy flame. I seem to remember something about Lucifer encouarging Belial to support that side of Fire so as to limit Gabriel - I'll need to check the book though. A Demon Prince of War might glorify a slightly > different nuance than Michael, but not enough to create any serious symphonic > feedback, if you catch my drift. I see your point here - although not quite convinced :) > Besides, we already have a Prince of the War. And having a Prince of War > right next to a Prince of the War would just get a little silly. :) Oh yes absolutely. > Besides if there were word conflict, between Michael's War and Hell's War, I > don't see either party driven mad. Conflict is what these guys are for after > all. It would just sort of spur them on. It seems to fuel Belial's engine. If > he feels the conflict from Gabriel's fire, he's lovin' it! > Just my thoughts, > Brian A. Rogers > I see only Gabriel having problems from it because she is the one who hears the true symphony with the noise from Belial across it - whereas Belial is just hearing is his own symphony like all demons. Which raises the question of how exactly Demons hear Disturbance - but I expect that has been discussed before. Warsinger Cute and fluffy....(with claws) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 15:39:59 +0000 (GMT) From: Warsinger Subject: Re: IN> Word Conflict On Mon, 21 Dec 1998, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > > Cunning Idea! But (I'm not sure on this bit) the opposing demon would only > cause pyschological trauma if the Demon had a great grip on the Word, thus > perverting the angels view of the symphony (because their word has > changed). And Lucifer does not was hundreds of mad DP's about it makes it > too likely that one faction will ally and attempt to take Lucifer down. Cool - I knew there would be a good argument against this - and I think this is it. I posted it to find out the flaws in it - so thanks everyone. The new DP simply wouldn't have enough effect on the Symphony. Warsinger Cute and fluffy....(with claws) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 10:50:50 EST From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Ethereals In a message dated 12/20/98 5:17:56 PM, ramesh.sat@telinco.co.uk writes: >Having abandoned all religion I can't say I'm an expert on Hinduism, but as >IIRC there were 3 main Gods Brahma, Shiva & Vishnu which were not aspects >of each other and all of the other Gods were aspects of these 3 - there may >or may not be a creator God I know way too little. > The universe-creation legend of Hinduism, as I recall it is thus: Ohm, the primordial being, sleeps. His dreams are the dreams of the Universe. He slept because he had only Nothingness (Nirvana) to accompany him. But then the Nothingness stirred. As Ohm dreamed, a new being became, and became, and became. The new being was a cycle, and had its own awareness, but the awareness was divided against itself. Before long, the cycle understood that it was taking Nothingness and Creating, then Sustaining, then Returning to nothingness. And it knew that it was not merely one cycle, but three Beings, Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. And these Beings became the universe, and taking Nothingness, created places and people, both other Gods from themselves, and Humans from Nothingness, and sustained them in their lives and struggles, and returned them to their primordial substance. But Ohm still sleeps, and dreams. And what if Ohm should wake? > >Ramesh Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 11:07:27 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: IN> Uriel's Crusade - Historical Accuracy My confusion, and ergo my beef, with the Purification Crusade in canon, is not with it's reasons or its necessity, but it's placement in history. The only fixed date that is given is 745 AD, the date of the trial and Uriel's ascention to the higher Heavens. Unfortunately, this does not work historically with the rest of the sourcebook on several points. The main passage I'm going to have quibble with is on page 92, first column, which states: "The pagans have Rites for gaining Essence, some of which are passed on to their mortal worshippers. Their major source of Essence is their worshippers...." * Break between Orthodox and Catholic Churchs, and other problems: Just because Constantine ended the Great Persecution with his ascent to the throne of the Byzantine Empire, this did not make the Church particularly stable, not even by the Nicae Council in 325 AD. At that time, Constantine endorsed Christianity in a way to end much of the pointless killing and religion murder which had been occuring for the last 10 years. He wasn't so much a Christian [although legend has it he converted on his death bed] as much as a man who knew that if he had less racial hatred in his If one is going off of Uriel's ascention through Papal decree, then this is confusing. The Papal state was not established until 751 AD, six years later. I'm a little curious about the date and it's concurrance with the split in the Church which came along in 877 AD as well. I'm hoping that the writers do know that the church split between Orthodox and Catholicism