From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Fri Dec 25 10:59:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (majordom@lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA08765 for ; Fri, 25 Dec 1998 10:59:58 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) id KAA10264 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 25 Dec 1998 10:46:16 -0600 Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 10:46:16 -0600 Message-Id: <199812251646.KAA10264@lists.io.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lists.io.com: majordom set sender to owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com using -f From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #1069 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, December 25 1998 Volume 01 : Number 1069 In this digest: Re: IN> Faith Re: IN> Faith IN> the bile guy! Re: IN> Faith IN> Re: Impudites IN> Casca's Faith idea Re: IN> Liber Canticorum (Can there be spoilers? These might be then.) Re: IN> Liber Canticorum (Can there be spoilers? These might be then.) Re: IN> Faith Re: IN> Liber Canticorum (Can there be spoilers? These might be then.) IN> nybbas ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 02:13:42 EST From: BillionSix@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Faith In a message dated 12/24/98 1:08:00 AM Central Standard Time, jhart@btinternet.com writes: > >The bennies come from within, otherwise it's not Faith. It might as well > >just be a new kind of attunement. > > > If it comes from within then I'd say it was willpower. > > > jo > Humans can have toughness, too. Is that a gift from God? If it comes from within you might as well call it Strength. I think the point of Faith is to create a natural human balancing factor. Something that makes human a bit less of the physical cannon fodder and spiritual poker chips that they are. Brian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 05:44:33 -0500 (EST) From: Eslin Subject: Re: IN> Faith On Thu, 24 Dec 1998, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > BTW are there any persuasion type skills which actually relates to a > persons ability to persuade someone of an idea in the long term, since Fast > talk described as getting someone to " "bend the rules just this once" " (I > quoting something which is already is quote marks), or would that kind of > thing come entirely down to roleplaying. There's 'Lying'. Hopefully, this would also be roleplayed, but... ;) Yes, 'Lying' is in the main book. Yes, it's a page or two on from Fast Talk. Really, Ramesh, it's a heck of a lot easier to turn the page than it is to send it out on the list. :) *ducking the flying banana creme pies* - eslin@buffnet.net / chephirah@fiat.justitia ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 02:48:56 PST From: "Martin Arnold" Subject: IN> the bile guy! Hmm, i hope that's not how hostory will remember me! ~g~ To finish this thread off... "In the case of the tether book, having read the playtest (ie. it may have changed since then) I'd say it probably is worth coughing up for if you're planning on having seneschal PCs, a heavily tether-based game, or really want some detailed mechanics for tether creation/ destruction/ use and some ideas for what sort of tethers each superior might have." This is all i really wanted to know, as regards the London/tetherbook thingy! If only SJG had said this at least (doesnt spoil anything does it? doesnt mean i get a freebie does it?)! (So thanks Jo!) NOW...i'm still curious about force-levels for ranked characters (which does inlcude seneschals, but maybe i'll put that to one side since the rankings could cover that as well). Im anxious to get an asnwer on this because i have no given yardstick to do it myself! THAT's the problem; i have no difficulty cobbling togtether rules for my own campaigns (hey well all do that), but how do i work out these levels for NPC's in my campaign. DOes anybody have any info? (not just SJG of course) Okay (takes cloth wipes the slate until he can see his face in it!), let's start again! PS I DO wish evryone season's greetings, etc, even you Dave! ~g~ Marnie :-) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 15:31:30 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Faith - -----Original Message----- From: Eslin To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Date: 24 December 1998 11:04 Subject: Re: IN> Faith >On Thu, 24 Dec 1998, Ramesh Satkurunath wrote: > >> BTW are there any persuasion type skills which actually relates to a >> persons ability to persuade someone of an idea in the long term, since Fast >> talk described as getting someone to " "bend the rules just this once" " (I >> quoting something which is already is quote marks), or would that kind of >> thing come entirely down to roleplaying. > > There's 'Lying'. No (I had seen it, I intended the charcacter to persuade through reason, but without lying), I meant skills people had made up themsleves or they'd seen on the newt somewhere. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 11:16:53 -0500 From: neel@cswv.com (Neel Krishnaswami) Subject: IN> Re: Impudites Joanna Hart wrote: > >In general I agree with Kevin about attributes over 9, but with an >Impudite you just have to give it higher willpower if you want it to have >even a remote chance of success with its resonance. I have an Impudite in my campaign who has a theory why his resonance never works. Let's quote him: "We all began as angels, tasked with guiding the society of God's children into some semblance of order. But as it happens, their stupidity, ignorance and total lack of style are sufficient to defeat even the political prowess of the greatest Mercurians. After a few centuries of rescuing people from the frying pan only to see them willfully leap into the fire, you get frustrated. Frustrated enough to shout, frustrated enough to scream, frustrated enough to do anything just to crack the shell of their self- absorption even for a minute. "That's what an Impudite is, really -- someone who gave up Heaven for a chance to shout Cassandra's warnings. In our secret hearts we hope that just this once someone will listen to us, and there won't be a calamity. We're wrong, of course. Even God Himself, when He was the voice in the whirlwind, couldn't break through to make Job understand. "And eventually, we get jaded. If they won't listen, why should we bother? I mean, if it's all going to go to Hell anyway, why do anything but look good and travel with style, all the way down?" (Self-indulgent cheap philosophizing seems to be an occupational hazard of being an Impudite, it seems. :) - -- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@cswv.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 11:06:06 -0600 From: "Gary Hardman" Subject: IN> Casca's Faith idea This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BE2F2D.670EA780 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Casca helpfully suggested: [A hybrid stat like Charisma or Toughness, Faith is bought like a skill, = but its only purpose is to add to the Will of its possessor when=20 attempting to resist infernal attunements, songs or resonance. This=20 'spiritual toughness' costs 4 points per level and can only be bought by = humans. At GM discretion, Faith adds may be applied to Perception to see = Celestial forms. At GM whim, this stat might be bought by soldiers of Hell.] I like. Perhaps, to let folks like Hellsworn and Sorcerers get in on the game, = we could swipe from Ars Magica and have both Faith and Confidence. = Mechanically their effects are identical, but the name makes clear the = object of the strong belief. In IN, Confidence would have a slight = hellish tinge, and be more common in Sorcerers and Hellsworn, because of = the whole selfishness/selflessness thing. Or, to borrow from an already existing IN convention, Faith (or some = alternate, neutral name) could be treated like Charisma, and given a = descriptive qualifier. One human might have Faith (self-confidence) = while another has Faith (God) or even Faith (Islam). All the different = forms would work the same mechanically, but the roleplaying aspects = would be different, and the GM could take the form of Faith into = consideration when adjudicating its use. I like your idea. It fits, and overcomes what I've seen as a = significant mechanical flaw in the game, while only adding to the = mythological/theological atmosphere. What think you of my suggested = modifications? Stacy Stroud sstroud@uky.campus.mci.net - ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BE2F2D.670EA780 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Casca helpfully = suggested:
 
[A hybrid stat like Charisma or = Toughness, Faith=20 is bought like a skill,
but its only purpose is to add to the Will = of its=20 possessor when
attempting to resist infernal attunements, songs or=20 resonance. This
'spiritual toughness' costs 4 points per level and = can only=20 be bought by
humans. At GM discretion, Faith adds may be applied to=20 Perception to see
Celestial forms.

At GM whim, this stat = might be=20 bought by soldiers of Hell.]
 
I like.
 
Perhaps, to let folks like Hellsworn = and=20 Sorcerers get in on the game, we could swipe from Ars Magica and have = both Faith=20 and Confidence.  Mechanically their effects are identical, but the = name=20 makes clear the object of the strong belief.  In IN, Confidence = would have=20 a slight hellish tinge, and be more common in Sorcerers and Hellsworn, = because=20 of the whole selfishness/selflessness thing.
 
Or, to borrow from an already = existing IN=20 convention, Faith (or some alternate, neutral name) could be treated = like=20 Charisma, and given a descriptive qualifier.  One human might have = Faith=20 (self-confidence) while another has Faith (God) or even Faith = (Islam).  All=20 the different forms would work the same mechanically, but the = roleplaying=20 aspects would be different, and the GM could take the form of Faith into = consideration when adjudicating its use.
 
I like your idea.  It fits, and = overcomes=20 what I've seen as a significant mechanical flaw in the game, while only = adding=20 to the mythological/theological atmosphere.  What think you of my = suggested=20 modifications?
 