then, and claiming Catholicism before that point doesn't have too much meaning. * Charlemange, and his Reformation: The pagan gods of Europe were doing just fine until Charlamange came along. It looked to me like Uriel's Crusade is actually based on him, where he killed the priests of the old gods and put into place the worship of Christ. The problem with this is that he didn't rule until 800-814 AD. [Christmas Day, 800AD in fact.] He had, previously, found the Huns, the Franks, the Mervingovians (descendants of Christ? :) ), the Saxons, all in an effort to establish a Holy Roman Empire, which he _did_, and then was crowned Emperor after some shenanigans between the Catholics and the Orthodox and who really had power over the Church, east or west. Now, interestingly, the pagans of the Germanic states worshipped their gods so thoroughly and resented the attempted conversion to Christianity so much that they murdered every single priest or monk who entered the towns that Charlamange had to send in armed troops which burned down the holy sites, villages, towns, and people themselves until they consented. So the first real mass conversions didn't begin until after Uriel moved on, and all these mythical beasts that were killed and destroyed weren't until long after he was gone. Are we to assume that Uriel had some sort of temporal vision in time which allowed him to know that the Gods he was killing would be cut off in supply of essence fifty years after he was gone? I can actually see some explainations for this, that Uriel was in the midst of killing these last when he was dragged up to the Higher Heavens, and their weakening meant that there was only 100 years of war with the Germanic pagans instead of several hundreds. The problem with this comes into explaining the reasoning for the Crusades, since by then the Germanic hordes had warped Christ into some sort of strange Feudalistic Lord which gave them orders to kill _along with_ their pagan Gods. So was there a resurgance? Some change in the Marches yet unpublished? * The Norse Gods and the Vikings: The problem with all of the Norse references in the In Nomine literature and the In Nomine history is that that the Vikings entered the European Theater after 800AD - 1050AD, after Uriel had long since ended. As a matter of fact, their raids became so fierce and so terrible in their quest to find room for an overcrowded, ever expanding civilization that the denizens of Europe - all the way down to Spain! - claimed that the Vikings were a sign of the end of the world in a bad case of Millenial Fever. The Vikings spread all across Europe, all the way into Russia to Kiev, down into Spain, into Greenland and Iceland, and even went so far as Constantiople, bringing their religion with them. [This is, of course, why we know so much about it.] The Norse Gods were not replaced by Christianity until well into the turn of the millenia, when the new religion was beginning to be accepted in the Nordic countries through conquest and through Europe striking back. So how Uriel killed a bunch of Gods who were receiving steady worship in a suddenly explosive spread of the population of worshippers after he was very much gone is a mystery. Again, it seems to be a case of Uriel and his hordes being able to see into the future, and essence going to destroyed Gods unspent. The problem is the worshippers, and the fact that there were so many of them. * The Aztecs, Mayans and other Mexican Civilizations: One of the most obvious problems in the Marches sourcebook, the Aztec civilization didn't exist yet. The capital of Tenochtitlan wasn't built until the 12th century AD. This is from page 100 of the Marches, second column: "The Aztec spirits where some of the most heavily persecuted of the pagan gods. Uriel's crusaders considered the blood-soaked idols of the Aztecs to be some of the worst perversions of human worship by the ethereals and so struck against the Aztec spirits without mercy. "The gods of the Aztecs were forced to abadnon their followers and retreat deep into the Marches, where they suffered greatly from lack of worship..." How Aztec Gods received essence for sacrifices in a religion which didn't exist yet, and how they failed to receive essence from the several _million_ worshippers in Mexico baffles me. The Aztec civilization was destroyed in 1521, but there is evidence to this day of continuing worship of the old ways [along with Mayan Indians and some Toltec] intermingled with Christianity. It's possible that Uriel's Crusade was continuing, but they obviously didn't faire too well, as worship of old Gods from the Olmecs to the Mayan Old Civilization to the Mayan New Civilization to the Aztecs seemed to have done pretty well for the 1000 years it was in existence - long before Uriel, and very definitely long afterwards. ********************************* Thank God people are smart enough not to use sourcebooks as sources of history, because this one is an almost painful read. Besides the fact that pp 75-113 of the Marches are not particularly well written, they are rife with not only religious inaccuracies, but historical anomalies and some bits which are just incorrect. _Sigh_ Anyway, the Marches doesn't make much sense. The Purification Crusade is just fine for religions who were very much getting trampled and destroyed by other religions before Uriel ascended, but it's difficult to justify afterwards, especially when one is talking about literally millions of worshippers. Greek, Roman, Babylonia, Assyrian, Hittite, Egyptian - these are all fine and good to be used as destroyed pantheons, but it's difficult to justify, say, Celtic Gods of Ireland who were wrapped back into the Celtic Church as Saints by St. Patrick of Ireland. [St. Bridgit comes immediately to mind.] I'm not sure what to do, except to wait for a 2nd edition. - - Em Current Quote: The lunatic, on the other hand, doesn't concern himself at all with logic; he works by short circuits. For him, everything proves everything else. The lunatic is all idee fixe, and whatever he comes across confirms his lunacy. You can tell him by the liberties he takes with common sense, by his flashes of inspiration, and by the fact that sooner or later he brings up the Templars. _Foucault's Pendulum_, Umberto Eco ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 12:39:47 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Malakim in their place On Mon, 21 Dec 1998, Anders Gabrielsson wrote: > > I don't think so. Ethnic cleansing is the systematic extermination of an > > identifiable group, just for being in that group. (More or less, anyway. > > It's 3 AM, and I could be thinking more clearly.) > > Ethnic cleansing doesn't necessarily require extermination - that's what > genocide is. Ethnic cleansing means getting rid of those who are members > of a certain ethnic group/not members of a certain ethnic group, by any > means necessary. The goal is to have an area free of that/those ethnic > group(s), as opposed to genocide, where the goal is killing them. Really? I thought it was just a fancy word for genocide. Hmmm... Yeah, by that definition, I guess it was ethnic cleansing. > > Uriel (IMO, anyway) didn't do that. He made war against a specific group > > of individuals who were in open defiance to God. (The argument that God > > in In Nomine may not be Creator and Ruler of all is moot. If God is, than > > Uriel was serving him. If God is not, then Uriel as still created to > > believe He was, and was acting based on what he knew.) The Ethereals were > > given the opportunity to obey the will of God, as interpreted by Uriel, > > and withdraw from the Corporeal realm. Those that complied were allowed > > to leave unmolested (the Australian Dreamtime spirits, for instance). > > Those that refused were then considered in open rebellion against God. > > War was declared, and those that stood and fought were slain. > > According to this description what Uriel did was ethnic cleansing. Point taken. [snip the Uriel/Ethereal dialogue] Now *that* was funny. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 16:04:41 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade Earl Wajenberg wrote 21 December 1998 >Anders Gabrielsson wrote: >> Hurm. If humans look to God, they'll look and look and don't get >> anything back until after they die, in canon. God doesn't take a >> direct hand in the life of His believers. His angels do it, from >> time to time, but the Big Guy Himself doesn't do anything. > >Sure He does -- every time anyone, human or celestial, rolls a 111. > (If you're being serious) So you think God intervenes in every 216 actions you make with the same degree that (s)he/it does for major players in the War, I personally don't. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 16:18:33 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Marc's name Joanna Hart wrote on 21 December 1998 >I'd associate the name Mark with Trade through St Mark, who was (and is) the >patron saint of Venice -- a city-state which built up a very powerful >trading empire in the Med which lasted for over 1000 years. That sounds right, because David's name means someting about beloved one - but taking the name of the David who stood up to Goliath make more sense Ramesh ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 16:14:00 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade Earl Wajenberg wrote on 21 December 1998 >Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: >> But one he DID hand down was "Worship no other gods before me." NO I DIDN'T, that was someone reponding to something I said, I would never say anything like that. Ramesh ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:01:58 -0500 (EST) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade - Historical Accuracy On Mon, 21 Dec 1998, Emily Dresner wrote: > Just because Constantine ended the Great Persecution with his ascent to > the throne of the Byzantine Empire, this did not make the Church > particularly stable, not even by the Nicae Council in 325 AD. At that > time, Constantine endorsed Christianity in a way to end much of the > pointless killing and religion murder which had been occuring for the last > 10 years. He wasn't so much a Christian [although legend has it he > converted on his death bed] as much as a man who knew that if he had less > racial hatred in his What happened to the