 
Stacy Stroud
sstroud@uky.campus.mci.net
- ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BE2F2D.670EA780-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 16:56:42 -0800 From: Sean McCarthy Subject: Re: IN> Liber Canticorum (Can there be spoilers? These might be then.) The Songbook of much fame makes me very happy. It's what I had hoped it would be, in spades. A few questions came to mind (they always do) but when I woke up this morning and it was Christmas (I work graveyard, so Christmas will in fact arrive before I go to sleep) I couldn't remember most. So there's just one... The Song of Ice, I think it was, Celestial version, gives a bonus to those with the word of 'the Waters'. Isn't it the case, however, that the holder of that word has passed on, snuffed it, ceased to be, is an ex-superior? If I recall correctly, it raises an interesting issue. If your Superior is in a state where if they weren't nailed to their throne, they'd be pushing up Symphonic daisies, you no longer count as a Servitor of X, right? So would anyone get a bonus? If former Servitors could, what key factor allows those bound to another Word to gain the benefit of the dead one? A legacy attunement? Not a legacy Rite, since those are useless when the Superior has shuffled off the immortal coil, right? It isn't that I think there's an error or contradiction here. Just that at least, it's useful trivia for a historical game, or if a new being gets the same Word. At best, it's opened a whole new line of intriguing debate...or maybe it's explained clearly in the book and I didn't read it as thoroughly as I thought. Sean ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 03:43:04 -0000 From: "Ramesh Satkurunath" Subject: Re: IN> Liber Canticorum (Can there be spoilers? These might be then.) Sean McCarthy wrote on 25 December 1998 01:11 >Isn't it the case, however, that the holder >of that word has passed on, snuffed it, ceased to be, is an ex-superior? Now that's what I call a dead Superior. > If your Superior is in a state where if they weren't nailed to their >throne, they'd be pushing up Symphonic daisies, you no longer count as a >Servitor of X, right? So would anyone get a bonus? If former Servitors >could, what key factor allows those bound to another Word to gain the >benefit of the dead one? A legacy attunement? Not a legacy Rite, since >those are useless when the Superior has shuffled off the immortal coil, right? IIRC in either APG or IPG it mentions that when a Superior dies their servitors are head hunted because of their unique abilities (I can't remember which one it is or where it says it - I would check but I've leant out APG to a friend [MUST GET BACK!!] and IPG has done a walk about .... Aha, just found IPG!!! IPG (p 94 Under Orphans) "When a Prince dies , things are a little more chaotic. Anyone holding *any* boon from dying (I think the word "the" should be here) Prince will feel the change as his Word reels and and his Rites cease to work. Orphans are usually allowed to keep their dead Prince's attunements and distinctions when they take service with a new Superior. In fact, any truly unique and useful attunement granted by a dead Prince will become valuable, since he's not around to grant them to anyone else. This makes their holders valuable and sought after, even by former foes." I can't be sure what APG says but I assume it's much the same beacause they're pretty identical (not a jibe, it's actually useful). Have a Cool Today Ramesh ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 11:51:37 -0500 From: Frank Lazar Subject: Re: IN> Faith At 11:48 AM -0500 12/23/1998, Casca wrote: >some time), but some points invested in Faith help Joe Holy resist >infernal corruption without making him break the average human mold. > That and help from the great goddess Yamara. :) - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | _ | | We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers. /_\ | | We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, // \\ | | Crystal and scanner, holographic demons, \\ //___\\ | | And invocations of equations. \\ // \\ | | \\__// \\ | | These are the tools we employ. And we know... many things. \\ | | \\ | | | Frank Lazar http://www.concentric.net/~fmlazar | \\ | - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 21:18:00 -0800 From: Sean McCarthy Subject: Re: IN> Liber Canticorum (Can there be spoilers? These might be then.) At 03:43 AM 12/25/98 -0000, you wrote: >"When a Prince dies , things are a little more chaotic. Anyone >holding *any* boon from dying (I think the word "the" should be here) >Prince will feel the change as his Word reels and and his Rites cease to >work. >Orphans are usually allowed to keep their dead Prince's attunements and >distinctions when they take service with a new Superior. In fact, any >truly unique and useful attunement granted by a dead Prince will become >valuable, since he's not around to grant them to anyone else. This makes >their holders valuable and sought after, even by former foes." Merry Christmas, Joyous Erastide, Happy Duck Day, etc etc everyone, by the way. Okay, here's what I'm getting at. I know they keep attunements and lose rites. But they don't really Serve The Word anymore, do they? It's speculated, for example, that if Uriel were really dead, the Tsayadim or maybe even the Malakim could Fall. This would be because Uriel Word would no longer protect them. So if you don't really Serve The Word after the Superior takes a dirtnap, would you lose your bonus with this song? I know it's a petty point, but I think from an in-game theological point of view and also as a rules debate, it's interesting. It implies some really intriguing things. Sean ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 08:42:02 PST From: "Martin Arnold" Subject: IN> nybbas Nybbas; Demon Prince of the Media Media 2 (usu. prec. by the) the main means of mass communication (esp. newspapers and broadcasting) regarded collectively. Nybbas is bored; or rather gets bored very easily. He knows the drudgery of Hell all too well. He served under Vapula for years without gratitude or acknowledgement. And that was all he wanted someone to appreciate his worth. But now his attention span is minimal like television whose audiences he controls. Without this drive to remain on the edge, without pushing the boundaries (and the ratings further) the boredom - frustration that barely masks the empty realisation of what his life is as a demon - begins to set in. It is