rest of this sentence? > If one is going off of Uriel's ascention through Papal decree, then this > is confusing. The Papal state was not established until 751 AD, six years > later. I got around this problem in my game by fiddling with the dates. I had 745 AD be the approximate -start- of the Purification Crusade, with it ending at at 1000 AD. Not only is it a easy to remember date, the change of leadership and the change of the millennia compliment each other nicely. This also signals the end of the Dark Ages, which seem to fit Uriel's mindset to the proverbial 't', and the gradual yet subsequent decline of superstition and the rise of rationalism and the Renaissance. I also chose to have Eli go walkabout during this time, for similar reasons. > The pagan gods of Europe were doing just fine until Charlamange came > along. It looked to me like Uriel's Crusade is actually based on him, > where he killed the priests of the old gods and put into place the worship > of Christ. The problem with this is that he didn't rule until 800-814 AD. > [Christmas Day, 800AD in fact.] He had, previously, found the Huns, the Which now meshes wonderfully with my re-worked timeline, since Charlemagne's rise to power now occurs 55 years after the start of Purification. > One of the most obvious problems in the Marches sourcebook, the Aztec > civilization didn't exist yet. The capital of Tenochtitlan wasn't built > until the 12th century AD. This is from page 100 of the Marches, second > column: It works much better, in my opinion, if you map Uriel's Crusade over the spread of Monotheism. This means that Eurpose and the Middle East were the focal points of it, and places like India, China, and the Americas were basically untouched because Judaism/Christianity/Islam hadn't gotten there yet. I expect this was part of Uriel's plan: establish a beach-head, fortify it, then spread out in ever-widening circles. Note that we know next to nothing about Middle Eastern paganism, and as far as I know (please correct me if I'm wrong), there are no worshippers of Baal, Ashera, or other such deities extant in the world today. Once his base of operations was secure, Uriel spread out to Europe, Turkey, and maybe North Africa. He was cut off midway through that campaign, however, which is why many of the European and African deities still exist, albeit in a weakened state. I expect Russsia, India, and the rest of Asia was next on his list, with the Americas and Australia as wrap-up. > I'm not sure what to do, except to wait for a 2nd edition. Engage in wholesale Chainsaw Revisionism? ;) - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 18:14:03 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> Uriel's crusade Not to be un-politically correct or anything but... What if most of the pantheons worshipped by the post-crusade mortals were already extinct and only passed down through echoes, whispered folklore, or demons who were quick to jump into the gap that was left? This is a gameworld in which heaven and hell exist. Of course most idols could genuinely be just lumps of stone. Of course people are capable of inventing religions based on old folklore and imagery without 'creating' ethereals.. Ethereals are just parasites. Where the belief and potential for essence sacrifice exists, they will be drawn like flies to a dungheap. They're even worse than demons in that particular respect.... Yep. What if _every_ _single_ ethereal 'god' that arose after the purges was a lie? Maybe a few slipped through the gaps, but surely the ones who had survival instinct would be more cautious than to poke their noses out. Then imagine that frustration at seeing either some younger ethereal, or a demon actually taking _your_ place... jo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:21:11 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade - Historical Accuracy To start with, I agree wholeheartedly. Historical inaccuracies but me immensly. Having said that, I will now do a little song and dance in a desperate effort to fit canon in with fact. Behold! On Mon, 21 Dec 1998, Emily Dresner wrote: > The main passage I'm going to have quibble with is on page 92, first > column, which states: "The pagans have Rites for gaining Essence, some of > which are passed on to their mortal worshippers. Their major source of > Essence is their worshippers...." Ewww... I will not touch this. It is not my job. I have the Word of Apologia, not Line Editing. > If one is going off of Uriel's ascention through Papal decree, then this > is confusing. The Papal state was not established until 751 AD, six years > later. I don't think that Uriel's recall was due to Papal decree. I don't think Uriel would have cared much. It probably just sounded like a good date to use. > * Charlemange, and his Reformation: > > I can actually see some explainations for this, that Uriel was in the > midst of killing these last when he was dragged up to the Higher Heavens, > and their weakening meant that there was only 100 years of war with the > Germanic pagans instead of several hundreds. The problem with this comes > into explaining the reasoning for the Crusades, since by then the Germanic > hordes had warped