very hard serving Nybbas because no one can understand how he feels; he is never really himself, that is he is never really honest (as much as a demon can be). Those in whom he might confide will find an endless series of acts, like the performer who is always 'on'. Nybbas has no identity of his own, and that is what he is forever after. This is not to say Nybbas is not evil or malicious; he was raised under Lucifer's tutelage like all the infernals; how could he be otherwise? His pitiful toil under Vapula, endless getting nowhere and always being pushed around by the more charismatic and powerful servants took their toll on Nybbas. His maliciousness is carefully honed and refined. Revenge is a major force n Nybbas' dreams, but it is much more than a simple basic vengeance. Nybbas wants to show them all, once and for all, that he is 'someone'. To him, world (or universal) conquest or merely temporal, childish gains; it's one's own soul that is, in the end, the only battlefield. He who knows himself knows everything, and is therefore victorious. Or some such marketing slogan. His invention (which would have arrived sooner on earth had it not been for those above him trying to manipulate and steal his ideas. He had to work by himself with little or nothing in order to safeguard his ideas), television, has forever changed the face of the world - even in Hell. When victory came, with a Princedom, Nybbas thought he had realised his dreams - that he would finally be 'happy'. When that did not come, when the emptiness began to creep in with the self-doubt ('can I rule in hell?' 'so now I'm royalty, so what?'), Nybbas made plans. This is the essence of Nybbas; he plans and schemes, often working harder than many other Princes, pushing the boundaries by pushing back the emptiness. The world of television is shallow and as unfulfilling as Nybbas feels himself. At his command is perhaps the most powerful force on earth and yet it has no soul, no meaning. He keeps on pushing; enslaving the human race under the banner of emptyvee isn't enough because it's a finite end and the fear only comes back with a searing 'so what now?' Nybbas is cruel because he sees no value in those who work for him or with him. Everything mirrors what and how he feels - if indeed he does feel. He doesn't know love, for instance (assuming a demon could ever love), as anything other than a slogan or media concept. He lives vicariously, but never truly feeling properly. He is the emotional equivalent of a serial killer. He would only know love by watching it on TV, and that has become his reality. Even the static and the snow after Closedown are more welcome than the emptiness. We can all thank hell's newest Prince for the advent of 24-hour broadcasting. In fact the whole non-stop, modern lifestyle is an expression of Nybbas through and through. Priorities As previously stated, such limited aims as total domination are fine for a power like Saminga, but not for Nybbas. While he is paranoid in his dealings with others, especially powerful beings such as the Princes, he thrives on this because it too helps keep the emptiness at bay. So Nybbas will continue to broaden his power base, and it may well seem as though domination and control are important parts of the Media's plans. Nybbas' main priority is the continued pushing of 'the edge' (very much like the typical William Gibson 'netsurfer' character in fact), all in search of himself. Those who can't keep up are mercilessly tossed aside. Competition is a buzzword in Nybbas army (come to think of it, so is buzzword!), those who are in the spotlight are treated like royalty (as Nybbas gets off on how they feel then), but are always keeping one eye on their back with another on the second had that ticks away their fifteen minutes! Of one thing you can be sure of in Perdition, nothing lasts forever. (An eternity spent in Perdition is not Nybbas' idea of heaven!) New Servitor Attunements (the fun stuff ;-) ) Queens Speech (So called because EVERYONE watches this show and I'm writing this on Christmas Day! But if you are not English: Superbowl Sunday!) With the expenditure of Essence (see below) a demon of the Media can cause a programme to broadcast at the prearranged time to be watched by EVERYONE in the target audience. The cost depends on the chosen time for the broadcast coupled with how soon that time will be. For example changing the scheduling of tomorrow's Superbowl will be a damn sight more difficult than changing an advert set for 3 am Monday morning three months after!) Demographic By spending a point of Essence and making a Perception check, the demon can realise the consumer habits of a selected person; i.e. what he likes to watch, read, what his hobbies are, how often he spends his money and how much he earns etc. Use the Check Digit as a guideline to determine how much is revealed. Two For The Price Of One The demon may use this power to help him in his efforts to say the opinions of a target. By spending a point of essence and giving the poor soul a material object he may reduce the target number of any immediate skill checks made to persuade or convince. This is cumulative, but the GM may rule that the essence cost - per TN reduction - is raised if the demon hands the target something he has no interest in (handing a copy of Loaded to a feminist writer is a good example) Democracy This power permits the demon to convince his target that he should change his mind and go with the majority (there must be a majority to speak of, obviously!). By spending a point of essence and making a successful Will roll, the demon can force the target to change his mind 'for the best'. New Rite * change your mind and clothing by next sunset +1 essence. (Does that make sense?) Optional Rule: Dissonance (Not sure whether I want to change what's written in the book here, but this is another idea to play with...) Given that Nybbas is always 'on the edge' it is dissonant for any of his servitors to refuse to adopt any new fad or fashion (as part of their role) in preference of an old or current one. I don't just mean material things either as trends; these can include new ways of thinking and speaking as well! So, now you know what's behind the shades...nothing, absolutely nothing at all. (Please criticise me this is in no way complete, and i guess turnabout is fair play! :-) ) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #1069 ******************************** The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.