Christ into some sort of strange Feudalistic Lord which > gave them orders to kill _along with_ their pagan Gods. So was there a > resurgance? Some change in the Marches yet unpublished? This all sounds reasonable, actually. The Purification Crusade had weakened them before Uriel's recall. Afterwards, even though the Tsayadim continued the Crusade, they were able to make a short-term comeback. > * The Norse Gods and the Vikings: > > The problem with all of the Norse references in the In Nomine literature > and the In Nomine history is that that the Vikings entered the European > Theater after 800AD - 1050AD, after Uriel had long since ended. . . . > The Norse Gods were not replaced by Christianity until well into the turn > of the millenia, when the new religion was beginning to be accepted in the > Nordic countries through conquest and through Europe striking back. > > So how Uriel killed a bunch of Gods who were receiving steady worship in a > suddenly explosive spread of the population of worshippers after he was > very much gone is a mystery. Again, it seems to be a case of Uriel and > his hordes being able to see into the future, and essence going to > destroyed Gods unspent. The problem is the worshippers, and the fact that > there were so many of them. The Tsayadim were (and are) still out there. Invoking my Word of Apologia, I will state that it was the Tsayadim that were able to kill the Norse gods. Uriel gets the credit due to mental laziness on the part of the narrator, and the fact that it was his Servitors who did it. > * The Aztecs, Mayans and other Mexican Civilizations: > > It's possible that Uriel's Crusade was continuing, but they obviously > didn't faire too well, as worship of old Gods from the Olmecs to the Mayan > Old Civilization to the Mayan New Civilization to the Aztecs seemed to > have done pretty well for the 1000 years it was in existence - long before > Uriel, and very definitely long afterwards. Invoking my Word again, the Crusade was still continuing. (See above.) It didn't fare as well against the the American gods, because the Tsayadim were not recieving as much support from Heaven as they had been previously. Furthermore, the ranks of the Tsayadim were beginning to split (as the Cult of Purity formed), reducing their effectiveness further. They still tired, but they just couldn't do it as well. > Thank God people are smart enough not to use sourcebooks as sources of > history, because this one is an almost painful read. Besides the fact > that pp 75-113 of the Marches are not particularly well written, they are > rife with not only religious inaccuracies, but historical anomalies and > some bits which are just incorrect. Agreed. Hopefully, my apologia works reasonably well. Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:30:11 EST From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade - Historical Accuracy In a message dated 12/21/98 8:21:05 AM, zenith@umich.edu writes: >_Sigh_ Anyway, the Marches doesn't make much sense. The Purification >Crusade is just fine for religions who were very much getting trampled and >destroyed by other religions before Uriel ascended, but it's difficult to >justify afterwards, especially when one is talking about literally >millions of worshippers. Greek, Roman, Babylonian, Assyrian, Hittite, >Egyptian - these are all fine and good to be used as destroyed pantheons, >but it's difficult to justify, say, Celtic Gods of Ireland who were >wrapped back into the Celtic Church as Saints by St. Patrick of Ireland. >[St. Bridgit comes immediately to mind.] > Umm... Em, you just did yourself what you accuse the writers of The Marches of doing. The Celtic Pantheon vs. the Celtic Church is one of the oddest stories in history, and St. Patrick had little or nothing to do with it. What most people don't know is that Patrick was sent by the Bishop of Rome to enforce a Roman-style hierarchy of bishops and parishes on a Celtic church which was based on a Druidic-style system of monasteries and communities. He failed miserably in that attempt, but he was very successful in converting rulers to Christianity (most of whom went straight to the Celtic style of worship). The St. Brigit (your spelling will vary) story is based on a real noblewoman who became an Abbess. Granted, she was named for the goddess, and she had many miracles attributed to her that were also part of the goddess' cult, but she *was* a historic figure. The other members of the Celtic pantheon who were 'folded in' were used as moral lessons by monks who had a love of words taken directly from their Druidic ancestors. More later, I suppose... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:37:33 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: IN> Celestial Interventions On Mon, 21 Dec 1998, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > >Sure He does -- every time anyone, human or celestial, rolls a 111. > > (If you're being serious) > So you think God intervenes in every 216 actions you make with the same > degree that (s)he/it does for major players in the War, I personally don't. I think He does intervene 1 time in every 216 actions, in In Nomine. so does Lucifer. It's just that most normal humans are not involved in major earth-shaking actions, so they don't recieve major interventions. Just little ones ("Oh my God! I thought for certain that I'd _failed_ that test!" or "My check bounced!? I thought I could cover it!"). On a related note, I have a question about interventions. What happens to an Outcast angel who rolls a divine intervention? Is it beneficial or dangerous? Richard Gant - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my web page: Richard Gant's Gaming Ghetto Currently dedicated to In Nomine, Planescape, and Waste World - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:47:50 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Uriel's Crusade - Historical Accuracy > > Just because Constantine ended the Great Persecution with his ascent to > > the throne of the Byzantine Empire, this did not make the Church > > particularly stable, not even by the Nicae Council in 325 AD. At that > > time, Constantine endorsed Christianity in a way to end much of the > > pointless killing and religion murder which had been occuring for the last > > 10 years. He wasn't so much a Christian [although legend has it he > > converted on his death bed] as much as a man who knew that if he had less > > racial hatred in his > > What happened to the rest of this sentence? My brain cut out. I'm dead serious. It happens. Every once in a while I'm talking and I just sit there and go, "What the hell was I talking about?" Let's see if I can finish my thought. :) "He wasn't so much a Christian, as much as a man who knew the value of unity, and knew that if he reduced the racial hatred under his rule, his country would be prosperous. Which it was." Better? > I got around this problem in my game by fiddling with the dates. I had > 745 AD be the approximate -start- of the Purification Crusade, with it > ending at at 1000 AD. Not only is it a easy to remember date, the change > of leadership and the change of the millennia compliment each other nicely. > This also signals the end of the Dark Ages, which seem to fit Uriel's > mindset to the proverbial 't', and the gradual yet subsequent decline of > superstition and the rise of rationalism and the Renaissance. > > I also chose to have Eli go walkabout during this time, for similar reasons. Now, if you have it start at that time, or maybe a few hundred years earlier, and coax on through the 12th century, you can catch 90% of the religions on the planet instead of about 45% of them, get the Crusades, and the start of the Spanish Inquisition. It fixes dozens of problems with history and the canon, and makes things work a little better. So my compromise is where my Witchcraft and Demonology of Ireland book starts, which are documented Inquisition cases - 1117AD, and catches everyone right with their pants down. > It works much better, in my opinion, if you map Uriel's Crusade over the > spread of Monotheism. This means that Eurpose and the Middle East were > the focal points of it, and places like India, China, and the Americas were > basically untouched because Judaism/Christianity/Islam hadn't gotten > there yet. I expect this was part of Uriel's plan: establish a beach-head, > fortify it, then spread out in ever-widening circles. Note that we know > next to nothing about Middle Eastern paganism, and as far as I know > (please correct me if I'm wrong), there are no worshippers of Baal, Ashera, > or other such deities extant in the world today. Once his base of > operations was secure, Uriel spread out to Europe, Turkey, and maybe > North Africa. He was cut off midway through that campaign, however, which > is why many of the European and African deities still exist, albeit in a > weakened state. I expect Russsia, India, and the rest of Asia was next on > his list, with the Americas and Australia as wrap-up. Nope, you're right, you're logical, and I totally buy this with the shift in year. I would also put his beachhead right square on Constantinople, since although Paul preached Christianity from Rome and was crucified there, Justinian made that city the spiritual original heart of the new religion until the Popes started excommunicating each other. The thing is, even a little bit of looking around the net for historical accuracy on Christianity would have brought any sane person to this exact same pattern of attack for Uriel. > > > I'm not sure what to do, except to wait for a 2nd edition. > > Engage in wholesale Chainsaw Revisionism? ;) Oh, hell yes. Of all the "lack of research" gripes, this section of the Marches tops the list, swiftly followed by the history section of the APG. It needs to be wholesale chucked and rewritten. - - Em Current Quote: The lunatic, on the other hand, doesn't concern himself at all with logic; he works by short circuits. For him, everything proves everything else. The lunatic is all idee fixe, and whatever he comes across confirms his lunacy. You can tell him by the liberties he takes with common sense, by his flashes of inspiration, and by the fact that sooner or later he brings up the Templars. _Foucault's Pendulum_, Umberto Eco ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1064 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.